Bible Study But Election Isn't Fair!

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ELECTION

<e-lek’-shun> ([ἐκλογή, ekloge], “choice,” “selection”):

THE WORD IN SCRIPTURE.

The word is absent from the Old Testament, where the related Hebrew verb ([בָּחַר, bachar]) is frequent. In the New Testament it occurs 6 times (Romans 9:11; 11:5, 7, 28; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2 Peter 1:10). In all these places it appears to denote an act of Divine selection taking effect upon human objects so as to bring them into special and saving relations with God: a selection such as to be at once a mysterious thing, transcending human analysis of its motives (so eminently in Romans 9:11), and such as to be knowable by its objects, who are (2 Pet) exhorted to “make it sure,” certain, a fact to consciousness. It is always (with one exception, Romans 9:11; see below) related to a community, and thus has close affinity with the Old Testament teachings upon the privileged position of Israel as the chosen, selected race (see under ELECT). The objects of election in the New Testament are, in effect, the Israel of God, the new, regenerate race called to special privilege and special service. From one point of view, that of the external marks of Christianity, they may thus be described as the Christian community in its widest sense, the sense in which the sacramental position and the real are prima facie assumed to coincide. But from 2 Peter it is manifest that much more than this has to be said if the incidence of the word present to the writer’s mind is to be rightly felt. It is assumed there that the Christian, baptized and a worshipper, may yet need to make “sure” his “calling and election” as a fact to his consciousness. This implies conditions in the “election” which far transcend the tests of sacred rite and external fellowship.

INCIDENCE UPON COMMUNITY AND INDIVIDUAL.

It is observable that the same characteristic, the inscrutable, the sovereign, is attached in the Old Testament to the “election” of a favored and privileged nation. Israel is repeatedly reminded (see e.g. Deuteronomy 7) that the Divine call and choice of them to be the people of God has no relation to their virtues, or to their strength. The reason lies out of sight, in the Divine mind. So too “the Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16) in the New Testament, the Christian community, “the new, peculiar race,” holds its great privileges by quite unmerited favor (e.g. Titus 3:5). And the nature of the case here leads, as it does not in the case of the natural Israel, to the thought of a Divine election of the individual, similarly inscrutable and sovereign. For the idea of the New Israel involves the thought that in every genuine member of it the provisions of the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31 f) are being fulfilled: the sins are remembered no more, and the law is written in the heart. The bearer of the Christian name, but not of the Christian spiritual standing and character, having “not the Spirit of Christ, is none of his” (Romans 8:9). The chosen community accordingly, not as it seems ab extra, but as it is in its essence, is a fellowship of individuals each of whom is an object of unmerited Divine favor, taking effect in the new life. And this involves the exercise of electing mercy. Compare e.g. 1 Peter 1:3. And consider Romans 11:4-7 (where observe the exceptional use of “the election,” meaning “the company of the elect”).

COGNATE AND ILLUSTRATIVE BIBLICAL LANGUAGE.

It is obvious that the aspects of mystery which gather round the word “election” are not confined to it alone. An important class of words, such as “calling,” “predestination” “foreknowledge,” “purpose,” “gift,” bears this same character; asserting or connoting, in appropriate contexts, the element of the inscrutable and sovereign in the action of the Divine will upon man, and particularly upon man’s will and affection toward God. And it will be felt by careful students of the Bible in its larger and more general teachings that one deep characteristic of the Book, which with all its boundless multiplicity is yet one, is to emphasize on the side of man everything that can humble, convict, reduce to worshipping silence (see for typical passages Job 40:3, 1; Romans 3:19), and on the side of God everything which can bring home to man the transcendence and sovereign claims of his almighty Maker. Not as unrelated utterances, but as part of a vast whole of view and teaching, occur such passages as Ephesians 2:8, 9 and Romans 11:33-36, and even the stern, or rather awestruck, phrases of Romans 9:20, 21, where the potter and the clay are used in illustration.




Orr, J., M.A., D.D. (1999). The International standard Bible encyclopedia : 1915 edition (J. Orr, Ed.). Albany, OR: Ages Software.
 
God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved &lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.​


Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

1 Thessalonians 1:2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; 3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; 4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. 5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

God calls us to believe, to receive Christ Jesus as Savior, by grace through faith.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Ephesians 2: 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

No one can receive Jesus as Savior unless God draws them to Him and one cannot repent unless God grants repentance.

John 6: 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
 
God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved &lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.​


Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

1 Thessalonians 1:2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; 3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; 4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. 5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

God calls us to believe, to receive Christ Jesus as Savior, by grace through faith.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Ephesians 2: 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

No one can receive Jesus as Savior unless God draws them to Him and one cannot repent unless God grants repentance.

John 6: 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
It’s interesting that you mention where Jesus says that no one can come to him unless the Father draw him.

I was recently booted off another forum (Calvinist) for simply stating how I understood the verse. Calvinist don’t like anyone who disagrees with them.
Most Christians are that way.

Anyway, I explained that what Jesus taught was not his own doctrines. His words are not his own words. That what Jesus says and does is the will of the Father. Jesus tells us all of that.
The context is all there. All anyone has to do is put in the context along with the verse of the Father drawing men to Christ.
Towards the end of the discussion , Jesus said that the words he spoke were Spirit and that the flesh profits nothing.

So I explained that the Father was drawing men to Christ by the Spirit words Christ was speaking. That the words Christ spoke were the words the Father had given him to speak in order that the will of the Father be accomplished.

Basically Christ was giving the credit to the Father for drawing men to Christ by the words Christ spoke.

The Calvinist didn’t like that so they gave me the boot.

It’s funny how they praise “Church Fathers” who expressed their ideas but condemn anyone else who does so.
 
Anyone who says the law is not just and right and good is lawless.

The law that gets us all is that pesky 10th commandment. It speaks right to the root of all evil. It speaks right to our very nature.
It’s the one that got Adam and Eve.

Our nature disqualifies us from a strict adherence to the law.

The only one who obeyed it completely was Christ. He denied himself at every turn.
He’s my hero.
I didn't say that the Law isn't just and right and good. I said that those who think they can keep it are fooling themselves and are not living according to the Grace of God. Of course the Law is right and good---God is right and good. But Paul tells us the Law was given to SHOW US WHAT SINNERS WE ARE. It wasn't given with the expectation that any man could keep it.

Only Jesus has ever kept the Law. He kept it perfectly and died as "the Lamb of God" for all of our sins and rebellion. You speak of a covenant that two parties need to keep--the very reason Jesus came to earth and died is because there is "none righteous, no, not one". The New Covenant is based on what Jesus DID, not on what we can DO. That's what I was trying to explain. I do not nullify the holiness of God or His Law. But Jesus fulfilled it. We cannot possibly hold up what is required of us by the Law. But Jesus already DID.
 
I didn't say that the Law isn't just and right and good. I said that those who think they can keep it are fooling themselves and are not living according to the Grace of God. Of course the Law is right and good---God is right and good. But Paul tells us the Law was given to SHOW US WHAT SINNERS WE ARE. It wasn't given with the expectation that any man could keep it.

Only Jesus has ever kept the Law. He kept it perfectly and died as "the Lamb of God" for all of our sins and rebellion. You speak of a covenant that two parties need to keep--the very reason Jesus came to earth and died is because there is "none righteous, no, not one". The New Covenant is based on what Jesus DID, not on what we can DO. That's what I was trying to explain. I do not nullify the holiness of God or His Law. But Jesus fulfilled it. We cannot possibly hold up what is required of us by the Law. But Jesus already DID.
So we obey Jesus’ commandments because it is reasonable to do so. We don’t do with the attitude that we can save ourselves by it. It’s a duty as servants.

It’s reasonable to ask his followers to love God with all their heart and to love their neighbor as themselves. Else they’d be indistinguishable.
 
I didn't say that the Law isn't just and right and good. I said that those who think they can keep it are fooling themselves and are not living according to the Grace of God. Of course the Law is right and good---God is right and good. But Paul tells us the Law was given to SHOW US WHAT SINNERS WE ARE. It wasn't given with the expectation that any man could keep it.

Only Jesus has ever kept the Law. He kept it perfectly and died as "the Lamb of God" for all of our sins and rebellion. You speak of a covenant that two parties need to keep--the very reason Jesus came to earth and died is because there is "none righteous, no, not one". The New Covenant is based on what Jesus DID, not on what we can DO. That's what I was trying to explain. I do not nullify the holiness of God or His Law. But Jesus fulfilled it. We cannot possibly hold up what is required of us by the Law. But Jesus already DID.
It had always been believed in both Jewish and early Christian thought that “son of man” simply referred to “human”.
Adam was the first human, and all of his progeny were also human. Adam is called man and so everyone who comes from Adam is also man.
So a son of man is a son of Adam or simply one of mankind.

For some who hold certain beliefs, this becomes a problem. The RCC recognized the problem so they invented a doctrine called “immaculate conception”.
For them this solved the problem of Jesus being a son of Adam or man, without having the original sin that is passed to all of Adam’s other sons.

Why they invented the doctrine of original sin in the first place is rather odd.

The Scripture simply says that by Adam’s sin death has passed to all mankind because all of mankind were in Adam when he sinned. IOW, the nature Adam had when he sinned is the same nature passed to the rest of man. That’s what it means to be in him when he sinned.

Are we to doubt that death had passed to Jesus by Adam?
Certainly it had. Otherwise he would not be of mankind and a son of man. A human.

The doctrine of original sin and the immaculate conception does not belong in Scripture. That’s probably why it’s not found there.

To get it right, simply go by what the scripture does say.

Adam sinned in the same way all humans sin. They desire something forbidden them. And the very fact that they desire it even though it is forbidden shows the sinful nature of the man of dust, called the natural man.
A person does not even have to commit adultery if he does in his heart.
Man does not even have to actually trespass the law to see himself.
It took Adam to actually tresspass the law in order to see himself.

What Adam saw was the same man God created. The only difference was he had sinned. His nakedness before God was revealed to him.

This altogether was not a totally bad thing because Adam now had the knowledge of both good and evil.

It’s good for man to know both good and evil. The bad part is that it came with death as its price tag.

So Adam’s nature was the same before he sinned and after. And he was kept from the tree of life because there was also to be a price to eat of that tree.

The price would come from one just like Adam. One of Adam’s sons. A son of man with the same nature as all the rest.

But this man would not fail as Adam did. This man would deny himself of all the pleasures this world offers. This man would not sin even when tempted.
Unlike all the rest, this man would be completely obedient to his Father.
Even to the point of laying down his own life so that the flesh nature of natural man could be condemned by God and a new nature created by resurrection.
A nature that death has no more dominion over. A nature that can not be tempted by evil because temptation brings sin and sin brings death. The new nature is called the divine nature.
And it can only come by resurrection or an instant change. If an instant change happens the person is taken up by God. Just as those raised from the dead are taken up to be with the Lord.

I hear people talk about having already received the new nature. If so why are they still here and why are they still dying?

No, the dying nature had to be condemned by God through one who was completely obedient even though he shared that same nature.

So Christ never dies again and neither will those who are faithful in him. Because he will raise them up on the last day to be forever with him where he is.
 
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What God predetermined was that Christ was to come by the promise He made to Abraham. Christ was to come through a specific line by which the inheritance was to be obtained.

How can you claim that God’s choice of Isaac, by whom was to come Christ, means He chooses everyone else who is to be heir with Christ and Abraham and Issac through no choice of their own?

It’s a simple matter of God revealing His plan of salvation to not only the Jewish people but also for Gentiles.

And that plan was established 430 years before the law at Mount Sinai.

When the seed had come, so had the promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
And the offer becomes open to Gentiles. To be heirs of the same promise. By the same faith of Abraham. To all those who had, have, and will have that same faith.

The promise made to Abraham has yet to be completely fulfilled. This means the day of salvation is still present.
And believers are exhorted not to fall back to the deceitfulness of sin or they will be cut off.

The promise to Abraham came without the law. The law was given to the Jews 430 years later so that they might recognize their own inability to live up to it completely and to seek salvation by faith instead. The same faith of Abraham.
Believers like Isaac were children of promise Gal 4:28

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Isaac had no choice on whether or not he was going to be a heir,a believer, God predetermined that, so it is with all believers/heirs , Abrahams Spiritual children
 
Believers like Isaac were children of promise Gal 4:28

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Isaac had no choice on whether or not he was going to be a heir,a believer, God predetermined that, so it is with all believers/heirs , Abrahams Spiritual children
They are the children of promise because the promise is obtained through Christ.
It is not obtained through Abraham, Isaac or Jacob.
They are heirs only because it is obtained through Christ by faith.
Without Christ, no one inherits the promises.
Nor can the promise be obtained without faith.

All those of faith like Abraham become the seed of promise just as Isaac by whom Christ would come. The promise to Abraham would continue through Isaac and then Jacob. And finally confirmed in Christ.
It has nothing to do with Isaac’s choice to be heir. The promise was made to Abraham through Isaac….then Jacob….of Christ, by whom all nations would be blessed.
 
Believers like Isaac were children of promise Gal 4:28

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Isaac had no choice on whether or not he was going to be a heir,a believer, God predetermined that, so it is with all believers/heirs , Abrahams Spiritual children
Here’s a riddle for you. The RCC has all the O.T. Saints having gone to heaven even before Christ had come and died and been raised to life again.
They all obtained the inheritance before the one by whom the inheritance was to be obtained had even come.
Figure that one out.
 
LeviR

They are the children of promise because the promise is obtained through Christ.

Now thats True, however they are still Abrahams Seed promised to him, but Christ makes them spiritual believers, for Christ is Abrahams Spiritual seed Gal 3:16,29

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
 
Here’s a riddle for you. The RCC has all the O.T. Saints having gone to heaven even before Christ had come and died and been raised to life again.
They all obtained the inheritance before the one by whom the inheritance was to be obtained had even come.
Figure that one out.
Dont have time for silly riddles. But believers are made so to fulfill Gods promise to Abraham, that he was made a Father to many nations Gen 17:5

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

God is responsible to produce the children of Abraham because its His Promise as so with Isaac
 
Tenchi

I'm glad that you understand those passages quoted in the OP. If you could please share that information with us. Please tell us what you think Paul is saying in these Passages Romans 9:11-13, 18-20. What is your understanding of these verses? That way, we will have something to apply all that context that you've provided to, other than 'I don't want to believe it'. You can even use your parentheses method, but, instead of your understanding of Calvinism, you can insert (Tenchi believes this means...). :thm

This is a subtle - and false - framing of my views. It's not, on my part, merely a matter of "my understanding" nor is it that "I don't want to believe Calvinism" but that God's word simply doesn't teach TULIP. This is demonstrated in the far more biblically and rationally robust alternative soteriological systematics that I mentioned already: Arminianism, Molinism, Provisionism.

For thorough treatments of Romans 9 from a non-Calvinist perspective, simply search them out on the websites to which I've provided links in earlier posts.
Romans 9:11-13 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!

Romans 9:18-20 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"

There is more to the chapter 9 than these sections, which I've already pointed out in this thread. But if you want good alternatives to the Calvinist (mis)interpretation of the chapter here are some links:

https://soteriology101.com/?s=Romans+9
 
When Paul speaks to the Gentiles it must be remembered that they were not under the laws of God. God gave His laws to the Jews only.
Then why was Sodom and Gomorrah judged for homosexuality, or as some insist, "inhospitality"? This was hundreds of years before Moses.

Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave
1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
 
Hi Whatever
Then why was Sodom and Gomorrah judged for homosexuality, or as some insist, "inhospitality"?
I'm not sure I follow why you believe that Sodom and Gomorrah were judged for homosexuality. They were judged for their sin. Homosexuality was just a part of their sin. God has been judging mankind for sin since at least the flood.
 
I'm not sure I follow why you believe that Sodom and Gomorrah were judged for homosexuality.

Jude 1:7
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.


To what does "unnatural desire" refer? Just sin in general? No:

Romans 1:26-27
26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
 
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I'm not sure I follow why you believe that Sodom and Gomorrah were judged for homosexuality. They were judged for their sin. Homosexuality was just a part of their sin. God has been judging mankind for sin since at least the flood.
Okay, they were judged for sin. But everybody keeps telling me that they were not under the law.
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

If there was no law till God gave it to the Jews on Mt. Sinai what "law" did the Sodomites sin against.
 
This is a subtle - and false - framing of my views. It's not, on my part, merely a matter of "my understanding" nor is it that "I don't want to believe Calvinism" but that God's word simply doesn't teach TULIP. This is demonstrated in the far more biblically and rationally robust alternative soteriological systematics that I mentioned already: Arminianism, Molinism, Provisionism.

For thorough treatments of Romans 9 from a non-Calvinist perspective, simply search them out on the websites to which I've provided links in earlier posts.


There is more to the chapter 9 than these sections, which I've already pointed out in this thread. But if you want good alternatives to the Calvinist (mis)interpretation of the chapter here are some links:

https://soteriology101.com/?s=Romans+9

:) I must have the gift of prophecy. I knew this would be your answer. Five pages of trying to get you to make a theological stand on the scripture that you're claiming doesn't say what it says. And you still run.
 
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