Can a non-believer enter Heaven?

[DivineNames]

I already explained that a few posts above yours. Again, of course God wants all to be saved! But what good would it do if people didn't understand why they needed him? They would simply see it as an entitlement because they were born which it is not. It is a gift from God and the giver always choose to whom he will give, otherwise, his gifts are meaningless. God is a just God and will not reward people who defy him and love to sin. And without sin in the world, no one would know what evil was or how bad life could be without God. Heaven would then be meaningless.

Even Solomon who had everything man could want said that it's all meaningless if the wicked go to the same place as the holy.

Heidi, I am guessing you don't have Calvinist leanings?

 

[DivineNames]

Could you explain this distinction between what God desires, and God's purpose?

I can do better, I can give you an example using Jesus.

Luke 19:41-42 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it (desire), Saying, "If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes.(eternal purpose)

According to you, God creates people knowing that they will not be saved, that it is impossible for them to be saved, that they have NO OPPORTUNITY at all to be saved. There is absolutely nothing those people could do so that they would be saved. And God knows that their inevitable future is to be tortured in hell for all eternity, because that is where God sends them.

In what way, exactly, does God "desire" that they be saved? Because that claim looks very very suspect!

 

[DivineNames]

The free will that I believe is Biblical...

"The compatibilist holds that every human and action has a sufficient cause outside of the human will. Freedom in the compatibilist sense is the contention that even if every choice we make and every act we perform is determined by forces outside ourselves, and ultimately by God's ordaining guidance, we are still free, for we still act according to our desires."

You do know that the free will defence against evil depends on an incompatibilist view of freedom? If determinism is compatible with human freedom, then God could have created free creatures who always did what was good.

If you destroy the free will defence against evil, do you think this is really helping Christianity?

(This is not about whether people are responsible for evil, that is a different issue. You would presumably claim that people are still responsible for evil even if their behaviour is determined, but what I am concerned with here is the free will defence used to explain the existence of evil in the world.)

 

[DivineNames]

The free will that I believe is Biblical...

"The compatibilist holds that every human and action has a sufficient cause outside of the human will. Freedom in the compatibilist sense is the contention that even if every choice we make and every act we perform is determined by forces outside ourselves, and ultimately by God's ordaining guidance, we are still free, for we still act according to our desires."

Dave, if every act of God were determined, would God be truly free?

Do you believe that we are made in the image of God? Do you believe that our freedom is a reflection of God's freedom?

 

[Dave...]

According to you, God creates people knowing that they will not be saved, that it is impossible for them to be saved, that they have NO OPPORTUNITY at all to be saved. There is absolutely nothing those people could do so that they would be saved. And God knows that their inevitable future is to be tortured in hell for all eternity, because that is where God sends them.

Romans 8:28-29 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

In what way, exactly, does God "desire" that they be saved? Because that claim looks very very suspect!

Desire is desire. I don't know how to add to that to make any more clear. His Word says it, And I believe it. It's that simple.

You do know that the free will defence against evil depends on an incompatibilist view of freedom? If determinism is compatible with human freedom, then God could have created free creatures who always did what was good.

If you destroy the free will defence against evil, do you think this is really helping Christianity?

(This is not about whether people are responsible for evil, that is a different issue. You would presumably claim that people are still responsible for evil even if their behaviour is determined, but what I am concerned with here is the free will defence used to explain the existence of evil in the world.)

You may want to look at the thread called 'Compatibilism vs. incompadibilism'

It should be on the first or second page in this forum.

Dave, if every act of God were determined, would God be truly free?

Do you believe that we are made in the image of God? Do you believe that our freedom is a reflection of God's freedom?

Do you believe the Bible?

Men are not robots, that was never the issue, that is the straw man that people keep using when they cannot accept what the truth is.

Yes we are made in the image of God. In the Biblical sense of freedom, we are only free in Christ. Man is born a slave to his sinful nature.

Again, see the thread called 'Compatibilism vs. incompadibilism'

Dave

 

[DivineNames]

Desire is desire. I don't know how to add to that to make any more clear. His Word says it, And I believe it. It's that simple.

What you believe isn't the issue. Why I would like an explanation from you, is so the coherence of this notion can be looked at.

Could you explain this distinction between what God desires, and God's purpose?

Explain the distinction. Explain in what way, exactly, God desires that they be saved. Explain God's purpose.

 

[DivineNames]

Dave, if every act of God were determined, would God be truly free?

Do you believe that we are made in the image of God? Do you believe that our freedom is a reflection of God's freedom?

Do you believe the Bible?

Men are not robots, that was never the issue, that is the straw man that people keep using when they cannot accept what the truth is.

Yes we are made in the image of God. In the Biblical sense of freedom, we are only free in Christ. Man is born a slave to his sinful nature.

Does the Bible have any special authority for me? No.

You didn't answer the question about whether God would be truly free if every act of his were determined. Do you believe God would be free?

 

[Dave...]

Does the Bible have any special authority for me? No.

I don't want to argue with your feelings. Jesus is Lord.

 

[DivineNames]

I don't want to argue with your feelings. Jesus is Lord.

Dave, if you can't explain your belief system in such a way as to show it to be consistent, why don't you just say so?

 

[DivineNames]

You do know that the free will defence against evil depends on an incompatibilist view of freedom? If determinism is compatible with human freedom, then God could have created free creatures who always did what was good.

If you destroy the free will defence against evil, do you think this is really helping Christianity?

(This is not about whether people are responsible for evil, that is a different issue. You would presumably claim that people are still responsible for evil even if their behaviour is determined, but what I am concerned with here is the free will defence used to explain the existence of evil in the world.)

You may want to look at the thread called 'Compatibilism vs. incompadibilism'

It should be on the first or second page in this forum.

I have looked at the thread.

The claim that you have made, that determinism is compatible with human freedom, destroys the "free will defence". Do you think this is helping Christianity?

Do you realize the importance of this issue? Do you realize how much damage is done to Christianity?

 

[Dave...]

God commands us to preach a simple message to unbelievers. There are many reasons for this, one reason being that it pleases Him to do it this way, another being that these things are spiritually discerned.

My source of truth is the Bible, yours is not, inevitably, all are discussion will come back to this. Jesus is Lord.

Dave

 

[DivineNames]

My source of truth is the Bible, yours is not, inevitably, all are discussion will come back to this. Jesus is Lord.

We don't need to agree on whether the Bible is the word of God to have a discussion on an issue like the free will defence.

 

[Drew]

"The compatibilist holds that every human and action has a sufficient cause outside of the human will. Freedom in the compatibilist sense is the contention that even if every choice we make and every act we perform is determined by forces outside ourselves, and ultimately by God's ordaining guidance, we are still free, for we still act according to our desires."

I have not yet encountered a coherent explanation of this position. If "every choice we make and every act we perform is determined by forces outside ourselves", how can we possibly be free? I suspect that you did not intend to say "outside ourselves" but maybe "outside the human will" as you also write in the above quote. If our actions are fully determined outside ourselves, then we simply cannot be free, in any meaningful sense, to do anything at all. We would be, in effect, puppets.

 

[DivineNames]

The claim that you have made, that determinism is compatible with human freedom, destroys the "free will defence". Do you think this is helping Christianity?

Do you realize the importance of this issue? Do you realize how much damage is done to Christianity?

Dave, I do hope you are going to respond to this issue. Your position does some serious damage to Christianity. If you just want to run away and avoid the issue, to me this all looks like very shoddy behaviour.

 

[Drew]

Hi DN:

Not sure I understand exactly what your concern is in respect to the "free will" issue. I have yet to understand exactly what Dave means when he talks about free will. As you probably know, I think that a fully sovereign God is incompatible with human free will, and I think the correct scriptural (and logical) position is to attribute some free will to man and accept that God is not 100 % sovereign over each and every event in the Universe - there are some variable he does not fully control.

Is your concern that you see Dave as holding a position that forces him to deny the existence of free will, and that you think we need to have free will in order to make the overall "system" of Christian belief work?

 

[DivineNames]

Is your concern that you see Dave as holding a position that forces him to deny the existence of free will

Not really. (Although I certainly believe that determinism is incompatible with free will.)

The free will defence against evil depends on-

(a) incompatiblist view of freedom
(b) God's omnipotence including only what is logically possible.

Without (a) and (b) it could be the case that God creates free creatures who always do what is good.

If you don't get what I am saying, say, and I will provide more explanation.

 

[mutzrein]

Just a question here to ponder. How much free will does a child have before it is born?

 

[Vic C.]

Just a question here to ponder. How much free will does a child have before it is born?

Interesting question... Zero!

How much cognitive thought (self-awareness) does an unborn posscess?

 

[Jay T]

[ Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved.

This statement is an Oxymoron.
The truth, can only be found in the Bible.
Only the word of God can save anyone... 1 Peter 1:23 "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever".

 

[John the Baptist]

Yes I realise but it seems to be the predominant belief does it not? I mean do you believe it?

Vic wrote:
mutzrein wrote:
ttg wrote:

There is a difference between those who actively reject the teachings of Christ and those who are denied it through no fault of their own.


And the difference is?

Fair question. There is a "sin unto death". See 1 John 5:16. While that in itself may be vague, Matthew 12:31-32 sheds more light on this matter.

Unfortunately so little is understood it seems.


*****
John here: There will be many souls saved who had never even heard of the Everlasting Gospel. That means that they had never even heard of Christ as we have had the opportunity to do!

We can only be held accountable for the knowledge that one gets from God. And the ones of Romans 2:14-15 had accepted all of this knowledge from God's nature alone! Notice that they were Born Again. But first you folk would need to know how the Word of God told us that, huh? : Compare 2 Corinthians 3:3 & Hebrews 10:15-16 & Hebrews 8:10.

Read Romans 2:14-15 in the King James & see if you can let the Holy Spirit teach you? Romans 8:14

Then when one has the Eternal Required Covenant Recreated into ones mind by the Born Again Miracle, as one poster posted up the 1 John 5:15-16 with the remark of the sin unto death, that it was just kind of passed over with no understanding given? Well, all the Born Again are done so at their full surrender! John 10:16, and the Revelation 18:4 few also, but they were left with this eternal decision to make!! Yet, these on subject ones are recreated Romans 8:1 perfect, yet not perfectly MATURED!! OK?

These ones are now & only now Holy Spirit 'LED' Romans 8:14. Led means what? The sin unto death is when anyone who accepted the God of their knowledge will then need to follow the Holy Spirit leading until they are perfectly mature in His Obedience REQUIREMENT! Acts 5:32 Safe to safe! Nahum 1:9

All of us'ins :fadein: will either be led into following all Truth into PERFECT UNITY, or we will [REVOLT] to be eternally lost, period!! Genesis 6:3 The KNOWLEDGE is ours for the 'reading!' Matthew 4:4 And the power is ours to be used as the ETERNAL PROVISIONS to Obey the Master! Philippians 4:13 & 2 Corinthians 12:9

And I might just add, that most on this forum have been blessed with more Light & Truth to be Led into that most of the ones in the world!! And [we] are accountable to live it!!! See Luke 12:47-48 for the Holy Spirit Blasphemers. :