buying and selling

[agua.]

I see that Paul is talking to some of the members of the "commonwealth of Israel."

Eph 2:11 Wherefore, remember, that ye were once the nations in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision, (of the Gentile nations, Not proselytes) by that called Circumcision (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, 12 tribes, proselytes, foreign slaves) in the flesh made by hands,

Eph 2:12 that ye were at that time apart from Christ, having been alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope, and without God, in the world;
Eph 2:13 and now, in Christ Jesus, ye being once afar off became nigh in the blood of the Christ,

So my question to you would be what is the "commonwealth of Israel?"
What are the covenants of the promise?

1. The commonwealth of Israel is National Israel which includes proselytes and adoptions etc as Jason pointed out.
2. The most important promise is salvation ( previously having no hope and without God in the world ) which is the main point here; but they also include benefit from the blessings to Israel.

Notice Paul says the Gentiles are "brought near" and not "become an Israelite" .

Can you give your answers to the 2 questions please.

foreign slaves, circumcised in order to eat the Passover Feast.
Exo 12:43 And Jehovah saith unto Moses and Aaron, `This is a statute of the passover; Any son of a stranger doth not eat of it;
Exo 12:44 and any man's servant, the purchase of money, when thou hast circumcised him--then he doth eat of it;
Exo 12:45 a settler or hired servant doth not eat of it;

I think maybe taking one question at a time would be helpful.

But I will address Jere. and Hebrews when we can get an understanding of the basics. We will never be able to see the other one's side if we are talking about two different things, two different groups of people.

oky doky was there a question about the Exo 12 proselytes ?

 

[Deborah13]

Ok ok I need to get this clear in my head if that's ok;

1. The natural branches are Israel ( including proselytes )
2. All Jews are natural branches ( including the unbelieving )
3. A Gentile who has not joined Israel ( proselyte ) is not a natural Branch.

1. yes
2. yes
3. true (but then, what are the laws of the nation of Israel about those that are adopted?)

Was Paul a natural branch ? This is what seem to be confusing me here. I have the impression that you think any person who turns to Jesus today becomes a natural branch.

Yes, Paul was a natural branch.

If a foreign slave, that had been circumcised could eat the Passover Feast, what of one who was adopted? Did they have inheritance rights just like the other sons?

 

[Deborah13]

you forget adopted sons and daughters of jews raised as jew but never were by blood. more common then you think. I know of a few.

lol, I just made a post asking about the inheritance rights of the adopted. I hit post reply and then the first post I see is this one.

 

[jasonc]

actually im one of those since my mom is a gentile. so to jews im not one. but my grandparents saw fit to love us( I have this story before) and when they died all of us received an inheritance. the other cranmans surely know that story. yet don't care.

 

[Deborah13]

1. The commonwealth of Israel is National Israel which includes proselytes and adoptions etc as Jason pointed out.

2. The most important promise is salvation ( previously having no hope and without God in the world ) which is the main point here; but they also include benefit from the blessings to Israel.

Notice Paul says the Gentiles are "brought near" and not "become an Israelite" .

Can you give your answers to the 2 questions please.

oky doky was there a question about the Exo 12 proselytes ?

I learned something again. I had never looked up this word before.

Ahh, 'made nigh'
G1451 - near of place and position

1. near
   
   
2. those who are near access to God
   1. Jews, as opposed to those who are alien from God and his blessings
      
      
   2. The Rabbis used the term "to make nigh" as equivalent to "to make a proselyte"

 

[Deborah13]

actually im one of those since my mom is a gentile. so to jews im not one. but my grandparents saw fit to love us( I have this story before) and when they died all of us received an inheritance. the other cranmans surely know that story. yet don't care.

But Jason, we see in the old testament Joseph's twin son's by the Egyptian woman inherited each one half of Joseph's tribal lands. Was she a proselyte?

 

[jasonc]

But Jason, we see in the old testament Joseph's twin son's by the Egyptian woman inherited each one half of Joseph's tribal lands. Was she a proselyte?

yes, and so were the mixed multitude and we mustn forget urijah the Hittite. why would he fight for isreal? because he loved their god and people!

 

[Deborah13]

yes, and so were the mixed multitude and we mustn forget urijah the Hittite. why would he fight for isreal? because he loved their god and people!

And King David's Philistine soldier. Ittai, who chose to stay with David. He became a member of the Commonwealth of Israel, even though he was a Philistine.

 

[agua.]

If a foreign slave, that had been circumcised could eat the Passover Feast, what of one who was adopted? Did they have inheritance rights just like the other sons?

Ah now I see the distinction. You are suggesting the wild Gentiles become proselytes of Israel when they believe but this isn't correct. A Gentile can become a Jew through proseltysation ( ante and post Cross ) but this isn't the same as joining believing Israel in the New covenant. It may sound a bit confusing but a Gentile can become a Jew and remain in unbelief which makes them a natural branch separated from the Good Olive Tree.

This concept of graffing from Romans 11 isn't about proselyting but we can say however that both Gentile and Jew unbelievers can be prosetylised into the church. This is a different concept than Paul is talking about though.

 

[jasonc]

And King David's Philistine soldier. Ittai, who chose to stay with David. He became a member of the Commonwealth of Israel, even though he was a Philistine.

this is why I don't buy the MR in the current teaching. the law cant return.

 

[agua.]

I learned something again. I had never looked up this word before.

Ahh, 'made nigh'
G1451 - near of place and position

1. near
   
   
2. those who are near access to God
   1. Jews, as opposed to those who are alien from God and his blessings
      
      
   2. The Rabbis used the term "to make nigh" as equivalent to "to make a proselyte"

Hey Debs can you chuck me the source for 2. "The Rabbis used the term "to make nigh" as equivalent to "to make a proselyte""

 

[Deborah13]

Hey Debs can you chuck me the source for 2. "The Rabbis used the term "to make nigh" as equivalent to "to make a proselyte""

Strong's G1451

 

[jasonc]

Strong's G1451

chabad would have something on that.

 

[agua.]

Yes, Paul was a natural branch.

If a foreign slave, that had been circumcised could eat the Passover Feast, what of one who was adopted? Did they have inheritance rights just like the other sons?

I want to look at this again considering ( I think ) you are suggesting a Gentile becomes a natural branch when they believe. Note I'm not talking about proselytes. Paul said he was pleading for "his kinsmen according to the flesh " which we agree are Jews/Israelite.

Rom 11:7 KJV What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

We can see from the previous passages that those that are blinded are Jews.

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Now we see the distinction between Jew and Gentile.

Rom 11:14 KJV If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

And here we see the concept that Paul wishes to provoke his unbelieving " kinsman according to the flesh " to turn to Jesus.

Rom 11:21 KJV For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

And finally we can see the distinction between the natural branches ( Jews ) and the Gentile believers "thee".

 

[agua.]

Strong's G1451

Yes but my Strong's doesn't include the extra bit about Rabbis. We must have different ones.

G1451
ἐγγύς
eggus
eng-goos'
From a primary verb ἄγχω agchō (to squeeze or throttle; akin to the base of G43); near (literally or figuratively, of place or time): - from, at hand, near, nigh (at hand, unto), ready.

 

[jasonc]

but a grafted jew that was adopted say like a man I know wouldn't be considered flesh now a days to some. even if they are allowed to be jews there is a separation. they cant be buried in a jewish cemetery. if they marry a jew. the spouse is buried with the parents as they are jews.

 

[agua.]

but a grafted jew that was adopted say like a man I know wouldn't be considered flesh now a days to some. even if they are allowed to be jews there is a separation. they cant be buried in a jewish cemetery. if they marry a jew. the spouse is buried with the parents as they are jews.

Jewish tradition isn't always in accordance with the concepts Yahweh taught. Also there are different sects with different rules in Judaism as you know.

 

[jasonc]

Jewish tradition isn't always in accordance with the concepts Yahweh taught. Also there are different sects with different rules in Judaism as you know.

chassidics are the largest and the farther back I go in my family and any old consertive its the same.

im talking about now. now that is done. by jews. I mention that for good reason. as well it depends if god will honor that jew.

he may say NOPE, because that isn't salvinical. so if was a jew, and also had 5 generations of "jews" does that mean that I count? being a jew, isn't about genes,but a faith. they say that. the jews don't even like be called a race.
so if I was an atheist, and the modern founders of isreal were all athiests. does that make my kids jews? if they never were in the temple?
NOPE.

while most jews would say they are still jews but for the point of argument, as well god said only they are faithful are jews. my point stands. futurists make this about genes, when it can be blurred. god will save jews but which type of jew will it be?

1) a mix like me?
2) an atheist jew
3) a jew who left the faith?
4) an adopted goy who converted?
5) a goy whom converted?

on 5 what if x amount of isreal is that?

 

[Deborah13]

Ah now I see the distinction. You are suggesting the wild Gentiles become proselytes of Israel when they believe but this isn't correct.

I'm not suggesting anything at this point, just digging. I already answered your question # 3, with the answer of 'true' in agreement, but then I thought of the adopted one's so that was a question.
I had no idea Strong's said that about 'nigh', that was a surprise to me.

A Gentile can become a Jew through proseltysation ( ante and post Cross ) but this isn't the same as joining believing Israel in the New covenant.

Agree

It may sound a bit confusing but a Gentile can become a Jew and remain in unbelief which makes them a natural branch separated from the Good Olive Tree.

Agree

This concept of graffing from Romans 11 isn't about proselyting but we can say however that both Gentile and Jew unbelievers can be prosetylised into the church. This is a different concept than Paul is talking about though.

What is your definition of the church?

 

[Deborah13]

I want to look at this again considering ( I think ) you are suggesting a Gentile becomes a natural branch when they believe. Note I'm not talking about proselytes. Paul said he was pleading for "his kinsmen according to the flesh " which we agree are Jews/Israelite.

Rom 11:7 KJV What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

We can see from the previous passages that those that are blinded are Jews.

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Now we see the distinction between Jew and Gentile.

Rom 11:14 KJV If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

And here we see the concept that Paul wishes to provoke his unbelieving " kinsman according to the flesh " to turn to Jesus.

Rom 11:21 KJV For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

And finally we can see the distinction between the natural branches ( Jews ) and the Gentile believers "thee".

agua, when I ask a question such as the "what of the adopted sons, did they have inheritance rights?"
I was asking. I don't know the answer to that.
So far I haven't been able to think of an example of that in the old testament. Can you?