Deborah13
Member
Here's the link. My esword doesn't have it either but sometimes it doesn't have full definitions.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G5206&t=KJV
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buying and selling
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Here's the link. My esword doesn't have it either but sometimes it doesn't have full definitions.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G5206&t=KJV
Deborah13
Member
I've been trying to keep up on the trends in the Orthodox community in Israel. I recently read an article about the changing so that if one had a Jewish father they could apply for Jewish status in the synagogue. Of coarse they would have to go through and approved education if they had been raised Jewish.
A
agua.
Guest
Ah ok. This doesn't necessarily mean its use in Ephesians 2 is "The Rabbis used the term "to make nigh" as equivalent to "to make a proselyte" though eh.
Deborah13
Member
I agree, it may not.
So what is the other one?
1) Jews, as opposed to those who are alien from God and his blessings
We are no longer alien to God and His blessings. Per Eph. 2
Correct?
A
agua.
Guest
Ah ok I was still a little confused with the proselyte thing esp considering the introduction of the definitions of "nigh" Remember the usages of "nigh" don't define where each use is appropriate.
The Church is the Body of Believers which was initiated by the Blood of Jesus as per Ephesians 2. What is your definition ?
A
agua.
Guest
Yes correct. In relation to Romans 11 though it doesn't make us Jews/Israel though correct ?
Deborah13
Member
I don't know what "as per Ephesians 2" means.
To you...
1) Who is in that Body of Believers?
2) Initiated by the Blood of Jesus? ( do you mean atonement? if so see # 3)
3) Who received atonement for their sin when Jesus became the sin-offering?
I already told you who I believe is the Body of Christ many posts ago.
All believers before and after the cross.
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A
agua.
Guest
Here's something interesting we may both be missing Debs concerning Gentiles who are graffed into the Olive Tree and adoption. I don't see the concept as the same because we become adopted children of God through belief as per Ephesians 1
Eph 1:5 KJV Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Whereas to become adopted into Israel is to become a member of the Nation. @ different adoptions/concepts ?
Eph 1:5 KJV Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Whereas to become adopted into Israel is to become a member of the Nation. @ different adoptions/concepts ?
A
agua.
Guest
How about answering my questions along the way too bus driver.
1. The Body of believers is all believers which include Jew and Gentile etc.
2. I mean this Body didn't exist before.
Eph 2:16-17 KJV And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: (17) And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
3 .All believers.
Can you please add your answers to these questions please.
Deborah13
Member
How about answering my questions along the way too bus driver.( The Church is the Body of Believers which was initiated by the Blood of Jesus as per Ephesians 2. What is your definition ? )
1. The Body of believers is all believers which include Jew and Gentile etc.
2. I mean this Body didn't exist before.
Eph 2:16-17 KJV And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: (17) And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
3 .All believers.
Can you please add your answers to these questions please.
I did, although I had Jew and Gentile, which I edited to say "all believers before and after the cross".
In Ephesians, Paul was talking to "living" people. People who were alive at that time. You and the Jews, that are believers are both in the Body of Christ..
If the saints before the cross are Not in Christ how was their sin atoned for? And when was it atoned?
A
agua.
Guest
Ok man another rabbit trail and you're doing it again ie. ( If the saints before the cross are Not in Christ how was their sin atoned for? ) I'll accept you question is rhetorical but it comes across as assigning this position to me ie. OT Saints aren't included in the Body which was actualised at the Cross. The concept of Jew and Gentile being brought together after the Cross was a mystery until Jesus revealed it. Ephesians 2 shows this and of course the ante Cross Saints are included in this atonement. This atonement wasn't actualised until Jesus died because it required His sacrifice.
Eph 2:16-17 KJV And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: (17) And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
If Paul says we become reconciled to God in one body by the Cross what does this mean to you; what is this " one body" ?
Deborah13
Member
This is what I see. The prophets were OT saints, the Apostles were NT saints, both Jews/Israelites
And Abraham well he was a gentile chosen by God to be the father of many nations.
He was given the law of circumcision.
Eph 2:19 Then, therefore, ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens of the saints, and of the household of God,
Eph 2:20 being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being chief corner- stone ,
Eph 2:21 in whom all the building fitly framed together doth increase to an holy sanctuary in the Lord,
Eph 2:22 in whom also ye are builded together, for a habitation of God in the Spirit.
A
agua.
Guest
This doesn't answer the question Deb. Paul was talking about something that didn't exist before the Cross.
Eph 2:16 KJV And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
What is this body ?
Deborah13
Member
If verses 2:19-22 does not describe the Body of Christ, I don't know what does.
In fact, what does verses 19-22 describe?
A
agua.
Guest
Yes but that isn't the issue Deb. This group wasn't reconciled as one Body to God until the Cross as per vs 16. This Body is the Church don't make me come up there girl.
Deborah13
Member
Alright that's just enough. You are talking to a female and sometimes I just don't get the male thought patterns. Men talk jibberish sometimes; that's kinda' like Vulcan.
Explain.
A
agua.
Guest
Umm ok
There was a separation of Jew and Gentile ( which we discussed concerning a Gentile needed to join with Israel eg, proselyte to receive the blessings of Abraham etc ) which was removed when Jesus died. Now we are joined together because Jesus death fulfilled and abolished the particular things that the Jews needed to do to be near to God ( circumcision, sacrifices, feasts, Sabbaths etc) and these things also differentiated them from every other nation ( the Gentiles ) . Also the Gospel ( good news about salvation ) was sent out to the whole world after the Cross and the Holy Spirit was given effusively ( heaps more than before ).
Eph 2:15-17 KJV Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (16) And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: (17) And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
The " One new man" and "One Body" is this joining and this group is called the Church.
Now the "don't make me come up there girl" was a silly comment made in jest from an Australian ( down under ) to an American sorry about that I thought it was funny. :/
Deborah13
Member
Well yes, I agree with all of this. So what Paul is talking about is the law of Moses, which was a wall between the Jews (since Moses) and the Gentiles who never received Moses' law. Which was a covenant between the 12 tribes and God. Moses' being the mediator of that covenant.
The new covenant, was made with Abraham and his Seed, Christ. 430 yrs before Moses' Law.
By this covenant both Abraham's natural seeds and gentiles are in the same covenant, in Christ.
And it seems to me that when people are in covenants they are all in the same group.
16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
I thought it was funny, too. As I thought what I gave you back was just dessert, Aussie.
A
agua.
Guest
I think this also links with the discussion you've had concerning the law with Jethro and JLB in the other thread. The things Jesus "did away with" as well as fulfilled were the ceremonial aka " the law of commandments contained in ordinances". These things don't include the moral laws imo and according to Romans 2:14 the gentiles also had these laws . ( my turn for a rabbit trail :biggrin ) It's interesting because somehow I see the Mosaic as a subset or extension of the Abrahamic to specify the Jew but boy this is getting further than my understanding really I hope you can help me out here. :tongueerhaps the Abrahamic diverged in the Mosaic and then converged into the New in Christ ?
The new covenant, was made with Abraham and his Seed, Christ. 430 yrs before Moses' Law.
By this covenant both Abraham's natural seeds and gentiles are in the same covenant, in Christ.
And it seems to me that when people are in covenants they are all in the same group.
16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
Yes I think we need to look further into this as you say simply because they are related ( the covenants ) but not all inclusive imo. The New covenant was cut with Jesus' Blood imo and although was a culmination of the Abrahamic it isn't entirely the same. I think in the passage you've quoted we see again the distinction between the believing and unbelieving Jew aka the remnant according to grace. ie. only the believing Jew is an heir according to the promise which is actuated in Christ.
I thought it was funny, too. As I thought what I gave you back was just dessert, Aussie.
Ah ok fair enough good one :biggrin cheeky yank.
