Bible Study Cain and Abel

[Jesse]

Thank you. God has been doing things inside me this past year. The death of my daughter is what got me thinking of Cain and Able. Why? Because there are so many people hurting, and very few listening. Everyone thinks addiction is an inner city issue. You said it, and your right. It's a surburbian issue with tons of stigma... Nobody wants to listen to the cries.... Only point fingers and blame.

I agree, it is now an epidemic of suburbanites, I lived in a wealthy neighborhood, my high school is a blue ribbon school. People from all over the area go to it for the reputation of academics, they have horrible sport teams, but great academics. Most smoke weed, many use meth heroine. Parents don't know the signs to look for, they don't believe their kids would be doing this and most are doing it in the next room while their parents are watching TV in the other. One of my very good friends started using heroine, his family was active in church, they were a family that did everything together, including prayer and worship, Bible studies, youth group, family camp. Within a year, he had been arrested 3x's and had to go to a juvenile school.

It's like a disease, you never know whose going to catch it, it's not picky who it will "catch" either. It seems until suburbanites wake up, the problem will escalate.

I can see why you would be pondering Cain and Able. I listened to this sermon every morning for about 2 weeks on the story of Joseph, it made me aware of how painful it must have been for Jacob to think he had lost Joseph forever and the again the thought of losing Benjamin. The Pastor made that come alive for me.

 

[stovebolts]

I like you. Wish you lived near.
Your ahead of your time with a very healthy outlook on the things around you.

I am a board member for families against narcotics and I've taken that into church youth groups because several recovering addicts are willing to talk to the teens about addiction. Real people with real stories...

The format is.
1. Where I came from.
2. Where I'm at.
3. Where I'm going.

The teens really pay attention to them, and it helps keep them in recovery. Its almost therapeutic for them.

 

[Jesse]

I like you. Wish you lived near.
Your ahead of your time with a very healthy outlook on the things around you.

I am a board member for families against narcotics and I've taken that into church youth groups because several recovering addicts are willing to talk to the teens about addiction. Real people with real stories...

The format is.
1. Where I came from.
2. Where I'm at.
3. Where I'm going.

The teens really pay attention to them, and it helps keep them in recovery. Its almost therapeutic for them.

Ha, well, I like you, too.

I think it's ironic that I would be discussing this with you, you a father who laments over a lost child, and my own father, who also lost a child (me) couldn't care less to his loss.

I think it's why the story of Joseph made me aware that my experience is not normal, and there are fathers who would lament, and then this discussion with you.

Were you a board member of this group before your daughter became an addict?

I have also heard that a person can not help another, unless they have traveled the same road. Maybe that is not true, idk.

It's very difficult for a teenager to fight peer pressure, trust me, the strength in it is overpowering. Drugs are sometimes the only connection some kids have to others. Sad.

 

[smaller]

SB, I'm so sorry for your temporary loss. I almost lost my only grandchild, a grandson, not even 2 years old yet, 3 weeks ago. To see him on life support....I could barely stand it, and thought I might die myself from the grief.

It was personally horrifying. It rips the religious guts right out of us.

Cain and Abel, were both sons of God, just as their father Adam was. One obviously went badly astray astray as a slave of sin. We sometimes forget that Abel was not exempt from being a sinner either. And that all is a deep study in itself. One that will actually bring comfort as it is a spiritual picture of each of us in the carnal fleshly sense on our way to greener pastures as the final spiritual man.

There was a first Adam and a last Adam. The first one was bound for failure in favor of the second. So it is with every elder/flesh man and their younger inner spiritual final man,

Jesus Christ our Lord. In Him we have our hope and comfort. And I would extend that to and yours, knowing the suffering of this wicked world as it is, that we are all presently immersed in.

 

[stovebolts]

God pus the people in our lives at the right time. I honestly believe that.

I'm sorry to hear about your Dad. I can relate. It has deeply scared two of my brothers. They will never get what they desparetly need from him. I became indifferent... But it leaves scares. BTW, I'm 48.

No, I wasn't a board memberer then.

Grrr, I'm on my phone and its driving me nuts. Besides, I'm in the theatre with my son and his friends. Gonna watch the Hobit.

I'll catch ya later.

 

[Jesse]

God pus the people in our lives at the right time. I honestly believe that.

I'm sorry to hear about your Dad. I can relate. It has deeply scared two of my brothers. They will never get what they desparetly need from him. I became indifferent... But it leaves scares. BTW, I'm 48.

No, I wasn't a board memberer then.

Grrr, I'm on my phone and its driving me nuts. Besides, I'm in the theatre with my son and his friends. Gonna watch the Hobit.

I'll catch ya later.

Thanks. He was really abusive, my brother was, too. I ended up in the hospital because of my dad's abuse, internal bleeding from hits to the stomach, surgery for spleen. I left before either one of them could send me to the hospital and me not make it next time, if you know what I mean.

It could have been sort of like Cain and Abel. He is the older, too. It seems a little like Joseph, too, because my brother betrayed me.

 

[jasonc]

This story has been stuck in my head all week, so I'd like to share my thoughts and I'd like to hear yours.
In Genesis 4, we are introduced to both Cain and Able.
I pulled this from my Ramban commentary.
Cain, from the word Kanah, "Acquisition" because "I have gotten a man from the LORD." verse 1.
Able means "Vanity", because mans acquisition is like vanity. (But she did not wish to say so explicitly. Therefore, no reason is written for the name of the second son.)

Now to my thoughts...
We see that Cain is a farmer and Able is a Shepherd. Farmers work the land and because they work the land, they set boundaries and claim ownership. Farmers have a good since of boundary. But a shepherd, he has no sense of boundary. Instead, he goes where the pasture is green and goes wherever he can feed his sheep.
So what happens when a person with no boundaries crosses onto a piece of land that another claims as his own? Who's land is it? So it's not to far of a reach to see a dispute between these brothers. And how does Cain handle this dispute? Is is possible this is the reason Cain's offering isn't acceptable? Is it possible that Cain is ridged and unmovable?

Later, Cain takes his brother out to the field and kills him. And this is what I've been thinking on all week.
The Lord said, What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground.

First, the question has been asked, What have you done? Do we even understand the wrongs we commit? Or have our hearts been hardened?
Listen! Can we even hear other people? Do we even care? Or are we so consumed with our own lives and needs to listen!
Your brothers blood cries out to me from the ground.
Do we take the time to listen and hear the cries of others? Or have we hardened our hearts? This cry isn't a cry of sorrow, but it's a cry for justice. It's a cry that says, "What just happened! Did anyone see that? Who's going to make this right!"

I purposely stay away from End times theology, but this reminded me of the Elders who cry out from under the throne. I am also reminded that God will wipe away every tear.

Cain goes on to build his own city, and we see that things go terribly awry. Adam and Eve have another son Seth who's line goes to Noah and the earth is cleansed. The decedents of Cain were destroyed and Noah and his family were left behind to repopulate the earth.

saints that are beheaded cry out unto the Lord how long will thou not avenge us oh Lord.

never saw that connection.

 

[Malachi]

This story has been stuck in my head all week, so I'd like to share my thoughts and I'd like to hear yours.

Two questions come to mind:
1. Why was Cain's offering rejected but Abel's offering accepted?
2. Why did Cain murder Abel and what was his punishment?

The answer to to first question is in Jude 1:10,11 "But they speak evl of those things which they know not: BUT WHAT THEY KNOW NATURALLY, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. Woe unto them! FOR THEY HAVE GONE IN THE WAY OF CAIN..."

The Bible reveals that there are three kinds of people: (1) the natural man whose spirit is dead, (2) the "carnal" man whose spirit is alive but who is governed by "the flesh", and (3) the "spiritual" man who is governed by the Holy Spirit, and is therefore a man of faith.

Cain was a "natural" man (as shown above) who either could not, or would not, see the value that God places on the shed blood of sacrificial animals (which speak of Christ). Therefore he offered what was unacceptable to God -- "the fruit of the ground" (Gen 4:3).

Abel, on the other hand was a man of faith, therefore he offered what faith requires -- "the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof" (Gen 4:4) -- therefore trust in the shed blood of the Lamb of God. Thus we read in Heb 11:4 "BY FAITH ABel offered unto God A MORE EXCELLENT SACRIFICE than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh".

It is obvious from the text that as a result Cain was "very wroth" (extremely angry) and "his countenance fell" (extremely humiliated). Bitter anger led to murderous thoughts within, and finally a heinous murder (Gen 4:8). Therefore his punishment was that he was accursed, his land was accursed, and he was rendered a fugitive and a vagabond. His life was spared because he received "the mark of Cain", but "he went out from the presence of the Lord" (Gen 4:16) and is now awaiting eternal Hell.

Subsequently, under the Noahic Covenant murder would become a capital crime punishable by death (Gen 9:5,6), and so it would remain through Bible times and even to this day in the majority of countries. Abolition of capital punishment (the death penalty) for murder violates God's command and His justice.

 

[jasonc]

Let me try this way ... it wasn't Benjamin that sold Joseph it was the older brothers
Who was older Esau or Jacob ? The elder sold his birthright



I will reword it... Cain and Able were the first born people.. and from the very start we see the older of the 2 messing up... i see a theme running through the scriptures...

hmmmmmm. StoveBolts that is something you sent me on fb. I don't know if have that as a hyperlink on my favorites. so can you post that here. its about the houses of joseph and Judah.

 

[The Poly Grip Kid]

This threa Is really good it has given me a lot of insight and I am only /half way through the first page sorry but I have nothing to expound on other than to say thanks to the posters for the enlightenment

 

[Jesse]

Two questions come to mind:
1. Why was Cain's offering rejected but Abel's offering accepted?
2. Why did Cain murder Abel and what was his punishment?

The answer to to first question is in Jude 1:10,11 "But they speak evl of those things which they know not: BUT WHAT THEY KNOW NATURALLY, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. Woe unto them! FOR THEY HAVE GONE IN THE WAY OF CAIN..."

The Bible reveals that there are three kinds of people: (1) the natural man whose spirit is dead, (2) the "carnal" man whose spirit is alive but who is governed by "the flesh", and (3) the "spiritual" man who is governed by the Holy Spirit, and is therefore a man of faith.

Cain was a "natural" man (as shown above) who either could not, or would not, see the value that God places on the shed blood of sacrificial animals (which speak of Christ). Therefore he offered what was unacceptable to God -- "the fruit of the ground" (Gen 4:3).

Abel, on the other hand was a man of faith, therefore he offered what faith requires -- "the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof" (Gen 4:4) -- therefore trust in the shed blood of the Lamb of God. Thus we read in Heb 11:4 "BY FAITH ABel offered unto God A MORE EXCELLENT SACRIFICE than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh".

It is obvious from the text that as a result Cain was "very wroth" (extremely angry) and "his countenance fell" (extremely humiliated). Bitter anger led to murderous thoughts within, and finally a heinous murder (Gen 4:8). Therefore his punishment was that he was accursed, his land was accursed, and he was rendered a fugitive and a vagabond. His life was spared because he received "the mark of Cain", but "he went out from the presence of the Lord" (Gen 4:16) and is now awaiting eternal Hell.

Subsequently, under the Noahic Covenant murder would become a capital crime punishable by death (Gen 9:5,6), and so it would remain through Bible times and even to this day in the majority of countries. Abolition of capital punishment (the death penalty) for murder violates God's command and His justice.

I was going to ask this earlier and this post reminded me of my question:

I realize the answer is probably grace, but is there more to it? Why did God mark Cain and whoever shall harm him would be punished 7x more.

Why such an extreme punishment for anyone who would harm a person who had murdered his brother?

Thanks.

 

[Malachi]

Why such an extreme punishment for anyone who would harm a person who had murdered his brother?

God was establishing a principle of criminal law. He wanted men to make a distinction between justice, vengeance, and vigilantism.

God had already judged Cain's crime severely, therefore there would be no "double-jeopardy". Anyone who now hunted down Cain would be a vigilante (or if a friend of Abel, then vengeance) and subject to even severer punishment (the death penalty). "Vengeance is mine, saith the LORD" (Deut 32:35; Rom 12:19).

God wanted to establish "due process", and later on crimes would need to be confirmed by at least two or three witnesses in order to pass a sentence. We still have these principles of justice in our courts of law.

 

[Jesse]

God was establishing a principle of criminal law. He wanted men to make a distinction between justice, vengeance, and vigilantism.

God had already judged Cain's crime severely, therefore there would be no "double-jeopardy". Anyone who now hunted down Cain would be a vigilante (or if a friend of Abel, then vengeance) and subject to even severer punishment (the death penalty). God wanted to establish "due process", and later on crimes would need to be confirmed by at least two or three witnesses in order to pass a sentence. We still have these principles of justice in our courts of law.

The mark was part of the punishment?

The reason I ask is because I've always viewed the mark as a warning to others, but people must have treated him differently, too.

 

[Willie T]

Now.......... if only we could remember that today when we decide to do God's job for him.

 

[Jesse]

Now.......... if only we could remember that today when we decide to do God's job for him.

Ha It is easier said than done sometimes.

 

[Willie T]

Ha It is easier said than done sometimes.

Or, maybe it (judging) is easier done than remembering we are not God, and don't get to sit in His seat.

 

[Jesse]

Or, maybe it's easier done than remembered.

Sort of like old habits die hard.

Then there is the whole issue of forgiveness....that's a difficult part, too.

 

[Willie T]

Yeah, not many of us are too good on that forgiving stuff.

 

[Jesse]

Yeah, not many of us are too good on that forgiving stuff.

It blows me away how Joseph forgave his brothers and treated them like he did when they came for food. I think he tested them at first to see if they had changed, by placing their money back into their sacks and making them bring Benjamin. Once he realized they really had matured, he reveals himself. He's a good example of forgiveness.

I wonder if Adam and Eve were ever able to forgive Cain?!?

 

[Eugene]

Symbolism to me with Cain being born first would suggest the first man Adam dying for sin spiritually without blood applied. Abel and Cain must have been told of the acceptable sacrifice since the younger offered it.

Now I have heard it said as to one’s thoughts that the offerings of Cain possibly represented the works of his own hands, whereas Able gave the acceptable sacrifice in type of a Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Now Adam and Eve had that same covering made by God for them as He brought it to them in the garden.

Concerning types or ensamples, our first condition is in sin, the law enters and we die due to it being a ministration of death, and Seth the new man is the result.