Can a non-believer enter Heaven?

[JM]

The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

"Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
Catholic Catechism Paragraphs 841 & 1260

 

[mutzrein]

Ah - I understand now where that notion comes from.

Thankyou

 

[Heidi]

The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

"Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
Catholic Catechism Paragraphs 841 & 1260

Please read all of John chapter 3. Jesus tells us specifically that only those who believe in him will go to heaven. But, if you feel you know better than Christ what the truth is, then feel free to pass your wisdom along to others. But since he's shown the world his divine powers and you haven't, then you will be held accountable for your declaration that you do. ;-)

 

[Soma-Sight]

Please read all of John chapter 3. Jesus tells us specifically that only those who believe in him will go to heaven. But, if you feel you know better than Christ what the truth is, then feel free to pass your wisdom along to others. But since he's shown the world his divine powers and you haven't, then you will be held accountable for your declaration that you do.

Psychological traits of fundamentalism:

Low tolerance for ambiguity. Everything must be clear cut, black and white. Nothing can be "possibly true but unproven at this time, we're still studying it."

Distrust of their own judgment, or any other human being's judgment.

A low self-esteem that finds satisfaction in being one of the Elect, superior to all others. It seems to be particularly rewarding to know that rich people have a real hard time getting into Heaven.

Fear of the future. The driving motivation of fundamentalism appears to outsiders to be fear that oneself or the group one identifies with is losing power and prerequisites and is in danger from others who are gaining power. This is not how fundamentalists put it.

 

[Vic C.]

Heidi, Jason is quoting from the RCC Catechism, these are not his words.

8-)

No offense Heidi, but your theology suggests that God haphazardly chose a select few to be saved. This disregards the VERY strong possibility that HE has a plan for those souls that for whatever reason never heard the Good News or lived and died before Jesus.

 

[JM]

Psychological traits of liberalism:

Low tolerance for clarity. Everything must be covered in a cloud of ambiguity, everything is relative. Nothing can be "possibly proven as fact (especially from the Bible) at this time, we're still studying it†and “I’m tolerant of others beliefs, just not the fundamentalists.â€Â

Distrust of clear logic, everyone has ‘some truth’ and that truth (no matter contradictory to another) is still true. (Huhhh…)

A swelled self-esteem that finds satisfaction in ‘muddying’ the theological waters, and they feel superior to all others for doing so. It seems to be particularly rewarding to know that suicide bombers and any other Christ rejecters will somehow, someway sneak their way into heaven.

Fear of Biblical teaching. The driving motivation of liberalism appears to believers as fear that one day they’ll have to give an account of their actions. They’ve decided to hide behind a false pretence ‘that all religions lead to God’ and play fast and lose with morality, after all, ââ‚Å“the Bible is just an old book full of stories from a tribal war like peoples.â€Â

 

[JM]

Heidi, Jason is quoting from the RCC Catechism, these are not his words.

8-)

No offense Heidi, but your theology suggests that God haphazardly chose a select few to be saved. This disregards the VERY strong possibility that HE has a plan for those souls that for whatever reason never heard the Good News or lived and died before Jesus.

Was God haphazad, or was it planned? :wink: Does God give to everyman the same gifts or talents? Vic, howabout this, if God wanted to save the whole world, would God then provide a plan for the whole world to hear the Gospel before that person died? Did God supply an offering (Christ Jesus!) and not supply a way for the whole word to hear?

Love you brother,

j

 

[Heidi]

Please read all of John chapter 3. Jesus tells us specifically that only those who believe in him will go to heaven. But, if you feel you know better than Christ what the truth is, then feel free to pass your wisdom along to others. But since he's shown the world his divine powers and you haven't, then you will be held accountable for your declaration that you do.

Psychological traits of fundamentalism:

Low tolerance for ambiguity. Everything must be clear cut, black and white. Nothing can be "possibly true but unproven at this time, we're still studying it."

Distrust of their own judgment, or any other human being's judgment.

A low self-esteem that finds satisfaction in being one of the Elect, superior to all others. It seems to be particularly rewarding to know that rich people have a real hard time getting into Heaven.

Fear of the future. The driving motivation of fundamentalism appears to outsiders to be fear that oneself or the group one identifies with is losing power and prerequisites and is in danger from others who are gaining power. This is not how fundamentalists put it.

Jesus was the first true fundamentalist. He said; "He who is not with me is against me." The truth is black and white, friend. It is only the world that is gray because so many people don't know the truth. But Jesus does. All you have to do is believe him. And that is why he said we must have the faith of a child. Children do not twist, distort, or analyze. They simply believe. If you did also, then you would believe Jesus when he says that only those who believe in him will enter heaven. You either believe Jesus or you don't. It's that simple. ;-)

 

[Rick W]

I know where that post will lead Heidi. :wink:

What?!?! We aren't to use our minds to think?

Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Sure, use the mind but to Love Christ not refute Him.
Science is like that. Science is a God-given gift to man so man may see and know more of God's creation standing in ever-increasing awe of His glory and power.
But we don't do that. Instead we choose to use the mind not to love Him but to refute Him through the pride of our own conclusions that must support our rebellion in the first place.
We are also to use the mind to understand His Word as far as our individual minds will allow. The mind is a tool and depending on how it's used depends on what one decides to do from the start. Christ says to love Him with all of oneself, including the mind. And this with the faith as children have toward their parents.

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

Was doing some reading, so I thought I would supplement JM's statements.

It may be true that, just as we know that in former times some peoples were not admitted to the fellowship of the sons of God, so also today there are in the remotest parts of the world some nations who have not yet seen the light of the grace of the Saviour. But we have no doubt that in God's hidden judgement, for them also a time of calling has been appointed, when they will hear and accept the Gospel which now remaings unknown to them. Even now they receive that measure of general help which heaven has always bestowed on all men.
--St. Prosper of Aquitaine "The Call of All Nations" Bk. 2, Ch. 17

If He 'enlightens every man that comes into the world' (Jn. 1:9), how is it that so many continue unenlightened? For not all have known the majesty of Christ. How then does He 'light every man'? He enlightens all as far as in Him lies. But if some, wilfully closing the eyes of their mind, would not recieve the rays of that Light, their darkness arises not from the nature of the Light, but from their own wickedness, who wilfully deprive themselves of the gift.
--St. John Chrysostom "Homilies on St. John 8:1"

Good post JM!

 

[Bick]

My answer to the subject question is NO.

First of all because in my studies I find that only the evangel that Paul preached, which tells us that believers since the Acts period, are the ecclesia, the 'called out ones', the body of Christ, and are the only ones who will be caught away to enjoy the spiritual blessings in the heavenlies prepared by God. See Eph. 1-3.

Second, Jesus in His earthly ministry came to His own, Israel. He preached the gospel of the kingdom of the heavens, the hope of Israel. John the baptiser came first to prepare the way, preaching the baptism of repentence. And many hearts were turned to righteousness. Christ knew the hearts of the self righteous Jews and the nation as a whole. That is why He said in Matt. 15:24 "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." He sent the twelve not to the nations, not to the Samaritans, but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, see Matt. 10:5,6.
And this small group of believers, a remnant, will be resurrected to life on the earth to enjoy the glories of the Messianic Kingdom, and beyond.

God bless, Bick

 

[JM]

The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

"Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
Catholic Catechism Paragraphs 841 & 1260

Would someone whole adheres to the CCC gives us the 'quick and dirty' on these portions of catechism?

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

what do you mean by the quick and dirty. they seem pretty simple to me. that along with my citations...

 

[JM]

what do you mean by the quick and dirty. they seem pretty simple to me. that along with my citations...

I just wondered if a catholic could add to these statements, perhaps I quoted them out of context, or whatever. ;-)

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

well, there is a difference between being inside and outside. They look cogent to me, but they also fit into the big picture with me, so apart from that, i have no idea what they look like to others. perhaps one of the other catholics i see skulking around has something.

 

[bbas 64]

Good Day, JM

I would say no! The muslims to profess to hold to the faith of Abraham, I strongly disagree. I will sumbit they know nothing of the Faith of Abraham, the Roman Catholic church seems to agree that they hold to that faith also. I believe that is due to the lack of understanding of the Faith of Abraham, that the Roman Catholic church has.

"and together with us" ** GAG**

There was a debate last year on these parts of the Catechism, if you are interested in that debate let me know you can download the .mp3's for a couple of bucks. :angel:

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[ttg]

The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

"Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
Catholic Catechism Paragraphs 841 & 1260

Please read all of John chapter 3. Jesus tells us specifically that only those who believe in him will go to heaven. But, if you feel you know better than Christ what the truth is, then feel free to pass your wisdom along to others. But since he's shown the world his divine powers and you haven't, then you will be held accountable for your declaration that you do. ;-)

If a four-month old baby dies before accepting Christ is she condemned for all eternity? Is a Muslim who has been denied access to the teachings of Christianity to be condemned? What about a person lacking the mental ability to understand?

There is a difference between those who actively reject the teachings of Christ and those who are denied it through no fault of their own.

Is it your position that Jesus died for everyone's sins, or just those lucky to hear and understand his words?

I say it is a sin that you and I carry for not spreading the Good News, not a sin of those who do not hear it.

 

[Dave...]

Hope this helps, ttg. :D

The Salvation of Babies Who Die--Part 1
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/80-242.htm

The Salvation of Babies Who Die--Part 2
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/80-243.htm

 

[mutzrein]

If a four-month old baby dies before accepting Christ is she condemned for all eternity? Is a Muslim who has been denied access to the teachings of Christianity to be condemned? What about a person lacking the mental ability to understand?

Well you wouldn't think that these would be eternally condemned to hell but isn't this what Christendom teaches?

There is a difference between those who actively reject the teachings of Christ and those who are denied it through no fault of their own.

And the difference is?

Is it your position that Jesus died for everyone's sins, or just those lucky to hear and understand his words?

For me (while I'm not the person you directed this to) I have to agree with what Jesus said, "No-one knows the son except the Father, and no-one knows the the Father except the son and those to whom the son chooses to reveal him" and again he said, "no-one can come unto me unless the Father has enabled him"

I say it is a sin that you and I carry for not spreading the Good News, not a sin of those who do not hear it.

Mmmm - perhaps that is something that needs to be qualified. I certainly don't don't see sin in the that light.

Hey - love your avatar by the way

 

[DivineNames]

The Salvation of Babies Who Die--Part 2
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/80-243.htm

"we asked the question: who are we referring to when we talk about these infants, these little ones, these children who die and are saved? And the answer is this: those who have not reached sufficient, mature understanding to comprehend convincingly the issues of sin and salvation.

Let me say as a footnote that does not apply to the heathen. Adult heathen are caught up in the Romans 1 passage: “When they know God, they glorify Him not as God, become empty in their imaginations, create their own gods, and worship the creature more than the Creator.†We’re not talking about them; we’re talking about those who have not reached sufficient, mature understanding to comprehend the issues of sin and salvation."

(18) The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, (19) since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. (20) For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualitiesâ€â€his eternal power and divine natureâ€â€have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. (21) For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. (22) Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools (23) and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. (Romans 1:18-23)


Doesn't this actually suggest that non-Christians can be saved? What it claims, is that everyone has been given a kind of revelation, and so men are, "without excuse". This kind of revelation must presumably be enough to enable someone to respond and turn to God. Obviously some haven't responded, and are going to be punished, but many non-Christians may respond to this form of revelation.