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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Can a non-believer enter Heaven?
- Thread starter JM
- Start date
No one can enter heaven unless he is born again of the Holy Spirit. A 4 month old baby didn't do anything to deserve punishment so his sins cannot be used against him. But he also cannot receive forgiveness because he did nothing for which he should receive forgiveness. Therefore hell is not the anguish it would be for those who deliberately rejected Christ. My opinion is that the death of a 4 month old baby will be the same as before he was born. Nothingness. 
B
BradtheImpaler
Guest
Heidi said:No one can enter heaven unless he is born again of the Holy Spirit. A 4 month old baby didn't do anything to deserve punishment so his sins cannot be used against him. But he also cannot receive forgiveness because he did nothing for which he should receive forgiveness. Therefore hell is not the anguish it would be for those who deliberately rejected Christ. My opinion is that the death of a 4 month old baby will be the same as before he was born. Nothingness.
What about the soul/spirit being eternal and all that? What you are presenting here is basically "Annihilation" isn't it? Nothingness = annihilation. Did you make a doctrinal boo-boo or are you intentionally departing from orthodoxy a bit?
G
Guest
Guest
Heidi said:No one can enter heaven unless he is born again of the Holy Spirit. A 4 month old baby didn't do anything to deserve punishment so his sins cannot be used against him. But he also cannot receive forgiveness because he did nothing for which he should receive forgiveness. Therefore hell is not the anguish it would be for those who deliberately rejected Christ. My opinion is that the death of a 4 month old baby will be the same as before he was born. Nothingness.
Would you agree that the worst possible thing to happen to someone is that they would end up in Hell?
If that's the case, then, by your logic, the best possible thing you could do for someone is to kill him or her before they're old enough to do anything that would land them in hell. Wonder why we don't see more people doing this? :roll:
Cosmo said:Heidi said:No one can enter heaven unless he is born again of the Holy Spirit. A 4 month old baby didn't do anything to deserve punishment so his sins cannot be used against him. But he also cannot receive forgiveness because he did nothing for which he should receive forgiveness. Therefore hell is not the anguish it would be for those who deliberately rejected Christ. My opinion is that the death of a 4 month old baby will be the same as before he was born. Nothingness.
Would you agree that the worst possible thing to happen to someone is that they would end up in Hell?
If that's the case, then, by your logic, the best possible thing you could do for someone is to kill him or her before they're old enough to do anything that would land them in hell. Wonder why we don't see more people doing this? :roll:
Jesus makes it quite clear that no one can enter heaven unless he's born again of water and the Spirit. You either believe him or you don't. It's that simple.
Jesus also makes it clear that those who have not heard the word will be beaten with few blows. All that means is that they will not know the glories of the Spirit. But they will not suffer like those who knew their master's will and deliberately rejected it because they think they knew better than God.
There is justice in the universe. Do you think you deserve to have the same afterlife as a man like Hitler? :o Yet claiming that people should automatically go to heaven just because they are born or claiming that the same fate will befall everyone no matter what they do serves no justice, friend. ;-)
Vic C.
Member
Heidi,
What sin can a four month old commit that would cause it eternal hell or annihilation?
Not everything is taht simple; or is it?
What does this verse say to you?
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
To the Christian Universalist, it says all wil be saved. To them, it's "that simple".
Heidi, I'm not trying to put your beliefs down, I'm just trying to understand why you believe what you believe without the proverbial "Jesus said it... I believe it."
What sin can a four month old commit that would cause it eternal hell or annihilation?
Don't you think Jesus was speaking metaphorically... parable-like? I do.
Not everything is taht simple; or is it?
What does this verse say to you?
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
To the Christian Universalist, it says all wil be saved. To them, it's "that simple".
Are you 100% certain of his fate? I'm not. Are you basing his fate on how he led his life and what he did? We don't know if he made his peace with the Lord before he died, do we?
Heidi, I'm not trying to put your beliefs down, I'm just trying to understand why you believe what you believe without the proverbial "Jesus said it... I believe it."
D
DivineNames
Guest
Dave... said:Hope this helps, ttg.
The Salvation of Babies Who Die--Part 1
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/80-242.htm
The Salvation of Babies Who Die--Part 2
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/80-243.htm
Dave, do you believe that God wants everyone to be saved?
Are you 100% certain of his fate? I'm not. Are you basing his fate on how he led his life and what he did? We don't know if he made his peace with the Lord before he died, do we?Vic said:
Heidi, I'm not trying to put your beliefs down, I'm just trying to understand why you believe what you believe without the proverbial "Jesus said it... I believe it."[/quote:93b9f]
And what kind of remorse would a man like Hitler have to feel in order to come to Christ? How did he show that? And why would he commit suicide if he believed that God wouldn't give him any more than he could bear? Sorry, but the proof is in the pudding, my friend. Anyone who repented would want to give back what he was given, not run away from his sins.
And who do you believe for the words of eternal life and why? Why would you not believe Jesus? :o What did he do to show you he didn't know the truth? Why would you believe your own opinions instead of Christ's? :o
G
Guest
Guest
Heidi said:
No. Because I do not believe in your Jesus, it is not possible for me to either believe or not believe him. Do you, Heidi, believe your Tooth Fairy? Of course not - you don't think the Tooth Fairy exists, so the question is meaningless. So it is for me and your Jesus.
I cannot logically believe or not believe your Jesus.
Exactly. You avoided the question - why isn't it the best possible thing for a newborn for them to be killed before they are old enough to sin?
I do not believe in any afterlife, therefore the question is nonsensical.
I made no such claim. Reread my posts.
Yes, if by 'want' you mean 'desires'. Keeping in mind that His desire is separate from His decree.
On a side note, if we are saved by 100% grace, then why not children who, as God says, are innocent, not knowing their right from their left? Why must children do something that they cannot do, not because of sin, but because their minds have not developed enough to comprehend these things?
think about this...
At what point are we "under the law"?
This is the way I see it.
Romans 3:20 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
First a child must be able to comprehend the law, not the written law as in God's Word, but the law that is written on everyones hearts. When we understand that what we are doing is wrong and we do it anyways, we become accountable to the law.
Consider this also...
Romans 1:18-21 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,...
One must be able to comprehend the truth before one could suppress it.
What truth are we talking about?
...Because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, Because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Ones mind must be able to comprehend what God has sewn into ones unsaved heart, until then , he is called innocent, not knowing his right from his left.
So that's some of it. Hope this helps. I didn't want to derail this thread, but I guess it's too late. Sorry Jason.
Dave
God wants all to be saved as much as I want all my children to be saved. But God knows that each of us has to come to our own understanding of why we need Him or we would not recognize the degree of his love. He therefore gives us the option of seeking him or rejecting him. Forcing himself down out throats only makes us want to resist him all the more.
G
Guest
Guest
Heidi said:God wants all to be saved as much as I want all my children to be saved. But God knows that each of us has to come to our own understanding of why we need Him or we would not recognize the degree of his love. He therefore gives us the option of seeking him or rejecting him. Forcing himself down out throats only makes us want to resist him all the more.
This has no apparent connection to any subject matter from any poster in this thread. Instead of spouting off feel-good theology, how about you respond to some of the questions that have been asked of you?
D
DivineNames
Guest
Dave... said:
You believe that we don't have the ability to turn to God. It isn't down to free choice. If God desires that everyone be saved, why isn't this resulting in UR in your belief?
I knew this was coming. :-D Because his desire is seperate from His decree.
"There is a distinction between God's desire and His eternal saving purpose, which must transcend His desires. God does not want men to sin. He hates sin with all His being (Psalm 5:4, Psalm 45:7); thus, He hates it's consequences--eternal wickedness in hell. God does not want people to remain wicked forever in eternal remorse and hatred of of Himself. Yet, God, for His own glory, and to manifest the glory in wrath, chose to endure "vessels...prepared for destruction" for the supreme fulfillment of His will (Romans 9:22). In His eternal purpose, He chose to elect out of the world (John 17:6) and passed over the rest, leaving them to the consequences of their sin, unbelief, and rejection of Christ (cf. Romans 1:18-32). Ultimately, God's choices are determined by His sovereign, eternal purpose, not His desire."(JMSB)
Cosmo said:Heidi said:God wants all to be saved as much as I want all my children to be saved. But God knows that each of us has to come to our own understanding of why we need Him or we would not recognize the degree of his love. He therefore gives us the option of seeking him or rejecting him. Forcing himself down out throats only makes us want to resist him all the more.
This has no apparent connection to any subject matter from any poster in this thread. Instead of spouting off feel-good theology, how about you respond to some of the questions that have been asked of you?
Hello? :o I was responding to the poster who asked why God wants all to be saved yet all will not be saved. I'm explaining that just because God and we Christians want everyone to be saved doesn't mean that it's going to happen. So I did answer a question that was posed.
D
DivineNames
Guest
Dave... said:
Could you explain this distinction between what God desires, and God's purpose?
If God really wanted everyone to be saved, God could do it right? (If it doesn't involve free will on our part.) So it seems that if people aren't being saved, then God doesn't want them to be saved.
Is it morally good for God to choose to save some people? If so, would it be even more morally good to choose to save everyone?
DivineNames said:
I already explained that a few posts above yours. Again, of course God wants all to be saved! But what good would it do if people didn't understand why they needed him? They would simply see it as an entitlement because they were born which it is not. It is a gift from God and the giver always choose to whom he will give, otherwise, his gifts are meaningless. God is a just God and will not reward people who defy him and love to sin. And without sin in the world, no one would know what evil was or how bad life could be without God. Heaven would then be meaningless.
Even Solomon who had everything man could want said that it's all meaningless if the wicked go to the same place as the holy.
I can do better, I can give you an example using Jesus.
Luke 19:41-42 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it (desire), Saying, "If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes.(eternal purpose)
I think of it like this. If you have ten people who are all equally guilty of murder. Equal in every way. All have been sentenced to death by their own merit. The Judge, gives mercy in pardoning only three of the ten guilty people so "that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy". Does that make the remaining seven any less guilty, or any less deserving of death? As I quoted someone saying a while back, "If there is any hint of injustice in the divine elective discrimination (and we do not believe that there is), it falls not upon God's treatment of the reprobate but upon the elect. The redeemed man does not receive the divine wrath that is due to him as a sinner. Instead, he receives the gift of grace as the merits of Christ are reckoned to his account...."
The free will that I believe is Biblical...
"The compatibilist holds that every human and action has a sufficient cause outside of the human will. Freedom in the compatibilist sense is the contention that even if every choice we make and every act we perform is determined by forces outside ourselves, and ultimately by God's ordaining guidance, we are still free, for we still act according to our desires."
A more accurate question would be...is it morally wrong for God to pardon some of the guilty, but not all?
I would say no. As a side note, God's character determines what is just and right, even if we do not understand. In other words, there is no scale to judge God by, He, and His actions set the standard of what is right and good.
Dave