Bible Study Cain and Abel

[stovebolts]

This story has been stuck in my head all week, so I'd like to share my thoughts and I'd like to hear yours.
In Genesis 4, we are introduced to both Cain and Able.
I pulled this from my Ramban commentary.
Cain, from the word Kanah, "Acquisition" because "I have gotten a man from the LORD." verse 1.
Able means "Vanity", because mans acquisition is like vanity. (But she did not wish to say so explicitly. Therefore, no reason is written for the name of the second son.)

Now to my thoughts...
We see that Cain is a farmer and Able is a Shepherd. Farmers work the land and because they work the land, they set boundaries and claim ownership. Farmers have a good since of boundary. But a shepherd, he has no sense of boundary. Instead, he goes where the pasture is green and goes wherever he can feed his sheep.
So what happens when a person with no boundaries crosses onto a piece of land that another claims as his own? Who's land is it? So it's not to far of a reach to see a dispute between these brothers. And how does Cain handle this dispute? Is is possible this is the reason Cain's offering isn't acceptable? Is it possible that Cain is ridged and unmovable?

Later, Cain takes his brother out to the field and kills him. And this is what I've been thinking on all week.
The Lord said, What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground.

First, the question has been asked, What have you done? Do we even understand the wrongs we commit? Or have our hearts been hardened?
Listen! Can we even hear other people? Do we even care? Or are we so consumed with our own lives and needs to listen!
Your brothers blood cries out to me from the ground.
Do we take the time to listen and hear the cries of others? Or have we hardened our hearts? This cry isn't a cry of sorrow, but it's a cry for justice. It's a cry that says, "What just happened! Did anyone see that? Who's going to make this right!"

I purposely stay away from End times theology, but this reminded me of the Elders who cry out from under the throne. I am also reminded that God will wipe away every tear.

Cain goes on to build his own city, and we see that things go terribly awry. Adam and Eve have another son Seth who's line goes to Noah and the earth is cleansed. The decedents of Cain were destroyed and Noah and his family were left behind to repopulate the earth.

 

[Jesse]

What is the significance of Cain being the actual first born human being on earth and he also being the first murderer? OT I know - sorry.

Submission to God and waiting for God's justice, possibly the two most difficult acts believers are commanded to do, and both Cain failed (many of us do). Maybe the most difficult is our submission to God and when this isn't happening, all else goes the way of Cain?

 

[stovebolts]

What is the significance of Cain being the actual first born human being on earth and he also being the first murderer? OT I know - sorry.

Submission to God and waiting for God's justice, possibly the two most difficult acts believers are commanded to do, and both Cain failed (many of us do). Maybe the most difficult is our submission to God and when this isn't happening, all else goes the way of Cain?

I've been pondering that same question.
God created Adam and out of Adam Eve was formed. Thus, Cain was the fist born. and things went horribly wrong. Cain started the first city, and it went horribly wrong.

Jesus on the on the other hand was the first born over all creation (1 Cor 15). But I think I'll tuck that into my back pocket and ponder if that really belongs here. Please, I'm only thinking out loud here. So don't take what I have to say as gospel.

After the flood, we see all the people coming together and building a tower. God disperses them by giving them all different languages. It's almost like whenever man goes to build a city, it goes horribly wrong. We see this clearly in Egypt who is the first super power. The first "Empire". And what do Empires do? They oppress. Babylon was made with bricks, and Egypt is being made with bricks.

David established an Empire, and handed that over to Solomon who for the first time in world history established world peace. But he did it through corruption and evil. It wasn't the empire God had intended. Solomon built the temple with slave labor, was an arms dealer and offered his children up for sacrifice to foreign gods.

This is what came out of the way of Cain. And Able, his brother is for vain. We can't do it from or by ourselves... we need a savior. Solomon writes that it's all vanity... every bit of it. Scripture says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. And what is God's glory? When we do as the Father wills.

Jesus was the second Adam. That last born. Seth was the last born, and through him Noah was saved. Jesus was the second "Son of David". Isiah wrote about Jesus that there would be no violence in him. (chapter 53). Peter writes that we are a kingdom of priests, which means we represent God. Paul calls us the Body of Christ, which means we are God's workmanship.

Sorry for the ramble lol. My mind is kinda all over the place on this.

 

[reba]

From the first brothers we see the failings of the older one...

 

[stovebolts]

From the first brothers we see the failings of the older one...

What do you mean Reba? Wouldn't the first brothers be the oldest brothers? Sorry... I'm not tracking.

 

[reba]

Let me try this way ... it wasn't Benjamin that sold Joseph it was the older brothers
Who was older Esau or Jacob ? The elder sold his birthright



I will reword it... Cain and Able were the first born people.. and from the very start we see the older of the 2 messing up... i see a theme running through the scriptures...

 

[stovebolts]

Judah sold Joseph (and thus prevented the death of Joseph), but Joseph was the eldest of Rachel. Benjamin was the youngest from both Rachel and Jacob.
Esau was the eldest, and yes, he sold his birthright to Jacob. Esau established the edomites, who turned against Judah (Obediah wrote about Edom, and Paul echo's in Roman's, "Esau I hated, Jacob I loved).

Hmmm... the older will serve the younger. Interesting.
Jesus was the second Adam, yet he was the first born. Kinda like Joseph.. in a weird sort of way.
Am I thinking too hard lol! Help!

 

[stovebolts]

I will reword it... Cain and Able were the first born people.. and from the very start we see the older of the 2 messing up... i see a theme running through the scriptures...

Ahhhh! Got it! I can see that now too! Wow! You know, the story in the bible always repeats itself... always. Only the details change.

 

[reba]

Sense when do moms count?

 

[stovebolts]

Sense when do moms count?

Ha!
Mom's always count! Scripture has a special place for mom's Our very souls derive from our mothers

Trivia: Did you ever wonder why scripture list's Tubal Cain's sister? (Naamah)

Oh wait! Squirrel! (or nut) lol

 

[Jesse]

Sense when do moms count?

Are you saying that maybe the first born is the experimental child? The mother really doesn't know how to mother yet and she is just learning?

That might make sense, idk.

 

[Jesse]

Judah sold Joseph (and thus prevented the death of Joseph), but Joseph was the eldest of Rachel. Benjamin was the youngest from both Rachel and Jacob.
Esau was the eldest, and yes, he sold his birthright to Jacob. Esau established the edomites, who turned against Judah (Obediah wrote about Edom, and Paul echo's in Roman's, "Esau I hated, Jacob I loved).

Hmmm... the older will serve the younger. Interesting.
Jesus was the second Adam, yet he was the first born. Kinda like Joseph.. in a weird sort of way.
Am I thinking too hard lol! Help!

The last will be first...

 

[Jesse]

I've been pondering that same question.
God created Adam and out of Adam Eve was formed. Thus, Cain was the fist born. and things went horribly wrong. Cain started the first city, and it went horribly wrong.

Jesus on the on the other hand was the first born over all creation (1 Cor 15). But I think I'll tuck that into my back pocket and ponder if that really belongs here. Please, I'm only thinking out loud here. So don't take what I have to say as gospel.

After the flood, we see all the people coming together and building a tower. God disperses them by giving them all different languages. It's almost like whenever man goes to build a city, it goes horribly wrong. We see this clearly in Egypt who is the first super power. The first "Empire". And what do Empires do? They oppress. Babylon was made with bricks, and Egypt is being made with bricks.

David established an Empire, and handed that over to Solomon who for the first time in world history established world peace. But he did it through corruption and evil. It wasn't the empire God had intended. Solomon built the temple with slave labor, was an arms dealer and offered his children up for sacrifice to foreign gods.

This is what came out of the way of Cain. And Able, his brother is for vain. We can't do it from or by ourselves... we need a savior. Solomon writes that it's all vanity... every bit of it. Scripture says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. And what is God's glory? When we do as the Father wills.

Jesus was the second Adam. That last born. Seth was the last born, and through him Noah was saved. Jesus was the second "Son of David". Isiah wrote about Jesus that there would be no violence in him. (chapter 53). Peter writes that we are a kingdom of priests, which means we represent God. Paul calls us the Body of Christ, which means we are God's workmanship.

Sorry for the ramble lol. My mind is kinda all over the place on this.

I realize you're rambling, but as you ramble, my mind does, too. haha

I'm not sure about comparing Jesus and Cain because the whole essence of Adam was he was the first man and failed, while Jesus was the 2nd Adam and succeeded. Although, comparing Adam, Cain, older brothers of Joseph, and Esau would make more sense as Reba has pointed out.

It's interesting that God's glory would be doing our Father's Will, will have to think on this. The only problem I have is, His glory would then be determined by our actions and I have always thought God would bring glory to Himself, regardless of us.

Lots to ponder.

 

[stovebolts]

I see what you mean by comparing Jesus and Cain and I agree, but I think there is another dimension just under the surface.
Jesus refers to himself as:
1. Son of Man
2. Son of David
3. Son of God

As the Son of God, Jesus is the only Begotten (John 3:16) which juxtaposes with Adam.
As the Son of David, he will set up an everlasting kingdom here on earth. Unlike the first son of David (Solomon), this (Jesus) Son of David will use his resources purely and properly.
As the son of Man, .... That's kinda what I was playing with. ;-)

 

[stovebolts]

It's interesting that God's glory would be doing our Father's Will, will have to think on this. The only problem I have is, His glory would then be determined by our actions and I have always thought God would bring glory to Himself, regardless of us.

Lots to ponder.

Yeah, it is a lot to ponder. When I first pondered that idea, I started with the idea in the prayer Jesus models for us.
Our Father, who are in heaven, hollowed be your name.
Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth, as it is in heaven.

This is the idea behind the Mitzvot Please, don't think I'm preaching works based salvation. I'm simply thinking about Ephesians 2:10 For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

We are a kingdom of priests, and such we should reflect the Glory of the Lord. When we fail to reflect His glory, God is given a bad name and His will is not being carried out.
But also, we are called the Body of Christ. What? Christ needs a body? What a concept that is huh? Paul even talks about a body of sin. So we know that this "Body" is more than ourselves, yet we consist within it and are integral to it's function.

Side note: I just came in from shooting. I can't hear out of my right ear... Shoulda wore ear protection.

 

[stovebolts]

Are you saying that maybe the first born is the experimental child? The mother really doesn't know how to mother yet and she is just learning?

That might make sense, idk.

Or maybe she learned it was all vanity lol!

On a serious side, my kid rebelled pretty hard this summer. It's been a tough year for our family. Honestly, a part of me died inside. We're recovering, but we're still working at it. I'm reminded of God's promise to Adam. "And you will surely die". I lost my daughter last January to heroin. I saw it coming and tried to warn her. A part of me died watching her kill herself. Did a part of Eve die when she saw Cain going the wrong way? What about the pain and death she felt when her son Able was killed. But he wasn't just murdered, he was murdered by her first son Cain.
Think for a moment what that would be like. You have two sons, whom you love and in a way, they both die before your eyes... and a part of her had to have died. All her hopes, all her dreams. Gone... dead.
What then did she learn and how much more did Seth mean to her? Is it a wonder then that after Seth it is said, "And they returned to the Lord". Sometimes, something has to die, before it can be born again.

 

[Jesse]

Yeah, it is a lot to ponder. When I first pondered that idea, I started with the idea in the prayer Jesus models for us.
Our Father, who are in heaven, hollowed be your name.
Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth, as it is in heaven.

This is the idea behind the Mitzvot Please, don't think I'm preaching works based salvation. I'm simply thinking about Ephesians 2:10 For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

We are a kingdom of priests, and such we should reflect the Glory of the Lord. When we fail to reflect His glory, God is given a bad name and His will is not being carried out.
But also, we are called the Body of Christ. What? Christ needs a body? What a concept that is huh? Paul even talks about a body of sin. So we know that this "Body" is more than ourselves, yet we consist within it and are integral to it's function.

Side note: I just came in from shooting. I can't hear out of my right ear... Shoulda wore ear protection.

It's a difficult concept to wrap my mind around that just because we don't do something, then God's will has failed to be completed. I agree, that we participate with Him to bring in His Kingdom and we have good works to do, yet if we fail to do those works, He will find someone else to do them.

Is His will unable to be completed because of us? I have always thought that His Will WILL be done, no matter what.

 

[stovebolts]

It's a difficult concept to wrap my mind around that just because we don't do something, then God's will has failed to be completed. I agree, that we participate with Him to bring in His Kingdom and we have good works to do, yet if we fail to do those works, He will find someone else to do them.

Is His will unable to be completed because of us? I have always thought that His Will WILL be done, no matter what.

I understand.
Is it possible that where one part of the body is unable to complete a task, that another part of the body is capable of completing that task?

It is Gods will that all men should be saved...

 

[Jesse]

Or maybe she learned it was all vanity lol!

On a serious side, my kid rebelled pretty hard this summer. It's been a tough year for our family. Honestly, a part of me died inside. We're recovering, but we're still working at it. I'm reminded of God's promise to Adam. "And you will surely die". I lost my daughter last January to heroin. I saw it coming and tried to warn her. A part of me died watching her kill herself. Did a part of Eve die when she saw Cain going the wrong way? What about the pain and death she felt when her son Able was killed. But he wasn't just murdered, he was murdered by her first son Cain.
Think for a moment what that would be like. You have two sons, whom you love and in a way, they both die before your eyes... and a part of her had to have died. All her hopes, all her dreams. Gone... dead.
What then did she learn and how much more did Seth mean to her? Is it a wonder then that after Seth it is said, "And they returned to the Lord". Sometimes, something has to die, before it can be born again.

I am very sorry to hear about your daughter, I won't even pretend to know what you went through, but it is heartbreaking to hear of family tragedy like this, especially to something like heroine. Have you ever heard of the saying going around about today's teens, it says something about how we taught the inner city kids about heroine, but we forgot to tell the suburban kids about it? Suburban kids smoke weed, but the hidden drugs are meth and heroine.

It's a painful life we live, some more painful than others.

I see what you mean though, each trial we go through something has to die, it has to die so life can come.

 

[stovebolts]

Thank you. God has been doing things inside me this past year. The death of my daughter is what got me thinking of Cain and Able. Why? Because there are so many people hurting, and very few listening. Everyone thinks addiction is an inner city issue. You said it, and your right. It's a surburbian issue with tons of stigma... Nobody wants to listen to the cries.... Only point fingers and blame.