Bible Study But Election Isn't Fair!

[Tenchi]

I must have the gift of prophecy. I knew this would be your answer. Five pages of trying to get you to make a theological stand on the scripture that you're claiming doesn't say what it says. And you still run.

"Run"? You've got a very Calvininst way of framing things, don't you? Didn't you begin this thread, not by posting your own thoughts, but an excerpt from someone else? And haven't Calvinists cut-and-pasted Calvinist writings not their own in this thread? "Yes," to both questions. But when I point to the work of others on the question of Calvinist doctrines suddenly I'm "running." Interesting. Maybe even a bit hypocritical?

 

[Tenchi]

Tulip actually teaches the Gospel of Gods Grace ! And you speak evil against it and God

You've drunk the Kool-Aid of Calvinist propaganda, I'm afraid. The "doctrines of grace," as Calvinists like to describe their dogma, make God both diminished and monstrous. Check out the links I posted to alternative soteriological systematics. None of them make of God what Calvinism does.

 

[Dave...]

"Run"? You've got a very Calvininst way of framing things, don't you? Didn't you begin this thread, not by posting your own thoughts, but an excerpt from someone else? And haven't Calvinists cut-and-pasted Calvinist writings not their own in this thread? "Yes," to both questions. But when I point to the work of others on the question of Calvinist doctrines suddenly I'm "running." Interesting. Maybe even a bit hypocritical?

Romans 9:11-13 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!

Romans 9:18-20 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"

 

[miamited]

Okay, they were judged for sin. But everybody keeps telling me that they were not under the law.
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

If there was no law till God gave it to the Jews on Mt. Sinai what "law" did the Sodomites sin against.

The same one that pre-flood mankind violated. God's law. It just hadn't been written down yet. God pronounced judgment on sin when Adam and Eve first sinned in the garden. He told them that the consequence of sin was death. He meted out that consequence in the flood and with Sodom and Gomorrah. And even when the law was given, it was only given to the people of Israel in a wilderness. There was still an entire world of people that weren't aware of that law either. God is righteous and He has warned us of the consequences of our sin, rebellion to His authority, since the first rebellion was committed when Adam and Eve took a bite of that fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.

I suppose your position is that if God didn't stop and tell every single one of those people that were swept away in the flood what they were doing was a sin against His righteousness, then He was unfair in killing them. Ok. If you want to go with that you can, but God's word says that as the potter, the maker of mankind, He has the right to do with us as He sees fit.

This is one of the problems with those who believe that we are born sin free and therefore worthy to be saved when we are born. No we aren't. We have been born into sin as sinners since the garden and every single one of us, you, me and all the other people on the earth are eligible to come under God's condemnation. But God has put in place a merciful plan whereby after we are born as sinners, we can find salvation in the sacrifice of Jesus and turning back to God's righteous way of living.

Everyone who has ever been born has come under the law of death for our sin since Adam and Eve ate the fruit. What the law does, and what the Scriptures tell us that the law does, is simply make us aware of that sin so that we know that we need to turn to God's mercy allowed through His Son. The law given to Israel in the desert isn't where God started condemning people for their sin. That was in the garden. Read it!

 

[miamited]

Hi Tenchi

Romans 1:26-27
26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

Don't stop there. Those two sentences are embodied in an entire list of sins against God and mankind. Just because the part about sexual immorality fits with your argument doesn't mean that's the only sin that God judges us for. However, it doesn't really matter what their sin was. It was sin and according to God's word, their sin was so great that God was disgusted that He had even made man. So he called down judgment on mankind. God has that authority as the creator of all that exists.

You're welcome to grouse and groan about it not being fair in your eyes or not. But I don't think that God has ever presented His case as having to be fair in the eyes of mankind. I mean really, is it fair that the vast majority of mankind will be lost to the fires of hell just because they didn't trust Jesus and his testimony? Well, apparently in God's sight it is. That's all that matters.

 

[brightfame52]

You've drunk the Kool-Aid of Calvinist propaganda, I'm afraid. The "doctrines of grace," as Calvinists like to describe their dogma, make God both diminished and monstrous. Check out the links I posted to alternative soteriological systematics. None of them make of God what Calvinism does.

Serious Tulip actually teaches the Gospel of Gods Grace ! And you speak evil against it and God

 

[LeviR]

Then why was Sodom and Gomorrah judged for homosexuality, or as some insist, "inhospitality"? This was hundreds of years before Moses.

Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Sodom and Gomorrah were judged in Adam. Condemned by Adam’s sin. Just like every other human. Even Jesus.
The laws given by God through Moses were given to the Jews only. Who were also condemned in Adam.
The law was given to them for two reasons. First, it pointed to Christ as a shadow. And secondly, it was to convict the Jews of their inability to keep it.
Paul calls the law the “ministration of condemnation”.

Anyone who thought they could attain the righteousness required by the law in order to obtain salvation for themselves were only kidding themselves.

When judged against God’s law, Sodom and Gomorrah would be just as guilty as the Jews who were under His law.

 

[miamited]

Look, God chose Abram to begin the beginning of building a nation of people to honor and obey Him on the earth. Was it fair that He chose Abram of all the people on the earth? I don't know. But God apparently decided that it was. That's all that matters. Read the Scriptures and believe them!!! Whether they fit with your sense of fairness and justice or not, they are God's testimony to us of all that He has done; the choices that He has made and how He sees sin and righteousness. God may not see it as you do, but He's the one who matters, my friend.

 

[Hidden In Him]

You've drunk the Kool-Aid of Calvinist propaganda, I'm afraid.

Serious Tulip actually teaches the Gospel of Gods Grace ! And you speak evil against it and God

Respectful please, Gentlemen. It's been a good and polite discussion. Keep it that way.

 

[LeviR]

Serious Tulip actually teaches the Gospel of Gods Grace ! And you speak evil against it and God

Total Depravity is based on the idea that man is spiritually dead to the point that he would not of his own will or desire seek the salvation God provides through Christ.
He is compared to as a corpse that must first be awakened from that death or he would never come to faith.

The only way to sell that idea is to proclaim the sovereignty of God in all matters.
It must be shown that every choice anyone could ever make is under God’s control. And is determined by Him alone.

Therefore, the idea of an offer of salvation being opened to the Gentiles because of the unbelief of the Jews actually has no meaning. Just as exhorting believers to remain faithful has no meaning. It becomes nonsense. Foolishness.

But preaching and exhortation is only foolishness to those who are not sincere in heart. To those who have alternative motives.

And that is what separates the wheat from the chaff. The pure in heart are made just while evil intentions are not.

 

[Fish153]

Total Depravity is based on the idea that man is spiritually dead to the point that he would not of his own will or desire seek the salvation God provides through Christ.
He is compared to as a corpse that must first be awakened from that death or he would never come to faith.

The only way to sell that idea is to proclaim the sovereignty of God in all matters.
It must be shown that every choice anyone could ever make is under God’s control. And is determined by Him alone.

Therefore, the idea of an offer of salvation being opened to the Gentiles because of the unbelief of the Jews actually has no meaning. Just as exhorting believers to remain faithful has no meaning. It becomes nonsense. Foolishness.

But preaching and exhortation is only foolishness to those who are not sincere in heart. To those who have alternative motives.

And that is what separates the wheat from the chaff. The pure in heart are made just while evil intentions are not.

LeviR---- In an earlier post you said:

"Are we to doubt that death had passed to Jesus by Adam?
Certainly it had. Otherwise he would not be of mankind and a son of man. A human".

No---you are absolutely mistaken. Death did NOT pass to Jesus. What was the need of the Virgin Birth? The Virgin Birth came into play to avoid the death that was passed through Adam's seed. Jesus was the result of the Holy Spirit "creating" Jesus within the womb. Joseph was NOT the physical father of Jesus. It was because of sin and death that the Virgin Birth was necessary. Jesus IS the NEW man----Adam was the OLD man. When we receive Jesus Christ and are born-again we are now IN CHRIST----we are IN the NEW MAN. "If any man be IN CHRIST he IS a NEW CREATION..." (2 Cor. 5:17). Your doctrine about Jesus inheriting death is untrue.

Yes--- we ARE all completely dead in trespasses and sins. As dead as Lazarus was physically. Lazarus could make no choice to COME FORTH--he had to be CALLED FORTH by Jesus. We are in the same state spiritually. We must be CALLED FORTH out of death. Read John 1:12,13:

"Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—born not of natural descent, NOR OF HUMAN DECISION, or a husband’s will, but BORN OF GOD". (John 1:12,13) We are born-again by the will of God---not by OUR DECISION in the matter.

Here is a Biblical example of God ENABLING someone to believe the truth:

"On the Sabbath we went outside the city gate to the river, where we expected to find a place of prayer. We sat down and began to speak to the women who had gathered there. One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. THE LORD OPENED HER HEART TO RESPOND TO PAUL'S MESSAGE." (Acts 16: 13,14)

She was very religious---a "worshipper of God"----but she wasn't regenerated until the Spirit gave her the ability to understand.

 

[Tenchi]

Don't stop there. Those two sentences are embodied in an entire list of sins against God and mankind.

??? My point in citing the verses from Romans 1 that I did was to clarify that Jude 1:7 was referring to homosexuality and not to sin generally.

Just because the part about sexual immorality fits with your argument doesn't mean that's the only sin that God judges us for.

??? I wasn't offering an argument addressing the fairness of God's judgment upon sin but simply using Scripture to clarify itself. And, for the record, nowhere in this thread have I ever indicated that I think God is unfair. I think the Calvinist version of God is unjust and irrational, but the God of the Bible is not.

It was sin and according to God's word, their sin was so great that God was disgusted that He had even made man. So he called down judgment on mankind. God has that authority as the creator of all that exists.

Yes. Right.

You're welcome to grouse and groan about it not being fair in your eyes or not.

??? I haven't "groused or groaned" about God being unfair so far in the thread, so why would I begin now?

I mean really, is it fair that the vast majority of mankind will be lost to the fires of hell just because they didn't trust Jesus and his testimony?

I think a very reasonable case can be made from Scripture and from Reason that God's eternal punishment of the wicked is just. But a God who makes people sin and then punishes them for what He made them do is profoundly unjust - evil, in fact.

 

[Whatever]

Sodom and Gomorrah were judged in Adam.

Don't think so. Why wasn't every other town in the world destroyed by fire and brimstone?

I suppose your position is that if God didn't stop and tell every single one of those people that were swept away in the flood what they were doing was a sin against His righteousness, then He was unfair in killing them. Ok. If you want to go with that you can, but God's word says that as the potter, the maker of mankind, He has the right to do with us as He sees fit.

You are addressing this to me, I don't believe that. I was trying to get those who believe that if you haven't heard or learned the law, then you can't be guilty of breaking it.

 

[miamited]

??? I wasn't offering an argument addressing the fairness of God's judgment upon sin but simply using Scripture to clarify itself. And, for the record, nowhere in this thread have I ever indicated that I think God is unfair. I think the Calvinist version of God is unjust and irrational, but the God of the Bible is not.

??? I haven't "groused or groaned" about God being unfair so far in the thread, so why would I begin now?

So we are in agreement on that.

I think a very reasonable case can be made from Scripture and from Reason that God's eternal punishment of the wicked is just. But a God who makes people sin and then punishes them for what He made them do is profoundly unjust - evil, in fact.

And I think we're in agreement there also.

But getting back to the issue of election. It isn't what some people want to make it out to be that God specifically picks individuals by name before the foundation of the earth was established. The elected, as I think you may have pointed out, referred to certain specific people of the old covenant, just as the prophets were 'elected' to be what they were for God... His mouthpiece to be used by him. JOhn the Baptist was elected. Abraham was elected. And to groups of people, specifically the generations of Abraham. Those people were elected to do the work that they did for God's purposes.

Then the second word, 'predestined' is that all those who 'will' believe the testimony of Jesus and repent and turn back to God were 'predestined' from the beginning of the creation to be saved. That makes Jesus' command to us to spread the gospel to all nations meaningful. If certain people were going to be saved anyway as individual people that God had chosen since before the creation, then why would we spread the gospel? God chose them and they're going to be saved. Would the argument be that if I didn't spread the gospel to them that would change God's predestination of them? I don't think so.

God wants us to spread the good news so that others will join with Him and be saved. If specific people were predestined from the creation then Jesus comes and dies to pay the price for their sin and never comes back. The price was paid and those predestined would then be able to go before God. No reason to preach the gospel to a lost world that wasn't going to be saved anyway unless God had already chosen them.

 

[brightfame52]

LeviR

Total Depravity is based on the idea that man is spiritually dead to the point that he would not of his own will or desire seek the salvation God provides through Christ.

Man by nature is dead spiritually, cant do anything of a spiritual nature, required first to be made alive. In his dead condition he doesnt understand or seek after God see Rom 3:11

11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[electedbyHim]

No, TULIP actually diminishes God, making Him weak and monstrous.

Do you understand the doctrines of Grace?

Most say they get it and understand it, but I find that they are clueless when talking with them.

The truth of the Doctrines of Grace gives the Lord 100% Sovereighnty and Glory.

Humans get no credit, as it should be.

 

[LeviR]

LeviR---- In an earlier post you said:

"Are we to doubt that death had passed to Jesus by Adam?
Certainly it had. Otherwise he would not be of mankind and a son of man. A human".

No---you are absolutely mistaken. Death did NOT pass to Jesus. What was the need of the Virgin Birth? The Virgin Birth came into play to avoid the death that was passed through Adam's seed. Jesus was the result of the Holy Spirit "creating" Jesus within the womb. Joseph was NOT the physical father of Jesus. It was because of sin and death that the Virgin Birth was necessary. Jesus IS the NEW man----Adam was the OLD man. When we receive Jesus Christ and are born-again we are now IN CHRIST----we are IN the NEW MAN. "If any man be IN CHRIST he IS a NEW CREATION..." (2 Cor. 5:17). Your doctrine about Jesus inheriting death is untrue.

Yes--- we ARE all completely dead in trespasses and sins. As dead as Lazarus was physically. Lazarus could make no choice to COME FORTH--he had to be CALLED FORTH by Jesus. We are in the same state spiritually. We must be CALLED FORTH out of death. Read John 1:12,13:

"Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—born not of natural descent, NOR OF HUMAN DECISION, or a husband’s will, but BORN OF GOD". (John 1:12,13) We are born-again by the will of God---not by OUR DECISION in the matter.

Here is a Biblical example of God ENABLING someone to believe the truth:

"On the Sabbath we went outside the city gate to the river, where we expected to find a place of prayer. We sat down and began to speak to the women who had gathered there. One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. THE LORD OPENED HER HEART TO RESPOND TO PAUL'S MESSAGE." (Acts 16: 13,14)

She was very religious---a "worshipper of God"----but she wasn't regenerated until the Spirit gave her the ability to understand.

if Jesus was not subject to the death brought by Adam’s sin it could not be said of him that death no longer has dominion over him when he was raised from the dead to die no more.
The reality is that death did have dominion over him because he was a son of man(Adam).
And the reason he is called son of God speaks to his ability to create the other sons of God who are made so by him through faith.

It is legally just that the inheritance offered include only the sons of God. And that the death of the owner to bequeath the inheritance must come first.

That is man’s system. But in God’s system, He bequeaths the inheritance to not only those who are the surviving relatives but also to the ones who have died.

It’s like the person who owns a large estate and determines that only his sons will inherit that estate.. That when the owner dies, his sons split the inheritance.

But in God’s plan, the one who owns the estate is Himself and He who owns it never dies..
So God’s plan was to make His only son the one whom the inheritance can come. And it would be His only son who was to die so that the inheritance might be obtained by all who are made sons through him.

But God planned it so that His son by whom the inheritance is obtained also be made alive again so that he too might share in the inheritance.

That’s the way Imsee it.

 

[Tenchi]

The truth of the Doctrines of Grace gives the Lord 100% Sovereighnty and Glory.

A peculiar way, it seems to me, to define doctrines of grace. But I understand that the Calvinist believes that the more God meticulously ordains everything (i.e He is sovereign) the more gracious He is thought to be - though such ordination means He is the Ultimate Cause of rape, murder, incest, genocide, pedophilia, gluttony, etc. And His salvation is only for an arbitrarily selected few under these doctrines of grace, the majority of folk sovereignly ordained by Him to suffer in hell for all eternity. Yes, the "grace" just oozes from these doctrines...

 

[Whatever]

Yes, the "grace" just oozes from these doctrines...

It does for the multitude of those saved from every tongue, tribe and nation.
You seem to forget that there will be a judgment day where billions will perish in the lake of fire.

Your view of God graciously desires for all men to be saved, but set it up in the way that most perish.
Mat 7:14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Your way doesn't seem any more gracious for billions of people either.

I bet you are going to say "at least they had a choice." Did they?

Here is a little about the flood from Answers in Genesis:
Others believe that Earth’s population was much higher. If the growth rate in the pre-Flood world was equal to the growth rate in 2000 (0.012), there could have been about 750 million people at the time of the Flood. However, given the extremely long lifespans prior to the Flood, the growth rate could have been much higher. Increasing the rate by just 0.001 would put the population at close to four billion at the Flood.
This flood caught most of them unaware anything was going on. Even cut it way down to 50 million or 10 million. I just looked it up and the population of New York in 2024 is 19,469,200 = 19 and a half million.
Imagine that many people being killed like in a tsunami or something and had no chance.
Is that gracious to you?

It is facts like that which cause Atheists to say things like:
"When someone like myself points out the rather obvious and compelling evidence that God is cruel and unjust, because he visits suffering on innocent people of a scope and scale that would embarrass the most ambitious psychopath, we're told that? God is mysterious." ~ Sam Harris

 

[electedbyHim]

A peculiar way, it seems to me, to define doctrines of grace. But I understand that the Calvinist believes that the more God meticulously ordains everything (i.e He is sovereign) the more gracious He is thought to be - though such ordination means He is the Ultimate Cause of rape, murder, incest, genocide, pedophilia, gluttony, etc. And His salvation is only for an arbitrarily selected few under these doctrines of grace, the majority of folk sovereignly ordained by Him to suffer in hell for all eternity. Yes, the "grace" just oozes from these doctrines...

A peculiar way, it seems to me, to define doctrines of grace.

We are a peculiar people.

Calvinist believes that the more God meticulously ordains everything (i.e He is sovereign) the more gracious He is thought to be

Perhaps.

though such ordination means He is the Ultimate Cause of rape, murder, incest, genocide, pedophilia, gluttony, etc.

This is part of God's permissive will (allowing evil to occur).

His salvation is only for an arbitrarily selected few under these doctrines of grace

His elect (chosen) are not randomly selected.
Acts 13:48

the majority of folk sovereignly ordained by Him to suffer in hell for all eternity

Ephesians 1:11
Proverbs 16:4
1 Peter 2:7-8
Jude 4
2 Peter 2:3
Romans 9:11
Romans 9:22

It is important to understand that everyone who goes to hell has chosen sin and is responsible for their choice and deserving of the Lords divine judgement.