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Call No Man Father

GOD... Dont call anyone your father
Man... you can call us your father

So who do you listen to mungo? Quite simple really

If you love God more listen to him, if you love man more listen to them...
 
King Dan of Great the 1st said:
I understand calling a priest father because the church is family and a priest is like a father figure, but I think calling the Pope Holy Father and a representative of Christ on earth is a bit over the top. Are we all called to be Christlike and be the salt of the earth so everyone is Christ's representative.

It just seems like its A Holy Father in place of Christ on earth. That's one glorious status to have.

Im too humble to allow myself to have any status. I would never allow anyone to call me Holy Father even if I had children. Father maybe, but definitely not Holy Father that's a bit over the top.
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Did Christ ascend to heaven?
 
The RC church has so many errors in their belief system that it's hard to find the biblical truth. It's there in some churches anyway, but you have to get past so much nonsense and tradition that the truth is often lost in the process.
 
TheDeafMan said:
The RC church has so many errors in their belief system that it's hard to find the biblical truth. It's there in some churches anyway, but you have to get past so much nonsense and tradition that the truth is often lost in the process.
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This post breaks TOS 1.4.
Another infringement and you will be removed from the thread.
 
TheDeafMan said:
The RC church has so many errors in their belief system that it's hard to find the biblical truth. It's there in some churches anyway, but you have to get past so much nonsense and tradition that the truth is often lost in the process.
Click to expand...
Where in the Bible does it say that everything Christ did and taught, or everything we are to believe is restricted to the Bible. (read John 21:25, that says that not everything Christ did and taught is in the Bible. Yet Matt. 28:20 has Christ commanding the Apostles to teach all that He taught them. In fact, the New Testament wasn't decided until the late 4th century, when the Catholic Church went through over 300+ documents, praying to the Holy Spirit for guidance, and coming up with the 27 books we all agree on are the New Testament.

Christ didn't write a book to spread His truths, He founded a (one) Church, the Catholic Church, to do so. It would have been useless to found a Church based on a book, since the vast, vast majority of humanity was illiterate for the first 18+ centuries of Christianity. That would have effectively eliminated 95+% of humanity from learning Christ's message.

You might also review 2 Peter 1:20-21, where St. Peter warns against personal interpretation of Scripture.

Who says we have the right to decide these things? Christians must be taught:

Lk 1:4
Matt 28:19
Lk 10:16
Jn 20:21
Acts 8:31
Colossians 2:7

Truth must be revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles Jude 1:3) then must be proposed by the church, (Matt 28:19 gal 3:23) without error by the Holy Spirit! (Jn 16:13) one faith (eph 4:5) the faith delivered to the apostles (Jude 1:3)

Matt 16:18-19 shall not prevail against the one holy catholic and apostolic church founded by Christ!

Christ ascended yo heaven who did He appoint to administer His kingdom and teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation?


Thanks
 
TheDeafMan said:
The RC church has so many errors in their belief system that it's hard to find the biblical truth. It's there in some churches anyway, but you have to get past so much nonsense and tradition that the truth is often lost in the process.
Click to expand...
What doctrines?
 
Salvation is only through the RC church. (it's not)
No graven images. (10 commandments which I know RCs alter)
Perpetual virginity of Mary. (She wasn 't, she was a sinner as we all are and had other children)
Purgatory. (Doesn't exist, never has, it is a mis-application of Luke story of rich man)
Bible is only authority. (So, no man made traditions, apocroprpha.)
Peter as first Pope. (He wasn't, the rock refers to belief in Jesus, that belief)

I've been warned to stop the apologetics against RCs, so I may be dropped from this thread, so if no response, that's why.
 
TheDeafMan said:
Salvation is only through the RC church. (it's not)
No graven images. (10 commandments which I know RCs alter)
Perpetual virginity of Mary. (She wasn 't, she was a sinner as we all are and had other children)
Purgatory. (Doesn't exist, never has, it is a mis-application of Luke story of rich man)
Bible is only authority. (So, no man made traditions, apocroprpha.)
Peter as first Pope. (He wasn't, the rock refers to belief in Jesus, that belief)

I've been warned to stop the apologetics against RCs, so I may be dropped from this thread, so if no response, that's why.
Click to expand...
Do you have a list of the “Ten Commandments” from scripture please?
 
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

13 Thou shalt not kill.

14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

15 Thou shalt not steal.

16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
 
TheDeafMan said:
Salvation is only through the RC church. (it's not)
No graven images. (10 commandments which I know RCs alter)
Perpetual virginity of Mary. (She wasn 't, she was a sinner as we all are and had other children)
Purgatory. (Doesn't exist, never has, it is a mis-application of Luke story of rich man)
Bible is only authority. (So, no man made traditions, apocroprpha.)
Peter as first Pope. (He wasn't, the rock refers to belief in Jesus, that belief)

I've been warned to stop the apologetics against RCs, so I may be dropped from this thread, so if no response, that's why.
Click to expand...
It’s all good, you’re entitled to your beliefs and understanding of scripture
I’ll try to respond to you’re concerns
Thanks
 
No problem, and to clarify, I don't think all RCs are hell-bound. But, in all churches/denominations, there are some questionable doctrines, some important, some not. Those I mentioned, I think, are absolutely critical, that is, you get them wrong and hell is your destiny. Purgatory especially, there are no second chances. This life is all you get for salvation. At death, your destiny is set. That's why I encourage my RC friends (yes, I have some) to read the Bible for themselves rather than relying on what their minister/priest tells them. Eternity is a long time to be wrong and, If I were Catholic, I'd want to verify the scriptural truths rather that letting someone else determine my eternal fate. One friend says she doesn't read "anti-Catholic" literature. Well, ok, however, any belief system that is correct should be able to stand up to scrutiny and inspection. So I encourage you to read the Bible if you aren't and if you are, do so with a mind to see what it plainly says rather than what you've been brought up to believe. Which, of course, is my advice no matter what denomination you happen to be part of. And pray for God's guidance and illumination. Not to Mary or anyone else. I'd start with John then Romans. Adios.
 
TheDeafMan said:
Salvation is only through the RC church. (it's not)
No graven images. (10 commandments which I know RCs alter)
Perpetual virginity of Mary. (She wasn 't, she was a sinner as we all are and had other children)
Purgatory. (Doesn't exist, never has, it is a mis-application of Luke story of rich man)
Bible is only authority. (So, no man made traditions, apocroprpha.)
Peter as first Pope. (He wasn't, the rock refers to belief in Jesus, that belief)

I've been warned to stop the apologetics against RCs, so I may be dropped from this thread, so if no response, that's why.
Click to expand...

Mary a sinner?
How is that possible?

Jesus Christ is our salvation:
Not really not truth and doctrine to be believed, but also a sacrifice and sacrifice and in His person He is our salvation Lk 2:30 and our salvation is the fruit of Mary!

Biblical principle:

A good tree!

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

The fruit of the tree of Mary is our salvation! Matt 1:21 Lk 2:30 Jesus is our salvation! This reflects the immaculate conception of Mary and the miraculous conception of Jesus!
Lk 1:30 Mary found our salvation!
Lk 1:38 consented to our salvation!

A good tree (immaculate conception) Lk 1:49 God has done this and it is marvelous in our eyes!

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

A sinner would be an evil tree with evil fruit, but the fruit of Mary is salvation!

Mary brings in the good fruits of our redemption and salvation!

So Mary CANNOT be a sinner or a bad tree!

Mary’s throne is the throne of divine grace! Heb 4:16

Christ cannot take flesh and blood from a sinner!

The Holy Spirit cannot conceive in a sinner and the offspring be call holy, the son of God! Lk 1:35

Thanks
 
Bible proves that Mary most holy, ever virgin mother of God & mother of our salvation is not a sinner!

Lk 1:28 Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women.

How can God fill a sinner with grace, and remain a sinner?
Hail Mary full of grace!

How can the Lord be with a sinner?
The lord is with thee!

How can sinner be blessed!
Blessed art thou, and all generations shall call me blessed!

Lk 1: 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

How can a sinner be the mother of God?

Lk 1: 45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

How could sinner be faithful?

Lk 1: 46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

How could a sinner magnify the Lord?

Lk 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

How could sinner be humble?

Lk 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

How could sinner be the immaculate conception and the have the Holy Spirit accomplish the Miraculous conception of Jesus in Her?

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

How could sinner be a perpetual Virgin bringing forth the savior of the world?

Jn 2 how could Christ obey a sinner and perform a miracle in which his disciples believed in him?

Jn 19:27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

How could sinner be our spiritual mother?

Lk 2:30 I have seen my salvation!

How could a sinner be the mother of our salvation?
 
And Mary said:

“My soul magnifies the Lord,
47And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.

Why would a sinless person need a savior?
 
Scripture Says said:
GOD... Dont call anyone your father
Man... you can call us your father

So who do you listen to mungo? Quite simple really

If you love God more listen to him, if you love man more listen to them...
Click to expand...
Why does God call men father?
 
TheDeafMan said:
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

13 Thou shalt not kill.

14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

15 Thou shalt not steal.

16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Click to expand...
What’s this? I was looking for a Bible list of the Ten Commandments

First commandment:

Second commandment:

Third commandment:

Etc.

Thanks
 
TheDeafMan said:
No problem, and to clarify, I don't think all RCs are hell-bound. But, in all churches/denominations, there are some questionable doctrines, some important, some not. Those I mentioned, I think, are absolutely critical, that is, you get them wrong and hell is your destiny. Purgatory especially, there are no second chances. This life is all you get for salvation. At death, your destiny is set. That's why I encourage my RC friends (yes, I have some) to read the Bible for themselves rather than relying on what their minister/priest tells them. Eternity is a long time to be wrong and, If I were Catholic, I'd want to verify the scriptural truths rather that letting someone else determine my eternal fate. One friend says she doesn't read "anti-Catholic" literature. Well, ok, however, any belief system that is correct should be able to stand up to scrutiny and inspection. So I encourage you to read the Bible if you aren't and if you are, do so with a mind to see what it plainly says rather than what you've been brought up to believe. Which, of course, is my advice no matter what denomination you happen to be part of. And pray for God's guidance and illumination. Not to Mary or anyone else. I'd start with John then Romans. Adios.
Click to expand...
Ok let do purgatory first cos I see you have misconceptions and misunderstanding about it.

Don’t listen to the accusations like “salvation by the shilling”!

Only those who are already saved can go to purgatory!

Biblical Purgatory:

Psalm 66:12 (RSV) Thou didst let men ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water; yet thou hast brought us forth to a spacious place.

This verse was considered a proof of purgatory by Origen and St. Ambrose, who posits the water of baptism and the fire of purgatory.

Isaiah 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning. (cf. 1:25-26; 6:5-7; Ecc 12:14)

St. Augustine, in the 20th Book of his City of God, chapter 25, interprets this as purgatory. The preceding verse refers to the saved (“called holy” and “recorded for life”) and verses 5 and 6 describe the repose of the blessed.

Micah 7:9 I will bear the indignation of the Lord because I have sinned against him, until he pleads my cause and executes judgment for me. He will bring me forth to the light; I shall behold his deliverance. (cf. Lev 26:41, 43; Job 40:4-5; Lam 3:39)

St. Jerome considered this verse a clear proof of purgatory.

Malachi 3:3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD.

Origen, St. Irenaeus, St. Ambrose, St. Augustine, and St. Jerome all thought this was a description of purgatory.

2 Maccabees 12:44-45 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. [45] But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin. (cf. 1 Cor 15:29)

The Jews offered atonement and prayer for their deceased brethren, who had clearly violated Mosaic Law. Such a practice presupposes purgatory, since those in heaven wouldn’t need any help, and those in hell are beyond it.

Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, “You fool!” shall be liable to the hell of fire.

St. Francis de Sales commented:

It is only the third sort of offence which is punished with hell; therefore in the judgment of God after this life there are other pains which are not eternal or infernal, — these are the pains of Purgatory.

Matthew 5:26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

The “prison” alluded to in verse 25 is purgatory, according to Tertullian, St. Cyprian, Origen, St. Ambrose, and St. Jerome, while the “penny” represents the most minor sins that one commits.

Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

If this sin cannot be forgiven after death, it follows that there are others which can be, and this must be in purgatory: precisely the interpretation of St. Augustine, Pope St. Gregory the Great, the Venerable Bede, and St. Bernard, among others.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [12] Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – [13] each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. [14] If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. [15] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

This is a clear and obvious allusion to purgatory. Thus thought St. Cyprian, St. Ambrose, St. Jerome, Pope St. Gregory the Great, Origen, and St. Augustine, who wrote with his usual insight:

ecause it is said, he shall be saved, that fire is thought lightly of. For all that, though we should be saved by fire, yet will that fire be more grievous than anything that man can suffer in this life whatsoever. (Expositions on the Psalms, 38, 2)

Hebrews 12:14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. (cf. 12:1, 5-11, 15, 23, Eph 5:5; 1 Thess 4:3; 1 Jn 3:2-3)

Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman observed (as an Anglican):

Even supposing a man of unholy life were suffered to enter heaven, he would not be happy there; so that it would be no mercy to permit him to enter . . . There is a moral malady which disorders the inward sight and taste; and no man labouring under it is in a condition to enjoy what Scripture calls the fulness of joy in God’s presence, . . . (Sermon on this verse: “Holiness Necessary for Future Blessedness,” 1834)

Revelation 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practises abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

The abundance of scriptural evidence for purgatory led to a consensus among the Church fathers: summarized by Protestant church historian Philip Schaff:

These views of the middle state in connection with prayers for the dead show a strong tendency to the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. (History of the Christian Church, vol. 2, “Ante-Nicene Christianity: A. D. 100-325,” 5th edition, New York: 1889; ch. 12, sec. 156, 604-606)

Good thief promised paradise yet is still suffering the just punishment of His sins.

Lk 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Revelation 21:27
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.

6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:

7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

Matt 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

The children of Israel in bondage down in Egypt are a type of purgatory as the promised land is a type of heaven:

Isa 6:3 3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory!





Indulgences are one kind grace merited by the passion and blood of Christ, in the treasury of holy mother church dispenses to her children
Jn 1:16

They have nothing to do with sin or salvation, (mercy) upon true repentance but the punishment due to sin. (Justice)

Example
A father may forgive (mercy) his son for hitting a ball thru the window, but the son will have work and pay for the window. (Justice)

Indulgences we’re never sold, that was only an accusation, they were attached to a donation, the English Protestant statement “salvation by the shilling” was complete non-sense!

If we sin after baptism we must repent and confess and receive God’s mercy but then we must do penance to expiate the temporal punishment due to God’s justice for sin and if fail to do so in this life God provides a means to do so by suffering in purgatory, and the prayers and penances of living saints can give relief to those in purgatory.

Isa 6:3 3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory!

All those in the body of Christ the communion of saints share each other’s prayers and merits and Christ’s infinite merits

More questions are welcome
Thanks
 
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