buying and selling

[Randy]

Again we're not talking about individual salvation but the different methods Yahweh has used to bring Jew and Gentile to Him. The Israel of God are the believing Jews and not the Church.

Gal 6:16 KJV And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

There are 2 groups here in "as many as walk according to this rule of faith and the Israel of God ( the true Jew ). Do you agree Paul was both a Jew and a Christian ?

God only has one family - all are given of the same Holy Spirit. (Christ in Us) Who was Davids grandmother? Where did Abraham come from? What set them apart from the rest of the world at that time? God made a covenant with Abraham, and later confirmed His promise to Jacob. The law was introduced through Moses. God made a distinction between the righteous and unrighteous in ancient Israel and there were curses and blessings in that first Covenant. People weren't saved by birth as a Hebrew.

God made a new covenant introduced through His Christ. (Jesus -Christ the Lord) If the offspring of those early believers in Jesus remained in the faith they are more then likely called Christian in this day and age as Jesus is called Christ. But they found the forgiveness of sin in Jesus just as we all have. We are all grafted into the one true vine (Jesus) by the gardener (Father).

Randy

 

[Deborah13]

I think you like Matt Henry's commentary maybe take a look at his explanation.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/matthew-henry-complete/romans/11.html

Hi agua, hope you've had a good day. I pray blessings of patience on you because when you read this you will probably need it. But I'll be wearing my crash helmet anyway.

So I read the full commentary on Romans 11. I had read parts of it before. I Think what you wanted me to particularly pay attention to was verses around the 26th verse.

", He was dead, and is alive; and therefore it was meet we should make merry and be glad. (3.) It is called the grafting of them in again (v. 23), into the church, from which they had been broken off. That which is grafted in receives sap and virtue from the root; so does a soul that is truly grafted into the church receive life, and strength, and grace from Christ the quickening root. They shall be grafted into their own olive-tree (v. 24); that is, into the church of which they had formerly been the most eminent and conspicuous members, to retrieve those privileges of visible church-membership which they had so long enjoyed, but have now sinned away and forfeited by their unbelief. (4.) It is called the saving of all Israel, v. 26. True conversion may well be called salvation; it is salvation begun. See Acts. 2:47 . The adding of them to the church is the saving of them: tous sozomenous, in the present tense, are saved. When conversion-work goes on, salvation-work goes on.2. What it is grounded upon, and what reason we have to look for it.(1.) Because of the holiness of the first-fruits and the root, v. 16. Some by the first-fruits understand those of the Jews that were already converted to the faith of Christ and received into the church, who were as the first-fruits dedicated to God, as earnests of a more plentiful and sanctified harvest. A good beginning promises a good ending. Why may we not suppose that others may be savingly wrought upon as well as those who are already brought in? Others by the first-fruits understand the same with the root, namely, the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, from whom the Jews descended, and with whom, as the prime trustees, the covenant was deposited: and so they were the root of the Jews, not only as a people, but as a church. Now, if they were holy, which is not meant so much of inherent as of federal holiness—if they were in the church and in the covenant-then we have reason to conclude that God hath a kindness for the lump —the body of that people; and for the branches —the particular members of it. The Jews are in a sense a holy nation (Ex. 19:6 ), being descended from holy parents. Now it cannot be imagined that such a holy nation should be totally and finally cast off."
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/matthew-henry-complete/romans/11.html

I have marked what I see as the main points. What I have marked I also believe. So maybe taking just this portion you can comment on it. Comment on what I have marked, copy it and mark what you agree with or disagree, and point anything out the you perceive that I am missing.
If there is something else you want me to take into consideration from this commentary on Romans please include the text from Matt. so we are both reading the same thing.
This may be of great help to understanding each other.

 

[Deborah13]

God only has one family - all are given of the same Holy Spirit. (Christ in Us) Who was Davids grandmother? Where did Abraham come from? What set them apart from the rest of the world at that time? God made a covenant with Abraham, and later confirmed His promise to Jacob. The law was introduced through Moses. God made a distinction between the righteous and unrighteous in ancient Israel and there were curses and blessings in that first Covenant. People weren't saved by birth as a Hebrew.

God made a new covenant introduced through His Christ. (Jesus -Christ the Lord) If the offspring of those early believers in Jesus remained in the faith they are more then likely called Christian in this day and age as Jesus is called Christ. But they found the forgiveness of sin in Jesus just as we all have. We are all grafted into the one true vine (Jesus) by the gardener (Father).

Randy

I like your post very much. I'd like to ask you a question if I may. You of coarse are free to answer or not without me being discouraged.

When do you see the new covenant introduced by His Christ having it's origins?
I see that it is a covenant made with Abraham and the One Seed. We receive the blessings of this covenant of "by grace, through faith" by being in Christ. Thanks, Deborah
KJV
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Randy]

I like your post very much. I'd like to ask you a question if I may. You of coarse are free to answer or not without me being discouraged.

When do you see the new covenant introduced by His Christ having it's origins?
I see that it is a covenant made with Abraham and the One Seed. We receive the blessings of this covenant of "by grace, through faith" by being in Christ. Thanks, Deborah
KJV
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The new covenant was foretold by God through the Prophet Jeremiah because God found fault with the people.
Jeremiah 31:31
They all would have perished in their sin but for the love of God. God remembers His promises. John 11:5 And it wasn't just for them to the surprise of the Apostles. (Cornelius) Acts 10:34-35 Acts 11:17-18

Yes sanctified by faith in Jesus -grace based on the promise.

Of course you know all these things but I like writing them.

Randy

 

[Deborah13]

The new covenant was foretold by God through the Prophet Jeremiah because God found fault with the people.
Jeremiah 31:31
They all would have perished in their sin but for the love of God. God remembers His promises. John 11:5 And it wasn't just for them to the surprise of the Apostles. (Cornelius) Acts 10:34-35 Acts 11:17-18

Yes sanctified by faith in Jesus -grace based on the promise.

Of course you know all these things but I like writing them.

Randy

:amen

That's OK, I like reading them, too.

 

[agua.]

Hi agua, hope you've had a good day. I pray blessings of patience on you because when you read this you will probably need it. But I'll be wearing my crash helmet anyway.

So I read the full commentary on Romans 11. I had read parts of it before. I Think what you wanted me to particularly pay attention to was verses around the 26th verse.

I have marked what I see as the main points. What I have marked I also believe. So maybe taking just this portion you can comment on it. Comment on what I have marked, copy it and mark what you agree with or disagree, and point anything out the you perceive that I am missing.
If there is something else you want me to take into consideration from this commentary on Romans please include the text from Matt. so we are both reading the same thing.
This may be of great help to understanding each other.

Oh dear I posted an incorrect commentary how embarrassment :/ :D The problem is that using the term Church to describe believers before the Cross is inaccurate and I think you're confusing covenants. The new covenant was cut with Jesus blood.

Eph 2:11-13 KJV Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; (12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: (13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.


I've addressed the points before in previous posts and haven't been understood so I'll post someone else's words in reply to Mr Henry. We can swap commentaries and see if becomes clearer. ( the blue highlighted are reply to yours )


Romans 11:22-24

In these verses Paul summarized his whole discussion of God’s sovereign choice in temporarily putting Israel aside corporately and proclaiming righteousness by faith to all mankind. Consider (ide, “see, behold”) therefore the kindness (chrēstotēta, “benevolence in action”; also used of God in Rom_2:4; Eph_2:7; Tit_3:4) and sternness of God. “Sternness” translates apotomian, used only here in the New Testament (cf. the adverb apotomōs in 2Co_13:10 [“be harsh”] and Tit_1:13 [“sharply”]). God’s sovereign choice involved severity toward the Jews who stumbled (fell; cf. Rom_11:11) in unbelief and were hardened (Rom_11:25), but that same decision displayed the goodness of God toward individual Gentiles. God’s continuing His goodness to the Gentiles depends on their continuing in His kindness. If Gentiles do not continue in God’s kindness, they also will be cut off. This does not suggest that a Christian can lose his salvation; it refers to Gentiles as a whole (suggested by the sing. you) turning from the gospel much as Israel as a nation had done.
Conversely for the people of Israel, if they do not persist (lit., “continue”) in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. At issue is not God’s ability but God’s decision. God sovereignly chose to put Israel aside corporately because of unbelief and to extend righteousness by faith to everyone. This demonstrates His decision to graft Gentiles into the spiritual stock of Abraham (cf. Rom_4:12, Rom_4:16-17; Gal_3:14).
Obviously, therefore, if the unbelief which caused Israel’s rejection by God is removed, God is able and will graft the people of Israel (the natural branches) back into the spiritual stock to which they belong (their own olive tree). After all, as Paul wrote earlier, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved” (Rom_10:13).
The “olive tree” is not the church; it is the spiritual stock of Abraham. Believing Gentiles are included in that sphere of blessing so that in the Church Age both Jews and Gentiles are in Christ’s body (Eph_2:11-22; Eph_3:6). Yet someday Israel as a whole will turn to Christ (as Paul discussed in Rom_11:25-27). This passage does not teach that the national promises to Israel have been abrogated and are now being fulfilled by the church. This idea, taught by amillenarians, is foreign to Paul’s point, for he said Israel’s fall is temporary. While believing Gentiles share in the blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant (Gen_12:3) as Abraham’s spiritual children (Gal_3:8-9), they do not permanently replace Israel as the heirs of God’s promises (Gen_12:2-3; Gen_15:18-21; Gen_17:19-21; Gen_22:15-18).

Romans 11:25-27

3. In Israel’s Salvation (Rom_11:25-32)
Israel’s corporate stumbling, which is temporary, not permanent, is called a mystery. In Scripture a mystery is not a truth difficult to understand, but a truth previously unrevealed (and therefore unknown) which is now revealed and publicly proclaimed (cf. Eph_3:9; Col_1:26; at Mat_13:10-16, see the chart that lists NT mysteries). Paul wanted to make sure his Gentile readers knew about the mystery concerning Israel in God’s sovereign choice. God’s purpose was so that you may not be conceited (lit., “wise in yourselves”). God’s sovereign plan to put Israel aside temporarily in order to show grace to Gentiles is no basis for conceit on the part of the Gentiles; it is designed to display further the glory of God.
God purposed that some from all nations should by faith receive the righteousness provided by grace. In order to achieve this goal Israel’s relationship as God’s Chosen People was rescinded for a time and Israel is now experiencing a hardening in part until the full number (plērōma, “fullness”) of the Gentiles has come in. There is a fullness for Israel (Rom_11:12) and a fullness for the Gentiles. God is now “taking from the Gentiles a people for Himself” (Act_15:14).
In Rom_11:25 are two specific facts about Israel’s hardening (cf. Rom_11:7-8): (a) it is partial, “in part” (because throughout this time “there is a remnant chosen by grace,” Rom_11:5), and (b) it is temporary (because it will end when God’s sovereignly chosen number of Gentiles has been saved).
“Hardening” is pōrōsis (“hardening, dulling”); it differs from the verb sklērynei (“hardens”) used of Pharaoh (Rom_9:18) and the noun sklērotēta (“stubbornness,” lit., “hardening,” Rom_2:5). The first noun (pōrōsis) refers to dullness, the second suggests stubbornness.
After “the fullness of the Gentiles” (Rom_11:25 1, KJV) the partial hardening of Israel will be removed and all Israel will be saved, that is, “delivered” (in the OT “saved” often means “delivered”) from the terrible Tribulation by the Messiah, the Deliverer. To confirm this, Paul quoted from Isa_59:20-21 and Isa_27:9. The statement, “All Israel will be saved” does not mean that every Jew living at Christ’s return will be regenerated. Many of them will not be saved, as seen by the fact that the judgment of Israel, to follow soon after the Lord’s return, will include the removal of Jewish rebels (Eze_20:34-38). Following this judgment God will then remove godlessness and sins from the nation as He establishes His New Covenant with regenerate Israel (cf. Jer_31:33-34).


Romans 11:16

Paul was convinced that Israel’s stumbling is temporary rather than permanent and that the nation will be restored as God’s people. With two illustrations Paul showed why he believed this. His first illustration was taken from God’s instructions to Israel to take “a cake from the first of [their] ground meal and present it as an offering” (Num_15:20) after they entered the land of Canaan and reaped their first wheat harvest. This offering was to be repeated each year at their harvests. The cake made from the first ground meal of the wheat harvest was sanctified or made holy by being offered to God. As Paul explained, If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits (lit., “If the firstfruits”) is holy, then the whole batch is holy (lit., “the lump is also”). Paul’s second illustration was that of a tree: If the root is holy, so are the branches.
In both illustrations the principle is the same: what is considered first contributes its character to what is related to it. With a tree, the root obviously comes first and contributes the nature of that type of tree to the branches that come later. With the cake presented to the Lord, the flour for the cake is taken from the ground meal, but that cake is formed and baked first and presented as a firstfruit. Since it is set apart to the Lord first, it sanctifies the whole harvest. The firstfruits and the root represent the patriarchs of Israel or Abraham personally, and the lump and the branches represent the people of Israel. As a result Israel is set apart (holy) to God, and her “stumbling” (rejection of Christ) must therefore be temporary.



The Bible Knowledge Commentary.

 

[agua.]

God only has one family - all are given of the same Holy Spirit. (Christ in Us) Who was Davids grandmother? Where did Abraham come from? What set them apart from the rest of the world at that time? God made a covenant with Abraham, and later confirmed His promise to Jacob. The law was introduced through Moses. God made a distinction between the righteous and unrighteous in ancient Israel and there were curses and blessings in that first Covenant. People weren't saved by birth as a Hebrew.

God made a new covenant introduced through His Christ. (Jesus -Christ the Lord) If the offspring of those early believers in Jesus remained in the faith they are more then likely called Christian in this day and age as Jesus is called Christ. But they found the forgiveness of sin in Jesus just as we all have. We are all grafted into the one true vine (Jesus) by the gardener (Father).

Randy

But they found the forgiveness of sin in Jesus just as we all have. We are all grafted into the one true vine (Jesus) by the gardener (Father).

Gday Randy can you show me the scriptures which connect the True Vine ( Jesus ) to the Good Olive Tree ?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The problem is that using the term Church to describe believers before the Cross is inaccurate and I think you're confusing covenants. The new covenant was cut with Jesus blood.

Jesus referred to the people of God as the church before he died on the cross.

"If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector." (Matthew 18:17 NASB)

Church means 'called out ones'.

 

[Deborah13]

Romans 11:22-24
Conversely for the people of Israel, if they do not persist (lit., “continue”) in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. At issue is not God’s ability but God’s decision. God sovereignly chose to put Israel aside corporately because of unbelief and to extend righteousness by faith to everyone. This demonstrates His decision to graft Gentiles into the spiritual stock of Abraham (cf. Rom_4:12, Rom_4:16-17; Gal_3:14).

I agree with this boldened part.

Obviously, therefore, if the unbelief which caused Israel’s rejection by God is removed, God is able and will graft the people of Israel (the natural branches) back into the spiritual stock to which they belong (their own olive tree). After all, as Paul wrote earlier, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved” (Rom_10:13).
The “olive tree” is not the church; it is the spiritual stock of Abraham. Believing Gentiles are included in that sphere of blessing so that in the Church Age both Jews and Gentiles are in Christ’s body (Eph_2:11-22; Eph_3:6). Yet someday Israel as a whole will turn to Christ (as Paul discussed in Rom_11:25-27). This passage does not teach that the national promises to Israel have been abrogated and are now being fulfilled by the church. This idea, taught by amillenarians, is foreign to Paul’s point, for he said Israel’s fall is temporary. While believing Gentiles share in the blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant (Gen_12:3) as Abraham’s spiritual children (Gal_3:8-9), they do not permanently replace Israel as the heirs of God’s promises (Gen_12:2-3; Gen_15:18-21; Gen_17:19-21; Gen_22:15-18).

I agree with some of what you have marked blue.
"The “olive tree” is not the church; it is the spiritual stock of Abraham. Believing Gentiles are included in that sphere of blessing so that in the Church Age both Jews and Gentiles are in Christ’s body."

The "olive tree" is the "spiritual stock of Abraham", spiritual Israel, the Israel of God. Gentile believers are grafted into this spiritual Israel, the Israel of God.
I don't believe in a Church Age, at least not like Walvoord did.

Romans 11:25-27
3. In Israel’s Salvation (Rom_11:25-32)
Israel’s corporate stumbling, which is temporary, not permanent, is called a mystery. God’s purpose was so that you may not be conceited (lit., “wise in yourselves”). God’s sovereign plan to put Israel aside temporarily in order to show grace to Gentiles is no basis for conceit on the part of the Gentiles; it is designed to display further the glory of God.
God purposed that some from all nations should by faith receive the righteousness provided by grace. In order to achieve this goal Israel’s relationship as God’s Chosen People was rescinded for a time and Israel is now experiencing a hardening in part until the full number (plērōma, “fullness”) of the Gentiles has come in. There is a fullness for Israel (Rom_11:12) and a fullness for the Gentiles. God is now “taking from the Gentiles a people for Himself” (Act_15:14).
In Rom_11:25 are two specific facts about Israel’s hardening (cf. Rom_11:7-8): (a) it is partial, “in part” (because throughout this time “there is a remnant chosen by grace,” Rom_11:5), and (b) it is temporary (because it will end when God’s sovereignly chosen number of Gentiles has been saved).
After “the fullness of the Gentiles” (Rom_11:25 1, KJV) the partial hardening of Israel will be removed and all Israel will be saved, that is, “delivered” (in the OT “saved” often means “delivered”) from the terrible Tribulation by the Messiah, the Deliverer. To confirm this, Paul quoted from Isa_59:20-21 and Isa_27:9. The statement, “All Israel will be saved” does not mean that every Jew living at Christ’s return will be regenerated. Many of them will not be saved, as seen by the fact that the judgment of Israel, to follow soon after the Lord’s return, will include the removal of Jewish rebels (Eze_20:34-38). Following this judgment God will then remove godlessness and sins from the nation as He establishes His New Covenant with regenerate Israel (cf. Jer_31:33-34).

Now this is all in ones view of eschatology.
Walvoord's eschatology says that God is going to punish and judge Israel a second time for the same offense, from what I can tell. If not what are they being judged and punished for, in this tribulation?

Jer 31:32 Not like the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day of My laying hold on their hand, To bring them out of the land of Egypt, In that they made void My covenant, And I ruled over them--an affirmation of Jehovah.
Jer 31:33 For this is the covenant that I make, With the house of Israel, after those days, An affirmation of Jehovah, I have given My law in their inward part, And on their heart I do write it, And I have been to them for God, And they are to me for a people.
Heb 8:9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, in the day of My taking them by their hand, to bring them out of the land of Egypt--because they did not remain in My covenant, and I did not regard them, saith the Lord, --
Heb 8:10 because this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, after those days, saith the Lord, giving My laws into their mind, and upon their hearts I will write them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me for a people;

Jeremiah gave a prophecy, the same one that Paul (?) quotes in Hebrews.
I only see one New Covenant. A covenant established by God with Abraham and his one Seed. A covenant that was manifested at the cross of our Lord.

I suppose we could call the body of believers before the cross synagogue and the body of the believers after the cross church.

Romans 11:16
The firstfruits and the root represent the patriarchs of Israel or Abraham personally, and the lump and the branches represent the people of Israel. As a result Israel is set apart (holy) to God, and her “stumbling” (rejection of Christ) must therefore be temporary. The Bible Knowledge Commentary.

This whole last part in blue I can agree with, as did Matt. Henry. With Gentile believers grafted in.

 

[agua.]

Jesus referred to the people of God as the church before he died on the cross.

"If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector." (Matthew 18:17 NASB)

Church means 'called out ones'.

Yeah thanks Jethro :/ The concept of the Church was probably known to the disciples as the Jewish assembly until it was revealed at Pentecost imo. The Gospel hadn't gone out to the Gentiles until after the Cross it seems .

Mat 10:5-6 KJV These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: (6) But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Mat 28:19-20 KJV Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

If Ephesians 2 is describing the Church it wasn't formed until after the Cross.

Eph 2:12-15 KJV That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: (13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. (14) For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; (15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;



Who are the ante-Cross "called out ones " ?

 

[agua.]

I agree with this boldened part.


I agree with some of what you have marked blue.
"The “olive tree” is not the church; it is the spiritual stock of Abraham. Believing Gentiles are included in that sphere of blessing so that in the Church Age both Jews and Gentiles are in Christ’s body."

The "olive tree" is the "spiritual stock of Abraham", spiritual Israel, the Israel of God. Gentile believers are grafted into this spiritual Israel, the Israel of God.
I don't believe in a Church Age, at least not like Walvoord did.

Spiritual Israel are the believing Jews who weren't cast off and blinded. Do you believe Ephesians 2 is describing the Church ie. is the Church the Body of Christ ?

Now this is all in ones view of eschatology.
Walvoord's eschatology says that God is going to punish and judge Israel a second time for the same offense, from what I can tell. If not what are they being judged and punished for, in this tribulation?

Jer 31:32 Not like the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day of My laying hold on their hand, To bring them out of the land of Egypt, In that they made void My covenant, And I ruled over them--an affirmation of Jehovah.
Jer 31:33 For this is the covenant that I make, With the house of Israel, after those days, An affirmation of Jehovah, I have given My law in their inward part, And on their heart I do write it, And I have been to them for God, And they are to me for a people.
Heb 8:9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, in the day of My taking them by their hand, to bring them out of the land of Egypt--because they did not remain in My covenant, and I did not regard them, saith the Lord, --
Heb 8:10 because this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, after those days, saith the Lord, giving My laws into their mind, and upon their hearts I will write them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me for a people;

I don't understand what you mean by punish Israel a second time ( 70 AD ? ). When Jesus returns he will cast out the unbelieving Jew as per Romans 11:26 and save the rest. Right now the unbelieving Jew is separated from the covenant but some will repent and return during the trib. The new covenant mentioned in Jer and Heb happens at this time when Jesus turns away ungodliness from Jacob ( removes the unbelieving Jew ). This isn't a second punishment but the culmination of the time of the Gentiles.

Jeremiah gave a prophecy, the same one that Paul (?) quotes in Hebrews.
I only see one New Covenant. A covenant established by God with Abraham and his one Seed. A covenant that was manifested at the cross of our Lord.

I suppose we could call the body of believers before the cross synagogue and the body of the believers after the cross church.

The Jer prophecy Paul quotes is specifically about Israel ( the houses of Israel and Judah ). I still don't see how you can apply this to Gentiles. Yes before the Cross I'm guessing Synagogue would be a good term.

This whole last part in blue I can agree with, as did Matt. Henry. With Gentile believers grafted in.

You agree that the natural branches are Israel now ?

"The firstfruits and the root represent the patriarchs of Israel or Abraham personally, and the lump and the branches represent the people of Israel. As a result Israel is set apart (holy) to God, and her “stumbling” (rejection of Christ) must therefore be temporary. "

This statement is describing the natural branches before the concept of the wild Gentiles is introduced. ie.

Rom 11:19-21 KJV Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. (20) Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: (21) For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

 

[Randy]

Gday Randy can you show me the scriptures which connect the True Vine ( Jesus ) to the Good Olive Tree ?

What Good old olive tree do you mean? What is your context? I didn't state that branches were broken off so that I can be grafted In. I think God loves. And God is Love and God loves the whole world. But God is the one who sets the terms and conditions of the New Covenant and how He chooses to forgive the sin of the people and God foretold a light to the gentiles and glory for His people Israel. In this day and age can one really draw a fine line between the Hebrews, Israelites, children of Abraham and the rest of the population of the world? I think not. If I practiced modern Judaism the world would call me a Jew. Not quite the same thing as Paul and the Apostles but the same Spirit is given to all. And we preach to the living not the dead.

Jesus stating He was the vine means we live by/in Him just as He lives by the living Father. We are the branches. Apart from Jesus one will wither and die. Jesus is our source of life and we never die. Such a message that Jesus preached applies to all peoples. Jesus uses truth however narrow that road may be. Those that listen and learn from the Father (the Spirit speaks from what He hears) go to the Son and Jesus (The resurrection and the life) will raise them up on the last day. Why? Because Jesus stated that is the Fathers Will. I believe God wants all people to choose life. Jesus sows the good seed and the evil one sows the weeds. God found fault with the people in those days but He offered the greatest Gift He could give His Son whom He loves. John 11:50 And Jesus showed the greatest love that He could give. He lated down His life for the sheep. The good Shepard. But God allows free will. I am freewill. I was steered to Jesus from birth and I found Him to be the Christ the Son of the living God. It is an advantage to have Christian parents. Indeed those that belong to Jesus can ask those that fall away from the faith and now claim Christ is just a man who died "How can one have the Spirit of Christ in them and not know Jesus lives?"

John 15:15
15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinegrower.

Individual access to God has never been denied to those who have a sincere faith. (seek and find, ask and receive, knock and the door will be opened) But it takes faith in Jesus to call on the Lord. Lets jump to the end of the age. Rev 11 is a powerful sign/testimony to the whole world. Yet many in the whole world will still reject that testimony and be taken in by the beasts deceptions/trickery. That will be the condition of the peoples hearts in those days. God didn't make or cause them to choose that path. They chose that way themselves. Also I believe history will show that in any religion when church and state are fused hypocrisy reigns. A persons occupation does not necessarily reflect a person of righteousness or unrighteousness. Its what ones does that states/suggests that condition. Cornelius was a Roman soldier who loved/worshipped and feared the one true God in a world with many false Gods. And God loved him.

The worshippers God seeks are those who worship in Spirit and in truth. And Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God and Lord of all except the One who gave Him that authority.



Randy

 

[agua.]

What Good old olive tree do you mean? What is your context? I didn't state that branches were broken off so that I can be grafted In. I think God loves. And God is Love and God loves the whole world. But God is the one who sets the terms and conditions of the New Covenant and how He chooses to forgive the sin of the people and God foretold a light to the gentiles and glory for His people Israel. In this day and age can one really draw a fine line between the Hebrews, Israelites, children of Abraham and the rest of the population of the world? I think not. If I practiced modern Judaism the world would call me a Jew. Not quite the same thing as Paul and the Apostles but the same Spirit is given to all. And we preach to the living not the dead.

Jesus stating He was the vine means we live by/in Him just as He lives by the living Father. We are the branches. Apart from Jesus one will wither and die. Jesus is our source of life and we never die. Such a message that Jesus preached applies to all peoples. Jesus uses truth however narrow that road may be. Those that listen and learn from the Father (the Spirit speaks from what He hears) go to the Son and Jesus (The resurrection and the life) will raise them up on the last day. Why? Because Jesus stated that is the Fathers Will. I believe God wants all people to choose life. Jesus sows the good seed and the evil one sows the weeds. God found fault with the people in those days but He offered the greatest Gift He could give His Son whom He loves. John 11:50 And Jesus showed the greatest love that He could give. He lated down His life for the sheep. The good Shepard. But God allows free will. I am freewill. I was steered to Jesus from birth and I found Him to be the Christ the Son of the living God. It is an advantage to have Christian parents. Indeed those that belong to Jesus can ask those that fall away from the faith and now claim Christ is just a man who died "How can one have the Spirit of Christ in them and not know Jesus lives?"

John 15:15
15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinegrower.

Individual access to God has never been denied to those who have a sincere faith. (seek and find, ask and receive, knock and the door will be opened) But it takes faith in Jesus to call on the Lord. Lets jump to the end of the age. Rev 11 is a powerful sign/testimony to the whole world. Yet many in the whole world will still reject that testimony and be taken in by the beasts deceptions/trickery. That will be the condition of the peoples hearts in those days. God didn't make or cause them to choose that path. They chose that way themselves. Also I believe history will show that in any religion when church and state are fused hypocrisy reigns. A persons occupation does not necessarily reflect a person of righteousness or unrighteousness. Its what ones does that states/suggests that condition. Cornelius was a Roman soldier who loved/worshipped and feared the one true God in a world with many false Gods. And God loved him.

The worshippers God seeks are those who worship in Spirit and in truth. And Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God and Lord of all except the One who gave Him that authority.



Randy

What Good old olive tree do you mean? What is your context? I didn't state that branches were broken off so that I can be grafted In.

Randy I assumed since you used the term "grafted in" that you were comparing the True Vine ( Jesus ) to the Good Olive Tree from Romans 11 and I was interested in the way you connected the 2. It seems you weren't comparing the 2 my bad.

God bless.

 

[Deborah13]

I believe the ones you mention are branches on the good Olive Tree that were not cutoff or grafted back in when they believed. Those righteous by faith/grace before and after the cross.
The natural nation of Israel, consists of 12 tribes through Jacob by his sons.
But Paul says that all of those in Christ, the one Seed, are the seed of Abraham. So some of the branches that remain on this Olive Tree are both natural branches are of the 12 tribes and Abraham, while others, Gentiles, are just branches grafted into Abraham's seed by adoption.

If they are grafted in they are not natural.

What do you think the good Olive Tree is ?

Post # 83

I wasn't suggesting that Gentiles are natural branches, just grafted in to the good Tree. Post #94 I said,
"So some of the branches that remain on this Olive Tree are both natural branches are of the 12 tribes and Abraham, (Issac, Jacob, all natural Israel)
( while others, Gentiles, are just branches grafted into Abraham's seed by adoption.")
I should have said to be more clear, "while others, Gentiles, are just wild branches grafted into Abraham's seed by adoption, through Christ."
Does that make more sense?

You agree that the natural branches are Israel now ?

See Post # 74
I said,
"I believe the ones you mention are branches on the good Olive Tree that were not cutoff or grafted back in when they believed"
I can understand how you misunderstood part of this statement as I wrote it poorly? The word 'or' making it sound like I was saying the if they were grafted back in they were not natural. That is not what I meant at all.
The thing this proselytes became members of the nation and some members of the nation left the nation becoming mixed with Gentile nations, ie. Samaritans.
So it is not by genetics at all who is natural but by national affiliation. Your corp. Israel.

You didn't believe me in post 94? Why not?

 

[jasonc]

agua, please find a messianic jewish website from isreal. many a jews are coming to Christ.

 

[agua.]

agua, please find a messianic jewish website from isreal. many a jews are coming to Christ.

Yes and these are the remnant according to grace the same as all the Jewish disciples were eg. Paul, Peter, John, Andrew etc

 

[jasonc]

Yes and these are the remnant according to grace the same as all the Jewish disciples were eg. Paul, Peter, John, Andrew etc

Hebrews only account for less 6% of the population. so they wont be large in comparsion to gentiles.

even if isreal is a nation of saved jews. its wont be larger then the population of the us or even the large states of ny, ca, tx, fl, and others. that is the point. break that down to 1/3 as 2/3 die in that doctrine. its even less!

 

[agua.]

If they are grafted in they are not natural.

The thing this proselytes became members of the nation and some members of the nation left the nation becoming mixed with Gentile nations, ie. Samaritans.
So it is not by genetics at all who is natural but by national affiliation. Your corp. Israel.

Ok ok I need to get this clear in my head if that's ok;

1. The natural branches are Israel ( including proselytes )
2. All Jews are natural branches ( including the unbelieving )
3. A Gentile who has not joined Israel ( proselyte ) is not a natural Branch.

Was Paul a natural branch ? This is what seem to be confusing me here. I have the impression that you think any person who turns to Jesus today becomes a natural branch.

You didn't believe me in post 94? Why not?

Maybe the above questions will clear this up.

 

[Deborah13]

Spiritual Israel are the believing Jews who weren't cast off and blinded. Do you believe Ephesians 2 is describing the Church ie. is the Church the Body of Christ ?

I see that Paul is talking to some of the members of the "commonwealth of Israel."

Eph 2:11 Wherefore, remember, that ye were once the nations in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision, (of the Gentile nations, Not proselytes) by that called Circumcision (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, 12 tribes, proselytes, foreign slaves) in the flesh made by hands,

Eph 2:12 that ye were at that time apart from Christ, having been alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope, and without God, in the world;
Eph 2:13 and now, in Christ Jesus, ye being once afar off became nigh in the blood of the Christ,

So my question to you would be what is the "commonwealth of Israel?"
What are the covenants of the promise?


foreign slaves, circumcised in order to eat the Passover Feast.
Exo 12:43 And Jehovah saith unto Moses and Aaron, `This is a statute of the passover; Any son of a stranger doth not eat of it;
Exo 12:44 and any man's servant, the purchase of money, when thou hast circumcised him--then he doth eat of it;
Exo 12:45 a settler or hired servant doth not eat of it;

I think maybe taking one question at a time would be helpful.

But I will address Jere. and Hebrews when we can get an understanding of the basics. We will never be able to see the other one's side if we are talking about two different things, two different groups of people.

 

[jasonc]

Ok ok I need to get this clear in my head if that's ok;

1. The natural branches are Israel ( including proselytes )
2. All Jews are natural branches ( including the unbelieving )
3. A Gentile who has not joined Israel ( proselyte ) is not a natural Branch.

Was Paul a natural branch ? This is what seem to be confusing me here. I have the impression that you think any person who turns to Jesus today becomes a natural branch.



Maybe the above questions will clear this up.

you forget adopted sons and daughters of jews raised as jew but never were by blood. more common then you think. I know of a few.