[_ Old Earth _] Buttercups and the Frozen Woolly Mammoth

[Sparkey]

Too many years ago for me to cite the original article (I've tried to locate it) there was published findings that mentioned the Bird's Eye people going to the frozen tundra (not even sure where today, memory fails) and to examine the remains of Mammoths. Reported was something that intrigued me as a Creationist. There was documentation of flowers that would not grow in frozen climates, buttercups - if memory serves, being found in the mouths of the quick frozen beasts.

Scientists were involved and examined the contents of their stomachs as well as what was found in their mouths. The thoughts of the frozen food experts at the Bird's Eye corporation were documented to describe how fast the temperature must be lowered for such preservation. Again, that was information gleaned back in the 70's.

Today, we know much more about the subject and I've recently read related articles that point out that the stomachs of modern elephants actually work to preserve food, and retard decay which was unknown at the time of the initial reports. This is the kind of thing that causes me to reflect that God is no respecter or persons. He opposes those who, in their own opinions, are wise (in their own eyes). The thought that I had then seemed much more solid and conclusive than it does today.

Today, I ponder the absolute nature of "facts" vs. evidence as I continue to wonder about the God we all serve.

 

[Narwhalist]

You say - Sparrowhawke: He opposes those who, in their own opinions, are wise (in their own eyes).

But does he oppose learning. You are confusing wisdom with knowledge. Dawkins has a lot of knowledge, but apparently not much wisdom.
Remember "Love you God with all your heart, soul and mind. Well it seems that when one tries to love God with our mind, and we learn something that someone else does not agree with, we are now, in God's eyes "thinking that we are too wise."
This is a pet peeve of mine. Why would God oppose my learning about the natural world He created? If you don't want to believe it, fine. But don't tell me that in God's eyes I am presumed to be "too wise for my own good," for you really don't know anything about my relationship with the Lord.

 

[Knotical]

Of course God wants us to learn, but not through the lens of a philosophy that removes Him from the equation of how nature works.

 

[cupid dave]

You say - Sparrowhawke: He opposes those who, in their own opinions, are wise (in their own eyes).

But does he oppose learning. You are confusing wisdom with knowledge. Dawkins has a lot of knowledge, but apparently not much wisdom.
Remember "Love you God with all your heart, soul and mind. Well it seems that when one tries to love God with our mind, and we learn something that someone else does not agree with, we are now, in God's eyes "thinking that we are too wise."
This is a pet peeve of mine. Why would God oppose my learning about the natural world He created? If you don't want to believe it, fine. But don't tell me that in God's eyes I am presumed to be "too wise for my own good," for you really don't know anything about my relationship with the Lord.

I agree with you.
It is difficult to understand on what foundation people stand when they discount disciplines like Science, Math, or Logic.

Discipline are actually orderly approaches to developing ideas which have a foundation in something concrete.
Ideas are developed out of other ideas which seemed true, hence can be used to supportother ideas as true, also

What so many of the present church people are doing is merely repeating what some guy who started their denomination said.
They have taught every generation of children to understand things in the Bible based imply on the tradition of the last generation saying the same thing.

In every case, if one goes back a century, or even a millennium with certain churches, we find that one man was saying the things they both repeat and defend as absolutely the only way to undrstand the Bible.

Be it Wycliff, Luther, Russell, Smith, Calvin, whoever,... it is one medieval minded man who they defend against these disciplines of knowledge they repudiate.
Why can't they see the danger to their churches in this?

 

[cupid dave]

Of course God wants us to learn, but not through the lens of a philosophy that removes Him from the equation of how nature works.

Religion is a philosophy, of course.
And don't forget that Paul addressed the Stoics and Epicureans when he said they actually worship YHVH, but they id not even know it becuse they had not read the scritures;

18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.
For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

 

[Narwhalist]

Of course God wants us to learn, but not through the lens of a philosophy that removes Him from the equation of how nature works.

Sorry to inform you, but again, you don't know my heart. I am not removing Him from any equation. You are, by not acknowledging His methods of creating.

Psalm 19:1-3 - The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge.

You are the one not listening to what nature is telling you. You are the one that, for some inexplicable reason, are not listening to what nature is telling you through scientific discovery. Notice that the Psalm mentions the work of His hands. Work, work. Or do you conveniently ignore scripture when it doesn't agree with your worldview.

Psalm 8:3 - David saying to God.
When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers,... - again work of your fingers. More work. Not a wave of His hands and poof everything is there as it is now, but a wave of his hand and His work begins and progresses as He designed it to.

Nobody is removing Him from anything. On the contrary, I am more in awe of Him for what He has created for it is beyond anything a mind can comprehend. The only one removing Him are people like you, presuming to know the heart and mind of those you judge.

 

[Sparkey]

You say - Sparrowhawke: He opposes those who, in their own opinions, are wise (in their own eyes).

But does he oppose learning. You are confusing wisdom with knowledge. Dawkins has a lot of knowledge, but apparently not much wisdom.
Remember "Love you God with all your heart, soul and mind. Well it seems that when one tries to love God with our mind, and we learn something that someone else does not agree with, we are now, in God's eyes "thinking that we are too wise."
This is a pet peeve of mine. Why would God oppose my learning about the natural world He created? If you don't want to believe it, fine. But don't tell me that in God's eyes I am presumed to be "too wise for my own good," for you really don't know anything about my relationship with the Lord.

I'm confused by what I read here. Are you certain that I said that God opposes learning?

 

[Narwhalist]

Ok, answer me this, and before I ask you, if I have misunderstood you, I apologize. But who are you referring to when you mention "He opposes those who, in their own opinions, are wise (in their own eyes)."

 

[Sparkey]

Here is a link to 200 Scriptures about Pride. You may get the gist of what I was trying to refer to by skimming through it. I was in reference to my own self, admitting that I had considered myself wise in my own eyes and realize today that God is no respecter of persons. I do know that He loves me, and do wish to please Him over all.

In point of fact, it was continued learning about a subject that I considered conclusive (where I thought I "knew" something) that brought me to better understand.

 

[Narwhalist]

Then I stand corrected and sorry for misunderstanding your post.

 

[Knotical]

Sorry to inform you, but again, you don't know my heart. I am not removing Him from any equation. You are, by not acknowledging His methods of creating.

Psalm 19:1-3 - The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge.

You are the one not listening to what nature is telling you. You are the one that, for some inexplicable reason, are not listening to what nature is telling you through scientific discovery. Notice that the Psalm mentions the work of His hands. Work, work. Or do you conveniently ignore scripture when it doesn't agree with your worldview.

Psalm 8:3 - David saying to God.
When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers,... - again work of your fingers. More work. Not a wave of His hands and poof everything is there as it is now, but a wave of his hand and His work begins and progresses as He designed it to.

Nobody is removing Him from anything. On the contrary, I am more in awe of Him for what He has created for it is beyond anything a mind can comprehend. The only one removing Him are people like you, presuming to know the heart and mind of those you judge.

My, aren't you making some grandiose assumptions about me. Methinks you took my comment a bit to personal, yes? I am not judging anyone, just merely alluding to the fallacy of believing in a philosophy (evolution) that does take God out of the equation as to how nature works. God is the sole force behind the intelligent design of this wonderful universe. Man has tried to discount it by coming up with their own "version" of how things came to be.

This is the end of any debate on this subject (at least on my part). I see not point in rehashing a subject that was moot to begin with.

 

[Knotical]

Ok, I'm all ears. You tell me how God created everything.

Read Genesis, it is all in there.

 

[Sparkey]

Isaiah 40:13
"Who has understood the mind of the LORD, or instructed him as his counselor?"

Jeremiah 23:18
"But which of them has stood in the council of the LORD to see or to hear his word? Who has listened and heard his word?"

John 15:15
"I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you."

Romans 11:34
"Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?"

1 Corinthians 12:8
"To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,"

My guess is that no matter how we search no man will know the full mind of God. This is simply unsearchable but a worthy endeavour none-the-less.

But we have the mind of Christ - He has endowed us with the same disposition, being born again by his Spirit; therefore we are capable of knowing his mind and receiving the teachings of his Spirit. These teachings we do receive, and therefore are well qualified to convey them to others. The words, that he may instruct him, συμβιβασει αυτον, should be translated that he may teach It: that is, the mind of God; not instruct God, but teach his mind to others. And this interpretation the Hebrew will also bear.

This then is the essence of it all - that each of us, as Christians, are able to communicate directly with Him who is our Counselor, our Teacher and Comforter. Or as the Holy Spirit penned through the Apostle John, "As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him." (New International Version (©1984).

DISCLAIMER: These things certainly do not and may not mean that we are free to toss away the words and instructions of the Apostles who set the very foundations of the faith, the rock upon which we stand together in order to build each other up in our most holy faith. Nor would the proper understanding these truths and freedoms urge us to ignore the prior moves of the Holy Spirit seen through the various men used throughout the ages and who have dedicated their lives to these studies and the knowledge of the Word of God. Still, it is good to know that we can and should have confidence as we continue to ask, seek, knock, knowing that it shall be opened, given and answered.

 

[Sparkey]

Ok, I'm all ears. You tell me how God created everything.

Let's not invite too much here, but you're welcome to open a new thread about "How God Created Everything" if you'd like. I could do this for you, and will be happy to copy my comments (and the deleted comment, newly revived) into your new thread.