Both Apostles Are Right!

[WIP]

"I wonder.....how many "good works" must one do before he/she no longer "believes/hopes in vain?" WIP

One more good work then you think.

I believe Jesus did do the work for us.

Absolutely agree!!

I hope it was understood that my question was aimed at those who believe we must work to earn our salvation.

 

[Davies]

I hope it was understood that my question was aimed at those who believe we must work to earn our salvation.

Hi WIP,

I understood your question very well.

This Scripture has been burned into my brain:

Ephesians 2:8-9
New King James Version (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

I know Jethro pointed out a clear passage in Titus, but what about this verse? No matter how you categorize a work, the deeds done in Christ never justifies a person before God. Why, because the faith that produces good works is a gift of God. Also, I'd like to add that to be in Christ is to be justified.

I've heard the argument that the, "it is the gift of God," refers to salvation and not faith. I don't agree with that argument, but even if I was wrong and it was salvation, then the point remains the same. No one will boast in heaven that they kept themselves saved by the good deeds they performed. We will all acknowledge that it was the grace of God that kept us, and wonder and marvel that God saved us with all the implications actualized of what it means to be saved!

- Davies

 

[JMJ]

I wonder.....how many "good works" must one do before he/she no longer "believes/hopes in vain?" When would one finally realize and feel assured they were successful? Prior to arriving at that point, it seems life bears no meaning. Christ did the work for us didn't he? All we need to do is respond to His calling.

Jesus' sacrifice made it possible for the following prophecy to be fulfilled:
For whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

This prophecy does not state that everyone who is saved will also be approved to enter into eternal life.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV)
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Now what? Is this all that is necessary in order to inherit eternal life? No, it is not.

Ephesians 2:10 explains why we were saved by Christ's grace. We were saved for a purpose and we must fulfill God's purpose for us if we want to be approved to enter into eternal life after we die:

Ephesians 2:10 NIV
For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Unless we do the good works/produce the good fruits that God has prepared for us to do, we will not inherit eternal life.

Matthew 21:43 (NKJV)43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.

Jesus said that few will be saved. He said that we must make every effort to enter through the narrow door into heaven because many professing believers will be turned away because of their evil works/deeds.

Luke 13:23-27 (NIV)
23 Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?†24 He said to them, 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’ 26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’

Matthew 7:20-23 (NIV) 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

The Father's will is that we do the good works (produce the good fruits) that He has prepared for us to do (produce).

Matthew 21:43 (NKJV)
43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.


On Judgment Day, it will be the persons/sheep who did good works (who did the Father's will) who will inherit eternal life and it will be the persons/goats who did not do good works (who did not do the Father's will) who will not inherit eternal life.

Paul did all he could do so that he would not fall away from the faith and thereby be disqualified to enter into eternal life:

1 Corinthians 9:27 (ESV)
27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

So, if you want to be reasonably sure that you will inherit eternal life after you die, heed the following:

2 Peter 1:1-11 ESV
1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2 May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Until we meet Jesus at the time of death, it is best to follow Paul's advice which is:

Philippians 2:12 NIV
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

Christ reconciled us with/to His Father as His gift to us. We must maintain this reconciliation with Him and His Father until we die if we want to be approved by Him to enter into eternal life after we die. Jesus' gift gives us hope of eternal life.

We must continue in the faith until death if we want to be approved to inherit eternal life.

Acts 14:21-22 (ESV)
21 When they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch, 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.

 

[JMJ]

"...when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life." (Titus 3:4-7 NIV)


"...not because of righteous things we had done..."

It doesn't get any clearer than that. I know what JMJ will debate in the passage, so when he/she brings the arguments up we'll examine the passage closer to see how those arguments can not stand.

There are two parts to the salvation process. There is the initial reconciliation with God and then there is the continuation of the reconciliation with God until death.

Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. (This is the first part which Jesus does for us with no help from us.) 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (This is the second part which we do for God until we die with the help of the Holy Spirit.)

Both parts of the salvation process are necessary in order for a person to be approved to enter into eternal life after his death.

Jesus was not joking when He stated:

Matthew 19:16-19 (NIV)
16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
18 “Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”

Paul was not joking when he said:

1 Corinthians 7:19 (NKJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

 

[dadof10]

Pauls teaches us that a man is not justified (MADE righteous) by works of the law.

James' teaches us how a man is justified (SHOWN to be righteous) by works of the law.

To justify means to both, be declared righteous, and be shown to be righteous. I shared the dictionary link to show this.




Only if his lack of good works is because he has rejected God's forgiveness for his sins, just as good works are because a person has accepted God's forgiveness of sins--his good works 'justifying' him, or showing him, as one who has received the forgiveness of God in Christ. He is not made righteous by those goods works. He is shown to be righteous by those good works.

That is how both Paul and James can be correct and it not be a 'faith + works = salvation' doctrine.

If a person who has faith refuses to do the "good works" (however you want to define this term), will he still be saved? If your answer is "yes", you have, in effect simply stated we are justified by faith alone. The works are relegated to non-salvific window dressing.

We can twist and turn on this topic a hundred different ways, but this is the crux. The "Faith saves, works only show that salvation" crowd still needs to reconcile James' statements, which say point blank "we are not justified faith alone, but by deeds."

 

[Davies]

We can twist and turn on this topic a hundred different ways, but this is the crux. The "Faith saves, works only show that salvation" crowd still needs to reconcile James' statements, which say point blank "we are not justified faith alone, but by deeds."

Hi dadof10,

Not only the faith alone people need to reconcile Paul's doctrine with James', but the 'justified by works' people need to reconcile them as well. I think Jethro Bodine explained it pretty well, along with the OP.

Romans 3:24-26
New King James Version (NKJV)
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Romans 3:27
New King James Version (NKJV)
Boasting Excluded

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.

- Davies

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The "Faith saves, works only show that salvation" crowd still needs to reconcile James' statements, which say point blank "we are not justified faith alone, but by deeds."

You won't get it until you realize that 'justify' means both, to be made righteous, and to be shown to be righteous. That is what reconciles Paul's teaching with James' teaching.

The context clearly shows James to be using the word in the sense of being shown to be righteous, not made righteous as Paul teaches. The person who has been justified (made righteous) by faith, apart from righteous works, is the one who then has the works of the law ('love your neighbor as yourself' Lev. 19:18) which shows them to have the righteousness of God. Their works show them to have the faith that makes a person righteous. They are not made righteous by those works. Faith does that. Works show us to be righteous.

If someone wants to insist that James is saying we are made righteous by our works (and defy what the context so clearly shows) they are saying there is indeed a clear contradiction of truth right in our own Bibles. Who wants to go on record as saying there is?

"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds." (James 2:18 NIV)

 

[dadof10]

Hi dadof10,

Not only the faith alone people need to reconcile Paul's doctrine with James', but the 'justified by works' people need to reconcile them as well. I think Jethro Bodine explained it pretty well, along with the OP.

Romans 3:24-26
New King James Version (NKJV)
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Romans 3:27
New King James Version (NKJV)
Boasting Excluded

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.

- Davies

Howdy Davies,

I think James and Paul are perfectly reconciled with the simple view that Paul is preaching against specifically "works of the Law" and James is preaching in favor of works of Charity. They are two different "works". One doesn't save, the other does. We must cooperate with the Grace of God, and if we don't, we lose our salvation. The view that we are justified by faith alone is a direct contradiction of the biblical principle in James, so is necessarily ruled out. If, as you say, both apostles are right (which I agree with), to relegate Charity to a by-product of faith really takes some creative interpretation of James, and other verses that make the same case.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Howdy Davies,

I think James and Paul are perfectly reconciled with the simple view that Paul is preaching against specifically "works of the Law" and James is preaching in favor of works of Charity. They are two different "works". One doesn't save, the other does. We must cooperate with the Grace of God, and if we don't, we lose our salvation. The view that we are justified by faith alone is a direct contradiction of the biblical principle in James, so is necessarily ruled out. If, as you say, both apostles are right (which I agree with), to relegate Charity to a by-product of faith really takes some creative interpretation of James, and other verses that make the same case.

Certainly these charitable acts that you say save a person are righteous works. The Bible plainly tells us we are NOT saved by doing righteous works:

"5...he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy." (Titus 3:5 NIV)

Our righteous works show us to be righteous. They do not make us righteous. As James says, a faith that does not show itself in "love your neighbor as yourself" (Leviticus 19:18) is a faith that can not save. That is a faith that did not justify (make righteous) the person who has it. Only a faith that changes a person into a new creation that loves according to the law has a faith that can save them.

"Can such faith save them?" (James 2:14 NIV)

 

[Slider]

I think James and Paul are perfectly reconciled with the simple view that Paul is preaching against specifically "works of the Law" and James is preaching in favor of works of Charity. They are two different "works". One doesn't save, the other does.

dadof10,

Just for clarification, what are you speaking of when you say "charity"?

 

[dadof10]

You won't get it until you realize that 'justify' means both, to be made righteous, and to be shown to be righteous. That is what reconciles Paul's teaching with James' teaching.

The context clearly shows James to be using the word in the sense of being shown to be righteous, not made righteous as Paul teaches. The person who has been justified (made righteous) by faith, apart from righteous works, is the one who then has the works of the law ('love your neighbor as yourself' Lev. 19:18) which shows them to have the righteousness of God. Their works show them to have the faith that makes a person righteous. They are not made righteous by those works. Faith does that. Works show us to be righteous.

If someone wants to insist that James is saying we are made righteous by our works (and defy what the context so clearly shows) they are saying there is indeed a clear contradiction of truth right in our own Bibles. Who wants to go on record as saying there is?

"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds." (James 2:18 NIV)

You are only posting half a verse and half a thought to "prove" your point.

But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. (James (RSV) 2)

Here, James is contrasting this "some one" with the "man" in verse 14, and arguing that both are needed for salvation.

Verse 14:
What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? (James (RSV) 2)

"Man" says he has faith, yet doesn't have works.

Verse 18:
But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. (James (RSV) 2)

"Someone" says he has works, but has no faith.

The point is not that what comes before and after this half-verse is a teaching on actions showing justification. The point is faith and works (Charity, as opposed to works of the law) are both required for justification.

James goes on to use Abraham as an example of a person who's actions (done in faith, obviously) justified him. How else do you explain "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?" He was justified when he offered Isaac. Scripture mentions three "justifications" for Abraham, but that's another thread.

"You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. (James (RSV) 2)

What "completed" his faith? What fulfilled the Scripture? His obedience, in faith, to God.

As I asked in my last post, do you think if Abraham had refused, he would have been justified? Not according to James, because justification happened "when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar", not before.

Picking half a verse out of an entire teaching and attempting to make it the focus of the teaching is not good exegesis.

 

[dadof10]

dadof10,

Just for clarification, what are you speaking of when you say "charity"?

Christian Charity. "The greatest of these is love". It includes care for the poor (as James mentions), but goes beyond it to mean love of God and neighbor, and the corresponding actions. Basically, obedience to God, which effects salvation. If you don't obey, how can you be saved?

 

[JMJ]

If a person who has faith refuses to do the "good works" (however you want to define this term), will he still be saved? If your answer is "yes", you have, in effect simply stated we are justified by faith alone. The works are relegated to non-salvific window dressing.

We can twist and turn on this topic a hundred different ways, but this is the crux. The "Faith saves, works only show that salvation" crowd still needs to reconcile James' statements, which say point blank "we are not justified faith alone, but by deeds."

We are judged on Judgment Day according to our works/deeds. We are not judged on Judgment Day according to our faith alone. Faith is not even mentioned in the Scripture passages that depict the Judgment of mankind.

Romans 2:5-11 (NKJV)
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

Paul was writing the preceding as a warning to Roman Christians as noted below:

Romans 1:7 NKJV
To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:

Works of the law of Moses do not save any Christian person.

However, Paul writes to Timothy that his continuation in the Christian doctrine will continue to save him and his witness will also save those to whom he preaches.

1 Timothy 5:4 (NIV)
4 But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God.

1 Timothy 4:16 (NKJV)
16 Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.


If Timothy was actually saved for all time by one previous action as many believe today, (the OSAS doctrine or the Eternal Security doctrine), then Paul would not have ever written this to Timothy.

Salvation is a two-part process. First, Jesus reconciles us to His Father as His gift to us; we then continue this reconciliation by producing good fruits.

We are judged on Judgment Day by our fruits alone.

Matthew 7:19-24 (NIV)
19 Every tree [person] that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ 24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.

What happens to all the people who do not produce good fruit? They get cut down and thrown into hell fire.

This is why James warns:

James 1:21-27 (NKJV)
21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.
22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.
26 Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. 27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

This is why Jesus warns:

Luke 13:25-27 (NIV)
25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
26 “Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
27 “But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’

Whom does God accept for eternal fellowship with Him in heaven?

Acts 10:34-35 NKJV
34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You are only posting half a verse and half a thought to "prove" your point.

But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. (James (RSV) 2)

Here, James is contrasting this "some one" with the "man" in verse 14, and arguing that both are needed for salvation.

Both are needed in that a faith that produces righteous works is the faith that saves. A faith that does not change a person into a new creation who loves has a faith that can not save him. They are NOT both needed in that a man is made righteous by the good he does. I shared the verse in Titus that PLAINLY says that.

Verse 14:
What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? (James (RSV) 2)

"Man" says he has faith, yet doesn't have works.

How do you not see it? The answer to his rhetorical question is 'no'. A faith that does not find expression in works ('love your neighbor as yourself') cannot save a person. Paul says the same thing:

"The only thing that counts (toward justification--see context) is faith..."

What kind of faith?

"...faith expressing itself through love." (Galatians 5:6 NIV)

The faith that saves, the faith that justifies, is the faith that finds expression through the lawful command to "love your neighbor as yourself" (Leviticus 19:18). A faith that does not find expression through love is a faith that cannot justify (make) a person righteous.

This is what Paul means when he says "31 Do we...nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law (by this faith)." (Romans 3:31 NIV parenthesis mine) Saving faith does not nullify the law...it upholds and keeps it! The law summarized in "love your neighbor as yourself".

Verse 18:
But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. (James (RSV) 2)

"Someone" says he has works, but has no faith.

The point is not that what comes before and after this half-verse is a teaching on actions showing justification. The point is faith and works (Charity, as opposed to works of the law) are both required for justification.

Charity IS works of the law. That is why faith upholds the law. Because faith in God's forgiveness and mercy is what causes us to love others.

James goes on to use Abraham as an example of a person who's actions (done in faith, obviously) justified him. How else do you explain "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?"

I'm glad you're bringing this up. Even there it shows us that Abraham's 'works' SHOWED God that he believed him.

"Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”

Abraham was 'justified' by his actions in that they SHOWED him to be one who fears God. This is what James is teaching us, and which is plainly seen in the account itself.

He was justified when he offered Isaac.

Yes. He was SHOWN to have believed God's promise by the fact that he acted in full surety of that promise. To be shown to be righteous is also called 'being justified'. Just as being made righteous is also called 'being justified'. If you do not believe me look it up in the dictionary. And there is an example of this other use of 'justify' in the gospels that illustrates what it means to 'show' (justify) oneself as being righteous.

Scripture mentions three "justifications" for Abraham, but that's another thread.

"You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. (James (RSV) 2)

What "completed" his faith? What fulfilled the Scripture? His obedience, in faith, to God.

As I asked in my last post, do you think if Abraham had refused, he would have been justified?

He would have been showing that he really did not believe God's promise made to him...the promise that God had earlier declared him righteous for believing. His actions are how God knew he had really believed him (God already knew of course. The story is for our benefit so that we will be careful to have a faith that causes us to respond as if we really do believe).

Not according to James, because justification happened "when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar", not before.

Abraham was made righteous ('justified') when he believed. Abraham was shown to be righteous (also called 'justified') when he acted as a result of his faith. If he had not been made righteous by faith he would not have had actions that would show him to be righteous by that faith. Understand?

Picking half a verse out of an entire teaching and attempting to make it the focus of the teaching is not good exegesis.

I'll walk through the passage verse by verse if you want. Actually I'd prefer that we did that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Christian Charity. "The greatest of these is love". It includes care for the poor (as James mentions), but goes beyond it to mean love of God and neighbor, and the corresponding actions. Basically, obedience to God, which effects salvation. If you don't obey, how can you be saved?

If you aren't saved, how can you obey?

That is the proper way to understand and reconcile Paul's and James' teachings.

Righteous people (made righteous by their faith in the forgiveness of God in Christ) do righteous things. Their righteous works show them to possess the faith that makes a person righteous. A faith that can not produce good works is not the faith that makes a person righteous.

 

[dadof10]

We are judged on Judgment Day according to our works/deeds. We are not judged on Judgment Day according to our faith alone. Faith is not even mentioned in the Scripture passages that depict the Judgment of mankind

Faith is, of course, taken for granted in these verses. But I know you know that.

 

[dadof10]

Both are needed in that a faith that produces righteous works is the faith that saves. A faith that does not change a person into a new creation who loves has a faith that can not save him. They are NOT both needed in that a man is made righteous by the good he does. I shared the verse in Titus that PLAINLY says that.

Titus 3:5 doesn't say "a faith that produces righteous works is the faith that saves". Nowhere in Scripture is this taught. Here is the context:

For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by men and hating one another;
4 but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life. (Titus (RSV) 3)

Paul is not making the case that saving faith (another non-Biblical term) is a faith that "produces good deeds", he is saying that, we were saved form our previous life ("were once foolish"), not because we somehow EARNED His "goodness and loving kindness" while we were in it, but purely on the basis of His mercy.

Just because the word "deeds" is in the sentence doesn't mean it applies to a faith/works discussion.

How do you not see it? The answer to his rhetorical question is 'no'. A faith that does not find expression in works ('love your neighbor as yourself') cannot save a person. Paul says the same thing:

"The only thing that counts (toward justification--see context) is faith..."

What kind of faith?

"...faith expressing itself through love." (Galatians 5:6 NIV)

The faith that saves, the faith that justifies, is the faith that finds expression through the lawful command to "love your neighbor as yourself" (Leviticus 19:18). A faith that does not find expression through love is a faith that cannot justify (make) a person righteous.

This is what Paul means when he says "31 Do we...nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law (by this faith)." (Romans 3:31 NIV parenthesis mine) Saving faith does not nullify the law...it upholds and keeps it! The law summarized in "love your neighbor as yourself".

I see it as there is initial justification, usually through baptism ("the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit"), but also through "accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior". This justification can be lost by sin. The only way to regain this salvation is through repairing the relationship with Jesus that was broken by sin.

Charity IS works of the law. That is why faith upholds the law. Because faith in God's forgiveness and mercy is what causes us to love others.

Please show me where this is taught in Scripture. Where faith causes good works.

I'm glad you're bringing this up. Even there it shows us that Abraham's 'works' SHOWED God that he believed him.

"Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.â€

Abraham was 'justified' by his actions in that they SHOWED him to be one who fears God. This is what James is teaching us, and which is plainly seen in the account itself.

So, when James says "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?" he is REALLY saying "Abraham was 'justified' by his actions in that they SHOWED him to be one who fears God"? Hummm... I thought he was actually saying Abraham was justified when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar.

Yes. He was SHOWN to have believed God's promise by the fact that he acted in full surety of that promise. To be shown to be righteous is also called 'being justified'. Just as being made righteous is also called 'being justified'. If you do not believe me look it up in the dictionary. And there is an example of this other use of 'justify' in the gospels that illustrates what it means to 'show' (justify) oneself as being righteous.

That may be true, but not here. The plain words of Scripture SHOW Abraham and Rahab being justified (in the salvific sense) by their works. The first sentence is "What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?" Notice it doesn't say "his faith has already saved him, and his works show what kind of faith he has". I know that's what you want it to say.

He would have been showing that he really did not believe God's promise made to him...the promise that God had earlier declared him righteous for believing. His actions are how God knew he had really believed him (God already knew of course. The story is for our benefit so that we will be careful to have a faith that causes us to respond as if we really do believe).

Abraham was made righteous ('justified') when he believed. Abraham was shown to be righteous (also called 'justified') when he acted as a result of his faith. If he had not been made righteous by faith he would not have had actions that would show him to be righteous by that faith. Understand?

Ask yourself why he had to be justified again if he was already justified for believing? The incident you (and Paul) are referring to happens in Gen. 15:6

"And he brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 And he believed the LORD; and he reckoned it to him as righteousness. (Genesis (RSV) 15)

Abraham was justified (in the salvific sense) BEFORE this event. Heb 11:8

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go. (Hebrews (RSV) 11)

This event occurred in Gen 12:1, years before he "believed God...".

If justification is a one time event, how is it that Abraham was justified three times? Once in Gen 12, once in Gen 15 and once when he "offered Issac"?

I understand fine, thanks, do you?

I'll walk through the passage verse by verse if you want. Actually I'd prefer that we did that.

Go ahead, just use the actual words of Scripture instead of what you want them to be.

 

[dadof10]

If you aren't saved, how can you obey?

That is the proper way to understand and reconcile Paul's and James' teachings.

Righteous people (made righteous by their faith in the forgiveness of God in Christ) do righteous things. Their righteous works show them to possess the faith that makes a person righteous. A faith that can not produce good works is not the faith that makes a person righteous.

That "saving faith" will produce good works is nowhere taught in Scripture, sorry.

 

[Davies]

Here is a wonderful passage of God's word that spells out clearly that a man is justified by faith and not by works.


Romans 4
New King James Version (NKJV)
Abraham Justified by Faith

4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?[a] 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.†4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

David Celebrates the Same Truth

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.â€[c]

Can't you feel the weight of the law being lifted from your shoulders? Haaaaaa

- Davies

 

[Sparrowhawk1161]

So many areas and verses in the Bible... no conceptua lbasis for the problem... just passages... I think I am swinging liquid mercury trying to go upstream on this one... yikes...