Bible Study Cain and Abel

[jasonc]

since jeff, has brought in the jewish thought on lights and darkness. that is the yud. but I want to tie in the yechida to that. its what all men have and all are given some of awareness of God. we decide to neglect it or find out if God is real and from their repent. notice the statements by jeff on what we do that makes it evil or fail to do and see what I have made a connection to. the yechida is that part of our soul that is from God and returns to him at death.

 

[Jesse]

Jesse,
Jewish belief's are as broad as the belief's held within Christianity. To the fellow Jew whom told you the above, there is something to take to heart.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
We ought to be concerned with now. Now is the only time we have to do something. Now has no beginning, and it has no end. it just is. The Kingdom of God is't a destination, nor is hell. Both are a state of being.
Luke 17:20-21 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Read Matthews account of the Gospel for a full account of what the Kingdom of Heaven is like.

Lets lay some basic groundwork. Sin isn't always what you did, it's what you failed to do. See Ephesians 4 as an example. When one lies, it's a sin is because they should have told the truth. Thus, repentance doesn't happen when one stops telling lies. Repentance starts happening when one tells the truth. Same with stealing food. Instead of stealing food, you should be getting a job and providing food for those in need. Paul is the best example we have. He was murdering Christians, but he became one of the greatest influences in the known world for the cause of Christ. You see, what we do here on earth is important and it can have lasting implications across generations.

When we enter into the Kingdom of God, we have a comforter who is able to bind our wounds and is able to grant us an inner peace. I recall being on my knees at the funeral home, alone with my beautiful daughter. When I was able to compose myself, I felt a great inner peace that could only come from God. It was that same inner peace, inner presence, I had felt when I was in an Orphanage as a young child. Both were times of great duress. As I left my daughters viewing, I raised my hands in praise and from my very bones, I thanked him for the time He had given her with me and I could feel the tears being wiped away. How was it that for a moment, I had found such joy in that moments space? Perhaps it was the same inner peace Jeremiah found. I would encourage you to read Lamentations within it's proper context.
Lamentations 3:22-26 It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness. The LORD is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in him. The LORD is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeketh him. It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.

We cause our own hell and Jeremiah was in the midst of it. Israel was to be a light for all nations, but she took the blessings of the LORD and did not use them purely or properly. We call this anti-kingdom. Read Israels history and you'll find that she was worse than Sodom in Ezekiel 16. (Ezekiel, Jeremiah and Isaiah were contemporaries).

People do really bad things in this world. They abuse children by beating them and some die. They molest little children, they kidnap children and sell them as sex slaves. Some abandon their children and even so, some don't care about their children. But when these things become the norm for a society or a sub culture, hell becomes a reality. But this state is so much more. You see, any time we look at a person as a commodity or we've degraded them to a sub-human state, we've imposed hell upon them. I would urge you to read Ezekiel 16 and you'll see the hell Israel had created by failing to live the way God commanded them, and I want you to think about how a society gone astray can have such a negative impact on the lives of so many innocent people. I want you to think of the Holocaust, Rwanda and apartheid. I want you to think about radical Islam and ISIS. Yes, Hell is real and what we do NOW is important. Heaven isn't a destination, it's a journey and we are either advancing the Kingdom of God, or we are advancing the Kingdom of Satan.

The hell we experience here is still bound in hope that God is there and is able to heal. Hell in the afterlife is eternal separation from God, there is no hope.

I believe a bell just went off in my head about Job, satan is nicknamed the accuser and that is the only story we hear about this attribute in the presence of God. God grants permission, and so the testing of Job continues. God tests us (not tempts), and do you believe this continues in the same manner? Is satan standing in the presence of God claiming that a particular person worships you now, but if you took this or that way, they would worship you no longer. Just as you raised your hand in worship to God after you had been with your daughter.

Does this continue today?

 

[Jesse]

since jeff, has brought in the jewish thought on lights and darkness. that is the yud. but I want to tie in the yechida to that. its what all men have and all are given some of awareness of God. we decide to neglect it or find out if God is real and from their repent. notice the statements by jeff on what we do that makes it evil or fail to do and see what I have made a connection to. the yechida is that part of our soul that is from God and returns to him at death.

This would correspond to the scripture in Hebrews speaking of "men are without excuse".

They believe only part of our soul returns to Him? This would be their "reincarnation"?

 

[jasonc]

This would correspond to the scripture in Hebrews speaking of "men are without excuse".

They believe only part of our soul returns to Him? This would be their "reincarnation"?

not sure, I link that idea of the yechida to romans one

 

[Jesse]

not sure, I link that idea of the yechida to romans one

Yes, Romans - sorry.

 

[stovebolts]

The hell we experience here is still bound in hope that God is there and is able to heal. Hell in the afterlife is eternal separation from God, there is no hope.

I believe a bell just went off in my head about Job, satan is nicknamed the accuser and that is the only story we hear about this attribute in the presence of God. God grants permission, and so the testing of Job continues. God tests us (not tempts), and do you believe this continues in the same manner? Is satan standing in the presence of God claiming that a particular person worships you now, but if you took this or that way, they would worship you no longer. Just as you raised your hand in worship to God after you had been with your daughter.

Does this continue today?

I'm on my phone, so this will be short.
Job is a story of a gentile who feared God. He had all the outward appearances of a Godly man.
What Job lacked was relationships, especially with God. God desires a relationship with us, and not simply rote obedience. He doesn't want us to fear him, he wants us to love him.
The last chapter, Job says I heard of you (God) but now I know you.

Satan only sees the outward man. God sees the inward man. Satan serves Gods good purpose.

 

[Jesse]

I'm on my phone, so this will be short.
Job is a story of a gentile who feared God. He had all the outward appearances of a Godly man.
What Job lacked was relationships, especially with God. God desires a relationship with us, and not simply rote obedience. He doesn't want us to fear him, he wants us to love him.
The last chapter, Job says I heard of you (God) but now I know you.

Satan only sees the outward man. God sees the inward man. Satan serves Gods good purpose.

Wasn't the deal about Job was he was self-righteous? Not discounting the relationship portion, as this is what God has been pursuing since creation. I did a study on that last year and it is fascinating how God kept pursuing, pursuing and pursuing, His grace is awesome. The symbolism in the OT is genius, love learning about that, too.

In regards to fear, it is the beginning of all wisdom, right? What if Cain did not fear God, but out of reverent fear Abel offered the sacrifice he did?

 

[stovebolts]

Wasn't the deal about Job was he was self-righteous? Not discounting the relationship portion, as this is what God has been pursuing since creation. I did a study on that last year and it is fascinating how God kept pursuing, pursuing and pursuing, His grace is awesome. The symbolism in the OT is genius, love learning about that, too.

In regards to fear, it is the beginning of all wisdom, right? What if Cain did not fear God, but out of reverent fear Abel offered the sacrifice he did?

Fear certainly has it's place. But we can't get stuck in that place because God is in the business of transformation and wants to save every aspect of who we are.

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love: but perfect love casteth out fear, because fear hath punishment; and he that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Why did Job offer sacrifices for his children?

This is about the best study I've ever ran across. http://www.greenfieldjudaica.com/ar...-iyov---job-by-rabbi-moshe-eisemann-IYOH.html

The book of Job is wide and it's easy to get focused on the tragedy that was inflicted upon him. We often want to talk about all that was taken away from him and in doing so, we can fail to see our own struggles, losses and fixed ideas.

I don't know that Job was really self righteous at all. I think he was human, and he responded as a human when his world view on God and God's economy was turned upside down.
Imagine this for a moment. You've got God in a box and that system is working for you. Your doing everything right. You've been blessed and your blessing others. Others look to you as a Godly man and you give them good council. Your humility and piety, impeccable. All of a sudden, tragedy strikes in an immeasurable way. Your lost, confused and from your very bones you don't understand. It wasn't supposed to be this way. This isn't supposed to happen to me, but it is happening to me and all I want to know is why? Why God?

Your friends come to console you, and your grief is so consuming you don't even appreciate them coming to sit with you. Yet they stay and out of obligation, the dialog on who God is and how God operates within this world begins as the question as to the "Why" is attempted to be answered. One says that all this calamity is upon Job because Job sinned greatly and that if Job were to repent, God would flow his blessings upon Job once again. Yeah.... I'd really like to have a friend like that...

Think on this for a moment: Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Who in their right mind would sin on purpose just so God's grace would be multiplied? Where does that idea originate?

When bad things happen to good people, and we keep our faith in the Lord (Job never lost his faith), God's grace abounds in us and we are built up. Our wounds are healed and we embody the knowledge only attainable through the experience. We should not put ourselves in a position of experience for the sake of attaining the experience for our condemnation is deserved when we do so. Paul later explains the why like this: Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

This is why James can write: James 1:2-5 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith works patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that you may be perfect and entire, lacking in nothing. If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all men liberally, and reproaches not; and it shall be given him.

Job is about human suffering at it's very core when the system you've constructed no longer stands and your left with nothing but questions that strike to the very core of your essence. All of Job's friends were right, but all of them were wrong. Knowledge puffs up, love builds up. Did Job Love the LORD? Of course he did. But how much more did that love grow once he "Knew" the Lord. You see, we can love an idea and we can love a system, especially when it's working perfectly and we'r cashing the check each week. But God want's so much more than that from us because he want's to bless us in every aspect of our lives. Why is it that God has to command us to love him?

I have often prayed, "God, please.. no more trials in my life. I am beaten, worn and have little breath. Give me new skin that I can feel and new eyes that I can see the needs of others without the painful trials from where wisdom has to be realized through circumstance."

You are wise before your time because of your circumstances. Many will never understand what you have obtained because they have never experienced it. Some will be able to sympathize, but empathy will always allude them. But your wisdom has given you an ear to those who suffer, and you are better equipped to console them.... and when you do, keep the friends of Job in mind because even if you become the person without wisdom, a hug and silence may just be the best thing a person needs.

 

[Jesse]

The self-righteousness of Job (the way I was taught), is that Job lacked faith in God's righteousness. He was not able to comprehend why God would allow this all to happen to him. He had difficult understanding the difference between his own righteousness (self) and that of God's. He was self justifying. We do that all the time, we justify our own actions because we think they are righteous (and they are in our own eyes - haha), but not in God's. He learned to know the Lord and He came to know God's righteousness is far greater than anything we could call our own.

Regardless, maybe you do not agree with this and that's ok, it's not really the focus of what we're discussing.

A person can either pray to God to stop sending trials our way or we can pray to be sent into the Lion's Den. I guess we have to determine what is God's Will for each of us here, it is all the same - to worship and glorify Him, to bring Him great pleasure. Being sent into the Lion's Den and having God protect you from their jaws, is glorifying God - it sucks but it does, because we know - verse Romans 8:28.

Thanks for the link to the study, I will get to that today, appreciate it.

 

[stovebolts]

Jesse
What you wrote is all good stuff and I don't disagree with any of it.
You remind me of myself when I was younger. It almost scares me. I'm just at a different place in my life now than I was then, and I don't have the strength to enter the lions den. I am tired. Chief Joseph's best words were, "I will fight no more forever". I understand that within it's simplicity. But I also understand the journey Chief Joseph had to go through to get to that point, and it makes you tired.
When Job was tired, his friends did not lift his hands for him. He was alone. When the arms of Moses became tired, his friends held them for him, and they won the battle. We can't do this on our own, we need community.
Understand?

 

[Jesse]

I wasn't implying that you pray to enter the lion's den, after all you have already entered haven't you?

I just read your thread "Daily Struggles", I didn't even know it existed until now. I could answer your question "understand?" with a yes, but I don't believe I understand anything, so no, not really.

 

[stovebolts]

You don't have to understand why a tree grows when you plant the seed. You simply have to recognise that its growing and your part is to simply supply the water when you see that its parched and its leaves are wilting.

This brings us full circle. Listen, can you hear the cry of your brother?

Sometimes we have to have faith when we reach out to another.

We are going to watch the entire X-man series. . Should take about 8 hours.

And no, I'm not always this depressing.

 

[Jesse]

You don't have to understand why a tree grows when you plant the seed. You simply have to recognise that its growing and your part is to simply supply the water when you see that its parched and its leaves are wilting.

This brings us full circle. Listen, can you hear the cry of your brother?

Sometimes we have to have faith when we reach out to another.

We are going to watch the entire X-man series. . Should take about 8 hours.

And no, I'm not always this depressing.

It's why life is so frustrating for people like us, we have to know why, what, where and when, at least I do. The unknown doesn't always set good.

 

[stovebolts]

Jesse
Your last post made me think of this verse.
Matthew 7:6-8 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and tear you.
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asks receives; and he that seeks finds; and to him that knocks it shall be opened.

 

[jasonc]

You don't have to understand why a tree grows when you plant the seed. You simply have to recognise that its growing and your part is to simply supply the water when you see that its parched and its leaves are wilting.

That wouldn't be some Jewish saying about the torah , now would it?

 

[Jesse]

Jesse
Your last post made me think of this verse.
Matthew 7:6-8 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and tear you.
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asks receives; and he that seeks finds; and to him that knocks it shall be opened.

This verse might be appropriate too, "my grace is sufficient for you" - we may not get all the answers, but because His grace is sufficient and He supplies all our needs, that is enough <for now and then after my glorified body sets in, I have 1,000's of questions, has God ever been annoyed?>. haha

 

[stovebolts]

That wouldn't be some Jewish saying about the torah , now would it?

No lol, it's an aberration from $cientology lol!

 

[stovebolts]

This verse might be appropriate too, "my grace is sufficient for you" - we may not get all the answers, but because His grace is sufficient and He supplies all our needs, that is enough <for now and then after my glorified body sets in, I have 1,000's of questions, has God ever been annoyed?>. haha

No kidding lol! Wait another 30 years and you'll realize that you still don't have all the answers lol!
I've got so many questions tucked in my back pocket I couldn't begin to list them all. They're all cataloged in my wee little mind and every once in awhile God puts the puzzle together just at the right time.
Never be afraid to ask the question, and never get so stuck thinking you have all the right answers you close yourself to what others bring to the table ;-)
And yes, I've learned from you.

 

[Jesse]

No kidding lol! Wait another 30 years and you'll realize that you still don't have all the answers lol!
I've got so many questions tucked in my back pocket I couldn't begin to list them all. They're all cataloged in my wee little mind and every once in awhile God puts the puzzle together just at the right time.
Never be afraid to ask the question, and never get so stuck thinking you have all the right answers you close yourself to what others bring to the table ;-)
And yes, I've learned from you.

It just seems the more a person studies, things become more clearer, but then it leaves more questions. haha

I have learned much from you, as well as others on this forum. Here is the location of a recent question I asked, perhaps you can shed some insight, I would like your take:

http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/sanctification.57324/#post-1032794