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Bible Study Book of Hebrews

Oh, I agree, a way of seeing maturity is definitely through the eyes of obedience. But if we look at what the writer says about our LORD, it says that He learned obedience.

Obedience is also taught. Obedience is a sign of maturity, the two cannot be seperatated, but it is clear in the writers mind that constant practice of dicernment is the key to maturity. Christ 'suffered', and through that suffering it says that He learned. We too, when we 'suffer' learn. But I think what the writer is indicating that we should not put the cart before the horse.
 
Good luck to any and all who plan on studying Hebrews.

One bit of advice I'd like to pass on from my personal studies, and this applies not only to Hebrews, but any book of the Bible;

When you begin to read a certain book, it really does help to keep in mind a few thing:

Who is this written to?

Who is it written from? (when applicable)

Why is it being written?

What is the grand theme?

This was the most significant post on this thread and it was totally ignored. Because of this you do not and will not understand the full message of Hebrews. All of the word studies and discussions will not substitute for this. Why don't you answer this man's questions? How else can you know the purpose of the writer?
 
I was sure that you agreed!;) But you know me. I even like to jump around 'ahead' some huh? The verses below are PACKED with the Maturity requirements. First we are PARTAKERS meaning Rom. 8:1 No Condemnation. Then we see what God REQUIRES in verse 6. Regardless of how it comes about, God still takes the credits or blame.

And verse 8 shows that we can be severed from God once that we are Partakers. (meaning Born Again) And how does one do away with Godly Chastisements?? I see it as passing over hard God REQUIRED DUTIES! Eze. 9. Even as babes in the start process. Can you remember the first time that you ever taught a lesson in sun school or preached the first sermon in front of a group?

I have done both many times, and it might be easier to be horse whipped at times? (I am talking about human wants) Say that you had been up most or all of the night with required Godly duties? Then you are to bring the morning message at church?? The first few minutes will be rough, but when one steps out in obedience we are promised Phil. 4:13 huh! I remember a Dr. Koach years ago telling the class that the first time that he taught a class he passed out. And he was quite some guy!
:fight

The Bottom/line 'i' believe is the Partaking ones wanting to be loved, & liked. Which is natural, but we cannot let it stand in front of the Masters required duties. And surely even in the home we see discipline neglected in todays setting.

--Elijah


Heb. 12
[3] For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
[4] Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
[5] And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

[6] For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

[7] If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

[8] But if ye be without chastisement, [whereof all are partakers,] then are ye bastards, and not sons.

 
Oh, I agree, a way of seeing maturity is definitely through the eyes of obedience. But if we look at what the writer says about our LORD, it says that He learned obedience.

Obedience is also taught. Obedience is a sign of maturity, the two cannot be seperatated, but it is clear in the writers mind that constant practice of dicernment is the key to maturity. Christ 'suffered', and through that suffering it says that He learned. We too, when we 'suffer' learn. But I think what the writer is indicating that we should not put the cart before the horse.
I agree.

But maturity is not found in just obedience.

That's why I gave the example of adultery.
You can "obey" the law without ever understanding the dynamics of "why" it is wrong.

I believe this ties into "written on the heart".

You could obey the stone law of adultery in deed only, but still have a heart full of lust for every woman you see .
 
Isa. 42
[18] Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see.
[19] Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD's servant?
[20] Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.
[21] The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will [magnify] the law, and [make it honourable].

God always required His law be kept.
 
This was the most significant post on this thread and it was totally ignored. Because of this you do not and will not understand the full message of Hebrews. All of the word studies and discussions will not substitute for this. Why don't you answer this man's questions? How else can you know the purpose of the writer?

I am really sorry you feel that way Jasher. I am not sure if you have read all the posts, from page one onward. I believe that if you would, you would then see that the questions have been answered. I agree, it is a very needful thing to answer these questions before grasping the true intent of the writer. But we cannot just keep studying that aspect or we will never move forward. I hope you understand.
 
Hebrews 6
(1) Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
(2) Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

aphistemi is a verb.
Apostasia and apostasion are the noun forms of this verb.

aphistemi (verb) = to abandon, to walk away, to refuse to stand firm
apostasia (feminine noun) = apostasy, rebellion, defection
apostasion (neuter noun) = abandonment, walking away, divorce
The verb aphistemi, which is formed from the Greek words apo (away from) and histemi (to make a stand, to stand firm, to be unwavering).
In other words, departing from standing firm (ie. leave, walk away from).
Or, to put it another way, MOVE - don't stay in the same place.

Understand that the author is not saying "FORGET" about those principles.
God told Abraham to MOVE away from his home and family.
God did not say FORGET about his home and family.


So, the of Hebrews is telling them to MOVE on from the principles of the doctrine of Christ, MOVING on towards perfection.

On the surface, this seems rather odd that the author would suggest departing from the principles of the doctrine of Christ.
I mean, are we supposed to abandon the principles of the doctrine of Christ?
In a sense, that is exactly what the author is saying.
But we must understand his motive in telling them such.

There is a DANGER in being stagnant, staying on milk, and not growing.
They need to go on into perfection.






I'll be back later to explain what I think the author is conveying.

God bless our studies.
 
Hebrews 6
(1) Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
(2) Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
There are 6 things the author says to MOVE on from:
repentance from dead works
faith toward God
baptisms (plural)
laying on of hands
resurrection
judgment
I'm going to discuss them one at a time.


"repentance from dead works"



Why should we MOVE on from that?
Because that foundation has been laid by Christ.
YOU cannot lay that foundation or add any part of that foundation.
It's a done deal.

The law of sacrifice for your dead works was not to show that YOU were righteous. If anything, it was to show how unrighteous you are.
The law was to point to the 100% perfect righteousness of Christ.
And that sacrifice, once and for all, is a done deal.


The author will expound a bit more on this in chapter 9, and we can discuss it in more detail then:

Hebrews 9
(12) Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
(13) For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
(14) How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
All our righteousness is filthy rags (Is 64:6).

The apostle Paul states in Philippians 3 that if anyone has a right to brag about the zeal of God and obeying the law, he does.
But Paul explains that all of that was dung (Ph 3:8).

In other words, it's not about what you do.
It's about what Christ does.

And then Paul says:

Philippians 3
(9) And be found in him (Christ), not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
And then Paul adds:
Philippians 3
(14) I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Paul is MOVING on.
He's in a race.
Just entering a race will not benefit.
The prize only goes to one who actually runs (MOVES) toward the finish line in the race.

1 Corinthians 9
(24) Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
And the author of Hebrews expounds on this in chapter 12, which we will also discuss further at that time:
Hebrews 12
(1) Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,


As the words of the theme song on the old TV series The Jeffersons .....
"We're moving on up! "
 
I am really sorry you feel that way Jasher. I am not sure if you have read all the posts, from page one onward. I believe that if you would, you would then see that the questions have been answered. I agree, it is a very needful thing to answer these questions before grasping the true intent of the writer. But we cannot just keep studying that aspect or we will never move forward. I hope you understand.

I don’t know what you are sorry about as I was just stating a fact. And no - it doesn’t come across anywhere in this thread of what the historical purpose of Hebrews is really directed to.

Who wrote it?
Hebrews smacks of the thinking of Paul. Best info is that Paul wrote this originally in Hebrew (which was lost to history) and the letter extant that we have was translated into Greek by Luke who wrote for the Disciples and Apostles. Thus the thinking was crafted by Paul, but the style was that of Luke. But there is no documented proof of this.

To whom was the letter written?
Specifically to the Messianic Hebrew Christians in Rome.

When was it written?
Some time after the burning of Rome in July of 64AD and the Spring of 65AD. It was written in that 10 month interval. After the fire, Nero was fomenting hatred against the Christians via the Roman citizens who had lost everything in the fire of Rome, which consumed 10 out of 14 precincts in the city: the fire burned for 9 days. Roman citizens lost their homes, possessions, businesses, and they were highly susceptible to Nero’s accusations toward the Christians. History believes that it was Nero himself that caused the fire to clear an area for his new building projects. The book of Hebrews says that they had not yet come to resist unto blood. This happened later in the spring of 65AD when Nero started to cruelly kill Christians. Over the next three years he killed an estimated 5,000 Christians. The Christians in that era were suffering harassment and persecution from the Roman populace. It was a very grave and serious time in history. You wouldn't know this after sensing the flippant attitudes on forums like this.

Why was it written?
The Messianic Christians were reverting back to Judaism to escape persecution. At this particular time it was only the Christians and not the Jews who were being persecuted.

What was the historical context?
The book of Hebrews was written to the Messianic Christian Jews to convince them that they should not go back to Judaism, but to contend for their Christian New Covenant faith. The book is a review of Jewish history and a comparison of the Old and New Covenants. The great theme of the book is that the New Covenant is a better covenant (Than the Old to which they were returning to - to escape persecution.)

Here is just one example of what I am speaking of…
Under the Old Covenant there was no sacrifice for willful and deliberate sins. The best example that I can think of is when The Israelite was gathering sticks for a fire when he knew this was against the Old Covenant Law.

Numbers 15:27-36 (KJV)
And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. [28] And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the Lord, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him. [29] Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

[30] But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, [willfully] whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the Lord; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. [31] Because he hath despised the word of the Lord, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

[32] And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. [33] And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. [34] And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. [35] And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. [36] And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.

There was no sacrifice for willful sin under the Old Covenant - only for sins done in ignorance. Proven willful sinning was punishable by death. In this case stoning.
Under the New Covenant, which is a better covenant - there is forgiveness for willful and deliberate sinning. Big Improvement.

1 John 2:1 (NASB)
My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
No differentiation between willful and un-willful.

Another reference.

Acts 2:36-38 (NASB)
"Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ-- this Jesus whom you crucified."
[37] Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?" [38] And Peter said to them, "Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

What Peter basically said was that God had surreptitiously brought about the cross and now that his purposes had been fulfilled in the sacrifice of his son - everyone could come and receive forgiveness. Is that grace or what? Don’t tell me that there was not willful sin on the part of the religious leaders of that day. They may not have repented, but they were offered the opportunity.
Under the new covenant there was forgiveness through our advocate for willful sin.

Hebrews 10:26-31 (NASB)
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

This is not the New Covenant that he is speaking about but rather the Old Covenant. Remember the Hebrews were reverting back to Judaism and the Old Covenant.

[27] but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. [28] Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

Still speaking of the Old Covenant - good example of the guy picking up sticks.
 
29] How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? [30] For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge His people." [31] It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

You trample underfoot the Son of God by ignoring the cross and going back to Judaism. All of the Old Testament symbols, types and shadows in the OT were pointing forward to the crucifixion. God offered us the Grace of the New Covenant - to go back to Judaism is an insult to the spirit of Grace - isn’t it?

You have to hold in mind all of these things as you read the book of Hebrews. It's not what you think.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Hebrews is about staying faithful and the possibility of falling away due to unbelief.

Surely Heb. 11:13 finds these most all from O.T. times, Even DEAD Abe, who DIED IN THE FAITH. And 'i' agree with you + the originator of the thread. (I think?:salute)

I find it for 'myself' mind boggeling how any can just apply the end of the book to just those ones or vise/versia. God's Word is not Eternal:screwloose Matt. 4:4 & 2 Tim. 3:16 is just meaning a fraction of Christ's Word, and the falling away is just an possibility??? Interesting in that thought, when one thinks of Lucifer as satan along with his rebellion in heaven. (But I do think that I follow you there?)

Regardless, 'i' do believe that Heb. chapter 5-6 covers this, along with some who just might not be out of chapter 5 yet? (but I don't think that that is the author of the thread, nor you?) And for this study, it requires way more postings to get even 'some' of these Truths out of self & to others!

--Elijah
 
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I don't want to derail the thread, just to ask Elijah a question. If it'd be better in its own thread, then perhaps you'd like to start one.

Question:

On several occasions now, you've mentioned this thing about Lucifer and his rebellion.

Where do you get it from?

Thanks

Asyncritus
 
I don't want to derail the thread, just to ask Elijah a question. If it'd be better in its own thread, then perhaps you'd like to start one.

Question:

On several occasions now, you've mentioned this thing about Lucifer and his rebellion.

Where do you get it from?

Thanks

Asyncritus

I see satan as the fallen one in Rev. 12 (with several names) who was in the Garden of Eden even before the creation of earth! Christ saw him fall fro heaven as I see it. As Christ told Peter to get behind me satan, Inspiration also gives the Eze. 28 seen in the Prince of Tyrus in parallel to Luciffer, as I see it. Clearly the prince was not in heaven, nor a covering Cherub over the Godheads Ark, nor created.

And per/say on the Book of Heb. TOPIC?? Christ is TODAY AT PRESENT our High Priest in the Throne Room of the Most Holy Place where the Ark of God STILL IS! And Rev. 11:18-19 IS THIS TIME OF JUDGEMET when Christ's Ministry is finally Finished.

Also I see the rebellion compared to heavens in Matt. 25. (verse 1) which at the start had 1/2 in sin, [in heaven] and in the end of that starting point, 'i' find 1/3 only sinning the sin against the Holy Ghost, that are not saved, while the small remnant being saved by the same 'future' faith In Christ that saves us. Heb. 11:13.

And Inspiration tel's us in Isa. 14:12-14 what the problem was. Without a doubt (for me) Luciffer was the Godheads First of creation to hold the highest of positions in heaven. Created PERFECT as seen in Eze. 28, yet HE WAS NOT CREATED FULLY MATURE. (that is what freedom of worship is all about)

And 'i' say first for another reason also. Eccl.1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 finds nothing of Salvational importance new. Yet, what was before earth creation? And Adams first born son rebelled & became satan's first convert. As did the Lords first of creation.

More?? Much, Eze. 28 finds satan the serpent calling the Godhead Liars from the start! he hates the Godhead with his satanic passion & attacks Christ at every point of truth with his counterfiet of self worship. his chief attack is against the EPISTLE (2 Cor. 3:3) Moral Love letter Character of Christ inside of the Ark that he was once standing over. And there is no doubt of what 7th Day Sabbath of the Godhead's that he hates the most of all ten! Dan. 7:25. (check by reading around here?!)

OK: Will he be 'popular'?? Try Numbers 16:1-3, Matt. 7 Broadway, Rev. 17:1-5's whole group + Rev. 3:9 & ibid 16

So you can see that your question was right on target as 'i' see it. Rev. 12:17 are 7th Day Sabbath keepers who LOVE Christ Dearly! Who keep the Commands of God + the TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST.

--Elijah
 
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