Both Apostles Are Right!

[Davies]

That "saving faith" will produce good works is nowhere taught in Scripture, sorry.

1 John 4:19
New King James Version (NKJV)
19 We love Him[a] because He first loved us.

What does it mean to love God?; to keep His commandments. And what is our victory?

1 John 5:3-4
New King James Version (NKJV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our[a] faith.

How about another clear example from the word of God that spells out without any ambiguity that we are justified by faith and not works?

Survey says! (the sound of Richard Dawson's voice)

Galatians 2:16
New King James Version (NKJV)
16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Remember the law is summed up in two commandments, to love God and then your neighbor, or another way to say you show love to someone is by showing charity.

Here's a couple of questions for you:

Galatians 3:2-3
New King James Version (NKJV)
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

There is a whole lotta reconciling that needs to take place because of these verses:

Galatians 3:6-9
New King James Version (NKJV)
6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.â€[a] 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.†9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

If you want to try and keep the law after coming to faith in Jesus in order to maintain your salvation, or be perfected in the flesh, then this verse is for you:

Galatians 3:10
New King James Version (NKJV)
The Law Brings a Curse

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.â€[a]

On the other hand (a poor impersonation of Topol), I could provide for you another clear verse:

Galatians 3:11
New King James Version (NKJV)
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.â€[a]

You said that the Scriptures do not teach anywhere that faith produces good works. Well, that statement is not true. Let's go over a list of examples found in Hebrews 11.

Hebrews 11:2
New King James Version (NKJV)
2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. (by faith the elders obtained a good testimony)

Hebrews 11:4
New King James Version (NKJV)
Faith at the Dawn of History

4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts;...

Hebrews 11:6
New King James Version (NKJV)
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is,...

Hebrews 11:7
New King James Version (NKJV)
7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

You can read the rest of Hebrews 11 that will show you that no one did anything apart from faith. Remember you have to have faith first, because without faith, it's impossible to please God.

- Davies

 

[Davies]

So many areas and verses in the Bible... no conceptua lbasis for the problem... just passages... I think I am swinging liquid mercury trying to go upstream on this one... yikes...

Thanks for the encouragement Sparrowhawk1161.

- Davies

 

[dadof10]

Here is a wonderful passage of God's word that spells out clearly that a man is justified by faith and not by works.


Romans 4
New King James Version (NKJV)
Abraham Justified by Faith

4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?[a] 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.†4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

David Celebrates the Same Truth

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.â€[c]

Can't you feel the weight of the law being lifted from your shoulders? Haaaaaa

- Davies

Again, let's get some context. Since you like game shows, I'm going to give you the next verses and you guess what, specifically Paul is talking about.

Is this blessing pronounced only upon the circumcised, or also upon the uncircumcised? We say that faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it reckoned to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received circumcision as a sign or seal of the righteousness which he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised and who thus have righteousness reckoned to them, 12 and likewise the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but also follow the example of the faith which our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. (Romans (RSV) 4)

Survey says!!!

The main doctrinal division within the early Church was on how to handle Gentile converts (Acts 15). Would they be required to receive circumcision, as the "Judiaizers" claimed, or not? Paul was preaching against circumcision (and, by extension, the entire law of Moses), not "good deeds".

No one is arguing for a return to the Mosaic Law, just proper perspective, which includes the history of the time and the reason for the example of Abraham.

 

[dadof10]

1 John 4:19
New King James Version (NKJV)
19 We love Him[a] because He first loved us.

What does it mean to love God?; to keep His commandments. And what is our victory?

1 John 5:3-4
New King James Version (NKJV)
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our[a] faith.

How about another clear example from the word of God that spells out without any ambiguity that we are justified by faith and not works?

Survey says! (the sound of Richard Dawson's voice)

Galatians 2:16
New King James Version (NKJV)
16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Remember the law is summed up in two commandments, to love God and then your neighbor, or another way to say you show love to someone is by showing charity.

Certainly, you're not making the claim that when the NT speaks about "law" it means love of God and neighbor? That that's what Paul had in mind here and elsewhere?

Here's a couple of questions for you:

Galatians 3:2-3
New King James Version (NKJV)
2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

There is a whole lotta reconciling that needs to take place because of these verses:

Galatians 3:6-9
New King James Version (NKJV)
6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.â€[a] 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.†9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

If you want to try and keep the law after coming to faith in Jesus in order to maintain your salvation, or be perfected in the flesh, then this verse is for you:

Galatians 3:10
New King James Version (NKJV)
The Law Brings a Curse

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.â€[a]

On the other hand (a poor impersonation of Topol), I could provide for you another clear verse:

Galatians 3:11
New King James Version (NKJV)
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.â€[a]

Works of the LAW, Davies, not good deeds done in faith. These are not the same thing.

You said that the Scriptures do not teach anywhere that faith produces good works. Well, that statement is not true. Let's go over a list of examples found in Hebrews 11.

Hebrews 11:2
New King James Version (NKJV)
2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. (by faith the elders obtained a good testimony)

Hebrews 11:4
New King James Version (NKJV)
Faith at the Dawn of History

4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts;...

Hebrews 11:6
New King James Version (NKJV)
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is,...

Hebrews 11:7
New King James Version (NKJV)
7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

You can read the rest of Hebrews 11 that will show you that no one did anything apart from faith. Remember you have to have faith first, because without faith, it's impossible to please God.

- Davies

I didn't mean that, sorry if I left that impression. I was reacting to Jethro's statement that "Their righteous works show them to possess the faith that makes a person righteous. A faith that can not produce good works is not the faith that makes a person righteous."

Scripture does not teach that a "saving faith" will necessarily produce good works, nor that good works somehow show what kind of faith a person has. This is extra-biblical. I was tired last night and might not have been as clear as I should have been. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[dadof10]

So many areas and verses in the Bible... no conceptua lbasis for the problem... just passages... I think I am swinging liquid mercury trying to go upstream on this one... yikes...

Good point. The conceptual basis for much of the "faith vs. works" writing within Paul's letters is his reaction to the "Judiaizers". It was THE major issue within Paul's lifetime due to the conversion of the Gentiles and how the Jews saw them.

 

[Davies]

No one is arguing for a return to the Mosaic Law, just proper perspective, which includes the history of the time and the reason for the example of Abraham.

Hi dadof10,

You can tell I grew up watching tv. ;) I was pretty tired last night, so, my sense of humor has a tendency to come out more when I'm tired. I hope you didn't take it those comments negatively.

dadof10, when you talk about good deeds or doing something for God, you are talking about the law, because the law of God should govern our behavior or more clearly the law of faith. This distinction is maifested since Jesus fulfilled the law for us, the Ceremonial law is no longer able to cover a person's sins and the wall that separated the Jews from the Gentiles has been torn down. Because 9 of the 10 Commandments, the Moral Law, has been reiterated in the New Testament, and because they reflect the perfect nature and character of God, we obey them, and because Jesus said we should obey them. The only way to obey them is if we love God, and He helps us to do that by the power of the Holy Spirit through faith.

You may not be arguing for a return to the Mosaic law, but understand, to a Protestant, when you talk about obeying the Lord to retain your salvation, we understand this as self-righteousness, and we know that all of our righteousness is as dirty rags in the site of God, especially when it comes to justification.

- Davies

 

[dadof10]

Hi dadof10,

You can tell I grew up watching tv. ;) I was pretty tired last night, so, my sense of humor has a tendency to come out more when I'm tired. I hope you didn't take it those comments negatively.

Oh, no. Just having fun myself. Remember how scandalous it was when Richard Dawson would kiss married women? My, how far TV has degraded in 40 short years.

dadof10, when you talk about good deeds or doing something for God, you are talking about the law, because the law of God should govern our behavior or more clearly the law of faith.

OK, that's one use of the word "law". Do you think that's what Paul means when he says "works of the law", the law of faith?

This distinction is maifested since Jesus fulfilled the law for us, the Ceremonial law is no longer able to cover a person's sins and the wall that separated the Jews from the Gentiles has been torn down.

I agree. I think in Paul's letters and Acts we are witnessing this tearing down. The early Church was working in the dark. Jesus was not exactly what the Jews expected in a messiah. The majority thought he would be a military leader, fielding a great army to push back their Roman occupiers. These Jewish men had to figure it all out on the fly. Nobody said it was going to be easy or quick. When a dispute arose, like in Acts 15, they formed a council to debate and decide. There were disagreements and outright arguments. When a decision was finally reached, it took a while to be disseminated and accepted. It seems as though some people accepted the decision of the council (i.e. circumcision is not necessary for salvation) easier than others. I think this is what Paul is doing, handing on proper doctrine and arguing against those who would not submit to the Church's teaching, specifically on Gentile converts and circumcision.

Because 9 of the 10 Commandments, the Moral Law, has been reiterated in the New Testament, and because they reflect the perfect nature and character of God, we obey them, and because Jesus said we should obey them. The only way to obey them is if we love God, and He helps us to do that by the power of the Holy Spirit through faith.

Do you think it's possible for a "saved" person to disobey (sin)? If so, does this effect salvation?

You may not be arguing for a return to the Mosaic law, but understand, to a Protestant, when you talk about obeying the Lord to retain your salvation, we understand this as self-righteousness, and we know that all of our righteousness is as dirty rags in the site of God, especially when it comes to justification.

- Davies

I have a pretty good grasp on what mainstream Protestantism teaches. The "home church" folks have many varying beliefs, so it's harder to pin them down. The major difference is Catholics look at justification as an ongoing process, Protestants, a one time event. We see the three justifications of Abraham as a very good example of this.

As far as "self-righteousness" goes, we believe the same way you do, that the "will to work and the work itself" is the Grace of God. I may be assuming too much about your beliefs, but most Protestant churches teach that faith (belief) is a gift from God, but something that you need to respond to (accept Jesus...). The Catholic Church just extends that Grace to the "will and the work". We still have to respond, as you do.

 

[Davies]

OK, that's one use of the word "law". Do you think that's what Paul means when he says "works of the law", the law of faith?

Hi dadof10,

I was too young at the time to realize what Richard Dawson was doing was wrong. It never crossed my little mind at the time.

When Paul uses the word law, I think he could be referring to the Ceremonial law, or most definitely the moral law, 10 Commandments, or in general whatever we do to obey God. Here are a couple of verses that put it into perspective.

Romans 3:27
New King James Version (NKJV)
Boasting Excluded

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.

The law of faith enables us to obey God, not only in letter, but in spirit as well. This isn't called the justification process, this is called the sanctification process. Now, Paul take it a bit further and asks a natural question, do we do away with the law because of our faith? Let me quote the verse.

Romans 3:31
New King James Version (NKJV)
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

The answer is no. It's because of our faith in God/Jesus/Holy Spirit that we are now enabled to obey the law. We don't do away with it. Though we would disagree that works justifies us, I would say it's our faith that justifies us, and because we are now found in Christ, we will be lead by the Holy Spirit to do those works that God foreordained. It is God who works in us to will and to do.

Philippians 2:13
New King James Version (NKJV)
13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

So, works is not absent with faith, but faith can be absent with works. The difference is the motivation behind the works. Why do you do what you do? I hold if you love God, and that is the reason why you do a good work, I think God will reward that, but if a work is done to be right with God, then I consider this self-righteousness, and will be the work that is burned up. Yet, even if a man's work is found to be lacking, he will be still saved because his foundation is Jesus Christ, v. 15 below.

1 Corinthians 3:13-15
New King James Version (NKJV)
13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Do you think it's possible for a "saved" person to disobey (sin)? If so, does this effect salvation?

I know a saved person can sin, because Peter sinned, and Paul confronted him to his face.

Galatians 2:11-13
New King James Version (NKJV)
No Return to the Law

11 Now when Peter[a] had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

This does not affect one's salvation, because Jesus said no one could snatch a person out of his hand. If a person could lose his salvation, he would.

- Davies

 

[dadof10]

Hi dadof10,

I was too young at the time to realize what Richard Dawson was doing was wrong. It never crossed my little mind at the time.

When Paul uses the word law, I think he could be referring to the Ceremonial law, or most definitely the moral law, 10 Commandments, or in general whatever we do to obey God. Here are a couple of verses that put it into perspective.

Romans 3:27
New King James Version (NKJV)
Boasting Excluded

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.

The law of faith enables us to obey God, not only in letter, but in spirit as well. This isn't called the justification process, this is called the sanctification process.

Context. Paul has been writing about the Jews and the law of Moses since the beginning of the second chapter.

Rom 3:19(a)"Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law,..." Stop right here.

Obviously Paul is referencing the Law of Moses here because there is no reference ANYWHERE to someone being "under" the law of morality or the law of obedience.

Paul continues:

"so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. (Romans (RSV) 3)

Stop again...Can you tell me how the "moral law" or "obeying God" gives us knowledge of sin? There is no doubt that Paul is speaking about the Law of Moses and only the Law of Moses.

What do you think Paul means when he asks "Where is boasting then?" Boasting about what? Our good works? There is absolutely no reference to good works before this question at all. Here are the verses directly before:

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets [another reference to the Law of Moses] bear witness to it, 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; 23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; 26 it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus. (Romans (RSV) 3)

"There is no distinction..." between Jew and Greek. The "boasting" is Jewish boasting about the Law of Moses being given to them. They looked down upon the Gentiles. Paul is saying that through Christ, they are all equally righteous.

Now, Paul take it a bit further and asks a natural question, do we do away with the law because of our faith? Let me quote the verse.

Romans 3:31
New King James Version (NKJV)
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

The answer is no. It's because of our faith in God/Jesus/Holy Spirit that we are now enabled to obey the law. We don't do away with it. Though we would disagree that works justifies us, I would say it's our faith that justifies us, and because we are now found in Christ, we will be lead by the Holy Spirit to do those works that God foreordained. It is God who works in us to will and to do.

There is a bit in between these two verses which add context. Here is the entire thought:

Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On the principle of works? No, but on the principle of faith. 28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith.
31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law. (Romans (RSV) 3)

Sorry, Davies. I only see Paul speaking on the works of the Mosiac Law. These verses have nothing to do with the moral law or obedience to God. You are trying to stretch the meaning to suit your theology.

Philippians 2:13
New King James Version (NKJV)
13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

So, works is not absent with faith, but faith can be absent with works. The difference is the motivation behind the works. Why do you do what you do? I hold if you love God, and that is the reason why you do a good work, I think God will reward that, but if a work is done to be right with God, then I consider this self-righteousness, and will be the work that is burned up. Yet, even if a man's work is found to be lacking, he will be still saved because his foundation is Jesus Christ, v. 15 below.

1 Corinthians 3:13-15
New King James Version (NKJV)
13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

I agree, for the most part. Where we disagree, I assume, is that I believe the works done for the right motivation actually effect the person's soul and therefore, their salvation. I don't think you mean this when you say "reward".

I know a saved person can sin, because Peter sinned, and Paul confronted him to his face.

Galatians 2:11-13
New King James Version (NKJV)
No Return to the Law

11 Now when Peter[a] had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

This does not affect one's salvation, because Jesus said no one could snatch a person out of his hand. If a person could lose his salvation, he would.

And we are back around full circle. I think that James is saying this exact thing, that the works we do, or don't do, effect our salvation. This doesn't contradict Paul because Paul is speaking specifically on works of the Law.

 

[Davies]

dadof10,

I think we found the heart of our disagreement, what it means to be obedient to God, and the role our obedience plays in our justification. Though this thread has strengthened my convictions regarding justification by faith, I have to say then I appreciate the dialogue. We have to agree to disagree and tolerate one another. Because you understand my position, you should understand that I think it is fatal to think you will be able to do enough good deeds to justify yourself. I pose to you the righteousness that God offers along with the forgiveness of sins is sufficient to allow you to stand fully sanctified before the Father after your mortal body passes away.

Also you should understand you are posting on a website that clearly states the position I have put forth, and I would ask to respect my decision to place my faith in justification by faith alone just as I respect your decision to place your faith in what I consider to be another gospel. In this, we do not share fellowship, and it's my responsibility to point out the error. You seem to be a nice person, and if we were to ever meet in person, I have no doubt we could be respectful to one another. It's better we walk away from this discussion saying each other is wrong having an understanding rather than not caring at all.

- Davies

 

[JMJ]

Faith is, of course, taken for granted in these verses. But I know you know that.

:D

James states it well:

James 2:18 NKJV
.......... I will show you my faith by my works.

James thought it necessary to present both sides of this debate in the same passage so I am presenting only his own belief above and leaving out his imaginary debate foe's belief.

The bottom line is that faith without good works is worthless/dead. Faith without good works will not save any person.

Persons are called trees in the following passage and if these trees do not do good works, they will be thrown into the fire (of hell) to be destroyed.

Luke 3:8-14 (NKJV)
8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 9 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”

10 So the people asked him, saying, “What shall we do then?”

11 He answered and said to them, “He who has two tunics, let him give to him who has none; and he who has food, let him do likewise.”

12 Then tax collectors also came to be baptized, and said to him, “Teacher, what shall we do?”

13 And he said to them, “Collect no more than what is appointed for you.”

14 Likewise the soldiers asked him, saying, “And what shall we do?”

So he said to them, “Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content with your wages.”

Jesus ordered them to get to work if they want to inherit eternal life! OOPS! This is incorrect. JOHN, not Jesus, ordered them to get to work if they want to inherit eternal life! Thank you, Slider, for correcting me. Much appreciated.

 

[JMJ]

Where does it state in Scripture that once you have been saved/justified as a gift of God, that this justification automatically entitles you to inherit eternal life after you die and that no further action of yours, either good or evil, matters at all?

 

[Davies]

Romans 5:12-19
New King James Version (NKJV)
Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

PRAISE GOD! AMEN!

- Davies

 

[Slider]

:D





Luke 3:8-14 (NKJV)

........

Jesus ordered them to get to work if they want to inherit eternal life!

Not that it matters much, but it was John the Baptist doing the talking in Luke 3:8-14....

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Where does it state in Scripture that once you have been saved/justified as a gift of God, that this justification automatically entitles you to inherit eternal life after you die and that no further action of yours, either good or evil, matters at all?

I've noticed that in these kinds of threads, the people who argue for works salvation seem to share these two things:

1) They think that everybody who thinks one is declared righteous by faith apart from works automatically must also believe that saving faith doesn't have to do anything.

2) They seem to be strongly motivated by an envy of those who really do think saving faith doesn't have to do anything (namely, those who have a 'faith' that can't justify/save them).

These two things typically make it terribly hard to get through to these people.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Probably the best illustration of how justifying faith (as opposed to the 'faith' that doesn't justify--the kind demons have) drives righteous works of love is the story of the 'sinful' woman in Luke 7.

Her actions showed that she had been forgiven much. To whom Jesus said, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.†(vs. 50)


"...her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.†(Luke 7:47 NASB)

The link between faith in Christ's forgiveness, and the work that grace produces in a person, is easily seen. Forgiven much--loves much. Forgiven little--loves little. It's an undeniable link. Faith is the motivator of love. And where there is no, or little, faith, there is no, or little, love. That's why love is what signifies saving faith. It is in that way that love 'justifies' the person as having a genuine faith in the forgiveness of God. But you won't get it as long as you can only see the word 'justify' as meaning to be 'made' righteous.

 

[JMJ]

Not that it matters much, but it was John the Baptist doing the talking in Luke 3:8-14....

Oops. You are correct. Thank you, Slider. :D I went back to the post and I corrected it:

John ordered them to get to work if they want to inherit eternal life!

 

[JMJ]

Romans 5:12-19
New King James Version (NKJV)
Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

PRAISE GOD! AMEN!

- Davies

It does not state in these Scriptures you quoted above that once you have been saved/justified as a gift of God, that this justification automatically entitles you to inherit eternal life after you die and that no further action of yours, either good or evil, matters at all.

It states that He justifies you. It does not state that you are guaranteed to inherit eternal life by this justification. What does this justification actually give us? Paul explains what this justification actually gives us:

Titus 3:7 (NIV)
7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

This justification by faith gives us hope of eternal life only. They cried out in the name of the Lord and He saved them.

Many people buy a lottery ticket because they hope to win the lottery yet they never do win it. Their hopes were in vain.

Many Christians are hoping to inherit eternal life, but their disobedience to God disqualifies them. Their hopes will be in vain when they find out that Jesus will not approve them to enter into eternal life because of their evil deeds.

Matthew 7:21-23 NIV
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

These Christians cry out in the name of the Lord once again, but He condemns them. It is now too late for these evil Christians to repent of their evil deeds. Their hopes to inherit eternal life were in vain.

 

[JMJ]

I've noticed that in these kinds of threads, the people who argue for works salvation seem to share these two things:

1) They think that everybody who thinks one is declared righteous by faith apart from works automatically must also believe that saving faith doesn't have to do anything.

2) They seem to be strongly motivated by an envy of those who really do think saving faith doesn't have to do anything (namely, those who have a 'faith' that can't justify/save them).

These two things typically make it terribly hard to get through to these people.

Works done by faith (love for God) do help save the persons who do the good works and also other people.

Works done for the wrong intentions do not save any person.

How do you explain the following verse in regards to your belief of saving faith:

Timothy 2:14-15 NIV
14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

The work, childbearing, works together with the woman's faith and together they, faith and childbearing, save her.

Only perfected persons are approved to enter into eternal life.

James 2:22 (NKJV)
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Colossians 1:28 (NKJV)
28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.

Only the persons who have purified their hearts/souls will be approved to see God's face (inherit eternal life).

Matthew 5:8
Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God.

Revelation 3:2 NKJV
Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God.

Who becomes perfect?

1 John 2:4-6 (NIV)
4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete [perfect] in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

 

[Davies]

I'll reiterate what I shared with dadof10. Our disagreement is on what obedience is and what role our obedience plays in justification.

I'll add a little more context to the verses I shared from Romans 5.

Romans 5:19-21
New King James Version (NKJV)
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

You do see that it says in v. 19 that "by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous." That means the people being made righteous are being made righteous by the the one Man. If that is what is required to be saved, what makes you think it's different afterwards? Does God then want to give some credit to you for your salvation? That would be called stealing, a violation of the eighth Commandment. God deserves all the credit for saving a person.

Also in v. 21, it says "even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." The might refers to not the believer, but in recognition that not everyone repents and puts their faith in Jesus. God pours His grace on man everyday, but not everyone responds to it. Grace does not lead to eternal life through Jesus for those who practice evil, showing their unbelief, but only to those who have faith in Jesus, showed by the obedience that God willed to do in them.

Philippians 2:13
New King James Version (NKJV)
13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

If you want to take credit for being obedient to God, then you are taking the glory that is reserved for Him alone.

- Davies