Boy who claimed he went to heaven recants

[KevinK]

This is what you said
"Isn't that what we're saying? That a person's spirit comes out of their body, goes on a trip, then returns".
I am saying that was the Apostle John who took that brief trip to heaven in Revelation.That is different than saying that could happen to us.

So you're saying that it was a special case because he was an Apostle, as opposed to a common person like the rest of us? OK, that's a fair viewpoint. However, we don't know that John of Patmos was the same as John the Apostle. He just said he was John. He may have actually been an ordinary person.

 

[jasonc]

I actually brought up John's account in Revelation as an example of a person's spirit going to Heaven (or could be Hell) and then returning to their body on earth. This is regardless of whether they died or not. Not that they just saw a vision, that they actually went there. OBEs are explicit examples of a person going to a spritiual destination with their body definitely not dying.

I have had those of sorts. I don't place stock in those. why? mine were prior salvation. after the cross it might happen for some but when they contradict each other what then?

 

[Gary]

I actually brought up John's account in Revelation as an example of a person's spirit going to Heaven (or could be Hell) and then returning to their body on earth. This is regardless of whether they died or not. Not that they just saw a vision, that they actually went there. OBEs are explicit examples of a person going to a spritiual destination with their body definitely not dying.

I understand what you're saying.

What I'm saying is, these accounts of going to heaven or hell and returning again are not biblical. There's nothing in the Word of God to support it.

This passage debunks the claims of traveling to hell and back. It plainly states that it can't be done.

Luke 16
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’
25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’



John's physical description of Christ.

Revelation 1
12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band.
14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire;
15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters;
16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.



Most others who claim to have met Christ describe Him as a handsome long haired bearded white guy. (just like all the pictures) This should be a red flag because of this:

1 John 3
2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.


He hasn't been revealed yet.

Thoughts?
.

 

[KevinK]

OK, Gary, I see where you're coming from, and it's a valid point-of-view. Understand that while I am a Christian, I am not a fundamentalist. I don't subscribe to the theory that the Bible is the uncorrupted transmission of God's word by divine guidance. Part of this is due to my own research, and part of this is due to my own out-of-body experience that contained elements in contradiction with certain translations of scripture. The Bible contradicts itself in some passages (check the details of the young David slaying Goliath). Basically I think that if Man had some hand in writing scripture, opportunity for creative editing would have been far too tempting.

 

[jasonc]

OK, Gary, I see where you're coming from, and it's a valid point-of-view. Understand that while I am a Christian, I am not a fundamentalist. I don't subscribe to the theory that the Bible is the uncorrupted transmission of God's word by divine guidance. Part of this is due to my own research, and part of this is due to my own out-of-body experience that contained elements in contradiction with certain translations of scripture. The Bible contradicts itself in some passages (check the details of the young David slaying Goliath). Basically I think that if Man had some hand in writing scripture, opportunity for creative editing would have been far too tempting.

witness; aren't going to see the same thing if they all said exactly the same thing it wouldn't be believiable. a cop will tell you that if 5 people all say the exact same thing. they are all lying.

 

[KevinK]

Some of the transmission discrepancies are not malevolent, just a natural result of any text being translated and transcribed so many times in so many languages. Others I question more, like the politcal pressures imposed on some of the early ecumenical councils.

 

[Gary]

OK, Gary, I see where you're coming from, and it's a valid point-of-view. Understand that while I am a Christian, I am not a fundamentalist. I don't subscribe to the theory that the Bible is the uncorrupted transmission of God's word by divine guidance. Part of this is due to my own research, and part of this is due to my own out-of-body experience that contained elements in contradiction with certain translations of scripture.

Understanding comes from putting your trust in God, not putting your trust in the bible.

And if you don't mind me asking, what were the elements in contradiction?

The Bible contradicts itself in some passages (check the details of the young David slaying Goliath). Basically I think that if Man had some hand in writing scripture, opportunity for creative editing would have been far too tempting.

The bible was written over a 1,500 year time period. Give or take. That's 40 different writers/authors from three continents, who wrote in three different languages. And you have to remember, the events in the bible were not written as they happened. For example, the account of David and Goliath was not written until after David's death. 1 & 2 Samuel , 1 Kings and 1 Chronicles is where we get most of our information on David.

1 & 2 Samuel were probably written between 931-722 B.C.
1 Kings was written between 561-538 B.C.
1 Chronicles was written between 561-538 B.C.

From Samuel to Chronicles is almost 400 years.

Yes, there may be contradictions in the bible but the fruit of the message has not been tainted.
.

 

[KevinK]

You're mostly saying what I'm saying in different words. So I guess we agree.

 

[jeff77]

OK, Gary, I see where you're coming from, and it's a valid point-of-view. Understand that while I am a Christian, I am not a fundamentalist. I don't subscribe to the theory that the Bible is the uncorrupted transmission of God's word by divine guidance. Part of this is due to my own research, and part of this is due to my own out-of-body experience that contained elements in contradiction with certain translations of scripture. The Bible contradicts itself in some passages (check the details of the young David slaying Goliath). Basically I think that if Man had some hand in writing scripture, opportunity for creative editing would have been far too tempting.

Hi KevinK
Could your NDE have been a dream or vision rather than actually visiting heaven or hell? I know that you are genuine and this NDE experience is part of what led you back to God, right? As for errors in the Bible, I don't believe there are any. I think there is even a lot of archeological evidence that has been found over the last few decades that have changed the minds of the atheist scientist that were the ones look for error. As powerful as God is, it's hard to imagine that he could not preserve a book (the Bible) about His creation that could not be tampered with by man.

 

[Karl]

Who is healing people? Jesus, from heaven.
Who is protecting us? Jesus, from heaven.

Good question Deborah, what did Jesus say, "If you ask anything in my Name," is it recorded that any of these people asked Jesus anything?

Don't we ask Jesus for healing, protection and the myriad of other petitions we might have?

My point was the miracles performed by Jesus during His ministry was to authenticate God was on planet earth and the miracles preformed, by God, in His Name today is done through His Church.

 

[Deborah13]

Good question Deborah, what did Jesus say, "If you ask anything in my Name," is it recorded that any of these people asked Jesus anything?

Don't we ask Jesus for healing, protection and the myriad of other petitions we might have?

My point was the miracles performed by Jesus during His ministry was to authenticate God was on planet earth and the miracles preformed, by God, in His Name today is done through His Church.

So what was it when the apostles like Peter and Paul were used to heal people? Were they doing the healing or was God the healer, the Holy Spirit, the spirit of God (Jesus), doing the healing? Did it glorify God and bear witness to the power of God on earth? Did they claim to be the one healing or did they give the glory to God? Did the power come from earth or from heaven?
In fact, what is being raised from the dead (not resurrection, like Jesus or the future resurrection) but being healed? There was something that caused that person to die. Are you saying that because the human body gave out that that somehow can limit God's ability to heal them?

 

[Karl]

So what was it when the apostles like Peter and Paul were used to heal people? Were they doing the healing or was God the healer, the Holy Spirit, the spirit of God (Jesus), doing the healing? Did it glorify God and bear witness to the power of God on earth? Did they claim to be the one healing or did they give the glory to God? Did the power come from earth or from heaven?
In fact, what is being raised from the dead (not resurrection, like Jesus or the future resurrection) but being healed? There was something that caused that person to die. Are you saying that because the human body gave out that that somehow can limit God's ability to heal them?

When Peter or Paul, or anyone else, even today, in the Church, heals someone who is sick or resurrects someone from the dead, is it not the Holy Spirit working through the gift of healing or miracles in the Church?

I disagree resurrection being a gift of healing, if the person is dead then their life (soul and spirit) has left them and they either go to Hell or to be with the Lord, for that person to come back to life then the Author and Giver of life has to give it (back) to them, there is only One God and Creator,...like I said, Jesus was authenticating, proving to Israel He was their Messiah and He is God, since the day of Pentecost the Church has been given sign gifts to authenticate and prove the Gospel is true and Salvation is open to all who will receive it.

All of these stories glorify the person that supposedly came back to life and not God, also, another reason I don't believe they were truly dead (soul and spirit had actually left the body) was because back in the late '60s we had out of body experiences and saw pretty much the same things they speak of, ...but it was LSD induced.

I believe in healings and resurrections of dead people today, by the Holy Spirit through the Church, God is glorified, there is a revival that follows, people are converted and a church is born, there sometimes needs to be this manifestation of God's power and authority to free the people from the bondage of their local witch or warlock, ...the story of Simon Acts 8 is a classic example of this, these people that have been touched by God don't go around selling books or appearing on TV, the are usually some of the most powerful evangelists in the local church.

I hope I have answered your questions, if not, please ask again.

 

[Deborah13]

When Peter or Paul, or anyone else, even today, in the Church, heals someone who is sick or resurrects someone from the dead, is it not the Holy Spirit working through the gift of healing or miracles in the Church?

lol. You are answering my question to you with a question to me. We both know that it is the power of God.

I disagree resurrection being a gift of healing,

I quote you, " even today, in the Church, heals someone who is sick or resurrects someone from the dead,"
If you agree that people are still being raised from the dead in the Church today, why do you not think they were healed? It seems to me they must have been healed.
I did not called this the "gift of healing". I simply said God had healed them from heaven.

if the person is dead then their life (soul and spirit) has left them and they either go to Hell or to be with the Lord, for that person to come back to life then the Author and Giver of life has to give it (back) to them, there is only One God and Creator,...like I said, Jesus was authenticating, proving to Israel He was their Messiah and He is God, since the day of Pentecost the Church has been given sign gifts to authenticate and prove the Gospel is true and Salvation is open to all who will receive it.

I agree.

All of these stories glorify the person that supposedly came back to life and not God, also, another reason I don't believe they were truly dead (soul and spirit had actually left the body) was because back in the late '60s we had out of body experiences and saw pretty much the same things they speak of, ...but it was LSD induced.

So because satan has used other means to imitate something that only God could do you don't believe God will do it? I'm playing a litte bit of the other sides argument here.
However,
I don't entirely disbelieve all claims of people who say they had a NDE. I personally do not think that they were taken somewhere away from their body but I do believe that the Lord may have given them a vision and that it was very, very real. Depending on how sensitive a person is to imagery they can actually remember sensations as though they were physically there. Touch, tastes, smells, colors, movement, etc. can seem to be very real even after a dream, never mind an actual vision.

I believe in healings and resurrections of dead people today, by the Holy Spirit through the Church, God is glorified, there is a revival that follows, people are converted and a church is born, there sometimes needs to be this manifestation of God's power and authority to free the people from the bondage of their local witch or warlock, ...the story of Simon Acts 8 is a classic example of this, these people that have been touched by God don't go around selling books or appearing on TV, the are usually some of the most powerful evangelists in the local church.

I hope I have answered your questions, if not, please ask again.

I basically agree with this last statement of healings and resurrection/raised from the dead.
However, I think that Jesus' resurrection and the resurrection of the saints is different than Lazarus being raised from the dead. Lazarus was still in his original body form, his body had not been changed. Whatever caused Lazarus to die had been undone by the Lord.

 

[Gary]

You're mostly saying what I'm saying in different words. So I guess we agree.

How does your Out of Body Experience and the bible contradict one another?

 

[KevinK]

Hi KevinK
Could your NDE have been a dream or vision rather than actually visiting heaven or hell?

Yes, it's possible. I thought it was a dream at first. Then the guy leading the session told me everything I had just "dreamed", and why I was "summoned". Something wierd happened that night, any way you slice it.

 

[KevinK]

How does your Out of Body Experience and the bible contradict one another?

The "R" word.

 

[Gary]

I don't know what that means.

 

[Gary]

Yes, it's possible. I thought it was a dream at first. Then the guy leading the session told me everything I had just "dreamed", and why I was "summoned". Something wierd happened that night, any way you slice it.

Was the guy leading the session a part of the dream?

 

[KevinK]

I don't know what that means.

That's what you said in your last life (that's meant to be a hint, not a joke).

 

[KevinK]

Was the guy leading the session a part of the dream?

No, flesh and blood person.