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Call No Man Father

So then, what you are saying in essence is that we should ignore any and all religions that call them selves Bible Christians but deny the Bible and make up their own rules.

Do you really think that is a wise decision?

Are you aware that the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons claim to be Christians but they openly deny that Jesus is the Christ and is God in the flesh.

So from your comments, we should simply say nothing at all to try and educate them in what the Bible actually and literally says?
No, I would state what I stated not what you state on another unrelated matter. How did God in the flesh enter this discussion? I am aware of JW's and Mormons. I don't believe as they believe. Should one use the term pastor, bishop etc..?
I consider catholic as a christian religion. How they choose to call their overseers doesn't change my mind on that. I not going to war over that either.
 
Buzz words ?
As God heareth not sinners, (John 9:31), the first, and all false repentances, from sin, wasn't even acknowledged by God.
Jesus says “go and sin no more”!

He does not say “go for you are saved and it is impossible for you commit sin anymore”!
 
There are 12 foundations of the City of God, the New Jerusalem, noted in Rev which are named after the 12 Apostles of the Lord. The 12 sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. Clearly an office that exists beyond the life of the body. Only one abandoned that office. From scripture the 11 understood that one was to be replaced with another. They took it upon themselves and selected 2 Candidates prayed for the Lord to pick one and then cast lots. Though I note their motives were pure and they couldn't have known about Paul at that time they failed to wait for an answer from the Lord. Paul is/was God's choice, and he was already set aside from birth as in a choice already made by God.
How many now 14?

What does this have to with successors? Only twelve original apostles by they have thousands of successors
Matt 28:19 acts 1:8 requires it
 
So you are telling me that according to Matthew 23, we are to obey the Pharisees and follow their authority?

Do you want to re-think what you just said?

You posted "THEIR authority". The context of Matthew 23 was Jesus opposing the authority of the Pharisees and they were the "Their authority" you just said we MUST obey.
The successors of Moses Matt 23 had kingdom power and authority noted by the fact they could open and shut (keys) bind and loose

Jesus said that they must be obeyed

Jesus took this authority from them
Matt 21:43 and gave it to Peter and the apostles and their successors Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18
Lk 22:29 Jn 29:21-23 Matt 28:19

And they must be obeyed
 
The successors of Moses Matt 23 had kingdom power and authority noted by the fact they could open and shut (keys) bind and loose

Jesus said that they must be obeyed

Jesus took this authority from them
Matt 21:43 and gave it to Peter and the apostles and their successors Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18
Lk 22:29 Jn 29:21-23 Matt 28:19

And they must be obeyed
I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say.

Nothing said or done by Moses has anything to do with the church today which begs the question.....Are you that desperate????

In Matthew 23, The Pharisees presumed to take on Moses’ teaching authority.

Vs. 2 says......"The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses."

What does vs 3 say......., "but do not do as they do; for they say things and do not do them."

In vs 5-7 Jesus proceeded to identify more of these leaders’ practices that the crowds and His disciples should not copy.

The Greek word translated "phylacteries" (totapot, lit. "frontlets") occurs here only in the New Testament. It had pagan associations, and Jesus’ use of it here implied that the Jews were using these little boxes as good luck charms.
Source......[Note: Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, s.v. "phylactery," by J. Arthur Thompson, 4:786-87.]

Furthermore they made them big so other Jews would be sure to notice their "piety".

Sounds like croses with Jesus on them and statues of Mary and Joseph dosent it?
 
Brother........Would you please post the quote, and its number where I said I was an expert on the Catholic religion?
Well, you sure do speak as if you are.


I have only made BIBLE statements and then Catholic statemenst where they do not agree with those Bible statements. Is it not accetable to Catholic to be challenged on what they say they think the Bible says.
And I HAVE SHOWN you, with SCRIPTURE, that you're ideas about the Catholic denomination are incorrect.
YOU have not replied to my statements regarding such.
You posted a few paragraps from the CCC....
instead of replying to my explanation of them you continue to post stuff which is stating nothing.

You asked me...........
"Now,,,where in the NT does it state that we are NOT to do good works?"

THAT is an ambiguous question with no meaning. YOU knew before you asked it that THERE IS NO SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS SUCH A THING. It seems to me that you asked a "Got cha" position.

So for the answer......The Scriptures ACTUALLY say in James 2:17---
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

Right. The ONLY verse in scripture regarding FAITH ALONE is NEGATIVE.

FAITH ALONE is NOT biblical.

Now IYO, do you think that means we have to do works to be saved????
Yes.
And it's not that I think it Rodger...
it's that JESUS thinks it.

Do you not read the verses I post?
Do you not agree with them?
Then please exegete them for us and explain how Jesus does not mean what He is stating.

Of course it does not say that. It says that if we believe we have faith and are saved, then that faith in God will motivated us to do good works. Good works come from beingg a faith full believer in Christ and have nothing to do with salvation. Works are a product of salvation.

Oh. Nice.
And what if the works do not exist?
Are we STILL saved?


Now......since we have said this over and over and over, I have to ask you why you would ask me again????

THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH’S DOCTRINE OF SALVATION CAN BE SUMMARIZED AS FOLLOWS:

1. Rome teaches that Christ, having purchased redemption by His blood and death, delivered it to the Catholic Church to be distributed to men through her sacraments=WORKS.
That is in direct opposition to the words of Ephesians 2:8-9.

Now we're discussing sacraments?
When did the conversation change from works to sacraments?
A sacrament is a work?

So baptism is a work.
Communion is a work.
Ordination is a work.
Marriage is a work.
Healing is a work.
Confessing your sins is a work.

You can believe this if you like.
I don't believe sacraments are a work.
They're a blessing from God to show His love for us.

A person that adheres to sacraments is ALREADY SAVED.
Unsaved persons don't care to receive any sacrament.

And please don't go into infant baptism.
Do some church history first and then we'll talk.

Rome’s gospel centers in the Catholic Church, the pope, the priesthood, and the sacraments.= WORKS.

Vatican II Council:

“For ‘God’s only-begotten Son ... has won a treasure for the militant Church ... he has entrusted it to blessed Peter, the key-bearer of heaven, and to his successors who are Christ’s vicars on earth, SO THAT THEY MAY DISTRIBUTE IT TO THE FAITHFUL FOR THEIR SALVATION.

Is it not true that the seven sacraments of the RCC are The seven sacraments—Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Communion, Confession, Marriage, Holy Orders, and the Anointing of the Sick.

Now you can deny all that day long but it is what it is. I AM NOT A PRIEST! No one has to be one to understand that.
You understand nothing my friend.
what you posted above from Vatican II is regarding indulgences.

APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTION
OF POPE PAUL VI


INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINA


WHEREBY THE REVISION
OF SACRED INDULGENCES IS PROMULGATED

https://www.vatican.va/content/paul...-vi_apc_01011967_indulgentiarum-doctrina.html
You really do need to get your facts staright.
Even at the Council of Trent it was declared that by FAITH ONLY (not FAITH ALONE)...can man be saved.

This is from the Council of Trent:

Introduction

Since there is being disseminated at this time, not without the loss of many souls and grievous detriment to the unity of the Church, a certain erroneous doctrine concerning justification, the holy, ecumenical and general Council of Trent, lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the most reverend John Maria, Bishop of Praeneste de Monte, and Marcellus, priestof the Holy Cross in Jerusalem, cardinals of the holy Roman Church and legates Apostolic a latere, presiding in the name of our most holy Father and Lord in Christ, Paul III, by the providence of God, Pope, intends, for the praise and glory of Almighty God, for the tranquillity of the Church and the salvation of souls, to expound to all the faithful of Christ the true and salutary doctrine of justification, which the Sun of justice, Jesus Christ, the author and finisher of our faith taught, which the Apostles transmitted and which the Catholic Church under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost has always retained; strictly forbidding that anyone henceforth presume to believe, preach or teach otherwise than is defined and declared in the present decree.

CHAPTER I:
THE IMPOTENCY OF NATURE AND OF THE LAW TO JUSTIFY MAN
The holy council declares first, that for a correct and clear understanding of the doctrine of justification, it is necessary that each one recognize and confess that since all men had lost innocence in the prevarication of Adam,[3] having become unclean,[4] and, as the Apostle says, by nature children of wrath,[5] as has been set forth in the decree on original sin,[6] they were so far the servants of sin[7] and under the power of the devil and of death, that not only the Gentiles by the force of nature, but not even the Jews by the very letter of the law of Moses, were able to be liberated or to rise therefrom, though free will, weakened as it was in its powers and downward bent,[8] was by no means extinguished in them.
CHAPTER VIII:
HOW THE GRATUITOUS JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER BY FAITH IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD
But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely,[44] these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the Apostle says, grace is no more grace.


source: https://www.k-state.edu/english/baker/english233/Council_of_Trent6.htm



It would be good to know these things before declaring yourself an expert and posting incorrect Catholic theology.
 
No, I would state what I stated not what you state on another unrelated matter. How did God in the flesh enter this discussion? I am aware of JW's and Mormons. I don't believe as they believe. Should one use the term pastor, bishop etc..?
I consider catholic as a christian religion. How they choose to call their overseers doesn't change my mind on that. I not going to war over that either.
That is your right to have an opinion just as it is mine to do the same...right?

The idea of calling someone in a religious position of leadership as "Father" is the thread.

As I stated and do so again, that is not Biblical and it is a rebellion against the directions of the Lord Jesus.

And......you are of course welcome to call the Catholic religion Christian, however if you ask any well thinking Catholic they will tell you that they are NOT Biblical Christians.
 
You said......
"But if I'm replying to it it means that I get THE IMPRESSION that you're denying that GOOD WORKS/DEEDS are NECESSARY to be saved.

So I guess, then, that you agree with my statement here?

So since JESUS Himself said that good deeds/works are necessary for salvation,
then I guess that you DO AGREE?"


Allow me to say AGAIN, CLEARLY, and SIMPLY.....THERE IS NOT ONE SINGLE THING WE MUST DO TO BE SAVED OUTSIDE OF ACCEPTING JESUS CHRIST AS OUR SAVIOUR!.

Anything you think we MUST do......Baptised, take communion, be a church member or anything else is totally false!!!!

And.......Jesus never said, thought, taught or suggested that good deeds or good works are necessary for salvation.

I do not know who told you that but it is NOT Biblical in any way.

Now YOU will, and most Catholics will use Matthew 19:16 -17 to support their idea of good works are needed to be saved.

This verse suffers from a double dose of misinterpretation. Both major statements made here are frequently ripped from their contexts and applied in ways not intended by Scripture which I am sure that is what you intend to do.

Instead of Jesus saying that good works are needed to be saved, rather He is emphasizing that the point is a pursuit of goodness. Jesus insists there is only One who is good. That One is God. In a roundabout way, Jesus is asking the man, "are you calling me God?" Jesus, as God's Son, is one with Him. It is Jesus' goodness on which we must rely in order to be truly saved (John 3:36).

The significance of this question plays into the rest of this encounter. If Jesus is God, and the standard of goodness, then those who truly seek good will follow His instruction (John 14:15). Christ will demonstrate to this man that he cannot be good enough to have eternal life on his own. He will need to receive Jesus' goodness so he can have eternal life.

Continuing that same lesson, Jesus tells the man to keep the commandments in order to see salvation.

Do YOU understand the LITERAL words Jesus said here??????

In order to be saved Perfect goodness would be required to be saved based on our own efforts.

That means that YOU will have to keep every commandment your entire life without fail.

The purpose of this statement is to point out that the man's goodness is imperfect. In the end, the man's response shows that he is not, in fact, truly willing to follow God (Matthew 19:22).

Now, before you ask me, I am not saying that we should not keep and follow the commandments of God WE SHOULD. What I am saying is that YOU and ME can not keep the commanmenst of God in order to be saved.
Who said we could?
 
Well, you sure do speak as if you are.



And I HAVE SHOWN you, with SCRIPTURE, that you're ideas about the Catholic denomination are incorrect.
YOU have not replied to my statements regarding such.
You posted a few paragraps from the CCC....
instead of replying to my explanation of them you continue to post stuff which is stating nothing.



Right. The ONLY verse in scripture regarding FAITH ALONE is NEGATIVE.

FAITH ALONE is NOT biblical.


Yes.
And it's not that I think it Rodger...
it's that JESUS thinks it.

Do you not read the verses I post?
Do you not agree with them?
Then please exegete them for us and explain how Jesus does not mean what He is stating.



Oh. Nice.
And what if the works do not exist?
Are we STILL saved?




Now we're discussing sacraments?
When did the conversation change from works to sacraments?
A sacrament is a work?

So baptism is a work.
Communion is a work.
Ordination is a work.
Marriage is a work.
Healing is a work.
Confessing your sins is a work.

You can believe this if you like.
I don't believe sacraments are a work.
They're a blessing from God to show His love for us.

A person that adheres to sacraments is ALREADY SAVED.
Unsaved persons don't care to receive any sacrament.

And please don't go into infant baptism.
Do some church history first and then we'll talk.


You understand nothing my friend.
what you posted above from Vatican II is regarding indulgences.

APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTION
OF POPE PAUL VI


INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINA


WHEREBY THE REVISION
OF SACRED INDULGENCES IS PROMULGATED

https://www.vatican.va/content/paul...-vi_apc_01011967_indulgentiarum-doctrina.html
You really do need to get your facts staright.
Even at the Council of Trent it was declared that by FAITH ONLY (not FAITH ALONE)...can man be saved.

This is from the Council of Trent:

Introduction

Since there is being disseminated at this time, not without the loss of many souls and grievous detriment to the unity of the Church, a certain erroneous doctrine concerning justification, the holy, ecumenical and general Council of Trent, lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the most reverend John Maria, Bishop of Praeneste de Monte, and Marcellus, priestof the Holy Cross in Jerusalem, cardinals of the holy Roman Church and legates Apostolic a latere, presiding in the name of our most holy Father and Lord in Christ, Paul III, by the providence of God, Pope, intends, for the praise and glory of Almighty God, for the tranquillity of the Church and the salvation of souls, to expound to all the faithful of Christ the true and salutary doctrine of justification, which the Sun of justice, Jesus Christ, the author and finisher of our faith taught, which the Apostles transmitted and which the Catholic Church under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost has always retained; strictly forbidding that anyone henceforth presume to believe, preach or teach otherwise than is defined and declared in the present decree.

CHAPTER I:
THE IMPOTENCY OF NATURE AND OF THE LAW TO JUSTIFY MAN
The holy council declares first, that for a correct and clear understanding of the doctrine of justification, it is necessary that each one recognize and confess that since all men had lost innocence in the prevarication of Adam,[3] having become unclean,[4] and, as the Apostle says, by nature children of wrath,[5] as has been set forth in the decree on original sin,[6] they were so far the servants of sin[7] and under the power of the devil and of death, that not only the Gentiles by the force of nature, but not even the Jews by the very letter of the law of Moses, were able to be liberated or to rise therefrom, though free will, weakened as it was in its powers and downward bent,[8] was by no means extinguished in them.
CHAPTER VIII:
HOW THE GRATUITOUS JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER BY FAITH IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD
But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely,[44] these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the Apostle says, grace is no more grace.


source: https://www.k-state.edu/english/baker/english233/Council_of_Trent6.htm



It would be good to know these things before declaring yourself an expert and posting incorrect Catholic theology.
Again x 5. This is an overpowring of information and comments.

I will respond to your 1st comment of.......
"Well, you sure do speak as if you are.

And I HAVE SHOWN you, with SCRIPTURE, that you're ideas about the Catholic denomination are incorrect.
YOU have not replied to my statements regarding such.
You posted a few paragraps from the CCC....
instead of replying to my explanation of them you continue to post stuff which is stating nothing."


Please feel free to correct me, but you seem to be saying that only a Catholic Priest can comment or oppose the teachings of other religions that do not conform to Bible authority!

I do not feel comfortable posting my theological credentials that have given me the ability and knowledge to say the things I have posted. IF you choose to PM me I will be happy to accomadate you.

Now......Actuslly you or no one else has given or shown me any Scripture that says the Catholic church is Biblically correct and obedient to the Word of God as its authority...NONE! You have posted some Scriptures which you have misunderstood and believe that support what you have been told, BUT I HAVE AGAIN AND AGIN SHOWN YOU THAT THEY WERE INCORRECT.

I have in fact responded to ALL of your question except those that you have overpowed me with long posts of manucha.

If you would like a specific responce to a specific concern...please post that ONE concern.
Now the fact is that I have asked that about 5 times now.
 
Thanks.

In all honesty, we are not talking about priestly functions here. NO ONE has to be a Catholic priest in order to point out the differences in Catholic theology compared to Bible directions....Do they?
Some priests are also theologians.
Some are not and are really only pastors caring for their sheep.

I just want to say this and then this convo will have to end because it could go on forever and I just can't take this time since it's apparent that no good is coming from it.
Never the twain shall meet.
Unlike what Jesus wanted.....
FOR US TO BE ONE as HE IS ONE WITH GOD.

I'll tell you this,
Every paragraph in the CCC has biblical verses down at the bottom of each page from which information is gathered.
Every encyclical has verses in parenthasis (such as the one I prev sent just now).

The CC may be wrong about some doctrine, and I agree on this,

BUT IT CERTAINLY IS NOT WHAT gets us justified.

When you say works are not necessary to get us or keep us saved, you are cheapening Jesus' sacrifice.
He offered Himself, as He offered the bread at the Last Supper - to be broken for us -
so that Hades could be opened and those waiting for heaven could now be free to go there.
He sacrificed Himself as an atonement for all....
NOT so we could post on these forums and state that works are not necessary.

There's nowhere in the NT that states this because IT'S NOT TRUE.
No trick question Rodger. The NT states that works ARE NECESSARY.
Just read John 5:28 and then tell me they are not.

BE PERFECT AS YOUR FATHER IN HEAVEN IS PERFECT.
All this means is that we have a goal to keep.
Jesus knew we couldn't be perfect.

But where in that verse does it say that we can't be perfect and so we must do NOTHING since I guess we shouldn't even try?

You see, your theology gets every single verse all messed up.

Now, I'm going to have to leave and I think this will be our last conversation.

It does Christianity no good to state that anything besides belief is a work.
I know we have hypergrace movements that teach this.
But it's not what the NT teaches.
It's not what Jesus taught.
 
Again x 5. This is an overpowring of information and comments.

I will respond to your 1st comment of.......
"Well, you sure do speak as if you are.

And I HAVE SHOWN you, with SCRIPTURE, that you're ideas about the Catholic denomination are incorrect.
YOU have not replied to my statements regarding such.
You posted a few paragraps from the CCC....
instead of replying to my explanation of them you continue to post stuff which is stating nothing."


Please feel free to correct me, but you seem to be saying that only a Catholic Priest can comment or oppose the teachings of other religions that do not conform to Bible authority!

I do not feel comfortable posting my theological credentials that have given me the ability and knowledge to say the things I have posted. IF you choose to PM me I will be happy to accomadate you.

Now......Actuslly you or no one else has given or shown me any Scripture that says the Catholic church is Biblically correct and obedient to the Word of God as its authority...NONE! You have posted some Scriptures which you have misunderstood and believe that support what you have been told, BUT I HAVE AGAIN AND AGIN SHOWN YOU THAT THEY WERE INCORRECT.

I have in fact responded to ALL of your question except those that you have overpowed me with long posts of manucha.

If you would like a specific responce to a specific concern...please post that ONE concern.
Now the fact is that I have asked that about 5 times now.
OK
And I'll explain to you why I know so much....
We could play the who knows more game....

Except I won't.

Just please try to post what the CC teaches and not what YOU think it teaches.
 
YOU

You said.............
"But if I'm replying to it it means that I get THE IMPRESSION that you're denying that GOOD WORKS/DEEDS are NECESSARY to be saved.

So I guess, then, that you agree with my statement here?
I said we could keep every commandment of God?
Surely you're confusing me with another member here.
 
Well, you sure do speak as if you are.



And I HAVE SHOWN you, with SCRIPTURE, that you're ideas about the Catholic denomination are incorrect.
YOU have not replied to my statements regarding such.
You posted a few paragraps from the CCC....
instead of replying to my explanation of them you continue to post stuff which is stating nothing.



Right. The ONLY verse in scripture regarding FAITH ALONE is NEGATIVE.

FAITH ALONE is NOT biblical.


Yes.
And it's not that I think it Rodger...
it's that JESUS thinks it.

Do you not read the verses I post?
Do you not agree with them?
Then please exegete them for us and explain how Jesus does not mean what He is stating.



Oh. Nice.
And what if the works do not exist?
Are we STILL saved?




Now we're discussing sacraments?
When did the conversation change from works to sacraments?
A sacrament is a work?

So baptism is a work.
Communion is a work.
Ordination is a work.
Marriage is a work.
Healing is a work.
Confessing your sins is a work.

You can believe this if you like.
I don't believe sacraments are a work.
They're a blessing from God to show His love for us.

A person that adheres to sacraments is ALREADY SAVED.
Unsaved persons don't care to receive any sacrament.

And please don't go into infant baptism.
Do some church history first and then we'll talk.


You understand nothing my friend.
what you posted above from Vatican II is regarding indulgences.

APOSTOLIC CONSTITUTION
OF POPE PAUL VI


INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINA


WHEREBY THE REVISION
OF SACRED INDULGENCES IS PROMULGATED

https://www.vatican.va/content/paul...-vi_apc_01011967_indulgentiarum-doctrina.html
You really do need to get your facts staright.
Even at the Council of Trent it was declared that by FAITH ONLY (not FAITH ALONE)...can man be saved.

This is from the Council of Trent:

Introduction

Since there is being disseminated at this time, not without the loss of many souls and grievous detriment to the unity of the Church, a certain erroneous doctrine concerning justification, the holy, ecumenical and general Council of Trent, lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the most reverend John Maria, Bishop of Praeneste de Monte, and Marcellus, priestof the Holy Cross in Jerusalem, cardinals of the holy Roman Church and legates Apostolic a latere, presiding in the name of our most holy Father and Lord in Christ, Paul III, by the providence of God, Pope, intends, for the praise and glory of Almighty God, for the tranquillity of the Church and the salvation of souls, to expound to all the faithful of Christ the true and salutary doctrine of justification, which the Sun of justice, Jesus Christ, the author and finisher of our faith taught, which the Apostles transmitted and which the Catholic Church under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost has always retained; strictly forbidding that anyone henceforth presume to believe, preach or teach otherwise than is defined and declared in the present decree.

CHAPTER I:
THE IMPOTENCY OF NATURE AND OF THE LAW TO JUSTIFY MAN
The holy council declares first, that for a correct and clear understanding of the doctrine of justification, it is necessary that each one recognize and confess that since all men had lost innocence in the prevarication of Adam,[3] having become unclean,[4] and, as the Apostle says, by nature children of wrath,[5] as has been set forth in the decree on original sin,[6] they were so far the servants of sin[7] and under the power of the devil and of death, that not only the Gentiles by the force of nature, but not even the Jews by the very letter of the law of Moses, were able to be liberated or to rise therefrom, though free will, weakened as it was in its powers and downward bent,[8] was by no means extinguished in them.
CHAPTER VIII:
HOW THE GRATUITOUS JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER BY FAITH IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD
But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely,[44] these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the Apostle says, grace is no more grace.


source: https://www.k-state.edu/english/baker/english233/Council_of_Trent6.htm



It would be good to know these things before declaring yourself an expert and posting incorrect Catholic theology.
When and where and what post did I say I was a Catholic expert??????

You said..............
"A sacrament is a work?

So baptism is a work.
Communion is a work.
Ordination is a work.
Marriage is a work.
Healing is a work.
Confessing your sins is a work."

YES> The Catholic theology is that those things MUST BR DONE to be and stay saved.

Works is things WE DO. Do you not understand that all of the above is done by us!

Do you not read the literal words of Scripture in Ephesians 2:8-9........
"We are save by faith through grace and NOT OF OURSELVES least we boast".

I for the life of me do not grasp how that is so hard to understand. There is NOTHING we can do to be saved.
There is nothing we can do to stay saved!

However the RCC teaches i CCC 1113........
“The whole liturgical life of the Church revolves around the Eucharistic sacrifice and sacraments….Baptism, Confirmation or Chrismation, Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony”.

CCC 1129.....
“The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.


Now you and I can banter back and forth with this and that but I am posting the actual-literal words of the Catholic faith.

On the other hand, you are questioning my status as a Catholic priest in order to post what those literal words are that are found on ALL Catholic web sites.

Listen my friend......I am just a simple old country boy who had the blessing of being educated. By that reading of the Bible and learning what GOD SAID I was able to become a Bible believing Christian.
 
When and where and what post did I say I was a Catholic expert??????

You said..............
"A sacrament is a work?

So baptism is a work.
Communion is a work.
Ordination is a work.
Marriage is a work.
Healing is a work.
Confessing your sins is a work."

YES> The Catholic theology is that those things MUST BR DONE to be and stay saved.

Works is things WE DO. Do you not understand that all of the above is done by us!

Do you not read the literal words of Scripture in Ephesians 2:8-9........
"We are save by faith through grace and NOT OF OURSELVES least we boast".

I for the life of me do not grasp how that is so hard to understand. There is NOTHING we can do to be saved.
There is nothing we can do to stay saved!

However the RCC teaches i CCC 1113........
“The whole liturgical life of the Church revolves around the Eucharistic sacrifice and sacraments….Baptism, Confirmation or Chrismation, Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony”.

CCC 1129.....
“The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.


Now you and I can banter back and forth with this and that but I am posting the actual-literal words of the Catholic faith.

On the other hand, you are questioning my status as a Catholic priest in order to post what those literal words are that are found on ALL Catholic web sites.

Listen my friend......I am just a simple old country boy who had the blessing of being educated. By that reading of the Bible and learning what GOD SAID I was able to become a Bible believing Christian.
You're calling them WORKS
The CC calls them SACRAMENTS
and each one can be found in the NT.

Now...according to YOU:

IF we don't get married does that mean we're lost?
If we don't become a priest does that mean we're lost?
If we never get baptized does that mean we're lost? (read up on this in the CCC)
and so on....

What YOU call a work is NOT A WORK.

Anyway, Paul was speaking about THE LAW when he mentioned WORKS.
He didn't mean GOOD WORKS/DEEDS

His letters are full of exhortations to do good works/deeds...
and
I repeat
JESUS AGREED WITH PAUL!
LOL

Yes. Jesus agreed with Paul.

Funny.

And with this, our conversation iwill end.

The CCC, BTW, is not the best way to teach the Catholic faith,,,
but it's the best they've got.

Some of those paragraphs require a bit of explaining.
But it's clear enough.

Depends on whether you care to UNITE CHRISTIANS
or TEAR THEM APART.

God bless you Rodger.
 
OK
And I'll explain to you why I know so much....
We could play the who knows more game....

Except I won't.

Just please try to post what the CC teaches and not what YOU think it teaches.
You do not seem to grasp that what I have posted is exactly what the RCC teaches.

To suggest anything else is to say that I am manufacturing my facts from the back of my mind.

But I will gladly conform to your request. I have posted and do so again.........

CCC 1113........
“The whole liturgical life of the Church revolves around the Eucharistic sacrifice and sacraments….Baptism, Confirmation or Chrismation, Eucharist, Penance, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony”.

CCC 1129.....
“The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.

Is that what you wanted? Do those Catholic doctrines conform to Ephesians 2:8-9.

Will you please post for all of us the Bible Scriptures which say that our salvation is focused and contained in the Eucharist, baptism, confirmation, Penance, being married and Holy Orders.

Pray tell me, Why would the whole “life of the Church” (CCC 1113) revolve around rituals and ceremonies to receive grace?
Does the New Testament say that’s the primary task of the Church?
 
Brother........Would you please post the quote, and its number where I said I was an expert on the Catholic religion?

I have only made BIBLE statements and then Catholic statemenst where they do not agree with those Bible statements. Is it not accetable to Catholic to be challenged on what they say they think the Bible says.

You asked me...........
"Now,,,where in the NT does it state that we are NOT to do good works?"

THAT is an ambiguous question with no meaning. YOU knew before you asked it that THERE IS NO SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS SUCH A THING. It seems to me that you asked a "Got cha" position.

So for the answer......The Scriptures ACTUALLY say in James 2:17---
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

Now IYO, do you think that means we have to do works to be saved????

Of course it does not say that. It says that if we believe we have faith and are saved, then that faith in God will motivated us to do good works. Good works come from beingg a faith full believer in Christ and have nothing to do with salvation. Works are a product of salvation.

Now......since we have said this over and over and over, I have to ask you why you would ask me again????

THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH’S DOCTRINE OF SALVATION CAN BE SUMMARIZED AS FOLLOWS:

1. Rome teaches that Christ, having purchased redemption by His blood and death, delivered it to the Catholic Church to be distributed to men through her sacraments=WORKS.
That is in direct opposition to the words of Ephesians 2:8-9.

Rome’s gospel centers in the Catholic Church, the pope, the priesthood, and the sacraments.= WORKS.

Vatican II Council:

“For ‘God’s only-begotten Son ... has won a treasure for the militant Church ... he has entrusted it to blessed Peter, the key-bearer of heaven, and to his successors who are Christ’s vicars on earth, SO THAT THEY MAY DISTRIBUTE IT TO THE FAITHFUL FOR THEIR SALVATION.

Is it not true that the seven sacraments of the RCC are The seven sacraments—Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Communion, Confession, Marriage, Holy Orders, and the Anointing of the Sick.

Now you can deny all that day long but it is what it is. I AM NOT A PRIEST! No one has to be one to understand that.
Does salvation only require one teeny tiny little bitty act of faith and one tiny bit of grace?

Matt 13 parable of the sower?
They all had faith are they all saved?

Belief is salvation?

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Do good, now salvation Matt 25

Narrow road “leads” to life!

Jn 5:29 good works unto salvation

Matt 25:28
Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Had the grace of God and lost it!

D for dogma catholic and divine faith

D 133. Grace can be increased by good works.

Grace requires works to bear fruit
Matt 21:43
Jn 15:4
 
You're calling them WORKS
The CC calls them SACRAMENTS
and each one can be found in the NT.

Now...according to YOU:

IF we don't get married does that mean we're lost?
If we don't become a priest does that mean we're lost?
If we never get baptized does that mean we're lost? (read up on this in the CCC)
and so on....

What YOU call a work is NOT A WORK.

Anyway, Paul was speaking about THE LAW when he mentioned WORKS.
He didn't mean GOOD WORKS/DEEDS

His letters are full of exhortations to do good works/deeds...
and
I repeat
JESUS AGREED WITH PAUL!
LOL

Yes. Jesus agreed with Paul.

Funny.

And with this, our conversation iwill end.

The CCC, BTW, is not the best way to teach the Catholic faith,,,
but it's the best they've got.

Some of those paragraphs require a bit of explaining.
But it's clear enough.

Depends on whether you care to UNITE CHRISTIANS
or TEAR THEM APART.

God bless you Rodger.
Or.....it may depend on what we call truth and what we call false.

Jesus actually said, "You sahll know the truth and the truth shale set you free".

You said.............
"And with this, our conversation iwill end.

The CCC, BTW, is not the best way to teach the Catholic faith,,,
but it's the best they've got."

Now allow me to tell you ironony of your comments.
In post #792 you challenged by saying...........
"Just please try to post what the CC teaches and not what YOU think it teaches."

I did exacly that by posting the CCC's numbers and literal words and your responce to that was....
"And with this, our conversation iwill end.

The CCC, BTW, is not the best way to teach the Catholic faith,,,

but it's the best they've got."

If the CCC is not the best way to teach the Catholic faith, and by any Catholic's own admission they do not follow the Bible, then what is the way to teach the Catholic faith?

With that I repsect your position and desire to end this and I bid you farewell in Jesus name.
 
Does salvation only require one teeny tiny little bitty act of faith and one tiny bit of grace?

Matt 13 parable of the sower?
They all had faith are they all saved?

Belief is salvation?

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Do good, now salvation Matt 25

Narrow road “leads” to life!

Jn 5:29 good works unto salvation

Matt 25:28
Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Had the grace of God and lost it!

D for dogma catholic and divine faith

D 133. Grace can be increased by good works.

Grace requires works to bear fruit
Matt 21:43
Jn 15:4
YES. That is exactly what the Bible says my friend and thnaks for asking that question.

Faith is a gift from God.

Salvation by grace through faith is at the heart of the Christian religion. “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast” (Ephesians 2:8–9). The statement has three parts— salvation, grace, and faith—and they are equally important. The three together constitute a basic tenet of Christianity.

The word salvation is defined as “the act of being delivered, redeemed, or rescued.”
The Bible tells us that, since the fall of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, each person is born in sin inherited from Adam: “Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned” (Romans 5:12).

Sin is what causes all of us to die. Sin separates us from God, and sin destines each person to eternal separation from Him in hell. What each of us needs is to be delivered from that fate. In other words, we need salvation from sin and its penalty.

How are we saved from sin?
Most religions throughout history have taught that salvation is achieved by good works. Others teach that acts of contrition (saying we are sorry) along with living a moral life is the way to atone for our sin. Sorrow over sin is certainly valuable and necessary, but that alone will not save us from sin. We may repent of our sins, also valuable and necessary, and determine to never sin again, but salvation is not the result of good intentions. The road to hell, as the saying goes, is paved with good intentions. We may fill our lives with good works, but even one sin makes us a sinner in practice, and we are already sinners by nature. No matter how well-intentioned or “good” we may be, the fact is that we simply do not have the power or the goodness to overcome the sin nature we have inherited from Adam. We need something more powerful, and this is where grace comes in.

The grace of God is His undeserved favor bestowed on those He has called to salvation through His love (Ephesians 2:4–5). It is His grace that saves us from sin. We are “justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus” (Romans 3:24).

Being justified, we are vindicated and determined to be sinless in the eyes of God. Our sin no longer separates us from Him and no longer sentences us to hell. Grace is not earned by any effort on our part; otherwise, it could not be called grace. Grace is free. If our good works earned salvation, then God would be obligated to pay us our due. But no one can earn heaven, and God’s blessings are not His obligation; they flow from His goodness and love. No matter how diligently we pursue works to earn God’s favor, we will fail. Our sin trips us up every time. “By the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight” (Romans 3:20, NKJV).

The means God has chosen to bestow His grace upon us is through faith. “Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see” (Hebrews 11:1). Salvation is obtained by faith in God’s Son, Jesus Christ, in what He has done—specifically, His death on the cross and His resurrection. But even faith is not something we generate on our own. Faith, as well as grace, is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8). He bestows saving faith and saving grace upon us in order to redeem us from sin and deliver us from its consequences. So God saves us by His grace through the faith He gives us. Both grace and faith are gifts. “Salvation belongs to the LORD” (Psalm 3:8, ESV).

By grace, we receive the faith that enables us to believe that He has sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to die on the cross and provide the salvation we cannot achieve on our own. Jesus, as God in flesh, is the “author and perfecter of our faith” (Hebrews 12:2). Just like the author of a book creates it from scratch, Jesus Christ wrote the story of our redemption from beginning to end. “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves” (Ephesians 1:4–6). The Lord died for our sins and rose for our justification, and He forgives, freely and fully, those who accept His gift of grace in Christ—and that acceptance comes through faith. This is the meaning of salvation by grace through faith.
 
Does salvation only require one teeny tiny little bitty act of faith and one tiny bit of grace?

Matt 13 parable of the sower?
They all had faith are they all saved?

Belief is salvation?

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Do good, now salvation Matt 25

Narrow road “leads” to life!

Jn 5:29 good works unto salvation

Matt 25:28
Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Had the grace of God and lost it!

D for dogma catholic and divine faith

D 133. Grace can be increased by good works.

Grace requires works to bear fruit
Matt 21:43
Jn 15:4
CCC 1129.....
“The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.

Is that what you wanted? Do those Catholic doctrines conform to Ephesians 2:8-9.

Will you please post for all of us the Bible Scriptures which say that our salvation is focused and contained in the Eucharist, baptism, confirmation, Penance, being married and Holy Orders.

Pray tell me, Why would the whole “life of the Church” (CCC 1113) revolve around rituals and ceremonies to receive grace?
Does the New Testament say that’s the primary task of the Church?
 
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