25 quotes on Calvinism

[GodsGrace]

I can't go into this as when I asked you to define "FREE" will you could not give a complete definition. As I recall you defined "will" as the ability to chose but were unable to define the "FREE" part of free will.

Oh please do get into this FF.
Let's just forget about free will until the topic comes up again,
and then I'll ONCE AGAIN, give you the biblical meaning of free will (which is one sentence long) and we could try again.

You did not chose your parents, culture you were born in, sex, health, to have a sin nature, yada, yada, yada ... your will is not free (again, you can't define "free" so no sense going deeper). These are just a few clear examples of God "tampering" with you will.

So HOW did you read all of the above in my ONE SENTENCE definition of FREE WILL in THE BIBLE....
NOT IN PHILOSOPHY.

You could speak to Bill Craig regarding Philosophical free will.
HE understands it really well.
For we Christians, only the biblical definition is required to have a conversation.

Tampering with your will verses:
Psalm 33:10 The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nought; He makes the thoughts and plans of the peoples of no effect.

Psalm 33:15 He Who fashions the hearts of them all, Who considers all their doings.

Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Oh. Boy.

Could you PLEASE go back and reply to my post to you?
It would be greatly appreciated.

 

[brightfame52]

As I said earlier..."No, I don't remember that being brought up, as that point has already been understood by the folks I spoke to.
Paul is writing to the church that already knew that."

The only limitation imposed on justification, or salvation, is that we must first repent of sin, be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, and endure faithfully until the end.
Do those things, and you will be saved.
Don't do them, and perish.

You have already departed from the Gospel text of 1 or 15:3-4 and want to talk about man

 

[brightfame52]

Man is unable to obey the Law.
Thus the NC.

Yes he is unable but thats his only hope of salvation if Christ didnt die for him or her.

 

[brightfame52]

Could you please respond again?
Apparently your reply made no sense to me.
I'm not saying YOU didn't respond properly,
I'm saying that I perhaps would need different words so I could understand you better.

No i will not , please pay attention to the posters reply for they generally have put in time and effort, thanks

 

[Hopeful 2]

You have already departed from the Gospel text of 1 or 15:3-4 and want to talk about man

The gospel can be summed up in one sentence, but there are many adjacent facets that take a longer time to get to know.
"Here is the good news !"...and here is what to do with it.
Please don't tell me that you quit learning after hearing the gospel.

 

[GodsGrace]

brightfame52

Which one and why?
It's necessary for you to state this.
Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes he is unable but thats his only hope of salvation if Christ didnt die for him or her.

HOW could obeying the law be hope of salvation if man is unable to obey the law???

How were men saved in the OT?

 

[brightfame52]

HOW could obeying the law be hope of salvation if man is unable to obey the law???

How were men saved in the OT?

Lol, thats the point, if Christ didnt die for them ,its a hopeless situation. And saints in the OT were saved as them in the NT by Christ and the Mercy and Grace of God

 

[Iconoclast]

Lol, thats the point, if Christ didnt die for them ,its a hopeless situation. And saints in the OT were saved as them in the NT by Christ and the Mercy and Grace of God

Heb.10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

This section of Hebrews shows clearly how the salvation of all ELECT saints takes place.

 

[brightfame52]

Heb.10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

This section of Hebrews shows clearly how the salvation of all ELECT saints takes place.

Yes both Heb 10:10,14

 

[GodsGrace]

Lol, thats the point, if Christ didnt die for them ,its a hopeless situation. And saints in the OT were saved as them in the NT by Christ and the Mercy and Grace of God

First of all, Jesus died for all men.
I'll give the verses if you wish to get into this, but it's not our present discussion.

Let's go back and figure out what we're talking about:

This is post 268:
Fastfredy0

1) It is our duty to obey God

Correct and for the non elect, who Christ didnt Surety for, their duty is to obey the law.
Let's start from the beginning please.
Fastfredy0 said that our duty is to obey God.
Truer words are difficult to find.

********************************

Post 279:

@Fastfredy0



Correct and for the non elect, who Christ didnt Surety for, their duty is to obey the law.

Man is unable to obey the Law.
Thus the NC.


*******************************************

Here you're saying that the non-elect have a duty to obey the law.
I replied that man CANNOT obey THE LAW, thus the New Covenant.
Aside from the fact that it's rather difficult to understand why God would require a non-saved person
to obey the Law.....
Why should the unsaved obey the Law....they can't be any more lost than lost can they?

 

[Iconoclast]

First of all, Jesus died for all men.

Jesus died a Covenant death for all the elect. A great multitude, but not all men.All the children are scattered worldwide.

********************************



*******************************************

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus died a Covenant death for all the elect. A great multitude, but not all men.All the children are scattered worldwide.

What is a Covenant death?

Jesus' sacrifice was too small to serve everyone?
We have a mighty God....

1 John 2:2 JESUS IS THE PROPITIATION FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD.

John 3:16 WHOEVER BELIEVES IN JESUS WILL BE SAVED, BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH...EPH 2:8

Hebrews 9:26 JESUS APPEARED ONCE TO PUT AWAY SIN BY THE SACRIFICE OF HIMSELF.

John 1:29 B EHOLD, THE LAMB OF GOD WHO TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD.

John 19:30 WHAT IS FINISHED?
GOD'S PLAN TO SEND A REDEEMER TO BUY US BACK FROM THE EVIL ONE.

 

[Iconoclast]

What is a Covenant death?

The God of the bible is a Covenant making, and Covenant keeping God.
The triune God has a Covenant that is among the Godhead. When a person denies this exist it is hard for them to grasp.

Jesus' sacrifice was too small to serve everyone?

On the contrary...it was never intended to save everyone who ever lived. God has not intended to save everyone ever born. The Atonement described in scripture saves everyone who it intended to save. Jesus 100% saves all He was mediator and Surety for. A Surety is a guarantee. Jesus saves 100% of whom He intends to. The biblical atonement is ACTUAL, not potential.

We have a mighty God....

1 John 2:2 JESUS IS THE PROPITIATION FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD.

Jesus is a certain propitiation...not a potential propitiation. Those sent into hell will have no propitiation.
Only those elected worldwide have a propitiation for their sins.

John 3:16 WHOEVER BELIEVES IN JESUS WILL BE SAVED, BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH...EPH 2:8

Everyone believing will be saved.

Hebrews 9:26 JESUS APPEARED ONCE TO PUT AWAY SIN BY THE SACRIFICE OF HIMSELF.

He put away the sin of His elect church.

John 1:29 B EHOLD, THE LAMB OF GOD WHO TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD.

Sin is removed for all the elect worldwide. The non elect worldwide, will dies in their sins.

John 19:30 WHAT IS FINISHED?

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified....The elect are the only ones sanctified and perfected forever.

GOD'S PLAN TO SEND A REDEEMER TO BUY US BACK FROM THE EVIL ONE.

No, it was not a ransom from Satan. It was penal substitutionary atonement.

You can delete emojis all you want, but your state was foul.

I like to leave the bible out of this.
Christians are supposed to be worshipping God, not the bible.

The bible as the word of God , reveals the true and living God.We never leave the bible out of anything.

 

[Fastfredy0]

*munches on his popcorn and shakes his head*

 

[brightfame52]

GodsGrace

First of all, Jesus died for all men.

May as well stop right here since this is absoluetly false.

 

[GodsGrace]

The God of the bible is a Covenant making, and Covenant keeping God.
The triune God has a Covenant that is among the Godhead. When a person denies this exist it is hard for them to grasp.

Hmmm. I know the Covenants pretty well.
Never heard of the above.

Perhaps you could post some sources?

On the contrary...it was never intended to save everyone who ever lived. God has not intended to save everyone ever born

Did I say that??
Could you please steelman me?

The Atonement described in scripture saves everyone who it intended to save. Jesus 100% saves all He was mediator and Surety for. A Surety is a guarantee. Jesus saves 100% of whom He intends to. The biblical atonement is ACTUAL, not potential.

A surety?
So you know about how OSAS cannot be correct because it is only a SURETY....DOWN PAYMENT....on our eventual salvation. However, the mortgage must be paid every month in order for the house to be ours.

Hebrews 6:4-6
What are the spoken of falling away from?

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”
The above states we can fall away and be worse off than before.

Jesus is a certain propitiation...not a potential propitiation. Those sent into hell will have no propitiation.
Only those elected worldwide have a propitiation for their sins.

Jesus died for everyone.
Even those in hell.
But they didn't take advantage of it.
I gave you scripture.
Could you do the same?

Everyone believing will be saved.

He put away the sin of His elect church.

WHERE does it state that Jesus put away the sin of His elect church?
Please post the verse.
Ditto for the elected church...

Sin is removed for all the elect worldwide. The non elect worldwide, will dies in their sins.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified....The elect are the only ones sanctified and perfected forever.

Verse please.
The above is not a verse.
And, where is it stated that the elect are the only ones sanctified?
Verse please.

No, it was not a ransom from Satan. It was penal substitutionary atonement.

The Penal Substitutionary Atonement Theory came about in 1800AD.
Check out the ones that came about in the early church before the Reformation changed what the early church believed.
Here is the atonement theory I posted:

#2 The Ransom Theory​

The Ransom Theory of the Atonement is one of the first major theories for the Atonement. It is often held alongside the Moral Influence Theory, and usually deals more with the actual death of Jesus Christ, what it actually means and the effect it has upon humanity. This theory finds its roots in the Early Church, particularly in Origen from the 3rd century. This theory essentially teaches that Jesus Christ died as a ransom sacrifice, paid either to Satan (the most dominant view) or to God the Father. Jesus’ death then acts as a payment to satisfy the debt on the souls of the human race, the same debt we inherited from Adam’s original sin.

The Ransom view could be summarized like this:

“Essentially, this theory claimed that Adam and Eve sold humanity over to the devil at the time of the Fall’ hence, justice required that God pay the Devil a ransom, for the Devil did not realize that Christ could not be held in the bonds of death. Once the Devil accepted Christ’s death as a ransom, this theory concluded, justice was satisfied and God was able to free us from Satan’s grip.” 1

Redemption in this theory means to buy back, and purchase the human race from the clutches of the Devil. The main controversy here with this theory is the act of paying off the Devil. Some have written that this is not a fair statement to say that all Ransom Theorists believe that the Devil is paid, but rather in this act of Ransom Christ frees humanity from the bondage of sin and death. In this way, Ransom relates the Christus Victor theory. But it’s worth differentiating here because in one way these views are similar, but in another way, they are drastically different.
Here is the Penal Substitution Theory:

#5 The Penal Substitutionary Theory​

Penal Substitutionary Atonement is a development of the Reformation. The Reformers, Specifically Calvin and Luther, took Anselm’s Satisfaction theory and modified it slightly. They added a more legal (or forensic) framework into this notion of the cross as satisfaction. The result is that within Penal Substitution, Jesus Christ dies to satisfy God’s wrath against human sin. Jesus is punished (penal) in the place of sinners (substitution) in order to satisfy the justice of God and the legal demand of God to punish sin. In the light of Jesus’ death, God can now forgive the sinner because Jesus Christ has been punished in the place of the sinner, in this way meeting the retributive requirements of God’s justice. This legal balancing of the ledgers is at the heart of this theory, which claims that Jesus died for legal satisfaction. It’s also worth mentioning that in this theory the notion of imputed righteousness is postulated.

This theory of the Atonement contrasts with Anselm’s Satisfaction Theory in that God is not satisfied with a debt of justice being paid by Jesus, but that God is satisfied with punishing Jesus in the place of mankind. The notion that the cross acts upon God, conditioning Him to forgiveness, originates from Anslems theory, but here in Penal Substitution the means are different. This theory of the Atonement is perhaps the most dominant today, especially among the Reformed, and the evangelical

I'd venture to say that anything that came about 1,500 years after Jesus' death must be questioned.

 

[GodsGrace]

*munches on his popcorn and shakes his head*

How about replying to my posts instead?

 

[GodsGrace]

The God of the bible is a Covenant making, and Covenant keeping God.
The triune God has a Covenant that is among the Godhead. When a person denies this exist it is hard for them to grasp.

Hmmm. I know the Covenants pretty well.
Never heard of the above.

Perhaps you could post some sources?

On the contrary...it was never intended to save everyone who ever lived. God has not intended to save everyone ever born

Did I say that??
Could you please steelman me?

The Atonement described in scripture saves everyone who it intended to save. Jesus 100% saves all He was mediator and Surety for. A Surety is a guarantee. Jesus saves 100% of whom He intends to. The biblical atonement is ACTUAL, not potential.

A surety?
So you know about how OSAS cannot be correct because it is only a SURETY....DOWN PAYMENT....on our eventual salvation. However, the mortgage must be paid every month in order for the house to be ours.

Hebrews 6:4-6
What are the spoken of falling away from?

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”
The above states we can fall away and be worse off than before.

Jesus is a certain propitiation...not a potential propitiation. Those sent into hell will have no propitiation.
Only those elected worldwide have a propitiation for their sins.

Jesus died for everyone.
Even those in hell.
But they didn't take advantage of it.
I gave you scripture.
Could you do the same?

Everyone believing will be saved.

He put away the sin of His elect church.

WHERE does it state that Jesus put away the sin of His elect church?
Please post the verse.
Ditto for the elected church...

Sin is removed for all the elect worldwide. The non elect worldwide, will dies in their sins.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified....The elect are the only ones sanctified and perfected forever.

Verse please.
The above is not a verse.
And, where is it stated that the elect are the only ones sanctified?
Verse please.

No, it was not a ransom from Satan. It was penal substitutionary atonement.

The Penal Substitutionary Atonement Theory came about in 1800AD.
Check out the ones that came about in the early church before the Reformation changed what the early church believed.
Here is the atonement theory I posted:

#2 The Ransom Theory​

The Ransom Theory of the Atonement is one of the first major theories for the Atonement. It is often held alongside the Moral Influence Theory, and usually deals more with the actual death of Jesus Christ, what it actually means and the effect it has upon humanity. This theory finds its roots in the Early Church, particularly in Origen from the 3rd century. This theory essentially teaches that Jesus Christ died as a ransom sacrifice, paid either to Satan (the most dominant view) or to God the Father. Jesus’ death then acts as a payment to satisfy the debt on the souls of the human race, the same debt we inherited from Adam’s original sin.

The Ransom view could be summarized like this:

“Essentially, this theory claimed that Adam and Eve sold humanity over to the devil at the time of the Fall’ hence, justice required that God pay the Devil a ransom, for the Devil did not realize that Christ could not be held in the bonds of death. Once the Devil accepted Christ’s death as a ransom, this theory concluded, justice was satisfied and God was able to free us from Satan’s grip.” 1

Redemption in this theory means to buy back, and purchase the human race from the clutches of the Devil. The main controversy here with this theory is the act of paying off the Devil. Some have written that this is not a fair statement to say that all Ransom Theorists believe that the Devil is paid, but rather in this act of Ransom Christ frees humanity from the bondage of sin and death. In this way, Ransom relates the Christus Victor theory. But it’s worth differentiating here because in one way these views are similar, but in another way, they are drastically different.



Here is the Penal Substitution Theory:

#5 The Penal Substitutionary Theory​

Penal Substitutionary Atonement is a development of the Reformation. The Reformers, Specifically Calvin and Luther, took Anselm’s Satisfaction theory and modified it slightly. They added a more legal (or forensic) framework into this notion of the cross as satisfaction. The result is that within Penal Substitution, Jesus Christ dies to satisfy God’s wrath against human sin. Jesus is punished (penal) in the place of sinners (substitution) in order to satisfy the justice of God and the legal demand of God to punish sin. In the light of Jesus’ death, God can now forgive the sinner because Jesus Christ has been punished in the place of the sinner, in this way meeting the retributive requirements of God’s justice. This legal balancing of the ledgers is at the heart of this theory, which claims that Jesus died for legal satisfaction. It’s also worth mentioning that in this theory the notion of imputed righteousness is postulated.

This theory of the Atonement contrasts with Anselm’s Satisfaction Theory in that God is not satisfied with a debt of justice being paid by Jesus, but that God is satisfied with punishing Jesus in the place of mankind. The notion that the cross acts upon God, conditioning Him to forgiveness, originates from Anslems theory, but here in Penal Substitution the means are different. This theory of the Atonement is perhaps the most dominant today, especially among the Reformed, and the evangelical

I'd venture to say that anything that came about 1,500 years after Jesus' death must be questioned.

 

[electedbyhim]

Hmmm. I know the Covenants pretty well.
Never heard of the above.

Perhaps you could post some sources?




Did I say that??
Could you please steelman me?



A surety?
So you know about how OSAS cannot be correct because it is only a SURETY....DOWN PAYMENT....on our eventual salvation. However, the mortgage must be paid every month in order for the house to be ours.

Hebrews 6:4-6
What are the spoken of falling away from?

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”
The above states we can fall away and be worse off than before.



Jesus died for everyone.
Even those in hell.
But they didn't take advantage of it.
I gave you scripture.
Could you do the same?



WHERE does it state that Jesus put away the sin of His elect church?
Please post the verse.
Ditto for the elected church...



Verse please.
The above is not a verse.
And, where is it stated that the elect are the only ones sanctified?
Verse please.



The Penal Substitutionary Atonement Theory came about in 1800AD.
Check out the ones that came about in the early church before the Reformation changed what the early church believed.
Here is the atonement theory I posted:

#2 The Ransom Theory​

The Ransom Theory of the Atonement is one of the first major theories for the Atonement. It is often held alongside the Moral Influence Theory, and usually deals more with the actual death of Jesus Christ, what it actually means and the effect it has upon humanity. This theory finds its roots in the Early Church, particularly in Origen from the 3rd century. This theory essentially teaches that Jesus Christ died as a ransom sacrifice, paid either to Satan (the most dominant view) or to God the Father. Jesus’ death then acts as a payment to satisfy the debt on the souls of the human race, the same debt we inherited from Adam’s original sin.

The Ransom view could be summarized like this:

“Essentially, this theory claimed that Adam and Eve sold humanity over to the devil at the time of the Fall’ hence, justice required that God pay the Devil a ransom, for the Devil did not realize that Christ could not be held in the bonds of death. Once the Devil accepted Christ’s death as a ransom, this theory concluded, justice was satisfied and God was able to free us from Satan’s grip.” 1

Redemption in this theory means to buy back, and purchase the human race from the clutches of the Devil. The main controversy here with this theory is the act of paying off the Devil. Some have written that this is not a fair statement to say that all Ransom Theorists believe that the Devil is paid, but rather in this act of Ransom Christ frees humanity from the bondage of sin and death. In this way, Ransom relates the Christus Victor theory. But it’s worth differentiating here because in one way these views are similar, but in another way, they are drastically different.



Here is the Penal Substitution Theory:

#5 The Penal Substitutionary Theory​

Penal Substitutionary Atonement is a development of the Reformation. The Reformers, Specifically Calvin and Luther, took Anselm’s Satisfaction theory and modified it slightly. They added a more legal (or forensic) framework into this notion of the cross as satisfaction. The result is that within Penal Substitution, Jesus Christ dies to satisfy God’s wrath against human sin. Jesus is punished (penal) in the place of sinners (substitution) in order to satisfy the justice of God and the legal demand of God to punish sin. In the light of Jesus’ death, God can now forgive the sinner because Jesus Christ has been punished in the place of the sinner, in this way meeting the retributive requirements of God’s justice. This legal balancing of the ledgers is at the heart of this theory, which claims that Jesus died for legal satisfaction. It’s also worth mentioning that in this theory the notion of imputed righteousness is postulated.

This theory of the Atonement contrasts with Anselm’s Satisfaction Theory in that God is not satisfied with a debt of justice being paid by Jesus, but that God is satisfied with punishing Jesus in the place of mankind. The notion that the cross acts upon God, conditioning Him to forgiveness, originates from Anslems theory, but here in Penal Substitution the means are different. This theory of the Atonement is perhaps the most dominant today, especially among the Reformed, and the evangelical

I'd venture to say that anything that came about 1,500 years after Jesus' death must be questioned.

How come the double post?