Blood atonement - our Lord Jesus Christ

[Solo]

But, oops, I forgot you do not share this common belief in God's words as stipulated in the Tanach. Just another false belief from the devil and those blind Jews. :D

You forgot to put the adjectives in front of unbelieving and proudful in front of Jews. Those Jews that are humble and believing are in agreement with me. Thanks for showing your true side for all to see. I already knew it.

 

[einstein]

Anyone with a reasonable knowledge of Tanach would be "unbelieving" of the pagan-based myths that underlie the basic beliefs of Christianity as codified by the Council of Nicea in the 4th century. And yes, I am proud of my heritage and its contribution to the world. But I am not vain with respect to that issue. You fail to understand the difference nor do you seem able or willing to respond to any of my questions wrt to the validity of J's sacrifice taking into account God's commands and proscriptions as clearly stated in the Hebrew Bible.

Later I will post regarding the second aspect of the crucifixtion which is at issue, namely that blood is required for atonement- another belief which is refuted in the Hebrew Bible. I will also comment wrt Rabbi Wein.

 

[Solo]

Anyone with a reasonable knowledge of Tanach would be "unbelieving" of the pagan-based myths that underlie the basic beliefs of Christianity as codified by the Council of Nicea in the 4th century. And yes, I am proud of my heritage and its contribution to the world. But I am not vain with respect to that issue. You fail to understand the difference nor do you seem able or willing to respond to any of my questions wrt to the validity of J's sacrifice taking into account God's commands and proscriptions as clearly stated in the Hebrew Bible.

Later I will post regarding the second aspect of the crucifixtion which is at issue, namely that blood is required for atonement- another belief which is refuted in the Hebrew Bible. I will also comment wrt Rabbi Wein.

As long as you keep your discussions in line with the rules and statement of faith of this forum you are welcome, but if, as you have done, attack Christianity, then you can move on, for this is not a Jewish forum, but a Christian forum and any posts that attack Christianity are not allowed.
Thanks.

PS This information is free gratis with no warning so please abide by the rules and statement of faith.

 

[Gary]

While I wait for einstein to comment on Rabbi Wein's statement that "It was an old Jewish tradition dating back to Biblical times that the death of the righteous and the innocent served as an exiation for the sins of the nation or the world" ....

Do you know that the Talmud also teaches that "the death of the righteous atones" (mitatan shel tsaddiqim mekapperet)??

:o :o

Seems like several Jews know something "einstein" does not know!!

:wink:

 

[einstein]

It is simply fact attested to by many scholars in fields of theology, history, linguistics ancient near-east literature, etc, that Christian themes and motifs such as the virgin-birth, logos, incarnation, resurrection, eucharist, and death of a god or demigod to expiate mankind's sins are all described in ancient mystery religions and cults centuries before they were reworked by the authors of the GT. How do you regard this as an ATTACK on Christianity?

 

[Solo]

It is simply fact attested to by many scholars in fields of theology, history, linguistics ancient near-east literature, etc, that Christian themes and motifs such as the virgin-birth, logos, incarnation, resurrection, eucharist, and death of a god or demigod to expiate mankind's sins are all described in ancient mystery religions and cults centuries before they were reworked by the authors of the GT. How do you regard this as an ATTACK on Christianity?

Only unbelievers and skeptics attack Christianity with the garbage that you just spewed. Please do not attack Christianity again, or you will receive a formal warning. Thank you.

 

[einstein]

Only unbelievers and skeptics attack Christianity with the garbage that you just spewed. Please do not attack Christianity again, or you will receive a formal warning. Thank you.

"When we say that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter"

If this is the "garbage" you are referring to, you should realize the source of the above quote is from one of earliest Church Fathers--Justin Martyr, First Apology 21.

I am not attacking Christianity at all. I am putting forward a legitmate and documented opinion which is well supported in many academic circles. Rather than admonishing me with a warning, perhaps you should try to defend your position with a reasoned argument. Isn't that what debate is all about?
:-?

 

[Solo]

Only unbelievers and skeptics attack Christianity with the garbage that you just spewed. Please do not attack Christianity again, or you will receive a formal warning. Thank you.

"When we say that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter"

If this is the "garbage" you are referring to, you should realize the source of the above quote is from one of earliest Church Fathers--Justin Martyr, First Apology 21.

I am not attacking Christianity at all. I am putting forward a legitmate and documented opinion which is well supported in many academic circles. Rather than admonishing me with a warning, perhaps you should try to defend your position with a reasoned argument. Isn't that what debate is all about?
:-?

Justin Martyr was trying to give the pagans of his time a truth based on their false perception of reality. Justin Martyr knew that Jesus is God, and apart from him was nothing created. He also knew that before paganism, God the Word would become Jesus Christ and die on the cross for all of God's chosen. This plan was in play before the foundation of the world, pre-paganism. Anything that suggests differently is a lie and an attack on Christianity.

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 2 Timothy 1:9-10

Here is some advise from Justyn Martyr in his First Apology:

• For we forewarn you to be on your guard, lest those demons whom we have been accusing should deceive you, and quite divert you from reading and understanding what we say. For they strive to hold you their slaves and servants; and sometimes by appearances in dreams, and sometimes by magical impositions, they subdue all who make no strong opposing effort for their own salvation. And thus do we also, since our persuasion by the Word, stand aloof from them (i.e., the demons), and follow the only unbegotten God through His Son-we who formerly delighted in fornication, but now embrace chastity alone; we who formerly used magical arts, dedicate ourselves to the good and unbegotten God; we who valued above all things the acquisition of wealth and possessions, now bring what we have into a common stock, and communicate to every one in need; we who hated and destroyed one another, and on account of their different manners would not live16 with men of a different tribe, now, since the coming of Christ, live familiarly with them, and pray for our enemies, and endeavour to persuade those who hate us unjustly to live comformably to the good precepts of Christ, to the end that they may become partakers with us of the same joyful hope of a reward from God the ruler of all. But lest we should seem to be reasoning sophistically, we consider it right, before giving you the promised17 explanation, to cite a few precepts given by Christ Himself. And be it yours, as powerful rulers, to inquire whether we have been taught and do teach these things truly. Brief and concise utterances fell from Him, for He was no sophist, but His word was the power of God.
  

Don't be deceived by demonic lies, deceptions, and doubts of who God is and his truth. You will be so much better off. And again, this is a Christian site. If you can not debate here without attacking the truths of Christianity, then you will be warned.
Thanks.

 

[AHIMSA]

And again, this is a Christian site. If you can not debate here without attacking the truths of Christianity, then you will be warned.
Thanks.

So if we want to debate theological and religious issues we must always presume and uphold the ultimate truth of Christianity? You consider this a stimulating discussion? Essentially, you want this site to be nothing more than a constant affirmation of what you already hold to be accurate.

Is "Christian truth" really that fragile?

 

[Solo]

And again, this is a Christian site. If you can not debate here without attacking the truths of Christianity, then you will be warned.
Thanks.

So if we want to debate theological and religious issues we must always presume and uphold the ultimate truth of Christianity? You consider this a stimulating discussion? Essentially, you want this site to be nothing more than a constant affirmation of what you already hold to be accurate.

Is "Christian truth" really that fragile?

This is a Christian site, and those of you who would rather attack the tenets of Christianity are in the wrong place. There are plenty of other forums that can address your dislike of the truth, so go congregate with them. If you are seeking God's truth, and are legitimately concerned then by all means stay and discuss; but do not attack the tenets of Christianity because this is a Christian forum, not a skeptics forum.

 

[Gary]

While I wait for einstein to comment on Rabbi Wein's statement that "It was an old Jewish tradition dating back to Biblical times that the death of the righteous and the innocent served as an exiation for the sins of the nation or the world" ....

Do you know that the Talmud also teaches that "the death of the righteous atones" (mitatan shel tsaddiqim mekapperet)??

:o :o

Seems like several Jews know something "einstein" does not know!!

:wink:

As this thread is about "Blood atonement - our Lord Jesus Christ" I was hoping that we would return to the topic.

"einstein" said he would comment on Rabbi Wein's statement. He has still not done that.

Secondly, are you aware that the Talmud (like the New Testament writers) teaches that "the death of the righteous atones"?

Let us read what another Jew, Shimon Kepha (Peter) had to say:

When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
1 Peter 2:23-25

Like the real Einstein, einstein seems to be also unable to face the truth.

:-?

 

[John the Baptist]

Your theology is full of holes...no contradiction of God's word with the atoning death of Jesus Christ our Saviour. Nothing is being added to or taken away at all, only the fulfillment of the prophesied Messiah from the Old Testament itself. In case you missed it, we're not under the law but under the dispensation of Grace by faith in Jesus Christ, the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

*****
---John here:
Here we go again, huh? Your posting remarks are right & all else are wrong :roll: !
You willfully break the Eternal Covenant & [you] are right back to where you started, and even by far the worse!]
Eternal Covenant of Hebrews 13:20 & Christs Words for you as in Luke 12:47-48.
*****

Joh 3:36 (KJV) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

****
Believeth? That is the done finished deal of the Total EVERLASTING GOSPEL of Revelation 14:6! Hebrews 11:13 finds these ones DEAD IN THE FAITH What belief do they die in? Ephesians 4:5 And they also understood James 1:15's FINISHED ENDING!
****


Do you live by the Levitical laws or the 600+ Mosaic laws? Do you pick up sticks on Sunday? If you break one of these laws, you've broken them all as one is as bad as the other. There is no grace for those that follow the law as Christ made it null and void when he was nailed to the cross.

Galatians 3:10-13 (KJV) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Galatians 5:4 (KJV) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

****
And the above?? :roll: Again, the confussion of Babylonian! Revelation 17:5. But you know better, huh?
Ill tell you what, you find [ONE] of your [posted] 'junkfood' above, twisted out of context verses where there is anywhere seen or even suggested that the Eternal 10 Commandment Covenant that GOD WROTE in the an Born Again heart, anything about Moses Law? Give that to us and then you might become creditable in you postings! (not to even mention your flip/flop on the Easter sun worship Law of Moses feast days)
Yet, most all posting still fall's in the warning's of 2 Cirinthians 4:2 & Revelation 22:18-19 in todays forums. And friend, that is the Master [complete] Word!
****

Rome did indeed crucify the Lord-he was turned over to the secular powers...but who instigated his crucifixion?

Acts 2:36 (KJV) Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Peter was talking to the Jews and convicted them where they stood for crucifying the King of Glory as the Word plainly shows.

****
About who killed Christ, and who are doing so again the [second time]? Gods conclusion? Under the law are these ones who twist, pervert, and deny the Word of God, and that is done OPENLY as is seen in Hebrews 6:6. : What is New God asks??? Then He gives the answer before these above ones can 'garble' it all up, as seen in Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15. And yes, these verses are only for them that BELIEVE ON HIM!
---John
****

 

[D46]

Your theology is full of holes...no contradiction of God's word with the atoning death of Jesus Christ our Saviour. Nothing is being added to or taken away at all, only the fulfillment of the prophesied Messiah from the Old Testament itself. In case you missed it, we're not under the law but under the dispensation of Grace by faith in Jesus Christ, the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

*****
---John here:
Here we go again, huh? Your posting remarks are right & all else are wrong :roll: !
You willfully break the Eternal Covenant & [you] are right back to where you started, and even by far the worse!]
Eternal Covenant of Hebrews 13:20 & Christs Words for you as in Luke 12:47-48.
*****

Joh 3:36 (KJV) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

****
Believeth? That is the done finished deal of the Total EVERLASTING GOSPEL of Revelation 14:6! Hebrews 11:13 finds these ones DEAD IN THE FAITH What belief do they die in? Ephesians 4:5 And they also understood James 1:15's FINISHED ENDING!
****


Do you live by the Levitical laws or the 600+ Mosaic laws? Do you pick up sticks on Sunday? If you break one of these laws, you've broken them all as one is as bad as the other. There is no grace for those that follow the law as Christ made it null and void when he was nailed to the cross.

Galatians 3:10-13 (KJV) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Galatians 5:4 (KJV) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

****
And the above?? :roll: Again, the confussion of Babylonian! Revelation 17:5. But you know better, huh?
Ill tell you what, you find [ONE] of your [posted] 'junkfood' above, twisted out of context verses where there is anywhere seen or even suggested that the Eternal 10 Commandment Covenant that GOD WROTE in the an Born Again heart, anything about Moses Law? Give that to us and then you might become creditable in you postings! (not to even mention your flip/flop on the Easter sun worship Law of Moses feast days)
Yet, most all posting still fall's in the warning's of 2 Cirinthians 4:2 & Revelation 22:18-19 in todays forums. And friend, that is the Master [complete] Word!
****

Rome did indeed crucify the Lord-he was turned over to the secular powers...but who instigated his crucifixion?

Acts 2:36 (KJV) Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Peter was talking to the Jews and convicted them where they stood for crucifying the King of Glory as the Word plainly shows.

****
About who killed Christ, and who are doing so again the [second time]? Gods conclusion? Under the law are these ones who twist, pervert, and deny the Word of God, and that is done OPENLY as is seen in Hebrews 6:6. : What is New God asks??? Then He gives the answer before these above ones can 'garble' it all up, as seen in Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15. And yes, these verses are only for them that BELIEVE ON HIM!
---John
****

What are you babbling about? Do you have a problem with the sacraficial death of Jesus Christ on the cross as the propitiation for our sins and that he paid the sin debt in full that day on Calvary? That is all I was getting at-there is no more sacrafice for sin...no slaughtering of animals as in the OT but Christ has become our sacrafice. I don't know where you're coming from. :-? What's more, if you believe contrary to this and what Paul said, I really don't care!

 

[einstein]

atonement

Gary: FYI I am familiar with some of Rabbi Wein's writings as well many of arguments in the Talmud, both Bavli and Yerushalami regarding these issues. Yes, the Talmud does refer to death of the righteous as atonement for sins in some places (Tanchuma, Achrei Mos 10) but then also presents opposing views as well.(Moade Kattan 28a). The majority view within the Talmud and within normative Judaism leads one to conclude that there is major difference between the Christian view of the goal or purpose behind the execution of Jesus and the fact that the death of the righteous "atones"

The majority opinion always takes into account the supremacy of Hashem's Torah which clearly teaches that human vicarious atonement is not part of the message of the Hebrew Bible. (see Deut 24:16 and Ezek 18:20 as just 2 examples)

Ezek 18:20 The soul that sins, it shall die; a son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, and a father shall not bear the iniquity of a son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself; and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

It couldn't be any clearer.

Hence the normative position in Judaism is that the death of the righteous atones because in the hearts of those believers within in the community such a death always leads to reflection, regret regarding our own sins and a heightened commitment to repent of those sins and live the remainder of our lives at a higher ethical standard. It is this process of repentance among those left behind for which the death of the righteous atones. It is not the death itself that atones but hopefully the process that is started when one becomes aware of that death, namely reflection and resignation to try to overcome the evil inclination leading to repentance, which atones.

This is in keeping more with the Jewish concept of atonement, which I realize may differ from the Christian concept.

 

[John the Baptist]

Your theology is full of holes...no contradiction of God's word with the atoning death of Jesus Christ our Saviour. Nothing is being added to or taken away at all, only the fulfillment of the prophesied Messiah from the Old Testament itself. In case you missed it, we're not under the law but under the dispensation of Grace by faith in Jesus Christ, the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

*****
---John here:
Here we go again, huh? Your posting remarks are right & all else are wrong :roll: !
You willfully break the Eternal Covenant & [you] are right back to where you started, and even by far the worse!]
Eternal Covenant of Hebrews 13:20 & Christs Words for you as in Luke 12:47-48.
*****

Joh 3:36 (KJV) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

****
Believeth? That is the done finished deal of the Total EVERLASTING GOSPEL of Revelation 14:6! Hebrews 11:13 finds these ones DEAD IN THE FAITH What belief do they die in? Ephesians 4:5 And they also understood James 1:15's FINISHED ENDING!
****


Do you live by the Levitical laws or the 600+ Mosaic laws? Do you pick up sticks on Sunday? If you break one of these laws, you've broken them all as one is as bad as the other. There is no grace for those that follow the law as Christ made it null and void when he was nailed to the cross.

Galatians 3:10-13 (KJV) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Galatians 5:4 (KJV) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

****
And the above?? :roll: Again, the confussion of Babylonian! Revelation 17:5. But you know better, huh?
Ill tell you what, you find [ONE] of your [posted] 'junkfood' above, twisted out of context verses where there is anywhere seen or even suggested that the Eternal 10 Commandment Covenant that GOD WROTE in the an Born Again heart, anything about Moses Law? Give that to us and then you might become creditable in you postings! (not to even mention your flip/flop on the Easter sun worship Law of Moses feast days)
Yet, most all posting still fall's in the warning's of 2 Cirinthians 4:2 & Revelation 22:18-19 in todays forums. And friend, that is the Master [complete] Word!
****

Rome did indeed crucify the Lord-he was turned over to the secular powers...but who instigated his crucifixion?

Acts 2:36 (KJV) Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Peter was talking to the Jews and convicted them where they stood for crucifying the King of Glory as the Word plainly shows.

****
About who killed Christ, and who are doing so again the [second time]? Gods conclusion? Under the law are these ones who twist, pervert, and deny the Word of God, and that is done OPENLY as is seen in Hebrews 6:6. : What is New God asks??? Then He gives the answer before these above ones can 'garble' it all up, as seen in Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15. And yes, these verses are only for them that BELIEVE ON HIM!
---John
****

What are you babbling about? Do you have a problem with the sacraficial death of Jesus Christ on the cross as the propitiation for our sins and that he paid the sin debt in full that day on Calvary? That is all I was getting at-there is no more sacrafice for sin...no slaughtering of animals as in the OT but Christ has become our sacrafice. I don't know where you're coming from. :-? What's more, if you believe contrary to this and what Paul said, I really don't care!

________
Is that your post or not? (John here)

"Your theology is full of holes...no contradiction of God's word with the atoning death of Jesus Christ our Saviour. Nothing is being added to or taken away at all, only the fulfillment of the prophesied Messiah from the Old Testament itself. In case you missed it, we're not under the law but under the dispensation of Grace by faith in Jesus Christ, the lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

The remark of 'if you believe contrary to this and what Paul said, I really don't care care!'

:fadein: Very believing in Christ like, huh?
I see where you are coming from. You do believe that if one 'really' Loves this Everlasting Gospel of Christ, they will keep His Seventh Day Sabbath Commandment! Thanks! Romans 2:13 & 1 John 2:4

 

[John the Baptist]

I disagree. It is YOUR theology based on Paul that is full of holes. It's your choice, though. You go on believing Paul, that the law is null and void and all that is required is faith in Jesus. I choose to believe what Hashem has stated and communicated through the greatest of prophets, Moses; the law is eternal.

Psalm 111:7-9: The works of His hands are truth and justice: all His commandments are faithful. Steadfast forever made in truth and unrightness. He sent redemption to His people; He commanded Hiss covenant forever His name is hole and awesome.

This is just one passage. There are many others throughout the Hebrew Bible. If, as a Christian you accept the Hebrew Bible as Hashem's word or at least the inspired word through his messengers, then you must accept the principle of the eternity of Torah. In that case, please refute on logical and consistent grounds the 2 objections posted to date. If, on the other hand, you choose to dismiss the Tanach and abide by what Paul teaches, you will find it easy to dismiss the 2 objections and any others I will be posting shortly.

If you choose the latter way, all I ask is don't tell me my theology is full of holes. It's just that my theology is internally consistent with the Tanach, while yours in simply unJewish.

BTW, if you believe as Paul instructs that the law is now invalid, please also explain Mat5:19 which states that whosoever breaks one of the least of the commandments and teaches others to do so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. Doesn't this suggest that Paul will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven, for doing exactly that?

______
John here: You see DC46, here is a poster that seems to relates Moses hand written Laws with the Eternal Covenant of the Godhead? How can one teach about one law & have folks not know which law you are talking about? Regardless of it being your 'full of holes' sarcasm, or any one else that might be sincere? Then comes I really don't care attitude!?? And, was it not Christ who died for us when we were yet sinners???

 

[D46]

John here: You see DC46, here is a poster that seems to relates Moses hand written Laws with the Eternal Covenant of the Godhead? How can one teach about one law & have folks not know which law you are talking about? Regardless of it being your 'full of holes' sarcasm, or any one else that might be sincere? Then comes I really don't care attitude!?? And, was it not Christ who died for us when we were yet sinners???

John-to be southern boys, we ain't communicating worth a hoot here!! Of course it was Christ who died for us. When did I indicate otherwise? What did Jesus say about the law? And of Paul...

Matthew 5:17 (KJV) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.


John 1:17 (KJV) For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:31 (KJV) Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 6:14 (KJV) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 6:15 (KJV) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Romans 8:3-4 (KJV) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

This is what I'm getting at. No man could serve God under the Law in that it brought about the knowledge that he was in sin, and that no amount of burning animal's flesh could atone in that it was imperfect until Christ came. The old sacrafices were continual... Doth sayeth the scriptures.

 

[John the Baptist]

John here: You see DC46, here is a poster that seems to relates Moses hand written Laws with the Eternal Covenant of the Godhead? How can one teach about one law & have folks not know which law you are talking about? Regardless of it being your 'full of holes' sarcasm, or any one else that might be sincere? Then comes I really don't care attitude!?? And, was it not Christ who died for us when we were yet sinners???

John-to be southern boys, we ain't communicating worth a hoot here!! Of course it was Christ who died for us. When did I indicate otherwise? What did Jesus say about the law? And of Paul...

Matthew 5:17 (KJV) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

***
OK: That was what I thought that you were telling the [Universe] in my first post. Then, you are saying that you love Christ, huh? "If you love Me keep My Commandments" He says. Then, I am seeing that you are into some real present day truth study! Psalms 77:13.

Then comes this FULFIL word??? It does not explain itself, so you help it along right?
So seeing that some of us are 'whatever it was that you said about us?? :roll: Maybe you can tell us all what happened when Christ died? You know the seperating Vail between the Holy Place & making the way into the Most Holy Place

And we need to know how Christ finished the Eternal Covenant Law that He is ministering before?? You know, what the High Priest did on the Day of Atonement. The Ark is still there with the Testimony in it according to the Holy Spirits Inspiration in Revelation 11:19, (unless you have finished that and have the Ark emptied?) and it is interesting in Revelation 11:18 for the 'time of the judgement of the DEAD also, just before the verse, huh?

----

John 1:17 (KJV) For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:31 (KJV) Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 6:14 (KJV) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 6:15 (KJV) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Romans 8:3-4 (KJV) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

****
The above verses that you give, they put you right back under the Eternal Covenant when one breakes them. I agree! Romans 8:1's 'NO CONDEMNATION' verse is to the ones that are [IN] CHRIST! When one steps out of the Everlasting Gospel (Revelation 14:6) he is right back to [willful sinning] if it is known! This, David in Psalms 19:13 (K.J.) calls Presumptious dangerous sinning. He talked of the Law & then used the Word [also] .. . If you can see any value in Numbers 35:26-28 as a lesson of seven cities, one might understand that Christ is our refudge.

My problem with this thread is that one needs to know the differance between the Eternal Covenant Law of God, & the law of Galatins 3:19 that was added because of sin, the one that Moses wrote in a book and placed in the side of the Ark, not inside where the Covenant was kept. The one is Eternal & the other was temporiary!
****

This is what I'm getting at. No man could serve God under the Law in that it brought about the knowledge that he was in sin, and that no amount of burning animal's flesh could atone in that it was imperfect until Christ came. The old sacrafices were continual... Doth sayeth the scriptures.

****
There is no dis/agreement with that it is and was the Eternal Gospel of Christ that saves. And that all of the saved will ONLY be saved in that way! Acts 4:12 And that NO one will be Born Again in the first place that will not accept the Eternal Covenant Conditions! Acts 5:32's OBEDIENCE!

In other words the ETERNAL UNIVERSAL COVENANT CANNOT EVER BE SEPARATED FROM THE ETERNAL EVERLASTING GOSPEL! That is the Everlasting Gospel! See 2 Corinthians 3:3 for 'Christ's Epistle' to us!!
****

 

[Solo]

John here: You see DC46, here is a poster that seems to relates Moses hand written Laws with the Eternal Covenant of the Godhead? How can one teach about one law & have folks not know which law you are talking about? Regardless of it being your 'full of holes' sarcasm, or any one else that might be sincere? Then comes I really don't care attitude!?? And, was it not Christ who died for us when we were yet sinners???

John-to be southern boys, we ain't communicating worth a hoot here!! Of course it was Christ who died for us. When did I indicate otherwise? What did Jesus say about the law? And of Paul...

Matthew 5:17 (KJV) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

***
OK: That was what I thought that you were telling the [Universe] in my first post. Then, you are saying that you love Christ, huh? "If you love Me keep My Commandments" He says. Then, I am seeing that you are into some real present day truth study! Psalms 77:13.

Then comes this FULFIL word??? It does not explain itself, so you help it along right?
So seeing that some of us are 'whatever it was that you said about us?? :roll: Maybe you can tell us all what happened when Christ died? You know the seperating Vail between the Holy Place & making the way into the Most Holy Place

And we need to know how Christ finished the Eternal Covenant Law that He is ministering before?? You know, what the High Priest did on the Day of Atonement. The Ark is still there with the Testimony in it according to the Holy Spirits Inspiration in Revelation 11:19, (unless you have finished that and have the Ark emptied?) and it is interesting in Revelation 11:18 for the 'time of the judgement of the DEAD also, just before the verse, huh?

----

John 1:17 (KJV) For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:31 (KJV) Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 6:14 (KJV) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 6:15 (KJV) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Romans 8:3-4 (KJV) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

****
The above verses that you give, they put you right back under the Eternal Covenant when one breakes them. I agree! Romans 8:1's 'NO CONDEMNATION' verse is to the ones that are [IN] CHRIST! When one steps out of the Everlasting Gospel (Revelation 14:6) he is right back to [willful sinning] if it is known! This, David in Psalms 19:13 (K.J.) calls Presumptious dangerous sinning. He talked of the Law & then used the Word [also] .. . If you can see any value in Numbers 35:26-28 as a lesson of seven cities, one might understand that Christ is our refudge.

My problem with this thread is that one needs to know the differance between the Eternal Covenant Law of God, & the law of Galatins 3:19 that was added because of sin, the one that Moses wrote in a book and placed in the side of the Ark, not inside where the Covenant was kept. The one is Eternal & the other was temporiary!
****

This is what I'm getting at. No man could serve God under the Law in that it brought about the knowledge that he was in sin, and that no amount of burning animal's flesh could atone in that it was imperfect until Christ came. The old sacrafices were continual... Doth sayeth the scriptures.

****
There is no dis/agreement with that it is and was the Eternal Gospel of Christ that saves. And that all of the saved will ONLY be saved in that way! Acts 4:12 And that NO one will be Born Again in the first place that will not accept the Eternal Covenant Conditions! Acts 5:32's OBEDIENCE!

In other words the ETERNAL UNIVERSAL COVENANT CANNOT EVER BE SEPARATED FROM THE ETERNAL EVERLASTING GOSPEL! That is the Everlasting Gospel! See 2 Corinthians 3:3 for 'Christ's Epistle' to us!!
****

Can a person be obedient prior to being saved? Is it obedience that saves a person, or the obedience of Jesus that saves a person?

 

[DivineNames]

Paul was a Jew. So were the apostles. All the New Testament writers (except Luke) were Jews. The initial converts were all Jews. The first 3,000 converts were Jews.

What did they all realise that you have yet to see and understand??

:-?

And?

A Jewish sect believed such and such, so it must be true? In matters of religion, some people can believe just about anything...