"Burning in Hell"

[Butch5]

how can you bring yourself closer to god when you refuse to take the first step to salvation. the ironic part of this whole thread is that the person that made a thread about hell avoids how to obtain salvation that keeps him out of hell. i learned something today from Vanguard, people are going to believe what they believe regardless of how many scriptures or websites you throw at them. Vanguard, just think about what i said, i'm done here - urk

I came to that realization some time ago. Christians, at least in America, are going to believe what they want to believe regardless of what the Scriptures say.

 

[Butch5]

Free-will is an unbiblical concept conceived by Jacobus Arminius (Arminianism = most of orthodox Christianity today), who rejected Calvin's predestination teaching of pure grace. Arminius believed salvation was available to everyone—if they exercised their free wills and took it (i.e - salvation by "works"). In other words, they relieved God of responsibility for His creation.

The Calvinist and the Arminian viewpoint have one common point: a belief in eternal torment. However, the clever Arminians ducked this horror by making God not liable for sending folks to orthodox hell. The answer: Free will. Free will is one of the easiest heresies to disprove from Scripture—but it doesn't matter. Arminians who believe in eternal torment are in the embarrassing position of having to stare sovereignty-of-God verses straight in the face and deny them. I witness the phenomenon daily in this very forum. But at least, unlike Calvinists, they resist a God who damns people on purpose. Calvinists; such warm, delicate souls, simply recite their "Oh well!" sermon every Sunday and go home.

Free will is not a concept conceived by Arminius. Many early Christian writers talk of man's free will.

 

[Vanguard]

Alright Vanguard, Osgiliath,

Where do really terrible people like, say, Hitler, the person who invented boy bands and Judas go after they die?

They go to the same place that everyone else goes...the grave [sheol].

As a matter of fact, this would make a GREAT topic outside of this thread. Look for it in Apologetics/Theology shortly.

 

[Webb]

They go to the same place that everyone else goes...the grave [sheol].

As a matter of fact, this would make a GREAT topic outside of this thread. Look for it in Apologetics/Theology shortly.

That part of man which goes to the grave is the body (which returns to dust) but the spirit returns to God, not the grave, Eccl.12:7.

God bless

 

[John 8:32]

That part of man which goes to the grave is the body (which returns to dust) but the spirit returns to God, not the grave, Eccl.12:7.

God bless

And is unconscious until the resurrection. They don't praise God...

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Their thoughts perish...

Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Man dies just as an animal dies...

Psa 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.

Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Yes the spirit goes back to God as you quoted, but there is no consciousness...

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Probably the best analogy we can use to understand this is a computer and it's operating system. Destroy the computer and the operating system cannot function. Take away the operating system and the computer does not work. They must be united. This is what happens at the resurrection, a reuniting of the spirit with a body.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally Posted by urk,

how can you bring yourself closer to god when you refuse to take the FIRST STEP to salvation.

Originally Posted by Butch5,

I came to that realization some time ago. Christians, at least in America, are going to believe what they want to believe regardless of what the Scriptures say.

Well, what DO the Scriptures say concerning this so called first step?

• Proverbs 16:9: "The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord DIRECTS HIS STEPS."

• Proverbs 20:24: "Man's STEPS are ordained by the Lord, how then can man understand his way?"

Who is it that directs and ordains man's so-called first "step" to salvation?

• John 6:44: "No one is able to come to Me UNLESS the Father Who sent Me DRAWS HIM unto Me."

No one even realizes they NEED to take that first step because they are lost in total darkness:

• Job 37:19: "WE CANNOT arrange our case because of darkness"

• Romans 3:10-11: "There is none that understands, there is NONE THAT SEEKS after God."

The Scriptures plainly teach that the natural (earthly) man is blinded to the truth:

• 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: in whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ ... should shine unto them"

The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned, and the natural man has not the Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:14). Thus the sinner does not realize and appreciate the value of the salvation that is offered to him. In the first place, he does not know that he is lost, and hence feels no need of salvation. Secondly, this sinner does not know that the salvation offered him in Christ is worth anything. All he has to go by in determining its worth is the lives of those who profess to possess it, and they for the most part, are very deficient illustrations of its merit.




How long did God wait for the ''decision' of Saul of Tarsus when "it pleased God to call him?". You say that was 'different?' How and why? Did Saul of Tarsus get 'special privilege' of God's intervention? If so, then God is not what the Scriptures say He is:

• Acts 10:34 "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons."

You say; what if people resist God's call? Can they? Could Saul of Tarsus resist God's call? After all, if Saul, a man who hated and resisted Christianity more than anyone on Earth couldn't resist, could anyone? What do the Scriptures say?

• Romans 9:19: "Who has WITHSTOOD HIS INTENTION?"
  
  [*]Isaiah 14:27: "For the Lord of Hosts has planned it, who can frustrate it?"

Was there not a time when you were unwilling to come to Christ? Of course there was. Since then, you have come to Him. Are you now prepared to give Him all the glory for that (Psalms 115:1)? Do you not acknowledge that you came to Christ because the Holy Spirit brought you from unwillingness to willingness? Or did YOU do this by your OWN WILL? It might appear that YOUR WILL acted and that YOU yielded to the claims of Christ upon you. But before you 'Yielded,' the Holy Spirit overcame the native enmity of your mind against God (Romans 8:7).

This natural enmity God does not overcome in all people at this time (Matthew 22:14). Is it because they are unwilling for their enmity to be overcome? NO! NONE seek God and are 'willing' UNTIL He has put forth His all-mighty power and wrought a miracle of grace in the heart.



This is what the Scriptures say Butch5. Now (to quote your words), are you going to believe what you want to believe regardless of what the Scriptures say?

 

[Guest]

I came to that realization some time ago. Christians, at least in America, are going to believe what they want to believe regardless of what the Scriptures say.

salvation is all in god's timing, something i'm slowly learning.

 

[Webb]

Hi John8:32--The body but not the spirit.

 

[Osgiliath]

salvation is all in god's timing, something i'm slowly learning.

That's exactly right! This is why the idea of God torturing and burning people alive for eternity because they do not believe in Him is totally nuts. In God's appointed TIME, He will DRAW people to Him:

• John 6:44: "NO ONE is able to come to Me UNLESS the Father Who sent Me DRAWS HIM unto Me."

And contrary to what people say, according to the Scriptures, no one can resist His calling (will):

• Romans 9:19: "Who has WITHSTOOD HIS INTENTION?"
  
  
  [*]Isaiah 14:27: "For the Lord of Hosts has planned it, who can frustrate it?"

• Romans 9:16: "It is NOT of him that WILLS or of him that runs, but of GOD that shows mercy."
  
  
  [*]Philippians 2:13: "For it is God who works in you both TO WILL and TO DO for His good pleasure."
  
  
  [*]Ephesians 1:11: "In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him WHO WORKS ALL THINGS according to the counsel of HIS WILL."

Saul of Tarsus is our example.

(see post #66 above)

 

[Guest]

That's exactly right! This is why the idea of God torturing and burning people alive for eternity because they do not believe in Him is totally nuts. In God's appointed TIME, He will DRAW people to Him:

god doesn't send people to hell, god gave us a choice! people send themselves to hell by refusing salvation. people still refuse even at the end of their lives, which is the prime example of a hard heart. hell wasn't meant for people, it was made for the devil and his angels. god isn't just holy, he's sinless. why would god allow sin into the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 7:7 - are people asking, seeking and knocking.

 

[JLB]

Anything in the OT, you can't refer to hell or Satan (as the devil) in the Christian interpretation. It is vital to understand that the Hebrews did not believe in a hell (sheol does not mean hell), nor do they see Satan as the devil. This is covered in another thread.

Once again, the OT is the history and genealogy of the Hebrews, written in Hebrew, by the Hebrews, for the Hebrews. Why would they talk about things that their religion does not consider doctrinal? That would be like me explaining how to clean a shotgun, but I start talking about what my favorite hunting knife is (completely unrelated).

Aside from that, the verses you quoted speak of the "Joy of Jerusalem's future" and their rise to dominance once again. Those who rebelled against God and opposed the Hebrews will be put to death. Has nothing to do with hell (especially since they don't believe in it).

It's all about the context!

The bible is written for anyone who chooses to follow God's will.

Abraham was not a Jew!

All of the bible is God's word, you either chose to believe it or not.

Do you believe what Jesus said -

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched-- ...

Do you believe there is a hell where the fire is never quenched?

Yes or No?


JLB

 

[reba]

Some of the language that is being used in these forums is going to
stop.

I could not stand before God/Jesus and tell Him this person is
saved that one is not. That is His doing not ours.

We are to spread
the gospel. Knowing the gospel is not worded the same to each of our
understanding, but most Christians have guide lines.

Jesus said 'what
ever you do to the least of these you have done it unto Me.' We need to start
treating each other as Jesus would. That includes, giving a glass of water, to
which words we use.

Words that say in one form or another 'believe as
I do or your not saved' Will not be tolerated. Calling our brothers and sisters
liars, in any form, as in false..that is not true etc.

It is not that
difficult to say I disagree with that teaching here is why....



Would we really post all that we do (self included) if we could see with our
natural eyes Jesus looking over our shoulders?

Lets see if we can
discuss Scripture and our differences in a more Godly manor.

Php_4:8
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest,
whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure,
whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there
be any virtue, and if
there
be any praise, think on these
things.

Please adapt this post to this thread... We are not here to be rude or to be right.


I have posted this same post a couple time in the last few minutes.. Both times just after JLB has posted this is not directed at and one member... Don't want JLB to get a complex

 

[Vanguard]

Do you believe what Jesus said -

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched-- ...

Do you believe there is a hell where the fire is never quenched?

Yes or No?


JLB

JLB, you really need to learn the difference between literal, metaphorical, allegorical and parable. I have said it a hundred times: CONTEXT!

 

[Butch5]

Well, what DO the Scriptures say concerning this so called first step?

• Proverbs 16:9: "The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord DIRECTS HIS STEPS."

• Proverbs 20:24: "Man's STEPS are ordained by the Lord, how then can man understand his way?"

Who is it that directs and ordains man's so-called first "step" to salvation?

• John 6:44: "No one is able to come to Me UNLESS the Father Who sent Me DRAWS HIM unto Me."

No one even realizes they NEED to take that first step because they are lost in total darkness:

• Job 37:19: "WE CANNOT arrange our case because of darkness"

• Romans 3:10-11: "There is none that understands, there is NONE THAT SEEKS after God."

The Scriptures plainly teach that the natural (earthly) man is blinded to the truth:

• 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: in whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ ... should shine unto them"

The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned, and the natural man has not the Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:14). Thus the sinner does not realize and appreciate the value of the salvation that is offered to him. In the first place, he does not know that he is lost, and hence feels no need of salvation. Secondly, this sinner does not know that the salvation offered him in Christ is worth anything. All he has to go by in determining its worth is the lives of those who profess to possess it, and they for the most part, are very deficient illustrations of its merit.




How long did God wait for the ''decision' of Saul of Tarsus when "it pleased God to call him?". You say that was 'different?' How and why? Did Saul of Tarsus get 'special privilege' of God's intervention? If so, then God is not what the Scriptures say He is:

• Acts 10:34 "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons."

You say; what if people resist God's call? Can they? Could Saul of Tarsus resist God's call? After all, if Saul, a man who hated and resisted Christianity more than anyone on Earth couldn't resist, could anyone? What do the Scriptures say?

• Romans 9:19: "Who has WITHSTOOD HIS INTENTION?"
  
  [*]Isaiah 14:27: "For the Lord of Hosts has planned it, who can frustrate it?"

Was there not a time when you were unwilling to come to Christ? Of course there was. Since then, you have come to Him. Are you now prepared to give Him all the glory for that (Psalms 115:1)? Do you not acknowledge that you came to Christ because the Holy Spirit brought you from unwillingness to willingness? Or did YOU do this by your OWN WILL? It might appear that YOUR WILL acted and that YOU yielded to the claims of Christ upon you. But before you 'Yielded,' the Holy Spirit overcame the native enmity of your mind against God (Romans 8:7).

This natural enmity God does not overcome in all people at this time (Matthew 22:14). Is it because they are unwilling for their enmity to be overcome? NO! NONE seek God and are 'willing' UNTIL He has put forth His all-mighty power and wrought a miracle of grace in the heart.



This is what the Scriptures say Butch5. Now (to quote your words), are you going to believe what you want to believe regardless of what the Scriptures say?

Hi Osgiliath,

I'll have to disagree with you on some this.

 

[JLB]

Do you believe there is a hell where the fire is never quenched?

JLB, you really need to learn the difference between literal, metaphorical, allegorical and parable. I have said it a hundred times: CONTEXT!

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched-- ...

Do you believe there is a hell where the fire is never quenched?

Yes or No?

 

[King James]

How hard is this? when you see hell, realize it is really hades/sheol-a temp place

tartersause is place for sinning angels

lake of fire is to come in final judgement can be considered hell if you want

 

[reba]

Section 2: Specific Rules, Guidelines and Processes (the “meat†of the ToS)

2.1: This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act. Please read: Statement of Faith

 

[farouk]

O: Sorry, but what you call a 'rigid Fundamentalist agenda' may actually be what the Word of God says, which we should receive meekly (James 1.21). I would lovingly encourage you to consider this.

 

[Osgiliath]

May actually be? I guess "may" is good enough for you.

Peace

 

[farouk]

May actually be?

O: ...instead of what you suggested it was. Do keep searching the Scriptures, and I honestly hope God will bless you, Friend.