Call No Man Father

[Rodger]

The verse I quoted from John 9:31 applies to me too.

John is addressing those who do not walk in the light, in verses 6, 8, and 10.
They cannot say they have fellowship with God or that they have no sin, or that they have never sinned.
From 1 John 2:3-6, we also know those who walk in darkness cannot say they know God.

I do believe them.
I also know who they are written about.
Sinners cannot walk in the light, because the light is God; and there is no sin in God.
Those walking in God, can say they have no sin.

If one sins, they are not free from death or the sin's consequences.

If we do as Paul taught in Rom 6:6, we can destroy the flesh.
If we do as Paul taught in Rom 6:3-4, we can crucify the old man and be raised from the grave, with Christ, to walk in newness of life.
Gal 5:24..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

You've misinterpreted Rom. 7.
As there is no sin in Christ, or in His Father, no sinner is in Christ.

Better read Matt 7:22-23..."Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Yes sir, I have preached Matthew 7:22-23 many many times.

It is amazing to me that YOU would point those Scriptures toward me as YOU by your own admission are sinless. YOU have just committed the sin of self-righteousness. That is exactly the CONTEXT of the Scriptures you posted.

The CONTEXT is In Matthew 7:15-20 where Jesus warned about the danger of false prophets that lead many astray. They are dangerous because if you believe their lies, they will change you internally. They can affect who you really are and your eternal destiny. They come and deceive by presenting falsehood as the truth. Jesus gave warning about them because they do not appear as the wolves they really are, but as friends of the flock. They come wearing sheep’s clothing, the garments of the shepherd.

If you will read the Sermon on the Mt., you will understand that throughout it, Jesus was presenting the nature of true righteousness as compared with the self righteousness seen in the Scribes and Pharisees of that time.
The hypocrisy of self righteousness is seen in its condemnation of others because they do not do what they do, think as they do yet their own sin is greater.

Think about that my friend.

 

[Rodger]

Your welcomed, I'm sure.

Ditto to all of the above....

You also, Rodger, accept what makes sense to YOU.
Do YOU have the ability and authorization to change what God said?
Do you KNOW what God said?

I'll tell you this:
Catholicism has its problems.

But Protestantism has more, as I'm coming to believe more and more.

The very big problem with Protestantism is that every single person gets to decide what the NT teaches....
what THEY believe to be correct or incorrect doctrine....what makes sense to them.

Each person gets to have their very own truth....they get to CHOOSE what that truth is.
This means that in Protestantism THERE IS NO TRUTH.
Since there can only be ONE TRUTH.
And You will not agree with nor accept the truth of other protestants on this very forum.

And that, Rodger, is a fact you cannot deny.

I have the ability to read the Scriptures. I have had the ability to grow, learn and study what God actually said.
I certainly agree that the Protestant church has its problems. That is because it consists of sinners.

But to think it has more that the Catholic church is absurd. The Protestant church works to follow the directions of God's Word. The Catholic church by its own admission thinks more of its traditions, made up by sinners than it does the Word of God.

I believe that your interpretation of the Protestant faith is flaws and biased.

You are saying that I do not have the ability to read the Word of God, pray to God, study HIs directions and Understand those things.......that I need a Man (Pope) or a group of people to do those things and then explain to me what THEY think God meant to say.

I do not expect you to agree with that statement, but that is exactly what you are saying!!

Truth my dear brother is not what I think it is or the Pope or the Church says it is. TRUTH is what God says it is.

John 17:17..........
" Sanctify them by[ a] the truth; your word is truth."

You said..........
"And You will not agree with nor accept the truth of other protestants on this very forum."

When anyone, Protestant, Catholic, Mormon, JW....does not matter who, says things that are not Biblical, then YES, absolutly I will and have disagreed with them.

 

[Rodger]

Hi Corn Pop
I made 2 babies.
They didn't feel like individual human beings.
They felt like a part of me.

If God had His baby through the intervention of NO MAN....
Because He wanted that baby to be divine and PURE and sans a SIN NATURE...

It makes perfectly good sense to me and to the church fathers, who had bigger brains than neither you nor I,
to believe that the WOMAN who was going to carry God's baby and keep Him in HER BODY for 9 months
would also be sans the sin nature by preference.

This is called the Immaculate Conception.

And THAT is not Biblical. It is YOUR common sense, your thinks, your Catholic teaching, but it is not found anywhere in the Bible.

In fact, just the opposite is found in the Word of God. "ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God"....does not have in parenthesis (Except Mary).

YOU said that Mary giving birth to Jesus who was God, makes perfect since that she then would be sinless as was He.

Now.....if we accept that kind of theological and senseless thinking, then if YOU stand in your garage, I can call you a car.

As an ordinary part of the human race, born into the world the ordinary way, Mary was not without sin. Romans 3:23 teaches that all have sinned and fall short of God’s glory, and there is nothing in the Bible to suggest that Mary was an exception to this rule. The apostle John wrote, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us” (1 John 1:8–10). The “we” in this passage includes Mary, the mother of Jesus. To claim Mary is without sin is an example of “deceit.”

Shall we be up front and totally honest here?????

The ONLY reason this is brought up and discussed and believed by Catholics, is To help bolster their teaching that Mary was sinless.

Again, FACTS, the Roman Catholic Church invented the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception (formally accepted as Catholic dogma in 1854). According to this false teaching, Mary was, from her very conception in her mother’s womb, “preserved free from all stain of original sin.”

That is, Mary had no sinful nature. This doctrine is neither biblical nor necessary. The virgin-born Christ Jesus was free from the stain of original sin, but it was not necessary for His mother to be—or His grandmother—or His great-grandmother, etc.

Now you talk about "MAKES SENSE".

So just think instead of accepting teachings from men. How far back would we have to go to insure Jesus’ perfection, if it were necessary for Mary to be sinless? Did the mother of Mary somehow become sinless for here to produce a child with NO sin??? What about her parents?

Are you going to tell me that you have never considered this fact???????

Abraham???? David? Jesse. Obed? Rahab? Is there any suggestion that all of those individuals were without sin. Do you know of any sin that David did not committ????

 

[Rodger]

Were Abraham, Issac and Jacob baptized into Christ? Yet their noted by the Lord in the resurrection of us all on the last day. One cannot be raised up on the last day apart from the one who raises us up that's for sure.

I believe we do know as an infant is blameless and Jesus judges by His righteousness and when He healed on the sabbath and was accused of breaking Gods command He stated to them "stop judging by mere appearances and make a righteous judgment"

But at the very least you could state they are neither saved nor condemned but their souls will come before the Lord for judgment, and He will make a judgment concerning them.

Good point, but better than that, The rite of baptism is a physical depiction of a new believer’s old life being buried with the Lord and then raised to walk in newness of life. Jesus died, was buried, and resurrected, and the Christian identifies with Jesus by being fully immersed into the water (symbolizing death) and then being lifted out of the water to live a new life now and, one day, to live in a glorified new body in the eternal state.

That was impossible for anyone to do in the Old Test.

The physical practice of baptism is not found in the Old Testament,

 

[Randy]

Good point, but better than that, The rite of baptism is a physical depiction of a new believer’s old life being buried with the Lord and then raised to walk in newness of life. Jesus died, was buried, and resurrected, and the Christian identifies with Jesus by being fully immersed into the water (symbolizing death) and then being lifted out of the water to live a new life now and, one day, to live in a glorified new body in the eternal state.

That was impossible for anyone to do in the Old Test.

The physical practice of baptism is not found in the Old Testament,

Yet Jesus redeemed them anyway as He judges.
Col 1:20
... through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yes sir, I have preached Matthew 7:22-23 many many times.
It is amazing to me that YOU would point those Scriptures toward me as YOU by your own admission are sinless.

You stated..."According the Word of God, I am free from the penalty of sin."...even though your words lead me to believe you still commit sin.
Sinners will get exactly what they have coming on the day of judgement.
The only way to be free from the penalty for sin is to stop committing sin !

YOU have just committed the sin of self-righteousness. That is exactly the CONTEXT of the Scriptures you posted.

It isn't my righteousness that I proclaim, it is God's righteousness.
It is written..."For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)
In Him, I have His righteousness.
In Him, is no sin !
No sinners are 'in Him'.

The CONTEXT is In Matthew 7:15-20 where Jesus warned about the danger of false prophets that lead many astray. They are dangerous because if you believe their lies, they will change you internally. They can affect who you really are and your eternal destiny. They come and deceive by presenting falsehood as the truth. Jesus gave warning about them because they do not appear as the wolves they really are, but as friends of the flock. They come wearing sheep’s clothing, the garments of the shepherd.

Jesus said we can tell the false prophets by their fruit.
I dispense the words of truth and obedience to God.
Is that not good fruit ?

If you will read the Sermon on the Mt., you will understand that throughout it, Jesus was presenting the nature of true righteousness as compared with the self righteousness seen in the Scribes and Pharisees of that time.
The hypocrisy of self righteousness is seen in its condemnation of others because they do not do what they do, think as they do yet their own sin is greater.
Think about that my friend.

You can't see the forest, for the trees !
Jesus is telling them how to live !
In Matt 5:48 He concludes with the commandment to be as perfect as God is perfect !
Obey, and live for ever !

 

[GodsGrace]

I have the ability to read the Scriptures. I have had the ability to grow, learn and study what God actually said.
I certainly agree that the Protestant church has its problems. That is because it consists of sinners.

But to think it has more that the Catholic church is absurd. The Protestant church works to follow the directions of God's Word. The Catholic church by its own admission thinks more of its traditions, made up by sinners than it does the Word of God.

I believe that your interpretation of the Protestant faith is flaws and biased.

You are saying that I do not have the ability to read the Word of God, pray to God, study HIs directions and Understand those things.......that I need a Man (Pope) or a group of people to do those things and then explain to me what THEY think God meant to say.

I do not expect you to agree with that statement, but that is exactly what you are saying!!

Truth my dear brother is not what I think it is or the Pope or the Church says it is. TRUTH is what God says it is.

John 17:17..........
" Sanctify them by[ a] the truth; your word is truth."

You said..........
"And You will not agree with nor accept the truth of other protestants on this very forum."

When anyone, Protestant, Catholic, Mormon, JW....does not matter who, says things that are not Biblical, then YES, absolutly I will and have disagreed with them.

I'm going to repeat what I said because I think it's VERY IMPORTANT.

If two persons present you with two truths...IT MEANS THERE IS NO TRUTH.

You happen to believe in OSAS, if I remember correctly. I apologize if I'm wrong, but I'll use this as an example anyway.

OSAS is NOWHERE TO BE FOUND in the NT.

So one Protestant believes salvation can be forfeited
And another Protestant believes it cannot.

Who's right?
It CANNOT BE BOTH.

The reformation was necessary.
But look at what it has produced.
Thousands of denominations if we count the independents.
This is crazy!

This is NOT what Jesus wanted....
He wanted us to be united just as He and our Father are united. JOHN 1:17

1 Corinthians 1:10
I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

1 Peter 3:8
Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind.

Philippians 2:2
Complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.

2 Corinthians 3:11
Finally, brothers, rejoice. Aim for restoration, comfort one another, agree with one another, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.

And, many more such verses.
You cannot deny that there is discord within Protestantism that does not exist in the CC.

It's NECESSARY that theologians use hermeneutics to read the bible and to explain what it's saying.
God can speak to each one of us individually,,,,
BUT THIS DOES NOT CREATE DOCTRINE.

My interpretation of the Protestant denominations may seem flawed to you,
except that I happen to be Protestant of Nazarene and Assembly of God training and I KNOW what the problems are within Protestantism,,,just as I happen to know the problems that exist within the CC,

but this I can assure you.....the problems are not what the CC teaches.
A denominations can teach WHATEVER IT DEEMS CORRECT TO TEACH,,,, just as all our denominations do.

The CC has other problems but doctrine is not one of them....even though I personally do not agree with all of their doctrine or I'd be Catholic, I guess.

Keep this under your hat Rodger:

THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE TRUTH.
Not two or more.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I'm going to repeat what I said because I think it's VERY IMPORTANT.

If two persons present you with two truths...IT MEANS THERE IS NO TRUTH.

You happen to believe in OSAS, if I remember correctly. I apologize if I'm wrong, but I'll use this as an example anyway.

OSAS is NOWHERE TO BE FOUND in the NT.

So one Protestant believes salvation can be forfeited
And another Protestant believes it cannot.

Who's right?
It CANNOT BE BOTH.

The reformation was necessary.
But look at what it has produced.
Thousands of denominations if we count the independents.
This is crazy!

This is NOT what Jesus wanted....
He wanted us to be united just as He and our Father are united. JOHN 1:17

1 Corinthians 1:10
I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

1 Peter 3:8
Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind.

Philippians 2:2
Complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.

2 Corinthians 3:11
Finally, brothers, rejoice. Aim for restoration, comfort one another, agree with one another, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.

And, many more such verses.
You cannot deny that there is discord within Protestantism that does not exist in the CC.

It's NECESSARY that theologians use hermeneutics to read the bible and to explain what it's saying.
God can speak to each one of us individually,,,,
BUT THIS DOES NOT CREATE DOCTRINE.

My interpretation of the Protestant denominations may seem flawed to you,
except that I happen to be Protestant of Nazarene and Assembly of God training and I KNOW what the problems are within Protestantism,,,just as I happen to know the problems that exist within the CC,

but this I can assure you.....the problems are not what the CC teaches.
A denominations can teach WHATEVER IT DEEMS CORRECT TO TEACH,,,, just as all our denominations do.

The CC has other problems but doctrine is not one of them....even though I personally do not agree with all of their doctrine or I'd be Catholic, I guess.

Keep this under your hat Rodger:

THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE TRUTH.
Not two or more.

...and the truth shall make you free....from service to sin. (John 8:32-34)

 

[GodsGrace]

And THAT is not Biblical. It is YOUR common sense, your thinks, your Catholic teaching, but it is not found anywhere in the Bible.

In fact, just the opposite is found in the Word of God. "ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God"....does not have in parenthesis (Except Mary).

YOU said that Mary giving birth to Jesus who was God, makes perfect since that she then would be sinless as was He.

Now.....if we accept that kind of theological and senseless thinking, then if YOU stand in your garage, I can call you a car.

As an ordinary part of the human race, born into the world the ordinary way, Mary was not without sin. Romans 3:23 teaches that all have sinned and fall short of God’s glory, and there is nothing in the Bible to suggest that Mary was an exception to this rule. The apostle John wrote, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us” (1 John 1:8–10). The “we” in this passage includes Mary, the mother of Jesus. To claim Mary is without sin is an example of “deceit.”

Shall we be up front and totally honest here?????

The ONLY reason this is brought up and discussed and believed by Catholics, is To help bolster their teaching that Mary was sinless.

Again, FACTS, the Roman Catholic Church invented the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception (formally accepted as Catholic dogma in 1854). According to this false teaching, Mary was, from her very conception in her mother’s womb, “preserved free from all stain of original sin.”

That is, Mary had no sinful nature. This doctrine is neither biblical nor necessary. The virgin-born Christ Jesus was free from the stain of original sin, but it was not necessary for His mother to be—or His grandmother—or His great-grandmother, etc.

Now you talk about "MAKES SENSE".

So just think instead of accepting teachings from men. How far back would we have to go to insure Jesus’ perfection, if it were necessary for Mary to be sinless? Did the mother of Mary somehow become sinless for here to produce a child with NO sin??? What about her parents?

Are you going to tell me that you have never considered this fact???????

Abraham???? David? Jesse. Obed? Rahab? Is there any suggestion that all of those individuals were without sin. Do you know of any sin that David did not committ????

The above is pure nonsense and I will not reply to it.

I think you said the Immaculate Conception was thought up in 1884?
And, BTW, did you know that Mary gave birth with no pain?

And you keep bringing up Romans....all have sinned and fall short...
Right.
Even the MOTHER OF GOD?
Just some food for thought.

Now, did you know that the APOSTELS that stayed with Jesus and learned from Him for over 3 years, went on to teach other men?

Seems like some Protestants think the history of the church of Jesus died with the last Apostle...
but, alas, it did not. Let see what those taught by the Apostles believed - and those taught by them- etc.


“[T]he report concerning the child was noised abroad in Bethlehem. Some said, ‘The Virgin Mary has given birth before she was married two months.’ And many said, ‘She has not given birth; the midwife has not gone up to her, and we heard no cries of pain’” (Ascension of Isaiah 11 [A.D. 70]).

“So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will . . . ” (Odes of Solomon 19 [A.D. 80]).

“[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied ‘Be it done unto me according to your word’ [Luke 1:38]” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 100 [A.D. 155]).

“Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, ‘Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.’ Eve, however, was disobedient, and, when yet a virgin, she did not obey. Just as she, who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband—for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children, and it was necessary that they first come to maturity before beginning to multiply—having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith” (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).

“You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is no blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?” (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A.D. 361]).

---

AMBROSE OF MILAN​

“Mary’s life should be for you a pictorial image of virginity. Her life is like a mirror reflecting the face of chastity and the form of virtue. Therein you may find a model for your own life . . . showing what to improve, what to imitate, what to hold fast to” (The Virgins 2:2:6 [A.D. 377]).

But, as appears, many even down to our own time regard Mary, on account of the birth of her child, as having been in the puerperal state, although she was not. For some say that, after she brought forth, she was found, when examined, to be a virgin.
Clement of Alexandria 203AD


— Sinlessness; incorruptibility; Mother of God —
1 [The prophets] preached of the advent of God in the flesh to the world, His advent by the spotless and God-bearing Mary.
ca. 215 A.D., Saint Hippolytus of Rome, Bishop of Pontus, disciple of Irenaeus of Lyons, Discourse On the End of the World


There's a lot more, but why bother to read what the Early Christians believed about Mary?
Better to stay uninformed.

 

[GodsGrace]

...and the truth shall make you free....from service to sin. (John 8:32-34)

I can agree with you as to free FROM SERVICE TO SIN.

I cringe at what some Christians write.

 

[Rodger]

The above is pure nonsense and I will not reply to it.

I think you said the Immaculate Conception was thought up in 1884?
And, BTW, did you know that Mary gave birth with no pain?

And you keep bringing up Romans....all have sinned and fall short...
Right.
Even the MOTHER OF GOD?
Just some food for thought.

Now, did you know that the APOSTELS that stayed with Jesus and learned from Him for over 3 years, went on to teach other men?

Seems like some Protestants think the history of the church of Jesus died with the last Apostle...
but, alas, it did not. Let see what those taught by the Apostles believed - and those taught by them- etc.


“[T]he report concerning the child was noised abroad in Bethlehem. Some said, ‘The Virgin Mary has given birth before she was married two months.’ And many said, ‘She has not given birth; the midwife has not gone up to her, and we heard no cries of pain’” (Ascension of Isaiah 11 [A.D. 70]).

“So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will . . . ” (Odes of Solomon 19 [A.D. 80]).

“[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied ‘Be it done unto me according to your word’ [Luke 1:38]” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 100 [A.D. 155]).

“Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, ‘Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.’ Eve, however, was disobedient, and, when yet a virgin, she did not obey. Just as she, who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband—for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children, and it was necessary that they first come to maturity before beginning to multiply—having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith” (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).

“You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is no blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?” (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A.D. 361]).

---

AMBROSE OF MILAN​

“Mary’s life should be for you a pictorial image of virginity. Her life is like a mirror reflecting the face of chastity and the form of virtue. Therein you may find a model for your own life . . . showing what to improve, what to imitate, what to hold fast to” (The Virgins 2:2:6 [A.D. 377]).

But, as appears, many even down to our own time regard Mary, on account of the birth of her child, as having been in the puerperal state, although she was not. For some say that, after she brought forth, she was found, when examined, to be a virgin.
Clement of Alexandria 203AD


— Sinlessness; incorruptibility; Mother of God —
1 [The prophets] preached of the advent of God in the flesh to the world, His advent by the spotless and God-bearing Mary.
ca. 215 A.D., Saint Hippolytus of Rome, Bishop of Pontus, disciple of Irenaeus of Lyons, Discourse On the End of the World


There's a lot more, but why bother to read what the Early Christians believed about Mary?
Better to stay uninformed.

Utter Nonsense. There is NO evidence, either Biblically or eyewitnesses or even a suggested rumor that Mary did not have pain in childbirth.

I br9ing up Romans because it is the Word of God. The better questions is WHY do you reject the Bible? By rejecting the Word of God and accepting the words of men YOU my dear are calling God a liar! Good luck with that.

This is the kind of unfounded and unbelievable stuff that has ruined Christianity over the years.

All of christianity know that it was the "Disciples" who worked, listed, and were taught by Jesus for 3 and 1/2 years. They only became the "Apostles" when He died.

And YES......the office of Apostle ended when John died, not because I as a Protestant said so but because God said so and that just drives all Catholic crazy!

I am sure you have never read this Scripture, and if you have you do not understand it but in 1 Corinthians you will find the answer........
" Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

 

[Rodger]

I can agree with you as to free FROM SERVICE TO SIN.

I cringe at what some Christians write.

Amen sister.......Amen!

 

[Rodger]

I'm going to repeat what I said because I think it's VERY IMPORTANT.

If two persons present you with two truths...IT MEANS THERE IS NO TRUTH.

You happen to believe in OSAS, if I remember correctly. I apologize if I'm wrong, but I'll use this as an example anyway.

OSAS is NOWHERE TO BE FOUND in the NT.

So one Protestant believes salvation can be forfeited
And another Protestant believes it cannot.

Who's right?
It CANNOT BE BOTH.

The reformation was necessary.
But look at what it has produced.
Thousands of denominations if we count the independents.
This is crazy!

This is NOT what Jesus wanted....
He wanted us to be united just as He and our Father are united. JOHN 1:17

1 Corinthians 1:10
I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

1 Peter 3:8
Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind.

Philippians 2:2
Complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.

2 Corinthians 3:11
Finally, brothers, rejoice. Aim for restoration, comfort one another, agree with one another, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.

And, many more such verses.
You cannot deny that there is discord within Protestantism that does not exist in the CC.

It's NECESSARY that theologians use hermeneutics to read the bible and to explain what it's saying.
God can speak to each one of us individually,,,,
BUT THIS DOES NOT CREATE DOCTRINE.

My interpretation of the Protestant denominations may seem flawed to you,
except that I happen to be Protestant of Nazarene and Assembly of God training and I KNOW what the problems are within Protestantism,,,just as I happen to know the problems that exist within the CC,

but this I can assure you.....the problems are not what the CC teaches.
A denominations can teach WHATEVER IT DEEMS CORRECT TO TEACH,,,, just as all our denominations do.

The CC has other problems but doctrine is not one of them....even though I personally do not agree with all of their doctrine or I'd be Catholic, I guess.

Keep this under your hat Rodger:

THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE TRUTH.
Not two or more.

I agree. WHen two people present you with two truths, only ONE can be correct. The one who is correct is the one who has the Word of God as his authority to validate what he says. The other one has his "OPINIONS".

OSAS......Absolutly!

Anyone Protestant believer who says that they can lose or forfeit their salvation is Biblically ignorant so therefore they do know have any idea what the TRUTH is!.

YES.....the Reformation was needed. We agree. I would encourage you to read the work done by John Calvin ...."“The Necessity of Reforming the Church.”

The church is always in need of reform. Even in the New Testament, we see Jesus rebuking Peter, and we see Paul correcting the Corinthians. Since Christians are always sinners, the church will always need reform.

The Reformers of the sixteenth century concluded that reform was urgent and necessary.
In pursuing reform for the church, they rejected two extremes.

1. On the one hand, they rejected those who insisted that the church was essentially sound and needed no fundamental changes.

2. On the other hand, they rejected those who believed that they could create a perfect church in every detail.

The church needed fundamental reform, but it would also always need to be reforming itself. The Reformers reached these conclusions because they actually began to read the Bible.
The fact that you do not believe in OSAS is answered by your comment of being a Protestant of Nazarene and Assembly of God.

I am not saying that to argue about that denomination...I am only saying that they basically believe you can be saved and then backslide and will go to hell if you should die. You have to repent and accept christ as your savior again to go to heaven.

 

[Rodger]

You stated..."According the Word of God, I am free from the penalty of sin."...even though your words lead me to believe you still commit sin.
Sinners will get exactly what they have coming on the day of judgement.
The only way to be free from the penalty for sin is to stop committing sin !

It isn't my righteousness that I proclaim, it is God's righteousness.
It is written..."For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)
In Him, I have His righteousness.
In Him, is no sin !
No sinners are 'in Him'.

Jesus said we can tell the false prophets by their fruit.
I dispense the words of truth and obedience to God.
Is that not good fruit ?

You can't see the forest, for the trees !
Jesus is telling them how to live !
In Matt 5:48 He concludes with the commandment to be as perfect as God is perfect !
Obey, and live for ever !

This has not only become redundant but now it is repeticeouse and silly. You are saying the same things over and over as if somehow that makes them believable.

Listen brother, allow me to tell you something I learned a long, long time ago.

You like what you know, even if what you know is false. You do that because to learn something that is new and right is a change and we hate the process of change.

So then.....lets put an Amen to this conversation as it is meaningless to me.

Sinners sin because they are sinners. YOU sin because you are a sinner. If I could speak with your wife for just 5 minutes she would confirm that fact because she sees what you say and do.

It is real easy to say that we do not sin on an internet forum, but that is not reality is it??????

 

[Rodger]

Yet Jesus redeemed them anyway as He judges.
Col 1:20
... through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

That is 100% true!

God does not see the sinner after we come to His Son. He sees the blood on our souls and that blood makes us accceptable to the Father.

 

[Rodger]

The verse I quoted from John 9:31 applies to me too.

John is addressing those who do not walk in the light, in verses 6, 8, and 10.
They cannot say they have fellowship with God or that they have no sin, or that they have never sinned.
From 1 John 2:3-6, we also know those who walk in darkness cannot say they know God.

I do believe them.
I also know who they are written about.
Sinners cannot walk in the light, because the light is God; and there is no sin in God.
Those walking in God, can say they have no sin.

If one sins, they are not free from death or the sin's consequences.

If we do as Paul taught in Rom 6:6, we can destroy the flesh.
If we do as Paul taught in Rom 6:3-4, we can crucify the old man and be raised from the grave, with Christ, to walk in newness of life.
Gal 5:24..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

You've misinterpreted Rom. 7.
As there is no sin in Christ, or in His Father, no sinner is in Christ.

Better read Matt 7:22-23..."Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Every Scripture in the Bible applies to you my friend.

You have been tragically taught a false teaching that has affected your whole out look on the salvation experience. That has robbed you of your joy in Christ and I am very sorry about that for you.

Listen friend....no one can crucify the old nature. It has been with the human race since Adam and Eve.

You will not accept pure Bible doctrine and really, that is your loss not mine. Once a person trusts Christ they now have a new nature. However the old nature does not go away. It will not leave the believer until the Christian goes to heaven.

The Bible however does tell us that We are told not to encourage the old nature in any way.

Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature (Romans 13:14).

Prior to salvation the non-Christian has only one capacity, to serve self. At the moment of salvation the person receives a new nature where they have the capacity to serve God. There is now the tendency to do what God wants them to do. They have the capacity, at any given moment, to serve God or to serve self. There is a constant struggle between the old and new natures. Scripture says.

Galatians 5:16-17......
"Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want".

I am fully aware of what you think you know. You have fallen into the trap that Salvation is not a matter of improvement or perfection of what has previously existed. It is total transformation...At the new birth a person becomes `a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come' (2 Cor. 5:17). It is not simply that he receives something new but that he becomes someone new...The new nature is not added to the old nature but replaces it. The transformed person is a completely new `I.' Biblical terminology, then, does not say that a Christian has two different natures. He has but one nature, the new nature in Christ. The old self dies and the new self lives; they do not coexist. It is not a remaining old nature but the remaining garment of sinful flesh that causes Christians to sin. The Christian is a single new person, a totally new creation, not a spiritual schizophrenic...The believer as a total person is transformed but not yet wholly perfect. He has residing sin but no longer reigning sin. He is no longer the old man corrupted but is now the new man created in righteousness and holiness, awaiting full salvation.

But reality and Bible truth Explains that the reality that the believer has only one new nature is simply playing a psychological word game. It is you saying to yourself, .....
`I'm really wonderful, holy, and righteous', until you finally convince yourself of something that isn't true. The point is that God's Word teaches that sin's power is broken in the life of the believer, and our response is to believe that to be true.

The Scriptures teach that every regenerated person is the possessor of two natures:
1. one, received by natural birth, which is wholly and hopelessly bad;
2. and a new nature, received through the new birth, which is the nature of God Himself.

The believer, while still having his old nature, unchanged and unchangeable, has received a new nature which `after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.' It will be seen that regeneration is a creation, not a mere transformation—the bringing in a new thing, not the change of an old.

Please take the time to find and read the book by C.I. Scofield, Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth, chapter on "The Believer's Two Natures".

 

[Hopeful 2]

I can agree with you as to free FROM SERVICE TO SIN.

I cringe at what some Christians write.

...you will know them by their fruit !

 

[Hopeful 2]

This has not only become redundant but now it is repeticeouse and silly. You are saying the same things over and over as if somehow that makes them believable.

Listen brother, allow me to tell you something I learned a long, long time ago.

You like what you know, even if what you know is false. You do that because to learn something that is new and right is a change and we hate the process of change.

So then.....lets put an Amen to this conversation as it is meaningless to me.

Sinners sin because they are sinners. YOU sin because you are a sinner. If I could speak with your wife for just 5 minutes she would confirm that fact because she sees what you say and do.

It is real easy to say that we do not sin on an internet forum, but that is not reality is it??????

YOU don't have to be a sinner any more.
God gave us everything we need to remain obedient to Him.
Even rebirth from God's seed.

 

[Hopeful 2]

That is 100% true!

God does not see the sinner after we come to His Son. He sees the blood on our souls and that blood makes us accceptable to the Father.

So God lies to Himself ?
Not a chance.
Your POV is what I call the Harry Potter Invisibility Cloak false doctrine.

If one sins. they will be judged for it.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Every Scripture in the Bible applies to you my friend.

Not so.
Some scripture addresses believers and others address unbelievers.

You have been tragically taught a false teaching that has affected your whole out look on the salvation experience. That has robbed you of your joy in Christ and I am very sorry about that for you.

I see no "tragedy" in obedience to God.
Why do you ?

Listen friend....no one can crucify the old nature. It has been with the human race since Adam and Eve.

I guess you don't believe in rebirth, or Gal 5:24..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

You will not accept pure Bible doctrine and really, that is your loss not mine. Once a person trusts Christ they now have a new nature. However the old nature does not go away. It will not leave the believer until the Christian goes to heaven.

I call that false doctrine the "Split Personality Doctrine".
Two, fighting against each other.
I will not accept any accommodations for sin.
Neither should anyone else.

The Bible however does tell us that We are told not to encourage the old nature in any way.

You can't encourage something that has been destroyed.
Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature (Romans 13:14).

But you say that is impossible ?
Some of that split personality poking through ?

Prior to salvation the non-Christian has only one capacity, to serve self. At the moment of salvation the person receives a new nature where they have the capacity to serve God. There is now the tendency to do what God wants them to do. They have the capacity, at any given moment, to serve God or to serve self. There is a constant struggle between the old and new natures. Scripture says.

Only those still in a "not dead old man" struggle.
Be a new creature and be done with the old everything !
It is written..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)

Galatians 5:16-17......
"Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want".

If you still have a sin nature, you are not in the Spirit.

I am fully aware of what you think you know. You have fallen into the trap that Salvation is not a matter of improvement or perfection of what has previously existed. It is total transformation...At the new birth a person becomes `a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come' (2 Cor. 5:17).

That is exactly what I believe.
Thanks for the verse that proves it.
Is this the same Roger that just wrote..."Listen friend....no one can crucify the old nature. It has been with the human race since Adam and Eve." ???

It is not simply that he receives something new but that he becomes someone new...The new nature is not added to the old nature but replaces it.

That is right.
Including the nature.

The transformed person is a completely new `I.' Biblical terminology, then, does not say that a Christian has two different natures. He has but one nature, the new nature in Christ. The old self dies and the new self lives; they do not coexist. It is not a remaining old nature but the remaining garment of sinful flesh that causes Christians to sin. The Christian is a single new person, a totally new creation, not a spiritual schizophrenic...The believer as a total person is transformed but not yet wholly perfect. He has residing sin but no longer reigning sin. He is no longer the old man corrupted but is now the new man created in righteousness and holiness, awaiting full salvation.

The only imperfections in the children reborn of God's seed is the vessel's mortality.
The body fades away, but the body is at the service of the new mind.

But reality and Bible truth Explains that the reality that the believer has only one new nature is simply playing a psychological word game.

If you think God left His children with split personalities, you are wrong.

It is you saying to yourself, .....`I'm really wonderful, holy, and righteous', until you finally convince yourself of something that isn't true. The point is that God's Word teaches that sin's power is broken in the life of the believer, and our response is to believe that to be true.

What I say to myself is "Thanks be to God for saving me from what I once was !"

The Scriptures teach that every regenerated person is the possessor of two natures:
1. one, received by natural birth, which is wholly and hopelessly bad;
2. and a new nature, received through the new birth, which is the nature of God Himself.

No, scripture teaches no such thing.
It teaches us that the old man can be destroyed. (Rom 6:6, Gal 5:24), and another raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)

The believer, while still having his old nature, unchanged and unchangeable, has received a new nature which `after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.' It will be seen that regeneration is a creation, not a mere transformation—the bringing in a new thing, not the change of an old.
Please take the time to find and read the book by C.I. Scofield, Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth, chapter on "The Believer's Two Natures".

Why would I seek a second, defiled, unsanctified, nature ?
"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:3)

It is written..."Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved." (Matt 9:17)
Why are you trying to keep part of the "old bottle" ?