Bible Study Cain and Abel

[reba]

We all killed Jesus our Brother...

It blows me away how Joseph forgave his brothers and treated them like he did when they came for food. I think he tested them at first to see if they had changed, by placing their money back into their sacks and making them bring Benjamin. Once he realized they really had matured, he reveals himself. He's a good example of forgiveness.

I wonder if Adam and Eve were ever able to forgive Cain?!?

I think the hardest thing for us humans to forgive is some one love hurting someone we love...

 

[Malachi]

The mark was part of the punishment? The reason I ask is because I've always viewed the mark as a warning to others, but people must have treated him differently, too.

You are correct on both counts. The mark was a stigma as well as a warning "Hands off! God has already judged this murderer!" Today cold-blooded murder leaves a stigma on the soul.

 

[Jesse]

You are correct on both counts. The mark was a stigma as well as a warning "Hands off! God has already judged this murderer!" Today cold-blooded murder leaves a stigma on the soul.

Even if the murderer eventually repents and turns to Christ? He would be forgiven and made clean right?

 

[Jesse]

We all killed Jesus our Brother...

I think the hardest thing for us humans to forgive is some one love hurting someone we love...

I can see that and like you said, all our sins put Christ on the cross.

It's also difficult when the hurting of the one we love continues.

 

[Malachi]

Then there is the whole issue of forgiveness....that's a difficult part, too.

In the case of Cain and Abel, Abel had done no wrong. And Cain had to suffer his just punishment. But there is always forgiveness with God, and had Cain repented and confessed his sin, God would have forgiven him. Had Cain become a man of faith, he would have immediately offered sacrifices pleasing to the Lord (Gen 4:6,7). God gave him an opportunity to repent, but Cain refused it. Instead, Cain turned to do more evil by building a God-less city. As a result, his descendant Lamech become even more evil, following the example of his ancestor (Gen 4:23,24).

But back to the issue of Christians forgiving others, it need not be difficult if (a) we remember that Christ forgave ALL our sins and iniquities and (b) the one who holds grudges and bitterness within hurts himself more than the offfender (or imagined offender). Many offences are "imaginary" and can be resolved through mediation and arbitration. Usually foolish pride is involved.

 

[stovebolts]

SB, I'm so sorry for your temporary loss. I almost lost my only grandchild, a grandson, not even 2 years old yet, 3 weeks ago. To see him on life support....I could barely stand it, and thought I might die myself from the grief.

It was personally horrifying. It rips the religious guts right out of us.

S,
I am sorry that you had to go through that, and it brings me much joy that you have your grandson to enjoy another day. Cherish him, even when he drives you crazy. I lost my first born when she was 3 months old. I didn't understand. I hated God. But when my next daughter was born, I cherished every moment, especially when she would wake up in the middle of the night and I would rock her. I still have that rocking chair.

The loss of a child rips the very core out of you. Words cannot describe the pain. I have experienced it twice in my life. It changes ones outlook on everything, even God.

Why did God have to send his Son to die on the cross? Ohh, I could give you that pat answer. The same propaganda that is spread in every church on how he had to die for our sins and yada yada. And believe me, I am not making light of that and though I use the words yada yada, do not mistake those words as mocking or degrading. But knowledge isn't wisdom and only wisdom knows how to console a troubled soul. Knowledge puffs up and is of little help to one suffering, but a warn embrace from somebody who understands makes all the difference.

So why did God have to send his son to die on the cross? Why did Jesus have to suffer so deeply? The book of Hebrews tells us that Jesus was perfected in his suffering (the cross) and elsewhere it says Jesus understands our suffering, because he too suffered. This is wisdom, and this is what causes the scriptures to come alive which makes them living and breathing IMHO.

How does a Father or Mother react when their child goes astray and rejects them? How does a Father or Mother feel when they watch their child going down the wrong path and the child does not heed the parents warning? How does a parent feel when a piece of themselves dies at the very hand of a child they love immeasurably?

Jesus understands, because he experienced it. Crucify him, and let his blood be upon us and our children... How that must of hurt much deeper than the beating and the crown of thorns smashed into his brow. Much deeper than the nails that were driven into his hands and feet. How it must have hurt him deeply to be mocked by those he cared so much for. And how did he show his love? He did not strike out with violence. He did not speak out in anger. No, he had a mature understanding and it was this. Father, forgive them. For they don't know what they are doing. We are but children, and we don't know what we're doing half the time. We think we do, but we don't.
Had Jesus struck out in violence, the day would have never came when those same children had their hearts pricked because of what they had done, and Peter would have never replied, "Repent and be baptized, for the promise is to both you and your children".

Jesus opened himself up and poured himself out as an example to each and every one of us. I never understood what it meant to "Pick up your cross daily", but I am finding that it is to open ourselves up, and pour ourselves out to others around us. We listen for the cry, and we wipe away the tears of others. We can do this because we understand... we get it. Our empathy is real, its not fake. We are not like Cain, full of rules and boundaries which separate the land and keep our brothers out. We do not respond in pride and indifference. Instead, we submit. Paul says that when others are weak, he is weak. And he goes on to say that when he is weak, he is strong. Why? Because that still small voice which is able to bring surpassing peace is found when we break ourselves open and pour ourselves out for others.

 

[stovebolts]

Thanks. He was really abusive, my brother was, too. I ended up in the hospital because of my dad's abuse, internal bleeding from hits to the stomach, surgery for spleen. I left before either one of them could send me to the hospital and me not make it next time, if you know what I mean.

It could have been sort of like Cain and Abel. He is the older, too. It seems a little like Joseph, too, because my brother betrayed me.

Wow, I'm glad you got out of that situation. How old are you anyway?

When I was a young child, I came across one of those bible books with the colorful art work. You know, the ones where Jesus has blonde flowing hair lol. Anyway, Joseph always resonated with me because he was separated from his family just like I was when I was placed in foster care. He was also the favorite, and my Mom let me know that too. There are other reasons, but I'll just say that the story of Joseph and his brothers moved me and it resonated deep within my bones at a very young age. Say, is that series your listening to on XM ? My wife has been telling me about a series she's been listening to on Joseph and she has really been enjoying it. Funny too, because the festival of lights prepares by speaking much about Joseph. You may enjoy this article. http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/65485/jewish/A-Rift-Extending-Across-History.htm

What is normal though? Isn't normal subjective? There are many kids who have went through what you've gone through and they need a light to show them a way out of the dungeon they're in. Joseph went through abuse from many different people, but God intended it for the good works later on.

Never fall victim because in Christ, we are over comers. We beat the odds and we do things others say we can't do. We are far from normal. We are children of God.

 

[smaller]

I went through a gut wrenching period of death about 14 years ago. 3 lifelong closest friends died in tragic accidents in a period of 90 days. The youngest, one of my cousins, was 40. The oldest, 56. Two of them had kids 12-14 years old. The causes, a motorcycle accident, a physical assault and a vicarious suicide. Over the course of the next 9 months I lost 11 other friends and relatives including another cousin who died in his sleep of heart failure at age 43. 2002 was probably the worst year of my life in regards to death of people close to me. I don't think a person can be reduced to any lower point than dealing personally with death. In many ways we die as well. A gapping dark hole remains within that can not be filled in no matter what we believe. It is just LOSS. And that loss remains within us regardless of how we view it. Even in our hope of eternal life.

I don't take my understandings in christianity lightly. I've tested everything, everything I thought I knew and know today continually, to know where I stand and why. And have done so PRIMARILY because life has proven to me to be undoubtedly tragic, filled with tribulations and continually internally upsetting. I don't seek the rest in Christ out of knowledge, but of deep seated need. And I've sought to see Gods Wisdom in these matters.

In the matters of Cain and Able I could look at the actions of Cain and try to understand why Cain's sacrifice was not accepted. Perhaps the first observation I would make is that in my understandings, the 'ground' or the 'earth' where we see the terms deployed in text are allegories for our bodies. Adam was made of dust. He was earthly. A flesh man. A carnal man. What we often fail to understand or to look at theologically is WHY. We know unbelievers are blinded to the Gospel by the 'god of this world who blinds their minds.' That would be Satan. Yes, that is exactly why people don't believe and also why they sin and ALSO why we ALL die. Sin is of the devil and we all sin. The body dies because of SIN. The math is clear on this matter for me.

When we look at Cain with the pleasure of retrospective scripture, we find this statement of fact from John:

1 John 3:12
Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

We always, early in our theological studies, try to see the actions of the persons, so we may analyze and avoid their mistakes. So we look at simple external matters such as the sacrifice of Cain being from the field, the earth. In terms of allegory however the real earth of Cain, that would be his body including his mind, had been invaded by an enemy that was not him. That would be Satan. In the body/mind of Cain there were two parties present. Cain and the wicked one. The 'offering' that Cain brought forth was from the GROUND. Do you see the connection?

There was a problem with Cain's sacrifice not because it was grain from the ground, but that his own body and mind had a problem called sin, which is of the wicked one. God accepts nothing from such directions. Cain was even warned about it by God directly prior to commiting his deed:

Genesis 4:7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

God was speaking of Cain's forthcoming battle with the evil one. Cain was warned about it by Gods rejection of his sacrifice. The lesson here is that the ground of man, of Cain, produces sin. And it is subject to violation by our enemy.

Were we to look at Cain more deeply, we would see Cain as a younger vessel and the wicked one in his own body and mind as the elder vessel. That is the heart of the message of Cain. The real elder vessel can not be seen. It is a wicked spirit called Satan and that wicked one does wicked things in conjunctions with his captives. All of us started our lives in those shoes.

If we looked at every such pair in the Gospel in regards to the above, there are such deep lessons with the elder and the younger and they all revolve around man and our enemy, the enemy of our soul. The external sights point to the reality of our current life battle with that enemy.

The sacrifice of Able, God accepted. Why? Because Able was the younger. The elder, Cain, has shown us his problem, captivity by the wicked one. But the real elder lied internally.

It's not that Able didn't sin or have sin like everyone else. It's a lesson in symbolism on many counts. The sacrifice of Able required shed blood. I think we all see the preshowing of the sacrifice of Christ in that matter. Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission. Though I would never equate Christ's sacrifice to be anything similar to animal sacrifice. It was much much Greater. It was God Who Gave His Only Son for us for the shedding of innocent blood. Few of us see that His sacrifice was not only about forgiveness, but also for the FINAL INDICTMENT of Satan and his messengers in Divine Judgments. Yes, those parties were/are also involved in every person.

We never seem to get this part of theology.

When we understand, when we believe, we COME OUT from under our spiritual slumber, our spiritual blindness, our captivity of that slaveship to Satan. The 'elder vessel' in the GROUND of humanity.

Such are some of the lessons of Cain and Able. I could write more, but that's enough.

 

[stovebolts]

Two questions come to mind:
1. Why was Cain's offering rejected but Abel's offering accepted?
2. Why did Cain murder Abel and what was his punishment?

The answer to to first question is in Jude 1:10,11 "But they speak evl of those things which they know not: BUT WHAT THEY KNOW NATURALLY, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. Woe unto them! FOR THEY HAVE GONE IN THE WAY OF CAIN..."

The Bible reveals that there are three kinds of people: (1) the natural man whose spirit is dead, (2) the "carnal" man whose spirit is alive but who is governed by "the flesh", and (3) the "spiritual" man who is governed by the Holy Spirit, and is therefore a man of faith.

Cain was a "natural" man (as shown above) who either could not, or would not, see the value that God places on the shed blood of sacrificial animals (which speak of Christ). Therefore he offered what was unacceptable to God -- "the fruit of the ground" (Gen 4:3).

Abel, on the other hand was a man of faith, therefore he offered what faith requires -- "the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof" (Gen 4:4) -- therefore trust in the shed blood of the Lamb of God. Thus we read in Heb 11:4 "BY FAITH ABel offered unto God A MORE EXCELLENT SACRIFICE than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh".

It is obvious from the text that as a result Cain was "very wroth" (extremely angry) and "his countenance fell" (extremely humiliated). Bitter anger led to murderous thoughts within, and finally a heinous murder (Gen 4:8). Therefore his punishment was that he was accursed, his land was accursed, and he was rendered a fugitive and a vagabond. His life was spared because he received "the mark of Cain", but "he went out from the presence of the Lord" (Gen 4:16) and is now awaiting eternal Hell.

Subsequently, under the Noahic Covenant murder would become a capital crime punishable by death (Gen 9:5,6), and so it would remain through Bible times and even to this day in the majority of countries. Abolition of capital punishment (the death penalty) for murder violates God's command and His justice.

I disagree that God rejected Cain's offering because it was "the fruit of the ground" and then goes on to compare it with Able's who gave the fat of his flock. While it makes a fine sounding doctrine, I believe it strays away from the core.

Why does the writer of Hebrews say that by Faith Able offered a more excellent sacrifice than Cain?
What we see are two different world views. Cain is a farmer. He works the land and claims that land as his. He learns that if he works, his reward is just. He learns that he gets out of the land what he puts into the land. He learns that he doesn't need to lean on God for his sustenance, he only has to work hard and his harvest is near. He has a sense of entitlement due to his hard work and because he feels entitled, he feels a need to preserve that which is his. He sets boundaries and builds fences and enjoys the fruits of his labor, but fails to share it with those in need. Cain, becomes a very selfish and self centered man with a very narrow view of who God is for scripture says, "I desire mercy, not sacrifice". Cain, did not know mercy.

When we look at a shepherd, he understands that there are no boundaries. He goes where the pastures are greenest. He understands that the land is God's land, and that God provides the needs of his flock. He understands that the creek he just watered his sheep at came from God, and he does not claim ownership on any of it. Mostly, he has faith that God will continue to provide for he and his flock. He has faith that year after year the rains will come and the pastures will be green. He understands this connection between God and the land.

So, whey did Cain kill Able? Because he was jealous. Because he thought that because he worked so hard, he should have earned favor with the Lord and he thought he was better than his wandering brother because he had something to show for his labor. He was angry because he didn't understand the connection between the Land and God. And why was he angry? Because he was hurt. He wanted God's favor, yearned for God's favor and he thought that if he just worked hard enough, built a city big enough, God would see how much he could do and would be proud of him. This is what happens when we trust in our own hands. God says to Job, "If you think you can do all these things, then I'll confess that your right hand can save you". (Job 40).

What was Cain's punishment? The works of his hands were to be cursed. He would toil, but the land would not produce for him. (The land was not cursed, for it had already been cursed) He would be a wanderer in the land.

Stop and think about that for a moment? Why is it that Able wandered the land and realized it was God who provided, but when Cain wandered the land, he went to build a city? More so than just a fence, but walls and buildings. Ironically, the text says "Building a city". That means that his city was not complete, nor would it ever be. Why? Because he needed bigger, he needed more. More and more, bigger and bigger. Me and mine. It's too bad Cain couldn't have taken that time of wandering to have the epiphany, "So, this is what my brother saw out here...." Too bad Cain couldn't find the inner peace. Its too bad he didn't find out what faith looked like.

 

[stovebolts]

I went through a gut wrenching period of death about 14 years ago. 3 lifelong closest friends died in tragic accidents in a period of 90 days. The youngest, one of my cousins, was 40. The oldest, 56. Two of them had kids 12-14 years old. The causes, a motorcycle accident, a physical assault and a vicarious suicide. Over the course of the next 9 months I lost 11 other friends and relatives including another cousin who died in his sleep of heart failure at age 43. 2002 was probably the worst year of my life in regards to death of people close to me. I don't think a person can be reduced to any lower point than dealing personally with death. In many ways we die as well. A gapping dark hole remains within that can not be filled in no matter what we believe. It is just LOSS. And that loss remains within us regardless of how we view it. Even in our hope of eternal life.

I don't take my understandings in christianity lightly. I've tested everything, everything I thought I knew and know today continually, to know where I stand and why. And have done so PRIMARILY because life has proven to me to be undoubtedly tragic, filled with tribulations and continually internally upsetting. I don't seek the rest in Christ out of knowledge, but of deep seated need. And I've sought to see Gods Wisdom in these matters.

In the matters of Cain and Able I could look at the actions of Cain and try to understand why Cain's sacrifice was not accepted. Perhaps the first observation I would make is that in my understandings, the 'ground' or the 'earth' where we see the terms deployed in text are allegories for our bodies. Adam was made of dust. He was earthly. A flesh man. A carnal man. What we often fail to understand or to look at theologically is WHY. We know unbelievers are blinded to the Gospel by the 'god of this world who blinds their minds.' That would be Satan. Yes, that is exactly why people don't believe and also why they sin and ALSO why we ALL die. Sin is of the devil and we all sin. The body dies because of SIN. The math is clear on this matter for me.

When we look at Cain with the pleasure of retrospective scripture, we find this statement of fact from John:

1 John 3:12
Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

We always, early in our theological studies, try to see the actions of the persons, so we may analyze and avoid their mistakes. So we look at simple external matters such as the sacrifice of Cain being from the field, the earth. In terms of allegory however the real earth of Cain, that would be his body including his mind, had been invaded by an enemy that was not him. That would be Satan. In the body/mind of Cain there were two parties present. Cain and the wicked one. The 'offering' that Cain brought forth was from the GROUND. Do you see the connection?

There was a problem with Cain's sacrifice not because it was grain from the ground, but that his own body and mind had a problem called sin, which is of the wicked one. God accepts nothing from such directions. Cain was even warned about it by God directly prior to commiting his deed:

Genesis 4:7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

God was speaking of Cain's forthcoming battle with the evil one. Cain was warned about it by Gods rejection of his sacrifice. The lesson here is that the ground of man, of Cain, produces sin. And it is subject to violation by our enemy.

Were we to look at Cain more deeply, we would see Cain as a younger vessel and the wicked one in his own body and mind as the elder vessel. That is the heart of the message of Cain. The real elder vessel can not be seen. It is a wicked spirit called Satan and that wicked one does wicked things in conjunctions with his captives. All of us started our lives in those shoes.

If we looked at every such pair in the Gospel in regards to the above, there are such deep lessons with the elder and the younger and they all revolve around man and our enemy, the enemy of our soul. The external sights point to the reality of our current life battle with that enemy.

The sacrifice of Able, God accepted. Why? Because Able was the younger. The elder, Cain, has shown us his problem, captivity by the wicked one. But the real elder lied internally.

It's not that Able didn't sin or have sin like everyone else. It's a lesson in symbolism on many counts. The sacrifice of Able required shed blood. I think we all see the preshowing of the sacrifice of Christ in that matter. Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission. Though I would never equate Christ's sacrifice to be anything similar to animal sacrifice. It was much much Greater. It was God Who Gave His Only Son for us for the shedding of innocent blood. Few of us see that His sacrifice was not only about forgiveness, but also for the FINAL INDICTMENT of Satan and his messengers in Divine Judgments. Yes, those parties were/are also involved in every person.

We never seem to get this part of theology.

When we understand, when we believe, we COME OUT from under our spiritual slumber, our spiritual blindness, our captivity of that slaveship to Satan. The 'elder vessel' in the GROUND of humanity.

Such are some of the lessons of Cain and Able. I could write more, but that's enough.

Very well written, and if you were to write more, it would be my good pleasure to read more... but not today as I'm off for holiday shopping and hopefully, some time in the blind before hunting season ends ;-)

 

[Jesse]

I disagree that God rejected Cain's offering because it was "the fruit of the ground" and then goes on to compare it with Able's who gave the fat of his flock. While it makes a fine sounding doctrine, I believe it strays away from the core.

Why does the writer of Hebrews say that by Faith Able offered a more excellent sacrifice than Cain?
What we see are two different world views. Cain is a farmer. He works the land and claims that land as his. He learns that if he works, his reward is just. He learns that he gets out of the land what he puts into the land. He learns that he doesn't need to lean on God for his sustenance, he only has to work hard and his harvest is near. He has a sense of entitlement due to his hard work and because he feels entitled, he feels a need to preserve that which is his. He sets boundaries and builds fences and enjoys the fruits of his labor, but fails to share it with those in need. Cain, becomes a very selfish and self centered man with a very narrow view of who God is for scripture says, "I desire mercy, not sacrifice". Cain, did not know mercy.

When we look at a shepherd, he understands that there are no boundaries. He goes where the pastures are greenest. He understands that the land is God's land, and that God provides the needs of his flock. He understands that the creek he just watered his sheep at came from God, and he does not claim ownership on any of it. Mostly, he has faith that God will continue to provide for he and his flock. He has faith that year after year the rains will come and the pastures will be green. He understands this connection between God and the land.

So, whey did Cain kill Able? Because he was jealous. Because he thought that because he worked so hard, he should have earned favor with the Lord and he thought he was better than his wandering brother because he had something to show for his labor. He was angry because he didn't understand the connection between the Land and God. And why was he angry? Because he was hurt. He wanted God's favor, yearned for God's favor and he thought that if he just worked hard enough, built a city big enough, God would see how much he could do and would be proud of him. This is what happens when we trust in our own hands. God says to Job, "If you think you can do all these things, then I'll confess that your right hand can save you". (Job 40).

What was Cain's punishment? The works of his hands were to be cursed. He would toil, but the land would not produce for him. (The land was not cursed, for it had already been cursed) He would be a wanderer in the land.

Stop and think about that for a moment? Why is it that Able wandered the land and realized it was God who provided, but when Cain wandered the land, he went to build a city? More so than just a fence, but walls and buildings. Ironically, the text says "Building a city". That means that his city was not complete, nor would it ever be. Why? Because he needed bigger, he needed more. More and more, bigger and bigger. Me and mine. It's too bad Cain couldn't have taken that time of wandering to have the epiphany, "So, this is what my brother saw out here...." Too bad Cain couldn't find the inner peace. Its too bad he didn't find out what faith looked like.

Cain's offering could not have been rejected solely on the basis he offered something from a cursed land, because the ground continued to be cursed even when the Israelites made the same sort of offerings. It makes sense unless I'm missing something.

Cain's offering was "right in his own eyes" and as you have said, he justified it because he thought the work he performed would make it acceptable. Hmm....imagine doing that one. haha We're still making that mistake.

 

[Jesse]

Wow, I'm glad you got out of that situation. How old are you anyway?

When I was a young child, I came across one of those bible books with the colorful art work. You know, the ones where Jesus has blonde flowing hair lol. Anyway, Joseph always resonated with me because he was separated from his family just like I was when I was placed in foster care. He was also the favorite, and my Mom let me know that too. There are other reasons, but I'll just say that the story of Joseph and his brothers moved me and it resonated deep within my bones at a very young age. Say, is that series your listening to on XM ? My wife has been telling me about a series she's been listening to on Joseph and she has really been enjoying it. Funny too, because the festival of lights prepares by speaking much about Joseph. You may enjoy this article. http://www.chabad.org/parshah/article_cdo/aid/65485/jewish/A-Rift-Extending-Across-History.htm

What is normal though? Isn't normal subjective? There are many kids who have went through what you've gone through and they need a light to show them a way out of the dungeon they're in. Joseph went through abuse from many different people, but God intended it for the good works later on.

Never fall victim because in Christ, we are over comers. We beat the odds and we do things others say we can't do. We are far from normal. We are children of God.

Thanks.
That's how it was when I was listening to the sermon on Joseph, it was healing for me and yes, it was on XM radio. LOL Every morning at 7:00. I don't even know who the pastor is, I kept trying to catch his name but I guess it didn't matter. I'm 18.

 

[stovebolts]

Jesse Your pretty sharp and mature for being 18. God has big plans for you!

 

[Jesse]

Jesse Your pretty sharp and mature for being 18. God has big plans for you!

Thanks SB.

If you knew me in "real life" you may not say the same. haha In reality, my father stole my childhood from me, it is what it is and I suppose in the long run maybe it will be a good thing.

 

[stovebolts]

smaller

Do me a favor would ya? I'm almost dumb as a rock when it comes to high theological spiritual stuff. But I got to thinking about this, and I'd like to hear your thoughts.

We know that Ables blood polluted the land and Isiah wrote this>
Isaiah 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

I believe Isaiah is reflecting on Cain and Able, and all the stories that followed this pattern throughout time.

Christ's blood was poured out for the forgiveness of sin, and the blood and water testifies to this. Just as Able's blood was spilled out, and cries out, so does the blood of the saints and all who followed in the likeness of Able.

On the cross, the Blood of Jesus was poured out upon the land.. do you see the connection? Thoughts?

 

[stovebolts]

Thanks SB.

If you knew me in "real life" you may not say the same. haha In reality, my father stole my childhood from me, it is what it is and I suppose in the long run maybe it will be a good thing.

Your not a alone. My childhood was stolen as well. I was placed in foster homes when I was about 5. Returned to my Dad's in the end of the 4th grade and by the time I was 12 I figured I was better off making my own way on the streets. That put me into Juvenile and then institutions. When I was 17, I was selling dope in Hollywood Ca. I didn't have much of a childhood and grew up well before my time..

But that doesn't mean life isn't good. Grab hold of the good wherever you can find it and rejoice in it. Don't be afraid to be that kid. Smile, God loves you

 

[smaller]

smaller
Thoughts?

Had to split this post into 2:

These matters of Cain and Able and Adam and Eve might be generally known as the study of PROTOLOGY, the theological study of beginnings in the scriptures. You hit on an important matter when you saw that the work of Cain's hands was defiled, represented by the produce of his hands. In the allegorical senses, yes, the work of our hands is defiled because of sin. Hence the rejected offering. Even this points to the curse of Adam in the garden:

Genesis 3:
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee;

We could also observe from this matter with Jesus, that the 'ground' produces also, the TARE. These are personal spiritual engagements for us to observe. What God has set before all of us in the 'external [in creation perceived through the 5 senses, touch, taste, smell, sight, hearing] is a vast physical display of the INTERNAL spiritual issues with all mankind. It is not just the produce of the ground that is defiled, but our own bodies and minds, being born in spiritual blindness or death as some may term it, which is a result of the curse of the ground. In that case of humanity, that curse is SIN. And that curse is linked to the deceptions of Satan, the tempter. This will be a very hard line of reasoning to follow for many reasons because it remains a present reality to this day that people, particularly believers, have a hard time coming to grips with on many counts. We have all be preached to repeatedly since we were children perhaps if we attended church, that it was the choice of Adam and Eve to sin. It was not a choice. It never was a choice. None of us 'chose' not to sin nor do any of us 'choose' ourselves to be sinless. It can not be done! We are all and remain sinners, even after salvation.

In this exercise it is MUCH MUCH more difficult to be TRUTHFUL and HONEST about being a factual sinner. We are all, down to the last of us, continually and quite entirely falsely led to 'count sins against mankind.' Even though we are WARNED repeatedly in the N.T. NOT TO DO SO!

To understand what happened to Cain, we should start with his progenitors of the flesh, Adam and Eve. Without the facts of Jesus being applied, we will continually fall short in our assessments of what really happened to them. I'll put Jesus' statement of fact on the table here quickly. We can start by looking at the conditions of Adam. I love Paul's teachings. Why? Because Paul personally was an honest and extremely self deprecating Apostle. Paul, by Divine Revelation, tells us primarily about his own blinded conditions. In Romans 7 for example he states that the sin that indwelt him was, as he put it twice in that chapter, NO LONGER I. He also said that he did evil, and that evil was present with him. God how I love such HONESTY! We are all hard pressed to hear such TRUTH in the pulpits today. Most are offended at such honesty. And Paul unfolds the matters, these same matters, that were basically handed down to ALL of humanity, starting with the PLANTING of Gods son, Adam (Luke 3:38, yes Adam was Gods son.)
1 Corinthians 15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Paul shows us here a DIVINE PRINCIPLE. It is just as sure and sound of a teaching there ever was. God never had any intention to leave His son, Adam, in a pile of wet dust (taken from outside the garden no less!) Even made in the image of God. That principle is this: There is FIRST, a NATURAL MAN. That first man Adam was a natural man, hence the little 's' in the term son. Nevertheless a natural son, bound in all his conditions as Paul notes above. And God in that matter had every intention of their being a LAST ADAM. A Perfect Son, our Lord, into which we are all to be part of His Perfect Eternal Body. (I'll observe how the BLOOD applies to this matter before the end of this post.)

So, lets look at the condition of the first, natural man, Adam, to understand his own first son, Cain. I think you can already see where this is going. The FIRST SON is a NATURAL SON. Cain was an example of the same thing Adam was. A natural man. So are we all when we begin this life in the corrupted flesh. We are born as natural sons in a vile body. Adam, sown in corruption, dishonor, weakness in a natural body that is bound for failure. That failure is a colossal failure of both mind and body in our eventual death of this clay cocoon.

Nevertheless, Adam was STILL Gods son, having the breath of life provided by God Himself into his dust pile. And also in that dust pile, Adams internal life was already there, in the form of EVE, a representative of his weaker, INNER MAN. The weaker vessel, but contained within Adam at his point of inception, to be later taken out, formed in beauty (emphasis to all of us flesh males!) and set before his flesh eyes. But lets take a closer look at Adam and what happened to Adam from Jesus.

We know from the start that God called both Adam and Eve, ADAM
Genesis 5:2
Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

When Adam was first formed they were both there, Adam and Eve, with Eve yet within, who had yet to be formed! So it is also with our own respective and BEAUTIFUL inner men, our last man, our SPIRITUAL BODY that The Hand of God will build and form, in allegorical fashions set before us as EVE or WOMAN. I again hope you can follow the allegorical pictures here.

Let's look then with Jesus at what really happened to Adam, on the day Adam/Eve co-joined were formed:
Genesis 1:
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

It was on that DAY, that first day of man, before Eve was formed, that GOD SOWED HIS WORDS OF BLESSINGS UPON THEM. Now let's take a look with the INsight of Jesus about what 'really' happened in that action and set the course of the natural man that caused his weakness, his corruption, his dishonor, his disobedience, his SLATED DIVINE fate of utter failure of the NATURAL MAN:
Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

We all, every natural man among us, because of the conditioning we have from BAD teaching and being natural men, can not come to grips with this reality. And we can not because it is only perceived and perceivable by the Light of Christ, the Light of Jesus shed upon this matter. If we, the spiritual man, see as Paul did, as Jesus did, we will not see only Adam immediately after the Words of blessing were sowed upon him. Satan did his deed of deception how fast? Yeah, immediately! At that point it was no longer a matter of Adam with Eve within. It was Adam/Eve within and the TEMPTER who had entered. Adam was already DECEIVED in his inner man, Eve.

Complex? Not to the man of the Spirit. In the very next action of God with Adam we find that the LAW was given to Adam to 'not eat.' Yes, that was the first law! We also know from the law that according to Paul the law is for WHOM? Uh, yeah. THE LAWLESS. The SINNERS. (1st Tim. 1:9)

 

[smaller]

deux:

After that sowing of Gods blessings and THE LAW, a SLUMBER came upon the natural man, Adam. That is an exact picture OF SLUMBER or STUPOR is replayed many times in the text and is a study all to itself. The slumber is upon the NATURAL MAN. The man who is blinded by the god of this world. That would be Satan, the tempter and the deceiver who was IN the garden to do his work in adverse relationship to the law and does so in the natural blinded man, the 'first son.' Now you know the condition of the first son. So it was with the first son of Adam, also with Cain, literally translated as "possession." Who then owns all natural blinded men? Uh, yeah, I think the spirit speaks pretty clearly to these matters. The 'god of this world' holds ALL natural men in his possession. Not as head spinning vomit spewing possesion, but as the deceived and blinded by that possessor! Nevertheless, heaven will only be occupied by the LAST MAN. The entrance fee is paid by BLOOD. Only HUMANS are scheduled in. The TEMPTER will not be there. The entrance price was paid by PERFECT BLOOD.

One must be born of SPIRIT and WATER as a NATURAL MAN FIRST, as a HUMAN with all of our obvious problems, to gain heaven. Heaven is for HUMANS in the course of 'first the natural, then the spiritual.' The first man and the last man.

John 3:
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

These two FACTS will go hand in hand in the order of God, who even placed Himself in the form of Jesus Christ in similar fashions, with the exception of Him being without SIN, the first PERFECT MAN, yet coming through the FLESH SEED of Adam and Eve. It is such a beautiful picture. For your daughter I would give you this comfort. It is a comfort that I have held for many many years. I am beyond certain that your daughter LOVED you, your family and other people. It is only HUMANS who can love in the smaller, Divine Sense, as it is a gift from God. Is it Perfect Love as God has? Not yet, but Love nevertheless. Few believers can accept it because of their inherent cognitive/confirmation biases. But I think you may accept it. If I didn't, I'd probably go insane with grief:

1 John 4:7
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

This is how I witness to Jesus Christ. I tell everyone I meet, EVERYONE, that God Is Love, and that those who LOVE already know God in this way, even if they don't know JESUS Is Gods Example of Perfect Divine Love. That you have already tasted of HEAVEN when you LOVE, and that Jesus Is that Love. You just didn't know Him before. But you do now.

It is powerfully effective. And a TRUE witness. His Love Leads everyone out of the condition of the natural man and into the HOPE of FREEDOM as the Second Man, the Man from Heaven, as part of His Body, Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[stovebolts]

Thank you smaller
It was well received.
As Cain polluted the land with the blood of Able, I believe the land is being healed by the blood of Christ.

 

[Jesse]

Had to split this post into 2:

These matters of Cain and Able and Adam and Eve might be generally known as the study of PROTOLOGY, the theological study of beginnings in the scriptures. You hit on an important matter when you saw that the work of Cain's hands was defiled, represented by the produce of his hands. In the allegorical senses, yes, the work of our hands is defiled because of sin. Hence the rejected offering. Even this points to the curse of Adam in the garden:

Genesis 3:
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee;

We could also observe from this matter with Jesus, that the 'ground' produces also, the TARE. These are personal spiritual engagements for us to observe. What God has set before all of us in the 'external [in creation perceived through the 5 senses, touch, taste, smell, sight, hearing] is a vast physical display of the INTERNAL spiritual issues with all mankind. It is not just the produce of the ground that is defiled, but our own bodies and minds, being born in spiritual blindness or death as some may term it, which is a result of the curse of the ground. In that case of humanity, that curse is SIN. And that curse is linked to the deceptions of Satan, the tempter. This will be a very hard line of reasoning to follow for many reasons because it remains a present reality to this day that people, particularly believers, have a hard time coming to grips with on many counts. We have all be preached to repeatedly since we were children perhaps if we attended church, that it was the choice of Adam and Eve to sin. It was not a choice. It never was a choice. None of us 'chose' not to sin nor do any of us 'choose' ourselves to be sinless. It can not be done! We are all and remain sinners, even after salvation.

Hey smaller,
I get sidetracked easy - lol - I also got stuck on one of your very first paragraphs above. This may take awhile. haha

Would you also be saying Adam and Eve were without free will? Would that be the same for us?

If I see a candy bar and want to steal it, can I prevent myself from taking it or do I have to take it because I an unable to "not sin"?

Trying to gather more detail from you. Thanks.