They have to do something insofar as the faith they say they have must be of sufficient quality to produce works of righteousness.
Where does Scripture talk about "quality" of faith? Answer: It doesn't.
Those works VALIDATING the faith that produced them as sufficient to save them by a declaration of righteousness, apart from their works.
Where does Scripture teach this notion? Answer: It doesn't.
Those works do not MAKE us righteous, they SHOW us to have the righteousness that comes by faith in God's forgiveness, apart from works.
It doesn't teach this either, especially in James 2...
I submit to you that those who think the faith through which we are declared righteous doesn't have to change a person's behavior for that faith to be able to solicit a declaration of righteousness is...well...an unbeliever.
Or this...
You will be hard pressed to find a genuine believer who says we do not have an obligation to walk in the Spirit as a result of being justified by faith apart from works.
Obligation??? To whom? What happens if the "genuine believer" does not think we have this obligation? Loss of salvation? I have talked to many "born again Christians" who think they are not obligated to walk anywhere or do anything, they are saved for eternity by a one time declaration of faith. Wait...let me guess...They are not "genuine believers", then right?
But that hardly means we are MADE righteous by our righteous works. Paul PLAINLY says we are NOT saved because of any righteous thing we have done.
Right. Our salvation comes to us by Grace alone.
See, this is what I'm talking about. You automatically think those in our camp think actions mean nothing.
No, I think that those in your camp believe that actions mean nothing SALVIFIC. Isn't this true? You have been saying nothing else since the beginning. If not, which actions that we do, save?
The proper argument is, works play no part in MAKING a person righteous before God. That is IMPOSSIBLE to do. Anyone who thinks they can be righteous enough to earn their salvation, even through the Holy Spirit, is deceived...not to mention the very definition of 'self righteous'.
REALLY? So, the Holy Spirit working through a person and drawing out of him a confession of true faith is self righteousness? Please show where this little gem is taught in Scripture.
But our actions are essential in validating our faith as genuine. We are commanded to do that...validate our own faith to ensure we really do have the faith that justifies, all by itself apart from works, so that we can know for ourselves if we truly will be saved on the Day of Wrath by our faith in the forgiveness of God.
Where does Scripture teach this? Again...It doesn't.
You MUST accept Jesus as personal Lord and savoir in order to be saved, and this is a "work" by your own definition.
And that is the pettiest of arguments. I also had to get out of bed the day I accepted Christ.
Was getting out of bed NECESSARY for salvation? Is accepting Jesus necessary in your opinion? If so, how is it not a necessary work?
I see it often in Pharissetical, self-righteous arguments...like among the law keeping crowd, for example. It's the envy of not letting other people think they are 'getting away with it' while they themselves are busy self-righteously conforming to a works gospel and wearing themselves out earning their way to heaven. Surely if you have to work your way to heaven so does everybody else. Nobody's going to have it easier than you, right?
I don't know. I've never met anyone who thinks this way?
You are guilty of not dividing the Word of God properly.
Does proper dividing of the word include belief in non-biblical notions, like those above?
That means you are not taking the whole counsel of the scriptures into consideration when you lift passages of scripture out of scripture.
It's obvious that we are not justified by faith alone. I could give you 10 verses that teach this exact BIBLICAL doctrine. From Jesus, to Paul's teaching on the salvific power of child-bearing, to Peter's teaching on the necessity of water baptism. How many verses can you give that teach faith has to be of a certain "quality"? What about that works validate "the faith that produced them as sufficient to save them by a declaration of righteousness, apart from their works"?
Who is not "rightly dividing" the Word?
From the whole picture we know it is faith in God's forgiveness that justifies and saves a person. That is diametrically opposed to the belief that you earn salvation by doing good things.
No one is saying we can earn salvation by doing good things. I (and others) have been saying repeatedly that we must cooperate with God's Grace to remain justified because justification is an ongoing process. Abraham is a great example of this.
We are justified (MADE/ DECLARED) righteous by what we believe, just like Abraham was made righteous by believing what God said about a promised Son who would inherit the blessing on his behalf.
What else does Scripture say about Abraham and Justification? I laid it out in a previous post to you. Do you remember? Does ignoring 2 other events in Abraham's life where he was justified two other times count as "rightly dividing" the word?
And, just as James says, we are also justified (SHOWN TO BE) righteous by what we do, just as Abraham was shown to have truly believed God's promise of blessing by what he did in offering up Issac on the altar.
Still waiting for your exegesis of James 2. I don't accept your view that James means shown to be saved by the word "justification". It doesn't hold water.
Your doctrine leaves a very glaring contradiction in scripture that the world loves to exploit and discredit the Bible about. And to remedy it you try to redefine 'love your neighbor as yourself' (LEVITICUS--as in the Law of Moses-- 19:18) to mean something other than a work of the law, instead of just understanding the scriptures the way they are written.
:biglol THE WAY THEY ARE WRITTEN??? OK, the way it's written is "What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?" This OBVIOUSLY means that what follows directly refers to SALVATION, not showing anything....Let's continue. The way it's written is:
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?"
Well, Jethro, was he justified in a soterological sense by his works?
"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."
Couldn't be more clear, especially taking into consideration that EVERY REFERENCE in Paul's letters to "faith vs. works" which you have been citing except one, is in the DIRECT CONTEXT OF THE JEWISH LAW. This fact, and the historical fact that the first heresy in the early Church dealt with Gentile circumcision, should tell anyone with an open mind that justification is not by faith alone. When Paul says "works don't save" he is speaking of works of the Jewish law, like in Acts 15. This is painfully obvious.
It's so abundantly clear from the context of James' discourse, and the example he uses, that he is speaking of showing your faith as real and able to save by what you do, not your works being able to make you righteous and save you.
Not if you rightly divide the word, the entire word, by actually taking into consideration that the example he uses (Abraham) was NOT justified once and for all, but three times over the course of his life. This proves, beyond any doubt, that justification is a process, not a one time event.
