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Calvinism and Darwinism

Mr. Aaron said:
...Thank God you need not believe as I do to be saved; I may still call you brothers. And, rest assured, I will never do you the indignity of claiming you worship a different God. "For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement through faith in his blood." (Rom. 3:23-25)
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You know, I wish more around here had that attitude towards their brothers and sisters in Christ. That is very well said brother :thumb :nod
 
Dude named Louis wrote:
You know, great minds have wrestled and debated these matters for centuries. Godly men (and women) who love the Lord and seek truth. I love my Arminian brothers, I understand how they get to their conclusions. I have different interpretations of the texts and come to different conclusions. Yet the friends I have who are not reformed (I prefer Reformed to Calvanist) understand that we have so much in common—they don't treat me as someone who believes in a false gospel. They realize at the end of the day that we both realize that we are sinners saved by grace through faith in Christ.
Click to expand...
Well, hopefully, folks, I won’t offend anyone with my first post here on this forum. After having sat through a night with James White defending Calvinism and watching a debate between him and George Bryson, trust me, I’ve had it with sarcasm and everything that I say here will be straight from the heart. My wife and I live in the Riverside area of Southern Cal. and for several years have been searching for a church that will turn away from contemporary Christianity and return to a reverence for God and desire for His holiness. It’s been almost two years now since we’ve walked into our church and felt any type of reverence or attitude of worship. Our pastor teaches Biblically, but very shallow and not really for the mature Christian. An occasional joke in the form of an illustration and regular designed-for-sermons illustrations are used frequently and the USC Trojans and the Anaheim Angels are often interjected into the announcements and the sermon. Holiness is minimalized and it is strongly suggested that all you have to do is just be Christ-like and don’t get caught up pursuing Holiness itself, because it might lead to legalism. The “cannedâ€, “7/11†contemporary worship music seems to meet 98% of the congregational needs and a hymn will very, very rarely be sung Sunday morning and if it is played and sung, it will have a modern “country†style and feel. The sermons have been based on New T. for over 4 years now and the Old T., and the God thereof, are very rarely mentioned. Fortunately we have access to a lot of great teaching on the internet. Our present church is a non-denom. spin off of Calvary Chapels and so far, is our last stop after an extensive search throughout the Inland Empire for a church that would meet our needs. It seems like I may have an “I†problem, I know… but for quite a while now we have been praying that God would just lead us to the church that He wants us in and so far have not felt Him leading us elsewhere. This issue regarding Calvinism has been on our hearts for at least 2 years and we have truly prayed continuously about it. After the James White debate, I wanted nothing to do with those “egotistical, self-promoting, cold hearted, sarcastic†Calvinists! But after a lot of prayer and some more searching, I realized that he didn’t represent the mass of the Reformed Theology, probably one of those “Hypersâ€. Since then we have visited the only Reformed Church in Riverside that I know of and discovered that at this church the worship and teaching is the purist and closest to what our hearts desire. Now, none of the “5 points’ have been addressed in the sermons when we’ve been there and no one has quizzed us on “TULIP†yet, but we’ve only been there 2 or 3 times. I can’t seem to get past the “Free Will†issues and still see Calvinism as pretty much a robotic thing where God created X amount of people, some plucked out of darkness and given eternal life and the rest of them still in ignorance, never having known that there was an option, being sent straight to hell in that ignorance. Personally I do not like the terminology “Calvinistâ€. It seems to indicate to me that there are a bunch of individuals running around that put more credence in Calvin than they do the Word of God and I don’t want to be known as anything but a Christian.
So, with all that said, Louis Dude, I just want you to know that I really appreciate you and your honesty and the spirit in which you post. I am still searching for all of these truths that have been posted and talked about here and have many thoughts and questions about the Reformed Theology… I love the reverence and deep teaching that I’ve experienced so far and long for a congregation that desires it also, but from all of my experience with those who would call themselves Calvinists, I think I would like to stay away from them for now until I have a little more understanding, possibly.
Also if anyone has any recommendations for a church family out here in Riverside, I sure would appreciate that info! Thank you one and all for your posts…great knowledge, great education!!!
 
We don't. Man's sin has condemned him. FTR, I have always said I believe in choice—I believe scripture teaches both—election and choice and reconciling them is a great mystery of the faith that I will leave as just that, a mystery.


i HAVE A RELATIVE WHO COMPLETELY BELIEVES GOD SENDS PEOPLE TO HELL, before they're even born, he believes God sentences some to eternal punishment.
that makes the sacrifice and blood of Jesus not necessary. Why ask for forgiveness, if you're forgiven before you're born?

You are unusual, that you believe election and choice. I AGREE, it is not understandable, and maybe some day we will know, but, not now. Now is the time of faith.
agreed?
 
first, i cut my finger with a blade, so my typing is crummy, but, your post reflects the dissatisfaction many feel about churches now. Christianity has been watered down, and prostituted, to the point that most churches don't remotely resemble anything Godly now.
I guess Calif has a worse problem with finding Godly churches.
I'm in a KJV only baptist church, but, the preaching is not terribly deep, but, it is scriptural, which is refreshing. Look for a KJV only church, you might be happy there.

Let me say, I believe all of the bible, and it's inerrant, and, just because I don't understand fully predestination vs. choice, doesn't mean it isn't there.
I do have a problem with people blaming God for their own rejection of Jesus.
thats just wrong.
ow, my finger hurts.
gotta stop.
Afew2go said:
Dude named Louis wrote:
You know, great minds have wrestled and debated these matters for centuries. Godly men (and women) who love the Lord and seek truth. I love my Arminian brothers, I understand how they get to their conclusions. I have different interpretations of the texts and come to different conclusions. Yet the friends I have who are not reformed (I prefer Reformed to Calvanist) understand that we have so much in common—they don't treat me as someone who believes in a false gospel. They realize at the end of the day that we both realize that we are sinners saved by grace through faith in Christ.
Click to expand...
Well, hopefully, folks, I won’t offend anyone with my first post here on this forum. After having sat through a night with James White defending Calvinism and watching a debate between him and George Bryson, trust me, I’ve had it with sarcasm and everything that I say here will be straight from the heart. My wife and I live in the Riverside area of Southern Cal. and for several years have been searching for a church that will turn away from contemporary Christianity and return to a reverence for God and desire for His holiness. It’s been almost two years now since we’ve walked into our church and felt any type of reverence or attitude of worship. Our pastor teaches Biblically, but very shallow and not really for the mature Christian. An occasional joke in the form of an illustration and regular designed-for-sermons illustrations are used frequently and the USC Trojans and the Anaheim Angels are often interjected into the announcements and the sermon. Holiness is minimalized and it is strongly suggested that all you have to do is just be Christ-like and don’t get caught up pursuing Holiness itself, because it might lead to legalism. The “cannedâ€, “7/11†contemporary worship music seems to meet 98% of the congregational needs and a hymn will very, very rarely be sung Sunday morning and if it is played and sung, it will have a modern “country†style and feel. The sermons have been based on New T. for over 4 years now and the Old T., and the God thereof, are very rarely mentioned. Fortunately we have access to a lot of great teaching on the internet. Our present church is a non-denom. spin off of Calvary Chapels and so far, is our last stop after an extensive search throughout the Inland Empire for a church that would meet our needs. It seems like I may have an “I†problem, I know… but for quite a while now we have been praying that God would just lead us to the church that He wants us in and so far have not felt Him leading us elsewhere. This issue regarding Calvinism has been on our hearts for at least 2 years and we have truly prayed continuously about it. After the James White debate, I wanted nothing to do with those “egotistical, self-promoting, cold hearted, sarcastic†Calvinists! But after a lot of prayer and some more searching, I realized that he didn’t represent the mass of the Reformed Theology, probably one of those “Hypersâ€. Since then we have visited the only Reformed Church in Riverside that I know of and discovered that at this church the worship and teaching is the purist and closest to what our hearts desire. Now, none of the “5 points’ have been addressed in the sermons when we’ve been there and no one has quizzed us on “TULIP†yet, but we’ve only been there 2 or 3 times. I can’t seem to get past the “Free Will†issues and still see Calvinism as pretty much a robotic thing where God created X amount of people, some plucked out of darkness and given eternal life and the rest of them still in ignorance, never having known that there was an option, being sent straight to hell in that ignorance. Personally I do not like the terminology “Calvinistâ€. It seems to indicate to me that there are a bunch of individuals running around that put more credence in Calvin than they do the Word of God and I don’t want to be known as anything but a Christian.
So, with all that said, Louis Dude, I just want you to know that I really appreciate you and your honesty and the spirit in which you post. I am still searching for all of these truths that have been posted and talked about here and have many thoughts and questions about the Reformed Theology… I love the reverence and deep teaching that I’ve experienced so far and long for a congregation that desires it also, but from all of my experience with those who would call themselves Calvinists, I think I would like to stay away from them for now until I have a little more understanding, possibly.
Also if anyone has any recommendations for a church family out here in Riverside, I sure would appreciate that info! Thank you one and all for your posts…great knowledge, great education!!!
Click to expand...
 
Afew2go said:
Dude named Louis wrote:
You know, great minds have wrestled and debated these matters for centuries. Godly men (and women) who love the Lord and seek truth. I love my Arminian brothers, I understand how they get to their conclusions. I have different interpretations of the texts and come to different conclusions. Yet the friends I have who are not reformed (I prefer Reformed to Calvanist) understand that we have so much in common—they don't treat me as someone who believes in a false gospel. They realize at the end of the day that we both realize that we are sinners saved by grace through faith in Christ.
Click to expand...
Well, hopefully, folks, I won’t offend anyone with my first post here on this forum. After having sat through a night with James White defending Calvinism and watching a debate between him and George Bryson, trust me, I’ve had it with sarcasm and everything that I say here will be straight from the heart. My wife and I live in the Riverside area of Southern Cal. and for several years have been searching for a church that will turn away from contemporary Christianity and return to a reverence for God and desire for His holiness. It’s been almost two years now since we’ve walked into our church and felt any type of reverence or attitude of worship. Our pastor teaches Biblically, but very shallow and not really for the mature Christian. An occasional joke in the form of an illustration and regular designed-for-sermons illustrations are used frequently and the USC Trojans and the Anaheim Angels are often interjected into the announcements and the sermon. Holiness is minimalized and it is strongly suggested that all you have to do is just be Christ-like and don’t get caught up pursuing Holiness itself, because it might lead to legalism. The “cannedâ€, “7/11†contemporary worship music seems to meet 98% of the congregational needs and a hymn will very, very rarely be sung Sunday morning and if it is played and sung, it will have a modern “country†style and feel. The sermons have been based on New T. for over 4 years now and the Old T., and the God thereof, are very rarely mentioned. Fortunately we have access to a lot of great teaching on the internet. Our present church is a non-denom. spin off of Calvary Chapels and so far, is our last stop after an extensive search throughout the Inland Empire for a church that would meet our needs. It seems like I may have an “I†problem, I know… but for quite a while now we have been praying that God would just lead us to the church that He wants us in and so far have not felt Him leading us elsewhere. This issue regarding Calvinism has been on our hearts for at least 2 years and we have truly prayed continuously about it. After the James White debate, I wanted nothing to do with those “egotistical, self-promoting, cold hearted, sarcastic†Calvinists! But after a lot of prayer and some more searching, I realized that he didn’t represent the mass of the Reformed Theology, probably one of those “Hypersâ€. Since then we have visited the only Reformed Church in Riverside that I know of and discovered that at this church the worship and teaching is the purist and closest to what our hearts desire. Now, none of the “5 points’ have been addressed in the sermons when we’ve been there and no one has quizzed us on “TULIP†yet, but we’ve only been there 2 or 3 times. I can’t seem to get past the “Free Will†issues and still see Calvinism as pretty much a robotic thing where God created X amount of people, some plucked out of darkness and given eternal life and the rest of them still in ignorance, never having known that there was an option, being sent straight to hell in that ignorance. Personally I do not like the terminology “Calvinistâ€. It seems to indicate to me that there are a bunch of individuals running around that put more credence in Calvin than they do the Word of God and I don’t want to be known as anything but a Christian.
So, with all that said, Louis Dude, I just want you to know that I really appreciate you and your honesty and the spirit in which you post. I am still searching for all of these truths that have been posted and talked about here and have many thoughts and questions about the Reformed Theology… I love the reverence and deep teaching that I’ve experienced so far and long for a congregation that desires it also, but from all of my experience with those who would call themselves Calvinists, I think I would like to stay away from them for now until I have a little more understanding, possibly.
Also if anyone has any recommendations for a church family out here in Riverside, I sure would appreciate that info! Thank you one and all for your posts…great knowledge, great education!!!
Click to expand...
Thank you AFew2Go. I think your experience at the church you are currently attending is a good example of what I have been trying to communicate. There is a lot more in common than people think—that is why I am comfortable also worshiping in many churches that are not Reformed—what is taught and sung about and prayed about is still the core truth that we are sinners saved by God's grace through Christ. I will pray that you find a church that you will be blessed by and where you can also be used for God's purpose—to bless others and advance His kingdom.

Louis
 
AFew2Go,
May I take a moment and personally apologize to you for my earlier sarcasm? It grieves me to think I may have added to you exasperation with 'calvinist' (I hate that term as well) churches. I am not typically sarcastic, in fact I dont typically debate theology; I think debating theology comes pretty close, if it doesn't actually cross the line, of misusing theology, whose real purpose is to move us to greater love for God and stronger faith in Him. I don't want to excuse myself- I suppose I got that way because posts earlier in this thread (indeed even the TITLE of the thread!) suggested that at worst my personal beliefs were akin to godlessness or occultism and at best they blamed God for sin. Very grossly offensive, inaccurate and unfair suggestions. I know that personal offense is not an excuse to be ugly, so I hope you'll forgive if I annoyed or offended you. Like Louis, I will pray for your search for a new church home. (in fact, I took a moment and just prayed now) Also, may your new church build you up in Christ and His word, and may you find there a family in the Lord with whom you may grow and serve.

For all my brothers in Christ, I will make a resolution here and now, and I urge anyone with an ounce of courage to do the same: I will no longer behave as though I have to defend my beliefs on this site (that's kind of the 'little man' syndrome anyway. And in my day to day life, I don't live like a 'little man,' so why should I here? My beliefs are not in danger, nor am I concerned with them being turned by someone here; I did not come to them lightly nor on a whim, but after much prayer, soul searching, and scripture study.) From this point on I am going to make an effort to only bring encouragement in the Lord to brothers with any posts I make. If someone else is ugly, I simply won't respond to them at all, or if I feel the need, I will leave a personal message (following Matthew 18) - not bring the dispute into public forum. I will not use sarcasm to make a point. I repent. I have not, and will not personally attack a brother. We all agree that the world is in danger of hell, and that the only hope for man is in the gospel - the message we have been entrusted with. As the church, we are the salt and light of the world. And we will each stand before the great white throne. For that matter, we each have the hope of eternity through Christ Jesus. We have no business engaging in warfare against each other. We have no right to eclipse the good news of the gospel with our disagreements. It is a sin for us to allow differences of theological opinion to make us enemies, when Christ died that we might be brothers. It is a sin when our attitudes suggest that the unity we have in Christ is no bigger than theological agreement. I just won't do it any more.
 
Mr. Aaron said:
AFew2Go,
May I take a moment and personally apologize to you for my earlier sarcasm? It grieves me to think I may have added to you exasperation with 'calvinist' (I hate that term as well) churches. I am not typically sarcastic, in fact I dont typically debate theology; I think debating theology comes pretty close, if it doesn't actually cross the line, of misusing theology, whose real purpose is to move us to greater love for God and stronger faith in Him. I don't want to excuse myself- I suppose I got that way because posts earlier in this thread (indeed even the TITLE of the thread!) suggested that at worst my personal beliefs were akin to godlessness or occultism and at best they blamed God for sin. Very grossly offensive, inaccurate and unfair suggestions. I know that personal offense is not an excuse to be ugly, so I hope you'll forgive if I annoyed or offended you. Like Louis, I will pray for your search for a new church home. (in fact, I took a moment and just prayed now) Also, may your new church build you up in Christ and His word, and may you find there a family in the Lord with whom you may grow and serve.

For all my brothers in Christ, I will make a resolution here and now, and I urge anyone with an ounce of courage to do the same: I will no longer behave as though I have to defend my beliefs on this site (that's kind of the 'little man' syndrome anyway. And in my day to day life, I don't live like a 'little man,' so why should I here? My beliefs are not in danger, nor am I concerned with them being turned by someone here; I did not come to them lightly nor on a whim, but after much prayer, soul searching, and scripture study.) From this point on I am going to make an effort to only bring encouragement in the Lord to brothers with any posts I make. If someone else is ugly, I simply won't respond to them at all, or if I feel the need, I will leave a personal message (following Matthew 18) - not bring the dispute into public forum. I will not use sarcasm to make a point. I repent. I have not, and will not personally attack a brother. We all agree that the world is in danger of hell, and that the only hope for man is in the gospel - the message we have been entrusted with. As the church, we are the salt and light of the world. And we will each stand before the great white throne. For that matter, we each have the hope of eternity through Christ Jesus. We have no business engaging in warfare against each other. We have no right to eclipse the good news of the gospel with our disagreements. It is a sin for us to allow differences of theological opinion to make us enemies, when Christ died that we might be brothers. It is a sin when our attitudes suggest that the unity we have in Christ is no bigger than theological agreement. I just won't do it any more.
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:amen Nice bro.
 
amen

i have no aminosity toward the calvinist here. i dont agree with that doctrine. and i will leave it at that.
 
Amen, Mr. Aaron! No apology needed, I agree with everything you just said. Unfortunately, everyone that I've talked to that have openly called them self a Calvinist, have never displayed the love of Christ or anything even close to it. On the other hand, those who have called themselves Reformed have been warm, humble and very helpful in our search. As a child I was raised in a very Godly home and in the Church of the Nazarene, among people that constantly sought after Holiness. I find that the older I get the more I want to return to my roots in Holiness, sanctification, being set apart. Unfortunately the Nazarene church here in Riverside, like our current church is very light in the Word and sticks to sermons that leave you very much unchanged and non-convicted as you walk back out the door and into the world. When I talk to pastors or representatives of churches before visiting them, they usually tout teaching expositional, verse by verse, chapter by chapter, book by book through the Bible. But when ya' get there and the pastor starts preaching, it's just that. He'll usually take 5 to 10 verses, fill them with a joke or two, several illustrations that have nothing to do with the Word of God and then take you on rabbit trail after rabbit trail. An hour later you're walking out the door shaking your head wondering what that was all about. I really feel that time is growing short for humanity and don't understand why pastors aren't calling us, pleading with us to draw close to the Lord and get serious about our relationship with Him. Whether we are "Reformed" or "Free Willers", we are all commanded to reach out to the lost with the Gospel.
So for me, it's really great to hear everyone here and get their take on things and again, Mr. Aaron, I really appreciate your latest post. I too, am proud to call you my Brother! Thank you!!
 
You're welcome Afew2Go! I agree that preaching really does need to expound the Word and address the will. Being a preacher myself, my greatest hope and prayer in what I'm doing is that people will remember the Word - not me. Illustrations need to be not for the sake of entertainment, but addressing the will and pointing back to the Word. Myself forgotten - Christ elevated.
 
Dude named Louis said:
[quote="Mr. Aaron":23is552o]Well, I feel guilty. I'm mildly sorry (but only MILDLY) for my sarcasm. At the same time, I won't be silent. The God I believe in is sovereign - even over me, even over my will. My will is only free because He has made me alive. Thank God you need not believe as I do to be saved; I may still call you brothers. And, rest assured, I will never do you the indignity of claiming you worship a different God. "For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement through faith in his blood." (Rom. 3:23-25)
Click to expand...

I'm delighted to call you my brother Aaron :)[/quote:23is552o]I wouldn't be Louis is is people like Arron that causes others to despise calvinist.
 
watchman F said:
[quote="Dude named Louis":3kfy8ayy][quote="Mr. Aaron":3kfy8ayy]Well, I feel guilty. I'm mildly sorry (but only MILDLY) for my sarcasm. At the same time, I won't be silent. The God I believe in is sovereign - even over me, even over my will. My will is only free because He has made me alive. Thank God you need not believe as I do to be saved; I may still call you brothers. And, rest assured, I will never do you the indignity of claiming you worship a different God. "For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement through faith in his blood." (Rom. 3:23-25)
Click to expand...

I'm delighted to call you my brother Aaron :)[/quote:3kfy8ayy]I wouldn't be Louis is is people like Arron that causes others to despise calvinist.[/quote:3kfy8ayy]

Hello Watchman. I hope you have read his subsequent posts. I know Aaron personally and am blessed to call him my friend. He is a peaceful and Godly man. The love of Christ pours out of Him. May God grant us peace that we may honor Him.
 
Love you, Louis! I love you, too brother watchman! Can't wait to meet you in heaven. We'll find we have a bunch in common! :)
 
Dude named Louis said:
[quote="watchman F":28gs6ky5][quote="Dude named Louis":28gs6ky5]

I'm delighted to call you my brother Aaron :)
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I wouldn't be Louis is is people like Arron that causes others to despise calvinist.[/quote:28gs6ky5]

Hello Watchman. I hope you have read his subsequent posts. I know Aaron personally and am blessed to call him my friend. He is a peaceful and Godly man. The love of Christ pours out of Him. May God grant us peace that we may honor Him.[/quote:28gs6ky5]Yes I have read his detraction, and he PMed me. Aaron does indeed seem like a very nice person.
 
One of the major points of this post of mine, was to point out that atheists believe we have no free will.
and, Calvinists teach the same lie.
A lie is a lie.
Jesus died for EVERYONE. Not just a select few.
Jesus paid the price for everyone, but, they have to choose Him.
Get back to that, please, instead of this mutual admiration society.
 
Biblereader said:
A lie is a lie.
Jesus died for EVERYONE. Not just a select few.
Jesus paid the price for everyone, but, they have to choose Him.
Get back to that, please, instead of this mutual admiration society.
Click to expand...
Would you mind if I agreed with your post? Because it is true Calvinist teach lies, and a lie is a lie, whether it is coming from a athiestic text book or the pulpit.
 
watchman F said:
Biblereader said:
A lie is a lie.
Jesus died for EVERYONE. Not just a select few.
Jesus paid the price for everyone, but, they have to choose Him.
Get back to that, please, instead of this mutual admiration society.
Click to expand...
Would you mind if I agreed with your post? Because it is true Calvinist teach lies, and a lie is a lie, whether it is coming from a athiestic text book or the pulpit.
Click to expand...

Hey, you fellas forgot the "pants on fire" part. :onfire
 
hmm some say that they have the only correct interpration of the bible and no it inside and out, yet wont admit mens traditions have infiltrated their chuch as well

hypercalvinism is different from the normal the calvininism , and calvinist do witness.
 
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