Bible Study But Election Isn't Fair!

[miamited]

Yes, but the difference is, a sinner is one who acknowledges himself as a sinner, a snob is a sinner who regards himself as a saint and looks down on other sinner, such as that Pharisee looking down at the tax collector. Anytime we compare ourselves to somebody else and mentally give us a pat on the back: "at least I'm better than that loser," we're behaving like a snob.

Hi Carry_Your_Name

You likely should have made your private interpretation public so that people would understand that there was a lot more to understand about your claim to believe it. But we're all sinners friend and no, being a sinner doesn't necessarily cause someone to seek God's salvation as your post seems to want to make by the words that you wrote.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Hi Carry_Your_Name

You likely should have made your private interpretation public so that people would understand that there was a lot more to understand about your claim to believe it. But we're all sinners friend and no, being a sinner doesn't necessarily cause someone to seek God's salvation as your post seems to want to make by the words that you wrote.

Of course not, only those who WANT to be saved seek salvation. You can lead a horse to a river, but you can't force it to drink, right? And that's the vast majority of people. You know, the gospel can be summed up in five words “Jesus died for my sins." - 1 Cor. 15:3. A snob denies himself as a sinner and blames the world for all of his problems, sin is an antiquated word that doesn't exist in his dictionary, why would he seek salvation? And that's not my interpretation of anything, but a simple fact which I observed.

 

[miamited]

Mornin' Carry_Your_Name

Of course not, only those who WANT to be saved seek salvation.

Right. So your claim above isn't normally true about sinners is it? According to the words of the one who came to seek and to save, most sinners won't seek him. Your observations are duly noted.

 

[miamited]

Hi again Carry_Your_Name

I see that you hail from Taiwan. Is the growth of believers fairly strong there? We just completed our annual Lottie Moon offerings, and I know that Asian nations are a large part of that cause. So, I'm just curious as to how such missionary work of time past has borne fruit for the Kingdom.

 

[miamited]

Yes, but the difference is, a sinner is one who acknowledges himself as a sinner, a snob is a sinner who regards himself as a saint and looks down on other sinner, such as that Pharisee looking down at the tax collector.

Well, I'm not in agreement with that claim. A sinner is one who has refused God His rightful place in their life. Now, some sinners may be snobs, but, according to your words here, they're all sinners.

Wrong. A snob thinks about the cross as nonsense, a sinner desperately, joyfully, graciously seeks salvation from the cross.

But I believe that the intention of this claim misrepresents that fact. And again, according to Paul, it isn't snobs who think the message of the cross is foolishness, but those who are perishing. Those who are perishing would be sinners.

 

[electedbyHim]

Of course not, only those who WANT to be saved seek salvation. You can lead a horse to a river, but you can't force it to drink, right? And that's the vast majority of people. You know, the gospel can be summed up in five words “Jesus died for my sins." - 1 Cor. 15:3. A snob denies himself as a sinner and blames the world for all of his problems, sin is an antiquated word that doesn't exist in his dictionary, why would he seek salvation? And that's not my interpretation of anything, but a simple fact which I observed.

only those who WANT to be saved seek salvation.

What Scripture do you base that opinion on?

Romans 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

Romans 8:7-8 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God, for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God.

On the other hand.....

John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

 

[Whatever]

You're being an ideologue, I'm not. The spirit warned Paul that in the last days people will depart from faith and seek their own pleasure, we're there.

So, we should just give up and “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.”
We are still to do what we are instructed to do. Appoint elders in every city or congregation.

1 Timothy 5:20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.

2 Timothy 2:24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

 

[miamited]

Hi Carry_Your_Name

If I may, I understand your frustration that the sin of the world seems to be overtaking everything. But that's what the Scriptures tell us is going to happen. We are seeing the fulfillment of the prophecies of how people will be living in the last days. We should not be anxious or unknowing that these things are going to be happening.

Paul lists a fairly full accounting of the sin of people living on the earth as we move closer and closer to the day of our Lord's return. But Jesus gave us a command. One that has no bearing on how wicked the people of the world will be living their lives. Denying God in pretty much every avenue of their lives. Jesus' command to us is that as we live our lives, going about doing the same thing that Paul did. The same thing that Peter and John and the first disciples did... tell those with whom we have an opportunity about the mercy and love that God has shown all of us through the sacrifice of His Son.

That's the work that was established before the foundations of the world were established. Yes, we can bemoan how bad it is out there. Trust me, here in the states the filth and rot has gotten so ingrained that people don't even notice it. But those are the lost and the perishing that we have been warned are going to live more and more willfully sinning. Even to the point that they give approval to those who do such things. That's what Paul writes to us.

Yes, there are snobbish christians. People who are a part of the fellowship of believers. Peter and Paul both warned us of that eventuality. That there will be wolves among the flock. Jesus has even warned us that not everyone who calls out to him as Lord will be saved. So, I hear your complaint, and I agree with you that there are sinners among the fellowship of believers who are still living in sin and distorting what God's word says. Don't be one of them. You be about doing the work that the Lord has told you to be doing.

 

[miamited]

With all the mercy and compassion that you can muster, tell the lost about Jesus, when they ask. And if you want to be an evangelist for Jesus, then you don't have to wait until they ask to tell them. But we're told to always be prepared to give an answer to those of our hope... when they ask.

Read the Scriptures. Take up God's challenge to renew your mind by the washing of the word. Then be faithful and merciful to those who are perishing. Understand that they just don't believe the truth and that Jesus has asked you to speak to them as you are able about his sacrifice that made provision for our sin.

The late Billy Graham was one such faithful servant of God in doing what, I believe, God wants each of us to be doing. He never condemned people for their sin individually. Sure, he preached about sin and its consequences for us, but his message was not one of finger pointing condemnation for sin, but proclaiming that Jesus was the answer for our sin. Thousands of people made confessions as he preached among the nations. Are all of them truly saved? I'm sure not. But that wasn't Mr. Graham's responsibility. That's the responsibility of God's Holy Spirit. The Scriptures tell us that once we profess Jesus as Lord, then the Holy Spirit is given to us to convict us of sin and righteousness.

God bless you and persevere to the end in your faithfulness to Him who created all that exists... even you.

 

[Tenchi]

What Scripture do you base that opinion on?

Romans 3:11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

This quotation by Paul of Psalm 14 is actually set against its original context by the Calvinist who wants to assert from Paul's quotation of the Psalm the total inability/depravity of man. But look at the end of Psalm 14:

Psalm 14:5-6
5 There they are in great dread, For God is with the righteous generation.
6 You would put to shame the counsel of the afflicted, But the LORD is his refuge.

According to the Calvinist who misconstrues both Paul's and David's words, there can be no such thing as a "righteous generation" whose refuge is the Lord. There is no one who understands or seeks for God, right? Of course, Job, Noah, Daniel, David and Cornelius all confound this thinking, being men who are given high acclaim by God in Scripture but none of whom were spiritually-regenerated after the manner of a post-Calvary Christian.

But who is it David is speaking of in Psalm 14?

Psalm 14:1
1 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good.

David identifies in this verse very clearly that he is writing of the fool who has denied God, not every single person who lives. All such fools are abominable, none of them do good, and so on. When the Calvinist takes Paul's quotation of Psalm 14 to mean "everyone," they are totally ignoring the contextual constraint that Psalm 14 contains and so, find themselves in direct conflict with scriptural examples of men who were very righteous but not born-again.

David actually writes often in the Psalms of the righteous person who, on Calvinism, doesn't exist. No one is righteous, all are totally depraved, according to the Calvinist, and so there can be no such thing as a righteous person. But, then, David wrote Psalm 1, Psalm 5:12, Psalm 11:5, Psalm 32:11, and so on. He very clearly believed there were righteous people.

So, for those who aren't of the Calvinist bent, be very wary of TULIP. There are far better, more biblical and rational systematics of soteriology than the Reformed one:

www.soteriology101.com - Provisionism.
www.evangelicalarminians.org - Arminianism.
www.reasonablefaith.org - Molinism.

 

[electedbyHim]

This quotation by Paul of Psalm 14 is actually set against its original context by the Calvinist who wants to assert from Paul's quotation of the Psalm the total inability/depravity of man. But look at the end of Psalm 14:

Psalm 14:5-6
5 There they are in great dread, For God is with the righteous generation.
6 You would put to shame the counsel of the afflicted, But the LORD is his refuge.

According to the Calvinist who misconstrues both Paul's and David's words, there can be no such thing as a "righteous generation" whose refuge is the Lord. There is no one who understands or seeks for God, right? Of course, Job, Noah, Daniel, David and Cornelius all confound this thinking, being men who are given high acclaim by God in Scripture but none of whom were spiritually-regenerated after the manner of a post-Calvary Christian.

But who is it David is speaking of in Psalm 14?

Psalm 14:1
1 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good.

David identifies in this verse very clearly that he is writing of the fool who has denied God, not every single person who lives. All such fools are abominable, none of them do good, and so on. When the Calvinist takes Paul's quotation of Psalm 14 to mean "everyone," they are totally ignoring the contextual constraint that Psalm 14 contains and so, find themselves in direct conflict with scriptural examples of men who were very righteous but not born-again.

David actually writes often in the Psalms of the righteous person who, on Calvinism, doesn't exist. No one is righteous, all are totally depraved, according to the Calvinist, and so there can be no such thing as a righteous person. But, then, David wrote Psalm 1, Psalm 5:12, Psalm 11:5, Psalm 32:11, and so on. He very clearly believed there were righteous people.

So, for those who aren't of the Calvinist bent, be very wary of TULIP. There are far better, more biblical and rational systematics of soteriology than the Reformed one:

www.soteriology101.com - Provisionism.
www.evangelicalarminians.org - Arminianism.
www.reasonablefaith.org - Molinism.

According to the Calvinist who misconstrues both Paul's and David's words, there can be no such thing as a "righteous generation" whose refuge is the Lord. There is no one who understands or seeks for God, right? Of course, Job, Noah, Daniel, David and Cornelius all confound this thinking, being men who are given high acclaim by God in Scripture but none of whom were spiritually-regenerated after the manner of a post-Calvary Christian.

Of course thiat is your opinion, and you are entitled to that.

The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God.

The fool is the unregenerate, the unsaved. Regenerate people do not say there is no God.


Nowhere does Scripture say that God gives "high acclaim to the unregenerate (unsaved).

Of course, Job, Noah, Daniel, David and Cornelius all confound this thinking, being men who are given high acclaim by God in Scripture but none of whom were spiritually-regenerated after the manner of a post-Calvary Christian.

So none of these men were saved and are not with the Lord?

I am trying to understand you.

 

[Whatever]

This quotation by Paul of Psalm 14 is actually set against its original context by the Calvinist who wants to assert from Paul's quotation of the Psalm the total inability/depravity of man.

Well, what does this say?
Psalm 14:2 The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. 3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.

Who is God leaving out in "the children of men"? The "all" there must mean everyone because it is backed up with "not even one."

Psalm 14:5-6
5 There they are in great dread, For God is with the righteous generation.
6 You would put to shame the counsel of the afflicted, But the LORD is his refuge.

According to the Calvinist who misconstrues both Paul's and David's words, there can be no such thing as a "righteous generation" whose refuge is the Lord.

There you go again saying what Calvinists believe or don't believe.
I think it is talking about when Joshua sent out the spies to Jericho. Rahab hit the spies on the roof and sent the guys looking for them out somewhere else. Then:

Joshua 2:7 So the men pursued after them on the way to the Jordan as far as the fords. And the gate was shut as soon as the pursuers had gone out. 8 Before the men lay down, she came up to them on the roof 9 and said to the men, “I know that the LORD has given you the land, and that the fear of you has fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land melt away before you. 10 For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red Sea before you when you came out of Egypt, and what you did to the two kings of the Amorites who were beyond the Jordan, to Sihon and Og, whom you devoted to destruction. 11 And as soon as we heard it, our hearts melted, and there was no spirit left in any man because of you, for the LORD your God, he is God in the heavens above and on the earth beneath.

There is the wicked in great dread, and the Jews of that time were the righteous generation.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Mornin' Carry_Your_Name

Right. So your claim above isn't normally true about sinners is it? According to the words of the one who came to seek and to save, most sinners won't seek him. Your observations are duly noted.

No, sinners do seek salvation, but most of them end up with a false messiah, anything Satan has to offer instead of what God has to offer.

 

[electedbyHim]

No, sinners do seek salvation, but most of them end up with a false messiah, anything Satan has to offer instead of what God has to offer.

Can you provide a Biblical reference for that statement.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Hi again Carry_Your_Name

I see that you hail from Taiwan. Is the growth of believers fairly strong there? We just completed our annual Lottie Moon offerings, and I know that Asian nations are a large part of that cause. So, I'm just curious as to how such missionary work of time past has borne fruit for the Kingdom.

Very much, we pray regularly and edify one another with word of God. One woman was laid off and she prayed on her knees fervently for another job, God showed her a neighborhood in a vision. About a month or so later she found a caretaking job in that neighborhood. You know the gospel must be preached to all nations to bear witness, the last stop is Jerusalem.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Can you provide a Biblical reference for that statement.

Matt. 24:5

 

[electedbyHim]

Matt. 24:5

Says nothing about seeking salvation in the verse or context.

The natural man wants nothing to do with God.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Well, I'm not in agreement with that claim. A sinner is one who has refused God His rightful place in their life. Now, some sinners may be snobs, but, according to your words here, they're all sinners.

Yes, we're all sinners, but we're not all snobs. I think you might be triggered by the word "snob", you understand the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector, you just don't like the way I address him as a snob.

But I believe that the intention of this claim misrepresents that fact. And again, according to Paul, it isn't snobs who think the message of the cross is foolishness, but those who are perishing. Those who are perishing would be sinners.

According to Paul, the cross is nonsense to both Jews and Greeks, it's only power and wisdom to those who're called - both Jews and Greeks.

For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. (1 Cor. 1:22-25)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

What Scripture do you base that opinion on?

Jesus answered and said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” Lk. 5:31-32

On the other hand.....

John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. Jn. 6:35

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

So, we should just give up and “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.”
We are still to do what we are instructed to do. Appoint elders in every city or congregation.

Go ahead if that's what you want. We're instructed to have an ear to hear, no matter what kind of church you're in. Whom will you serve is your choice to make.