DN: Thank you for your kind words. My purpose is not to disparage Christianity but to provide information from the Jewish perspective, to the best of my ability, and explain why many Christian doctrines are simply unJewish and not in accord with the Hebrew Bible (Tanach). :D
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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DivineNames
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- #62
Gary said:
It doesn't seem that way to me. It seems as if einstein has actually answered your point. Perhaps you would now like to comment on some of the points that einstein has been making?
I don't know why you use that kind of rhetoric Gary. I can't see that you have any business in suggesting that other people can't, "face the truth". I have seen the way that you behave in these forums. You aren't looking for honest discussion. Not in a million years. You will come into a discussion and try and put people down if you think that you can get away with it, but there is no way you are really looking for honest debate.
J
John the Baptist
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- Thread starter
- #63
Forum: This 'house' is just a bunch of hog-wash! (Matthew 23:38) A lot [of talk with no scripture] even hinted at. Who takes over these Christ/less houses is not left up to a 'scripturless' guess!!
Revelation 3:9. And John 1:11. And now we come to a BLOOD/LESS SALVATION! :roll:
---John
Revelation 3:9. And John 1:11. And now we come to a BLOOD/LESS SALVATION! :roll:
---John
A
Admiral
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- Thread starter
- #64
I have a question for Einstein.....
In light of his question-
I was curious as to what he [and only he, not his rabbi or religious teacher] thought of Isaiah 53
1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression [a] and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes [c] his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
How do you interpret the above regarding the Messiah?
In light of his question-
I was curious as to what he [and only he, not his rabbi or religious teacher] thought of Isaiah 53
1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression [a] and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes [c] his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
How do you interpret the above regarding the Messiah?
A
Admiral
Guest
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- #65
Re: blood atonement
Message deleted...
Sorry, I hit the return button twice
:
Message deleted...
Sorry, I hit the return button twice
:
A
Admiral
Guest
- Thread starter
- #66
Re: blood atonement
I am quite honestly, not familiar with "Hashem", nor other abreviations that you are using...Ie the "GT", but I think I get the jist of what you are saying....
Let me rephrase it to you, and see if we are on the same page...
The question is regarding Jesus suitablity as a sacrifice. Such sacrifices were required to be slain by the one offering it and the blood of the sacrifice had to be placed by the priest on the horn of the altar and the rest of the blood poured out at the foot of the altar....
While I agree that the spirit of the sacrifice is what counts, the literallness can not be maintain for the simple reason the Jewish religion simply would not sacrifice a human being on thier altars...
As such, that is why Jesus was offered up outside by romans instugated by the Jews. This symbolized that Jesus' sacrifice was for the whole world. And no priest would ever touch the blood of a human, lest he be defied. But Jesus' blood was poured out, as an offering, when pierce by a spear in His side. So, in the spirit of the law, Jesus fulfilled it.
I would question you what this means from Numbers 21....
4 They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea, [c] to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; 5 they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the desert? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!"
6 Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, "We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the snakes away from us." So Moses prayed for the people.
8 The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.
How can a snake save the individuals when snakes were concidered to be evil or sin?
Oh, and in the spirit of learning from each culture and person, just you and I ...no, rabbi, please.... :-D
einstein said:
I am quite honestly, not familiar with "Hashem", nor other abreviations that you are using...Ie the "GT", but I think I get the jist of what you are saying....
Let me rephrase it to you, and see if we are on the same page...
The question is regarding Jesus suitablity as a sacrifice. Such sacrifices were required to be slain by the one offering it and the blood of the sacrifice had to be placed by the priest on the horn of the altar and the rest of the blood poured out at the foot of the altar....
While I agree that the spirit of the sacrifice is what counts, the literallness can not be maintain for the simple reason the Jewish religion simply would not sacrifice a human being on thier altars...
As such, that is why Jesus was offered up outside by romans instugated by the Jews. This symbolized that Jesus' sacrifice was for the whole world. And no priest would ever touch the blood of a human, lest he be defied. But Jesus' blood was poured out, as an offering, when pierce by a spear in His side. So, in the spirit of the law, Jesus fulfilled it.
I would question you what this means from Numbers 21....
4 They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea, [c] to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; 5 they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the desert? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!"
6 Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, "We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the snakes away from us." So Moses prayed for the people.
8 The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.
How can a snake save the individuals when snakes were concidered to be evil or sin?
Oh, and in the spirit of learning from each culture and person, just you and I ...no, rabbi, please.... :-D
J
John the Baptist
Guest
- Thread starter
- #67
Finely the [MASTER'S WORDS], huh? :fadein: Here are some more. Do I need to use the Jewish Bible?
Try the K.J. on Isaiah 5. I will highlight a few intriguing verses.
1 Now will I sing to my well beloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My well beloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:
(One can find out what & who are in membership with the Virgin Vineyard in verse 7, yet, remember to see Matthew 25:1-12! with a 'Closed Door)
2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.
(like Cain's BLOODLESS sacrifice in Genesis 4:7)
3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, *judge, I pray you, *betwixt [me and my vineyard].
(It stands for eternity who Israel as a nation has CHOOSEN! They still have only an DOCUMENTED Chrest/less Fold! Be sure to know that this is a twofold repeat prophecy, not for a Christ/less Israel, but for histories last Revelation 12:17 Virgin doctrinal Vineyard, Fold, Church, Denomination, or whatever suits you? She is seen again DESOLATE of Christ! Matthew 23:38 & Revelation 3:9. We are talking about the FOLD as a whole! Individuals cannot be saved staying yoked to her! Revelation 18:4 And be sure to note that this is not old Israel nor the Revelation 17:5 ones)
4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?
5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:
(Surely most of even the Revelation 17:5 daughters of the great whore know that old Israel was slaughtered in 70 AD? See Ezekiel 9. And there is to be a repeat of this also! Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15. )
6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.
7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.
(There can be no blindness of what God here in the Hebrew bible even, has prophesied in the old testament! He has documented this for the Universe to have throughput eternity to study! What the Godhead has, had, and would do with any 'VIRGIN CANDLESTICK' that rejected Their Everlasting Gospel & Everlasting Covenant! See also Revelation 2:5 & Revelation 3:16-17. Virgin doctrines [alone] without the Christ of the doctrine save NO ONE! It takes [BOTH!]
---John)
Try the K.J. on Isaiah 5. I will highlight a few intriguing verses.
1 Now will I sing to my well beloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My well beloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill:
(One can find out what & who are in membership with the Virgin Vineyard in verse 7, yet, remember to see Matthew 25:1-12! with a 'Closed Door)
2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.
(like Cain's BLOODLESS sacrifice in Genesis 4:7)
3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, *judge, I pray you, *betwixt [me and my vineyard].
(It stands for eternity who Israel as a nation has CHOOSEN! They still have only an DOCUMENTED Chrest/less Fold! Be sure to know that this is a twofold repeat prophecy, not for a Christ/less Israel, but for histories last Revelation 12:17 Virgin doctrinal Vineyard, Fold, Church, Denomination, or whatever suits you? She is seen again DESOLATE of Christ! Matthew 23:38 & Revelation 3:9. We are talking about the FOLD as a whole! Individuals cannot be saved staying yoked to her! Revelation 18:4 And be sure to note that this is not old Israel nor the Revelation 17:5 ones)
4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?
5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:
(Surely most of even the Revelation 17:5 daughters of the great whore know that old Israel was slaughtered in 70 AD? See Ezekiel 9. And there is to be a repeat of this also! Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15. )
6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.
7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.
(There can be no blindness of what God here in the Hebrew bible even, has prophesied in the old testament! He has documented this for the Universe to have throughput eternity to study! What the Godhead has, had, and would do with any 'VIRGIN CANDLESTICK' that rejected Their Everlasting Gospel & Everlasting Covenant! See also Revelation 2:5 & Revelation 3:16-17. Virgin doctrines [alone] without the Christ of the doctrine save NO ONE! It takes [BOTH!]
---John)
Admiral: wrt Isaiah 53 please go to the thread "Why Jews do not recognize Christ" and see my posts which start 01/13. I will respond to your other post when I have more time.
John: With all due respect, I don't understand your post at all. Can you simplify what you are trying to say?:
John: With all due respect, I don't understand your post at all. Can you simplify what you are trying to say?
:
A
Admiral
Guest
- Thread starter
- #69
Hit the return button twice again... :
:
A
Admiral
Guest
- Thread starter
- #70
einstein said:
Well, I am at a loss...for I THINK I found the thread, "Why Jews do not recognise Christ", but not your post.
I found this thread-
posted by "guest", but it was not yours....So, I am sorry as I can not find your exact post... I will continue to look for more....
http://www.christianforums.net/view...r=asc&highlight=jews+recognize+christ&start=0
J
John the Baptist
Guest
- Thread starter
- #71
______________________________John the Baptist said:
subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John: With all due respect, I don't understand your post at all. Can you simplify what you are trying to say?
Back to top
********
John here:
This post is the O.T. Bible, do not Jews understand the O.T. Book??? Or you??
D
DivineNames
Guest
- Thread starter
- #72
John the Baptist said:
If you write in a clear and straightforward way it will help you to get your point across.
Admiral: My mistake. The thread is "Why Jews do not believe in Christ" about halfway down the list under Christianity and other religions. I entered a number of posts providing a Jewish perspective on Is 53 taking into account a more accurate Hebrew translation. :D
J
John the Baptist
Guest
- Thread starter
- #74
DivineNames said:
***
Look, that is God's Word! Read it, and forget my end of it. Or is that not understood by you either? Hay, I know of a prophet (dead) that explained this chapter if you want me to post this short understanding, I will have you take a crack at it? But I doubt that you would get anything from it either, for I am as clear as crystal! :wink:
But we are told that 'spiritual things are spiritually decerned'. Do you know what that means?
---John
D
DivineNames
Guest
- Thread starter
- #75
John the Baptist said:
Do I know what that means?
I am guessing it means that you like to talk nonsense, and if anyone objects you will say that they don't understand as they aren't being helped by the Holy Spirit or whatever. Is that right? Am I getting close?
:D
S
Soma-Sight
Guest
- Thread starter
- #77
Judaism and Christianity are two very different religions.
"Jews for Jesus" is an oxymoron.
Using the Hebrew Bible to prove the Atonement alone is hard to do if not impossible without Paul.
G
Georges
Guest
- Thread starter
- #78
Re: blood atonement
Can't do it......a Passover sacrifice (in the spring) is as close as you are gonna get.....an Atonement sacrifice (offically) was performed on Yom Kippur (in the fall). Human sacrifice was forbidden in the OT.....why would God break his own rule?
However, in the OT one could atone for their sins by many different means...
excerpts from a work I am critiquing for a colleague....
On Jesus as the Atonement Sacrifice:
The means of Atonement found in the OT....
Old Testament means of Atonement for sins
1. Incense
"And Moses said unto Aaron, 'Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar,
and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them:
for there is wrath gone out from [YHWH]; the plague is begun.' And Aaron took
as Moses commanded, and ran into the midst of the congregation; and, behold, the plague
was begun among the people: and he put on incense, and made an atonement for the people." (Numbers 16:46-47)
2. Money
"The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when
they give an offering unto [YHWH], to make an atonement for your souls. And thou shalt
take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shalt appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of the congregation; that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before [YHWH], to make an atonement for your souls." (Exodus 30:15-16)
3. Property/Goods
"We have therefore brought an oblation for [YHWH], what every man hath gotten, of
jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets, rings, earrings, and tablets, to make an atonement
for our souls before [YHWH]." Numbers 31:50)
4. Blood for unintentional sins
"And [YHWH] spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a
soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of [YHWH] concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them: If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he
hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto [YHWH] for a sin offering.
5. Blood-if bullock or lamb not affordable (unintentional sins)
"And if he be not able to bring a lamb, then he shall bring for his trespass, which he hath committed, two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, unto [YHWH]; one for a sin offering,
and the other for a burnt offering." (Leviticus 5:7)
6. Flour-if turtledoves or pigeons not affordable (unintentional sins)
"But if his means are insufficient for two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then for his offering for that which he has sinned, he shall bring the tenth of an ephah of fine flour for
a sin offering; he shall not put oil on it or place incense on it, for it is a sin offering." (Leviticus 5:11)
What if there was no Temple or Priesthood
7. Prayer
Solomon addresses the subject of the Israelite people being denied access to the temple
in his dedication speech.
"If they return to You with all their heart and with all their soul in the land of their enemies who have taken them captive, and pray to You toward their land which You have given to their fathers, the city which You have chosen, and the house which I have built for Your
name; then hear their prayer and their supplication in heaven Your dwelling place, and maintain their cause, and forgive Your people who have sinned against You and all their transgressions which they have transgressed against You..." (I Kings 8:46-50)
More Prayer
"And if My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray, and seek
My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their
sin, and will heal their land." (II Chronicles 7:14).
"And listen to the supplications of Your servant and of Your people Israel, when they
pray toward this place; hear from heaven Your dwelling place, hear and forgive." (II Chronicles 6:21)
8. Nothing-Just because God is merciful (my favourite)
"You have not brought Me sheep of your burnt offerings...or the fat of your sacrifices,
but you have burdened Me with your sins...Nevertheless, I will wipe out your
transgressions for My name sake, and I will not remember your sins." (Isaiah 43:23-25)
9. Turning from evil ways
"That every man will turn from his evil way, then I will forgive their iniquity and their
sin." (Jeremiah 36:3)
"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts, and let him return to [YHWH], and He will have compassion on him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon." (Isaiah 55:7)
Remember the story of Jonah? He was sent to the evil city of Nineveh to warn them of
their impending destruction. Jonah does not come into the city and tell the people that
unless they begin offering sacrifices they are doomed. No! He warns them to repent.
Their response to his warnings is: they fast, pray, and turn from their evil. What is our CREATOR's response to their repentance?
"When God saw their deeds that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them, and He did
not do it." (Jonah 3:10).
How did Daniel advise king Nebuchadnezzar to atone for his sins?
"Therefore, O king, may my advice be pleasing to you: Redeem your sins by doing righteousness, and your iniquities by showing mercy to the poor." (Daniel 4:27).
Neither Ninevah or Nebuchadnezzar were part of Israel, Ninevah was the capital of
Assyria and Nebuchadnezzar was the King of Babylon.
After the ten northern tribes split away from Judah, a civil war prevented most of Israel
from Temple worship. The prophet Hosea addressed this situation and instructed the people accordingly:
"Return, O Israel, to [YHWH] your God, For you have stumbled because of your iniquity. Take words with you and return to [YHWH]. Say to Him, 'Take away all iniquity, and
receive us graciously, for we will render as bullocks the offerings of our lips'." (Hosea 14:1-2)
Incense, Flour, Prayer, Repentance, Money, Goods & Gods Mercy have nothing to do with blood yet were all acceptable to God to atone for sins.
einstein said:
Can't do it......a Passover sacrifice (in the spring) is as close as you are gonna get.....an Atonement sacrifice (offically) was performed on Yom Kippur (in the fall). Human sacrifice was forbidden in the OT.....why would God break his own rule?
However, in the OT one could atone for their sins by many different means...
excerpts from a work I am critiquing for a colleague....
On Jesus as the Atonement Sacrifice:
The means of Atonement found in the OT....
Old Testament means of Atonement for sins
1. Incense
"And Moses said unto Aaron, 'Take a censer, and put fire therein from off the altar,
and put on incense, and go quickly unto the congregation, and make an atonement for them:
for there is wrath gone out from [YHWH]; the plague is begun.' And Aaron took
as Moses commanded, and ran into the midst of the congregation; and, behold, the plague
was begun among the people: and he put on incense, and made an atonement for the people." (Numbers 16:46-47)
2. Money
"The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when
they give an offering unto [YHWH], to make an atonement for your souls. And thou shalt
take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shalt appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of the congregation; that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before [YHWH], to make an atonement for your souls." (Exodus 30:15-16)
3. Property/Goods
"We have therefore brought an oblation for [YHWH], what every man hath gotten, of
jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets, rings, earrings, and tablets, to make an atonement
for our souls before [YHWH]." Numbers 31:50)
4. Blood for unintentional sins
"And [YHWH] spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a
soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of [YHWH] concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them: If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he
hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto [YHWH] for a sin offering.
5. Blood-if bullock or lamb not affordable (unintentional sins)
"And if he be not able to bring a lamb, then he shall bring for his trespass, which he hath committed, two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, unto [YHWH]; one for a sin offering,
and the other for a burnt offering." (Leviticus 5:7)
6. Flour-if turtledoves or pigeons not affordable (unintentional sins)
"But if his means are insufficient for two turtledoves or two young pigeons, then for his offering for that which he has sinned, he shall bring the tenth of an ephah of fine flour for
a sin offering; he shall not put oil on it or place incense on it, for it is a sin offering." (Leviticus 5:11)
What if there was no Temple or Priesthood
7. Prayer
Solomon addresses the subject of the Israelite people being denied access to the temple
in his dedication speech.
"If they return to You with all their heart and with all their soul in the land of their enemies who have taken them captive, and pray to You toward their land which You have given to their fathers, the city which You have chosen, and the house which I have built for Your
name; then hear their prayer and their supplication in heaven Your dwelling place, and maintain their cause, and forgive Your people who have sinned against You and all their transgressions which they have transgressed against You..." (I Kings 8:46-50)
More Prayer
"And if My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray, and seek
My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their
sin, and will heal their land." (II Chronicles 7:14).
"And listen to the supplications of Your servant and of Your people Israel, when they
pray toward this place; hear from heaven Your dwelling place, hear and forgive." (II Chronicles 6:21)
8. Nothing-Just because God is merciful (my favourite)
"You have not brought Me sheep of your burnt offerings...or the fat of your sacrifices,
but you have burdened Me with your sins...Nevertheless, I will wipe out your
transgressions for My name sake, and I will not remember your sins." (Isaiah 43:23-25)
9. Turning from evil ways
"That every man will turn from his evil way, then I will forgive their iniquity and their
sin." (Jeremiah 36:3)
"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts, and let him return to [YHWH], and He will have compassion on him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon." (Isaiah 55:7)
Remember the story of Jonah? He was sent to the evil city of Nineveh to warn them of
their impending destruction. Jonah does not come into the city and tell the people that
unless they begin offering sacrifices they are doomed. No! He warns them to repent.
Their response to his warnings is: they fast, pray, and turn from their evil. What is our CREATOR's response to their repentance?
"When God saw their deeds that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them, and He did
not do it." (Jonah 3:10).
How did Daniel advise king Nebuchadnezzar to atone for his sins?
"Therefore, O king, may my advice be pleasing to you: Redeem your sins by doing righteousness, and your iniquities by showing mercy to the poor." (Daniel 4:27).
Neither Ninevah or Nebuchadnezzar were part of Israel, Ninevah was the capital of
Assyria and Nebuchadnezzar was the King of Babylon.
After the ten northern tribes split away from Judah, a civil war prevented most of Israel
from Temple worship. The prophet Hosea addressed this situation and instructed the people accordingly:
"Return, O Israel, to [YHWH] your God, For you have stumbled because of your iniquity. Take words with you and return to [YHWH]. Say to Him, 'Take away all iniquity, and
receive us graciously, for we will render as bullocks the offerings of our lips'." (Hosea 14:1-2)
Incense, Flour, Prayer, Repentance, Money, Goods & Gods Mercy have nothing to do with blood yet were all acceptable to God to atone for sins.
That's a great summary of the sacrificial beliefs in the Tanach. As one can see the sin sacrifice or hataat was for unintentional sins. There was also a guilt sacrifice or asham for some intentional sins such as robbery or misappropriation of Temple property, where restitution had to be made as well. There were many other transgressions where contrite prayer repentance and other non-blood sacrifice could bring G-d's forgiveness. It would seem that the authors of the gospels chose to ignore all of this in formulating their own theory of human vicarious sacrifice to achieve "the universal and everlasting" atonement of the crucifixtion.
just one other point for clarification. The sin/guilt sacrifices in Lev 4-5 are required for inadvertent sins pertaining to the transgression of NEGATIVE commandments.
Lev 4:2- Speak to the children of Israel saying: If a person sins unintentionally (by committing one) of all the commandments of the Lord, which may NOT be committed, and he commits (part) of one of them.
This means that not only will blood sacrifice not atone for intentional sins, it means that there are 246 positive commandments that can be transgressed inadvertently which do not require blood sacrifice as well. :wink:
Lev 4:2- Speak to the children of Israel saying: If a person sins unintentionally (by committing one) of all the commandments of the Lord, which may NOT be committed, and he commits (part) of one of them.
This means that not only will blood sacrifice not atone for intentional sins, it means that there are 246 positive commandments that can be transgressed inadvertently which do not require blood sacrifice as well. :wink: