Blood atonement - our Lord Jesus Christ

[Gary]

Blood atonement

Some skeptics and non-believers on these forums have already questioned the fact that Jesus is the blood atonement required by God for sin and forgiveness.

Is the shedding of blood central to atonement in the OT?

"...the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness" (Hebrews 9:22)

As that right?

The first passover

On the eve of Israel's departure from Egypt, it was the blood of the Passover (pesach) lamb, put on the two doorposts and lintel of the house, was a sign to the destroying angel. (Exodus 12:13). The commandment was explicit and detailed. Read Exodus 12:21-23

During the first Passover, only the blood of the sacrificial lamb separated between life and death.

Sealing the covenant

The sealing of the covenant between God and the people of Israel was sealed by blood. Read Exodus 24:5-8

Moses sprinkled the blood on the people, demonstrating that this divine covenant had been formalized and finalized by the shedding of blood.

The priests and the altar

Sacrifices were offered to the Lord to make atonement (Exodus 29:33) and the blood of those sacrifices was used in the ritual in which the priests and the altar were set apart for divine service. Read Exodus 29:20

There is a lot more...

Anyone interested in this study?



Source: taken from "Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus - Theological Objections (Volume Two)" by Michael Brown

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[D46]

Jesus Christ was the all sufficient, self sacrficial Lamb that shed his blood for us.

Genesis 22:8 (KJV) And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

and again...Hebrews 9:22 (KJV) And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Hebrews 10:4 (KJV) For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

The sacraficing of bulls, goats, and rams was done away with as it provided only temporal atonement but the once for all sacrafice that Christ made on the cross was done once for all time. He does not have to be sacraficed again, and again.

Hebrews 10:10 (KJV) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 9:28 (KJV) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

This idea is repeated here because it was very important to be clearly understood, in order to show the contrast between the offering made by Christ, and those made under the law. The object of the apostle is to exalt the sacrifice made by him above those made by the Jewish high priests. This he does by showing that such was the efficacy of the atonement made by him that it did not need to be repeated; the sacrifices made by them, however, were to be renewed every year.

I think it behooves every Christian to understand all this and do a study of the Old Testament sacrafices in comparison to Christ as our sacrafice in the New Testament. Some may have not grasped these precious truth. Do you have a link?

 

[einstein]

blood atonement

Hashem says explicitly in the Hebrew Bible not to add or diminish from the precepts or commandments in His Torah. (Deut 4:2 and 12:32). Christians can hold any belief they want about the blood sacrifice of Jesus but they should understand that such belief most certainly contradicts what Hashem has commanded of Israel as stated above.


Two major questions to be addressed in regards to this belief are 1) the appropriateness or suitability of Jesus and the way he died for the remissions of sins and 2) the need for blood for the atonement of sin.

wrt #1 I would bring the following 2 items for your consideration before going on to other objections.

The Levitical Law of Sacrifice says the animal must be slaughtered by the person who is offering it: BUT the GT says that Jesus was crucified by Roman soldiers. ie invalid.

The Levitial Law of Sacrifice says that some of blood had to be rubbed by the priest with his finger on the horns of the altar in the Temple, and the rest had to be poured out at the foot of the altar. Furthermore that fat had to be taken out and burned: BUT the GT does not state what was done to the blood of Jesus and according to Jn 19:33-34 once Jesus was stabbed in the side indicating his death, there was no action removing the fat and burning it on the Temple altar. ie invalid.

You might state these details are unimportant. It's the spirit of the sacrifice that counts. However, these details were important as part of Hashem's commandments and to sweep them aside is contradictory to His commands as given in Deut. Furthermore this same spirit of sacrifice of a god or demigod can be found in virtually all preChristian pagan mystery religions and can hardly be viewed as unique or novel. More objections to come but feel free to address the first two.

 

[D46]

Your theology is full of holes...no contradiction of God's word with the atoning death of Jesus Christ our Saviour. Nothing is being added to or taken away at all, only the fulfillment of the prophesied Messiah from the Old Testament itself. In case you missed it, we're not under the law but under the dispensation of Grace by faith in Jesus Christ, the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Joh 3:36 (KJV) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Do you live by the Levitical laws or the 600+ Mosaic laws? Do you pick up sticks on Sunday? If you break one of these laws, you've broken them all as one is as bad as the other. There is no grace for those that follow the law as Christ made it null and void when he was nailed to the cross.

Galatians 3:10-13 (KJV) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Galatians 5:4 (KJV) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Rome did indeed crucify the Lord-he was turned over to the secular powers...but who instigated his crucifixion?

Acts 2:36 (KJV) Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Peter was talking to the Jews and convicted them where they stood for crucifying the King of Glory as the Word plainly shows.

 

[einstein]

I disagree. It is YOUR theology based on Paul that is full of holes. It's your choice, though. You go on believing Paul, that the law is null and void and all that is required is faith in Jesus. I choose to believe what Hashem has stated and communicated through the greatest of prophets, Moses; the law is eternal.

Psalm 111:7-9: The works of His hands are truth and justice: all His commandments are faithful. Steadfast forever made in truth and unrightness. He sent redemption to His people; He commanded Hiss covenant forever His name is hole and awesome.

This is just one passage. There are many others throughout the Hebrew Bible. If, as a Christian you accept the Hebrew Bible as Hashem's word or at least the inspired word through his messengers, then you must accept the principle of the eternity of Torah. In that case, please refute on logical and consistent grounds the 2 objections posted to date. If, on the other hand, you choose to dismiss the Tanach and abide by what Paul teaches, you will find it easy to dismiss the 2 objections and any others I will be posting shortly.

If you choose the latter way, all I ask is don't tell me my theology is full of holes. It's just that my theology is internally consistent with the Tanach, while yours in simply unJewish.

BTW, if you believe as Paul instructs that the law is now invalid, please also explain Mat5:19 which states that whosoever breaks one of the least of the commandments and teaches others to do so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. Doesn't this suggest that Paul will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven, for doing exactly that?

 

[Solo]

I disagree. It is YOUR theology based on Paul that is full of holes. It's your choice, though. You go on believing Paul, that the law is null and void and all that is required is faith in Jesus. I choose to believe what Hashem has stated and communicated through the greatest of prophets, Moses; the law is eternal.

Psalm 111:7-9: The works of His hands are truth and justice: all His commandments are faithful. Steadfast forever made in truth and unrightness. He sent redemption to His people; He commanded Hiss covenant forever His name is hole and awesome.

This is just one passage. There are many others throughout the Hebrew Bible. If, as a Christian you accept the Hebrew Bible as Hashem's word or at least the inspired word through his messengers, then you must accept the principle of the eternity of Torah. In that case, please refute on logical and consistent grounds the 2 objections posted to date. If, on the other hand, you choose to dismiss the Tanach and abide by what Paul teaches, you will find it easy to dismiss the 2 objections and any others I will be posting shortly.

If you choose the latter way, all I ask is don't tell me my theology is full of holes. It's just that my theology is internally consistent with the Tanach, while yours in simply unJewish.

BTW, if you believe as Paul instructs that the law is now invalid, please also explain Mat5:19 which states that whosoever breaks one of the least of the commandments and teaches others to do so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. Doesn't this suggest that Paul will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven, for doing exactly that?

The Law is eternal, you just can not keep it. Jesus did, and it is in him whom believers abide, and it is through his works that believers are saved from this sesspool called the world.

PS With a name like einstein, I would have figured you would be smart enough to recognize that Jesus is God and it is through him that man will be saved.

 

[einstein]

here are 2 more objections re the suitability of Jesus' sacrifice vis-a-vis the stipulations of Hashem as explicitly stated in the Tanach.

According to the GT, Jesus was scourged and beaten prior to his execution, but the Torah states that any sacrifical animal must be without a physical blemish. In fact since Jesus would have been circumcised on the eighth day following his birth, this in itself would have constitued a physical blemish and eliminated him as a sacrifice. (Invalid)

According to John, Jesus is "the lamb of God" whose bones cannot be broken ( a reference to the Paschal lamb of the Jewish Passover). However, the Tanach clearly states that the Paschal lamb be not offered for the removal of sins. It was to be a festive or commemorative offering. Additionally, a more appropriate time for a sacrifical sin offering both individually and communally would have been on Yom Kippur, the Day of
Atonement as per Num 29:11 and Lev 16:15, not on Passover. (Invalid)

 

[Solo]

here are 2 more objections re the suitability of Jesus' sacrifice vis-a-vis the stipulations of Hashem as explicitly stated in the Tanach.

According to the GT, Jesus was scourged and beaten prior to his execution, but the Torah states that any sacrifical animal must be without a physical blemish. In fact since Jesus would have been circumcised on the eighth day following his birth, this in itself would have constitued a physical blemish and eliminated him as a sacrifice. (Invalid)

According to John, Jesus is "the lamb of God" whose bones cannot be broken ( a reference to the Paschal lamb of the Jewish Passover). However, the Tanach clearly states that the Paschal lamb be not offered for the removal of sins. It was to be a festive or commemorative offering. Additionally, a more appropriate time for a sacrifical sin offering both individually and communally would have been on Yom Kippur, the Day of
Atonement as per Num 29:11 and Lev 16:15, not on Passover. (Invalid)

: : : : :

 

[einstein]

PS With a name like einstein, I would have figured you would be smart enough to recognize that Jesus is God and it is through him that man will be saved.[/quote]

You really are getting off topic. Most Christians I have spoken with do not believe that Jesus is God, so why would you question my intelligence? There are many passages within the Tanach and the GT which can be used to refute your belief, so before going on with other objections to J's sacrifice, please provide your proof that Jesus is God.

 

[Solo]

PS With a name like einstein, I would have figured you would be smart enough to recognize that Jesus is God and it is through him that man will be saved.

You really are getting off topic. Most Christians I have spoken with do not believe that Jesus is God, so why would you question my intelligence? There are many passages within the Tanach and the GT which can be used to refute your belief, so before going on with other objections to J's sacrifice, please provide your proof that Jesus is God.

Those who claim to be Christian and do not know Jesus as God are only Christians in name only, and do not know Jesus Christ. Many false Christs made up in the minds of men lead many astray. Actually you are right, intelligence has nothing to do with coming to know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Hopefully you won't let your intelligence get in the way. :D

 

[D46]

einstein-You need to go one verse below Matthew 5:19 you posted...

Matthew 5:20 (KJV) For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Their righteousness consisted in outward observances of the ceremonial and traditional law. They offered sacrifices, fasted often, prayed much, were very punctilious about ablutions and tithes and the ceremonies of religion, but neglected justice, truth, purity, holiness of heart, and did not strive to be pure in their motives before God. See Mt 23:1; 13:1-33

The Apostle Paul could reduce your theology to a bowl of oatmeal so, don't go there. The scribes and Pharisees were hypocrits...read what Jesus had to say about them in Matthew 23..."Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! "

 

[Solo]

einstein-You need to go one verse below Matthew 5:19 you posted...

Matthew 5:20 (KJV) For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Their righteousness consisted in outward observances of the ceremonial and traditional law. They offered sacrifices, fasted often, prayed much, were very punctilious about ablutions and tithes and the ceremonies of religion, but neglected justice, truth, purity, holiness of heart, and did not strive to be pure in their motives before God. See Mt 23:1; 13:1-33

The Apostle Paul could reduce your theology to a bowl of oatmeal so, don't go there.

Hey, there isn't anything wrong with oatmeal! :wink:

 

[D46]

Hey, there isn't anything wrong with oatmeal!

You're right!! Have it everyday for cholesterol problems (with brown sugar of course). I can almost feel I've been in Galatia with every bite. :-D

 

[Soma-Sight]

Jesus saved not only man by His sacrifice..... He was an animal rights activist!

Think about all the livestock that got to live since Jesus took their place!!!! lol.... :

 

[einstein]

In order to debate any issue logically it is necessary to determine whether those on opposite sides of the discussion share any common ground. If that can be established then one can develop one's divergent position and hopefully debate with sound proofs or evidence.

I enter these discussions with the assumption that believing Christians and Jews share a common belief and acceptance of the truth and divine origins of the Tanach, what Christians often refer to as the OT. IF my assumption is incorrect please post within this thread and let me know.

 

[D46]

In order to debate any issue logically it is necessary to determine whether those on opposite sides of the discussion share any common ground. If that can be established then one can develop one's divergent position and hopefully debate with sound proofs or evidence.

I enter these discussions with the assumption that believing Christians and Jews share a common belief and acceptance of the truth and divine origins of the Tanach, what Christians often refer to as the OT. IF my assumption is incorrect please post within this thread and let me know.

I have absolutely nothing in common with anyone who does not believe in the sacraficial, substitutionary death of Jesus Christ on the cross who paid the price for the sins of the world...God incarnate to bleed and die for the likes of someone like me and you. He took my place that day and nothing in this world any of us can ever do to repay that debt- a debt He didn't owe. No commonality at all with anyone who holds a contrary belief.

 

[Solo]

A child of God or a child of the devil is determined by the price that Jesus paid and who has been given this free gift. Those of Jewish background have a great legacy to be proud of, and they also have a decision to make as do all Jews and Gentiles. Who is Jesus? The answer dictates who is a child of God, or a child of the devil.

 

[einstein]

Your responses speak volumes and are reflective of those who are unable to reason, think logically and are in essence, "brain dead" to any rational discussion of these issues.

Although, there are many other reasons why Jesus' death on the cross is not a valid sacrifice according to God's own laws as stipulated in the Hebrew Bible, I will end this thread with one further problem for you to ponder.

According to the GT, God's "only begotten son" died on the cross to expiate the sins of mankind, and all who accept this belief are "saved" (Rom 5:8-11)

HOWEVER, the Hebrew Bible strictly forbids human vicarious atonement and specifies that everyone is responsible for his/her own sins.

Deut24:16 Fathers shall not be put to death because of children, not shall children be put to death for fathers; each person shall be put to death for his own sin.

There are other supporting passages such as Num35:33.

In other words, the concept of human vicarious atonement, goes against God's commandments as stipulated in the Hebrew Bible.

But, oops, I forgot you do not share this common belief in God's words as stipulated in the Tanach. Just another false belief from the devil and those blind Jews. :D

 

[Gary]

.....In other words, the concept of human vicarious atonement, goes against God's commandments as stipulated in the Hebrew Bible.

But, oops, I forgot you do not share this common belief in God's words as stipulated in the Tanach. Just another false belief from the devil and those blind Jews.

Paul was a Jew. So were the apostles. All the New Testament writers (except Luke) were Jews. The initial converts were all Jews. The first 3,000 converts were Jews.

What did they all realise that you have yet to see and understand??

:-?

 

[Gary]

I think we all know that God is not interested in human sacrifice.

But what do the Hebrew Scriptures (written by Jews) and the Talmud (written by Jews) and the New Testament (written mainly by Jews) say about death of the righteous?

Does the death of the righteous have atoning power?

Here is what respected Orthodox Jewish historian Rabbi Berel Wein has to say:

"...Another consideration tinged the Jewish response to the slaughter of its people." [These were the massacres in Eastern Europe in the 17th century]

"It was an old Jewish tradition dating back to Biblical times that the death of the righteous and the innocent served as an exiation for the sins of the nation or the world."

"The stories of Isaac and of Nadav and Avihu, the prophetic description of Israel as the long-suffering servant of the Lord, the sacrificial service in the Temple - all served to reinforce this basic concept of the death of the righteous as an atonement for the sins of other men."

There is more.....

Interested?