Blood atonement - our Lord Jesus Christ

[John the Baptist]

John here: You see DC46, here is a poster that seems to relates Moses hand written Laws with the Eternal Covenant of the Godhead? How can one teach about one law & have folks not know which law you are talking about? Regardless of it being your 'full of holes' sarcasm, or any one else that might be sincere? Then comes I really don't care attitude!?? And, was it not Christ who died for us when we were yet sinners???

John-to be southern boys, we ain't communicating worth a hoot here!! Of course it was Christ who died for us. When did I indicate otherwise? What did Jesus say about the law? And of Paul...

Matthew 5:17 (KJV) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

***
OK: That was what I thought that you were telling the [Universe] in my first post. Then, you are saying that you love Christ, huh? "If you love Me keep My Commandments" He says. Then, I am seeing that you are into some real present day truth study! Psalms 77:13.

Then comes this FULFIL word??? It does not explain itself, so you help it along right?
So seeing that some of us are 'whatever it was that you said about us?? :roll: Maybe you can tell us all what happened when Christ died? You know the seperating Vail between the Holy Place & making the way into the Most Holy Place

And we need to know how Christ finished the Eternal Covenant Law that He is ministering before?? You know, what the High Priest did on the Day of Atonement. The Ark is still there with the Testimony in it according to the Holy Spirits Inspiration in Revelation 11:19, (unless you have finished that and have the Ark emptied?) and it is interesting in Revelation 11:18 for the 'time of the judgement of the DEAD also, just before the verse, huh?

----

John 1:17 (KJV) For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:31 (KJV) Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 6:14 (KJV) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 6:15 (KJV) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Romans 8:3-4 (KJV) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

****
The above verses that you give, they put you right back under the Eternal Covenant when one breakes them. I agree! Romans 8:1's 'NO CONDEMNATION' verse is to the ones that are [IN] CHRIST! When one steps out of the Everlasting Gospel (Revelation 14:6) he is right back to [willful sinning] if it is known! This, David in Psalms 19:13 (K.J.) calls Presumptious dangerous sinning. He talked of the Law & then used the Word [also] .. . If you can see any value in Numbers 35:26-28 as a lesson of seven cities, one might understand that Christ is our refudge.

My problem with this thread is that one needs to know the differance between the Eternal Covenant Law of God, & the law of Galatins 3:19 that was added because of sin, the one that Moses wrote in a book and placed in the side of the Ark, not inside where the Covenant was kept. The one is Eternal & the other was temporiary!
****

This is what I'm getting at. No man could serve God under the Law in that it brought about the knowledge that he was in sin, and that no amount of burning animal's flesh could atone in that it was imperfect until Christ came. The old sacrafices were continual... Doth sayeth the scriptures.

****
There is no dis/agreement with that it is and was the Eternal Gospel of Christ that saves. And that all of the saved will ONLY be saved in that way! Acts 4:12 And that NO one will be Born Again in the first place that will not accept the Eternal Covenant Conditions! Acts 5:32's OBEDIENCE!

In other words the ETERNAL UNIVERSAL COVENANT CANNOT EVER BE SEPARATED FROM THE ETERNAL EVERLASTING GOSPEL! That is the Everlasting Gospel! See 2 Corinthians 3:3 for 'Christ's Epistle' to us!!
****

Can a person be obedient prior to being saved? Is it obedience that saves a person, or the obedience of Jesus that saves a person?

John here: Surely, God requires total submission before He can give us the Holy Ghost. Acts 5:32

 

[DivineNames]

Some skeptics and non-believers on these forums have already questioned the fact that Jesus is the blood atonement required by God for sin and forgiveness.

I seriously doubt that you could support that claim. The sacrifice of Jesus wouldn't be legitimate by the criteria of the Old Testament. All you could do is appeal to "types". In other words, you have to ignore the plain meaning of the text and use very suspect non-literal interpretation. And you will find that such interpretation is basically worthless when it comes to trying to support the truth of Christianity.

Prove me wrong.

 

[DivineNames]

Is the shedding of blood central to atonement in the OT?

"...the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness" (Hebrews 9:22)

As that right?

If you wanted to ask, "Is that right?", the answer with regard to Hebrews 9:22 is, "No, it isn't right". You do not need the shedding of blood for forgiveness. That was one way according to the Old Testament, but it wasn't the only way.

 

[John the Baptist]

Is the shedding of blood central to atonement in the OT?

"...the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness" (Hebrews 9:22)

As that right?

If you wanted to ask, "Is that right?", the answer with regard to Hebrews 9:22 is, "No, it isn't right". You do not need the shedding of blood for forgiveness. That was one way according to the Old Testament, but it wasn't the only way.

----------
:roll: Go back to Genesis 3:15 & then Cain in Genesis 4:7 and see the results of that statement! One might wonder who it was that Cain's DESIRE now turned to!

---John

 

[John the Baptist]

And there will be no one saved without Christ's Blood applied upon the Eternal Mercy Seat of the heavenly Sanctury! Psalms 77:13

One might be saved not knowing this, (Romans 2:14-15) but the [bottom line] is, is that there is no other way that fallen man can be reclaimed except through Christ & His bloody death!

---John

 

[D46]

Romans 5:9 (KJV) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Ephesians 1:7 (KJV) In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Colossians 1:14 (KJV) In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

And the church said...AMEN!!!

 

[John the Baptist]

The Sanctuary of the heavenly pattern had two apartments with the Vail that rent separating the two. When Christ died we see that it was made rent by an unseen hand. Making the way from the Holy Place into the Most Holy Place.

It was only the Most Holy Place that had the [Mercy Seat above the Broken Covenant] in it. And it was only once a year that this [Day of Atonement occurred]. This was where the Blood was applied 'seven times' which surely has a message for us, as it did Israel of old when Christ came the first time! From 27-34 AD, and the beginning of the NEW CHURCH! See Matthew 23:38's DESOLATE FOLD. Check Leviticus 16:14-19. And Daniel's 'in the midst of the week' day year of Ezekiel 4:6 & Numbers 14:33-34 = 7 years. (and there is more in Rev. :wink: !)

If a person did not respond to this service, they were cut off from the people. Leviticus 17:8-9. This represented the very last work of Christ for us.

---John

 

[Solo]

[quote="John the Baptist":6437c]

John here: You see DC46, here is a poster that seems to relates Moses hand written Laws with the Eternal Covenant of the Godhead? How can one teach about one law & have folks not know which law you are talking about? Regardless of it being your 'full of holes' sarcasm, or any one else that might be sincere? Then comes I really don't care attitude!?? And, was it not Christ who died for us when we were yet sinners???

John-to be southern boys, we ain't communicating worth a hoot here!! Of course it was Christ who died for us. When did I indicate otherwise? What did Jesus say about the law? And of Paul...

Matthew 5:17 (KJV) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

***
OK: That was what I thought that you were telling the [Universe] in my first post. Then, you are saying that you love Christ, huh? "If you love Me keep My Commandments" He says. Then, I am seeing that you are into some real present day truth study! Psalms 77:13.

Then comes this FULFIL word??? It does not explain itself, so you help it along right?
So seeing that some of us are 'whatever it was that you said about us?? :roll: Maybe you can tell us all what happened when Christ died? You know the seperating Vail between the Holy Place & making the way into the Most Holy Place

And we need to know how Christ finished the Eternal Covenant Law that He is ministering before?? You know, what the High Priest did on the Day of Atonement. The Ark is still there with the Testimony in it according to the Holy Spirits Inspiration in Revelation 11:19, (unless you have finished that and have the Ark emptied?) and it is interesting in Revelation 11:18 for the 'time of the judgement of the DEAD also, just before the verse, huh?

----

John 1:17 (KJV) For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:31 (KJV) Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 6:14 (KJV) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 6:15 (KJV) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Romans 8:3-4 (KJV) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

****
The above verses that you give, they put you right back under the Eternal Covenant when one breakes them. I agree! Romans 8:1's 'NO CONDEMNATION' verse is to the ones that are [IN] CHRIST! When one steps out of the Everlasting Gospel (Revelation 14:6) he is right back to [willful sinning] if it is known! This, David in Psalms 19:13 (K.J.) calls Presumptious dangerous sinning. He talked of the Law & then used the Word [also] .. . If you can see any value in Numbers 35:26-28 as a lesson of seven cities, one might understand that Christ is our refudge.

My problem with this thread is that one needs to know the differance between the Eternal Covenant Law of God, & the law of Galatins 3:19 that was added because of sin, the one that Moses wrote in a book and placed in the side of the Ark, not inside where the Covenant was kept. The one is Eternal & the other was temporiary!
****

This is what I'm getting at. No man could serve God under the Law in that it brought about the knowledge that he was in sin, and that no amount of burning animal's flesh could atone in that it was imperfect until Christ came. The old sacrafices were continual... Doth sayeth the scriptures.

****
There is no dis/agreement with that it is and was the Eternal Gospel of Christ that saves. And that all of the saved will ONLY be saved in that way! Acts 4:12 And that NO one will be Born Again in the first place that will not accept the Eternal Covenant Conditions! Acts 5:32's OBEDIENCE!

In other words the ETERNAL UNIVERSAL COVENANT CANNOT EVER BE SEPARATED FROM THE ETERNAL EVERLASTING GOSPEL! That is the Everlasting Gospel! See 2 Corinthians 3:3 for 'Christ's Epistle' to us!!
****

Can a person be obedient prior to being saved? Is it obedience that saves a person, or the obedience of Jesus that saves a person?

John here: Surely, God requires total submission before He can give us the Holy Ghost. Acts 5:32[/quote:6437c]
The Jews who are identified in Acts 5 kept the ten commandments in obedience, why weren't they saved? Why weren't they given the Holy Spirit?

Is it the obedience of the person that gets one saved, or the obedience of Jesus Christ that gets one saved?

 

[John the Baptist]

John here: Surely, God requires total submission before He can give us the Holy Ghost. Acts 5:32

You ask: The Jews who are identified in Acts 5 kept the ten commandments in obedience, why weren't they saved? Why weren't they given the Holy Spirit?

Is it the obedience of the person that gets one saved, or the obedience of Jesus Christ that gets one saved?
_________________We fail to glorify Him when we speak of God out of our own vain imaginings or recreate Him in our own image; instead of honoring Him by how He revealed Himself through His holy Word. (Psalm 50:21; 1 Corinthians 2:13-16)


********
First Matthew 28:20 finds that Christ requires 'teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you' (seed sown)

Then one must be Born Again. That takes 'total surrender' to Christ. Otherwise Acts 5:32 finds one Holy Spirit/less still. With just the legalistic form of working ones way to heaven. That is why many professed commandment keepers are legalist! Compare 2 Corinthians 3:3-Hebrews 8:10-Hebrews 10:15-16 all for the Born Again Saving Motive.

When one is Born Again, what is now the 'Burning Motive' to Obey our Master!! Christ says "[IF] ye love me, keep My commandments"

And all in Christ's day were professed commandment keepers!

---John

 

[Solo]

John here: Surely, God requires total submission before He can give us the Holy Ghost. Acts 5:32

You ask: The Jews who are identified in Acts 5 kept the ten commandments in obedience, why weren't they saved? Why weren't they given the Holy Spirit?

Is it the obedience of the person that gets one saved, or the obedience of Jesus Christ that gets one saved?
_________________We fail to glorify Him when we speak of God out of our own vain imaginings or recreate Him in our own image; instead of honoring Him by how He revealed Himself through His holy Word. (Psalm 50:21; 1 Corinthians 2:13-16)


********
First Matthew 28:20 finds that Christ requires 'teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you' (seed sown)

Then one must be Born Again. That takes 'total surrender' to Christ. Otherwise Acts 5:32 finds one Holy Spirit/less still. With just the legalistic form of working ones way to heaven. That is why many professed commandment keepers are legalist! Compare 2 Corinthians 3:3-Hebrews 8:10-Hebrews 10:15-16 all for the Born Again Saving Motive.

When one is Born Again, what is now the 'Burning Motive' to Obey our Master!! Christ says "[IF] ye love me, keep My commandments"

And all in Christ's day were professed commandment keepers!

---John

Is the flesh of man able to keep the commandments of God in its sinfulness? The flesh of man is sinful, corrupt, and mortal; is it able to obey God? Or is it the Born Again inward man that obeys God?

 

[John the Baptist]

John here: Surely, God requires total submission before He can give us the Holy Ghost. Acts 5:32

You ask: The Jews who are identified in Acts 5 kept the ten commandments in obedience, why weren't they saved? Why weren't they given the Holy Spirit?

Is it the obedience of the person that gets one saved, or the obedience of Jesus Christ that gets one saved?
_________________We fail to glorify Him when we speak of God out of our own vain imaginings or recreate Him in our own image; instead of honoring Him by how He revealed Himself through His holy Word. (Psalm 50:21; 1 Corinthians 2:13-16)


********
First Matthew 28:20 finds that Christ requires 'teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you' (seed sown)

Then one must be Born Again. That takes 'total surrender' to Christ. Otherwise Acts 5:32 finds one Holy Spirit/less still. With just the legalistic form of working ones way to heaven. That is why many professed commandment keepers are legalist! Compare 2 Corinthians 3:3-Hebrews 8:10-Hebrews 10:15-16 all for the Born Again Saving Motive.

When one is Born Again, what is now the 'Burning Motive' to Obey our Master!! Christ says "[IF] ye love me, keep My commandments"

And all in Christ's day were professed commandment keepers!

---John

You ask:
Is the flesh of man able to keep the commandments of God in its sinfulness? The flesh of man is sinful, corrupt, and mortal; is it able to obey God? Or is it the Born Again inward man that obeys God?

*******
I suspect that you do not understand the 1 John 5:16-17 verses? Nor did you quote the Acts 5:32 verse in your post? You mentioned commandments?? The Holy Spirit is the Inspiration of all of the Everlasting Gospel's and He is given upon our submission to His OBEDIENCE, it is not only commandments, and they were not even mentioned there, were they.

You are saying (asking) that the carnal nature controls the Born Again mind?? Come on, surely no one will be in the kingdom with Christ who 'yields' the Converted mind to his carnal body!

Or: Do you not believe in the Philippians 4:13 & the 2 Corinthians 12:9 verse?? You know, the Inspiration of the Holy Ghost. And if you do not know that Paul is talking of his carnal body, read the next verse.. 2 Corinthians 12:10.

The Godhead says that you can, and you say that you can't, huh?? And the fight that you are really fighting against is about one aspect of Their requirement, huh? Their 7th. day Sabbath!

---John

 

[Solo]

[quote="John the Baptist":b9c55]John here: Surely, God requires total submission before He can give us the Holy Ghost. Acts 5:32

You ask: The Jews who are identified in Acts 5 kept the ten commandments in obedience, why weren't they saved? Why weren't they given the Holy Spirit?

Is it the obedience of the person that gets one saved, or the obedience of Jesus Christ that gets one saved?
_________________We fail to glorify Him when we speak of God out of our own vain imaginings or recreate Him in our own image; instead of honoring Him by how He revealed Himself through His holy Word. (Psalm 50:21; 1 Corinthians 2:13-16)


********
First Matthew 28:20 finds that Christ requires 'teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you' (seed sown)

Then one must be Born Again. That takes 'total surrender' to Christ. Otherwise Acts 5:32 finds one Holy Spirit/less still. With just the legalistic form of working ones way to heaven. That is why many professed commandment keepers are legalist! Compare 2 Corinthians 3:3-Hebrews 8:10-Hebrews 10:15-16 all for the Born Again Saving Motive.

When one is Born Again, what is now the 'Burning Motive' to Obey our Master!! Christ says "[IF] ye love me, keep My commandments"

And all in Christ's day were professed commandment keepers!

---John

You ask:
Is the flesh of man able to keep the commandments of God in its sinfulness? The flesh of man is sinful, corrupt, and mortal; is it able to obey God? Or is it the Born Again inward man that obeys God?

*******
I suspect that you do not understand the 1 John 5:16-17 verses? Nor did you quote the Acts 5:32 verse in your post? You mentioned commandments?? The Holy Spirit is the Inspiration of all of the Everlasting Gospel's and He is given upon our submission to His OBEDIENCE, it is not only commandments, and they were not even mentioned there, were they.

You are saying (asking) that the carnal nature controls the Born Again mind?? Come on, surely no one will be in the kingdom with Christ who 'yields' the Converted mind to his carnal body!

Or: Do you not believe in the Philippians 4:13 & the 2 Corinthians 12:9 verse?? You know, the Inspiration of the Holy Ghost. And if you do not know that Paul is talking of his carnal body, read the next verse.. 2 Corinthians 12:10.

The Godhead says that you can, and you say that you can't, huh?? And the fight that you are really fighting against is about one aspect of Their requirement, huh? Their 7th. day Sabbath!

---John[/quote:b9c55]
You have misunderstand my previous post. I am saying that apart from the Holy Spirit of God there cannot be any obedience to God's commandments. One can attempt to keep God's commandments in the flesh, but will fail miserably. Without the Holy Spirit and being born again one cannot keep God's commandments. If they could, then Jesus death on the cross was for no purpose.

The flesh cannot obey God's commandments and until one is born of God's holy Spirit, it is useless to even try. What do you think?

And please do not judge me as I keep all seven days holy unto God, not just the seventh.

 

[John the Baptist]

[quote="John the Baptist":494a1]John here: Surely, God requires total submission before He can give us the Holy Ghost. Acts 5:32

You ask: The Jews who are identified in Acts 5 kept the ten commandments in obedience, why weren't they saved? Why weren't they given the Holy Spirit?

Is it the obedience of the person that gets one saved, or the obedience of Jesus Christ that gets one saved?
_________________We fail to glorify Him when we speak of God out of our own vain imaginings or recreate Him in our own image; instead of honoring Him by how He revealed Himself through His holy Word. (Psalm 50:21; 1 Corinthians 2:13-16)


********
First Matthew 28:20 finds that Christ requires 'teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you' (seed sown)

Then one must be Born Again. That takes 'total surrender' to Christ. Otherwise Acts 5:32 finds one Holy Spirit/less still. With just the legalistic form of working ones way to heaven. That is why many professed commandment keepers are legalist! Compare 2 Corinthians 3:3-Hebrews 8:10-Hebrews 10:15-16 all for the Born Again Saving Motive.

When one is Born Again, what is now the 'Burning Motive' to Obey our Master!! Christ says "[IF] ye love me, keep My commandments"

And all in Christ's day were professed commandment keepers!

---John

You ask:
Is the flesh of man able to keep the commandments of God in its sinfulness? The flesh of man is sinful, corrupt, and mortal; is it able to obey God? Or is it the Born Again inward man that obeys God?

*******
I suspect that you do not understand the 1 John 5:16-17 verses? Nor did you quote the Acts 5:32 verse in your post? You mentioned commandments?? The Holy Spirit is the Inspiration of all of the Everlasting Gospel's and He is given upon our submission to His OBEDIENCE, it is not only commandments, and they were not even mentioned there, were they.

You are saying (asking) that the carnal nature controls the Born Again mind?? Come on, surely no one will be in the kingdom with Christ who 'yields' the Converted mind to his carnal body!

Or: Do you not believe in the Philippians 4:13 & the 2 Corinthians 12:9 verse?? You know, the Inspiration of the Holy Ghost. And if you do not know that Paul is talking of his carnal body, read the next verse.. 2 Corinthians 12:10.

The Godhead says that you can, and you say that you can't, huh?? And the fight that you are really fighting against is about one aspect of Their requirement, huh? Their 7th. day Sabbath!

---John

[/quote:494a1]
You have misunderstand my previous post. I am saying that apart from the Holy Spirit of God there cannot be any obedience to God's commandments. One can attempt to keep God's commandments in the flesh, but will fail miserably. Without the Holy Spirit and being born again one cannot keep God's commandments. If they could, then Jesus death on the cross was for no purpose.

***
John here:
after man sinned, the Holy Spirit strives with all mankind. Genesis 6:3
Both lost & saved (Born Again) For the latter, see again 1 John 5:15-17 & James 1:15. Being Born Again brings us back to the original creation of Adam. Philippians 4:13. (not bodily) We now have the Earnest of the Holy Spirit, these are Born Again as required. Yet it is not a done deal as far as being matured & safe to save as of yet! Nahum 1:9. This is Gods goal, it takes time even after Matthew 28:20's verse is taught, OK? And it is not the one or two time sin that God is concerned about, if you can follow this? It is the FINAL tally! Below I will try to explain further? :wink:

Do were understand how buying a home came about with 'earnest' money required as a down payment? Well the early on ones surely were excellent bible students it seems?

God required His 'perfect' created ones and recreated ones to have total freedom of OBEDIENCE with the Agape Love Created in the first birth only. (Adam's testing at the forbidden tree in the *MIDST of the garden) Man was a perfect 'baby' if you will? (and us in Heb. 5) God wanted & still wants (Requires) us New BORN BABES TO [mature] TO BE SAFE TO SAVE FOR ALL ETERNITY! (here on's side of it! :wink

Let me get one thing straight. We do not know anyone that we post with. There 'mind' is not for us to read, only God can do that. God's people are scattered all over His earth, and in false churchs & even not in churchs. ONLY these ones He knows. We will FOLLOW the Holy Spirits leading as in Romans 8:14 if we become fully MATURE, the choice is ours to make! Revelation 18:4. The BOTTOM LINE question for these ones to ask is, am I truly following Christ and His Word, all of it?? Matthew 4:4 Regardless of where we are at in growth, if we are Obedient? We will be LED INTO ALL TRUTH!

And about the question of commandment keeping for the non/Born Again ones?
These laws are moral PERFECT Laws that we all need to abide by as humans. They are the 'Seed Sowing' of Christ LETTER EPISTLE to us! Again 2 Corinthians 3:3. Read Isaiah 42:21 for one 'required' reason for why Christ came to earth!
And surely all children NEED to have this 'SEED SOWING' long long before they are even converted! (Born Again)

So: What one does with Christ's Epistle Covenant is up to each individual. All that we are required to do is seen in Matthew 28:18-20, huh? :fadein:

 

[Solo]

Hey John. Let's try this a different way. Please just answer the questions as simply and truthfully as you know how without rambling around. Thanks:

1. Is the flesh of man able to keep the commandments of God in its sinfulness?

2. The flesh of man is sinful, corrupt, and mortal; is it able to obey God?

3. Or is the Born Again inward man apart from the corrupt flesh that obeys God?

 

[John the Baptist]

Hey John. Let's try this a different way.

Please just answer the questions as simply and truthfully as you know how without rambling around. Thanks:

(same old Solo, huh! :roll: Isaiah 28:9-10 Whatever?)

1. Is the flesh of man able to keep the commandments of God in its sinfulness?

2. The flesh of man is sinful, corrupt, and mortal; is it able to obey God?

3. Or is the Born Again inward man apart from the corrupt flesh that obeys God?

 

[Solo]

Hey John. Let's try this a different way.

Please just answer the questions as simply and truthfully as you know how without rambling around. Thanks:

(same old Solo, huh! :roll: Isaiah 28:9-10 Whatever?)

1. Is the flesh of man able to keep the commandments of God in its sinfulness?

2. The flesh of man is sinful, corrupt, and mortal; is it able to obey God?

3. Or is the Born Again inward man apart from the corrupt flesh that obeys God?

I guess you just don't know!

Let me answer them for you.

1. Is the flesh of man able to keep the commandments of God in its sinfulness?

No, the flesh of man is corrupt and cannot keep the commandments (Law) of God because of its sinfulness. That is why Jesus had to come and keep the Law for us, and die on the cross for our sins, so that we too could be resurrected as he was.

2. The flesh of man is sinful, corrupt, and mortal; is it able to obey God?

In the flesh dwells no good thing, and No the corrupt, mortal flesh cannot completely obey God.

3. Or is the Born Again inward man apart from the corrupt flesh that obeys God?

Only the Born Again, Born of the Spirit of God inward man able to obey God. As stated before the corrupt flesh cannot completely obey God as it is continually warring against the inward born again man.

And by the way, I am the New Born Again Solo; you wouldn't like the Old Corrupt Flesh Solo.

 

[einstein]

atonement

Back on Feb 26 I posted that the sacrifice of Jesus and the principal of blood being the ONLY means of atonement were invalid as per the Hebrew Bible and Torah. The only real response I received was from D46 who said Christians were not under the Law anymore. That's OK because in essence that is the basic underlying principle which separates Christianity from Judaism. It IS NOT supportable solely by reference to the Hebrew Bible, but you can find proof for such a position if you follow Paul.

What people on this forum never address is the fact that G-d Himself in the Tanach states that his Torah and the commandments and his Sinaitic Covenant are not ephemeral but are to be followed eternally. The word "forever" is used over and over again. This does not mean there won't be periods where some laws such as temple sacrifice will be temporarily interrupted due to Israel's sins and the resulting exile. In fact we are told this would happen by the prophet Hosea but that in the end of days the third temple will be rebuilt and the sacrifices resumed. It is Paul who states otherwise, not Jesus for whom the Law is not be changed (although he did contravene some of the ordinances of the Law).

Why would people on this forum think that Hashem is some kind of sadist in that he would provide a blueprint of how to live in His Torah knowing full well that it was impossible to keep? That is what has been stated on this forum. Note I did not say it was not difficult to keep. The word used on this forum was "impossible" in other words, according to Paul we are in complete futility.

What does Hashem have to say about the Torah and his command to obey what it contains?

Deut 30:11-14 (KJB)- For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. It is not in heaven that you should say " Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?" Nor is it beyond the sea that you should say " Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?"
But the word is very near to you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.

Hashem Himself says in unequivocal terms to the nation of Israel at Sinai that his Torah is something that has been given because it CAN be followed.
Judaism states that it is the striving to behave in the manner G-d instructs that allows us to emulate G-d. Being mortals we will invariably fail from time to time but we must continue to strive to love G-d with all our hearts and in this way better ourselves, help our fellowman and improve the world.

 

[einstein]

Gary: As a follow up to your quote of Rabbi Wein, I emailed him regarding the atonement issue and I will quote his response verbatim. There are in fact 4 different instances in the Tanach where a righteous person dies and the Midrash makes commentary on the atoning value of their deaths. One such episode concerns the sons of Aharon (Aaron) who died on entering the Tabernacle. As I stated in a previous post there are various commentaries provided in the Midrashim. Here is what Rabbi Wein emailed me:

There is a Midrash that states that the death of the sons of Aharon, the death of the righteous is an atonement for the people of Israel since it deprives Israel of their presence and guidance. In no way does that mean that an individual's sins can be forgiven by the death of someone else. The Torah specifically states that "Each person dies for his own sins." The Christian doctrine has no basis in Judaism and has been refuted by Jewish scholars for millenia. Thanks for writing, Rabbi Wein.

 

[DivineNames]

:roll: Go back to Genesis 3:15 & then Cain in Genesis 4:7 and see the results of that statement! One might wonder who it was that Cain's DESIRE now turned to!

The statement I made was true, and is easily supported from the Bible. Please don't waste time.

 

[DivineNames]

Re: atonement

einstein, I think it is marvelous that we have someone Jewish around here that can educate us on these points.

in the end of days the third temple will be rebuilt and the sacrifices resumed.

This is interesting. If Jesus was really a "once for all" sacrifice, then why would the sacrifices need to be resumed?

Do Christians have an opinion on this?