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Can man change Gods Law?

reddogs

Member
There are many people that say they lift up Christ, yet scorn and reject Gods Law which comes from love. It is nothing but a snare from evil they have fallen into which has been set up to excuse sin, the Law shows Gods love for man in His gift of the Sabbath and how to love God back and our fellowman, and by showing us His love in sending prophets and teachers to explain and illustrate His Law. Here is a excellent explanation of this issue:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 5:17

"What a contrast between the words of Christ, and the language of those who claim that he came to abrogate the law of God and to do away with the Old Testament. Our Saviour, who knew all things, understood the wiles of Satan, the snares by which he would seek to entrap the children of men, and so made this positive statement to meet the questioning doubts and the blind unbelief of all coming time.

But there is a law which was abolished, which Christ "took out of the way, nailing it to his cross." Paul calls it "the law of commandments contained in ordinances." This ceremonial law, given by God through Moses, with its sacrifices and ordinances, was to be binding upon the Hebrews until type met antitype in the death of Christ as the Lamb of God to take away the sin of the world. Then all the sacrificial offerings and services were to be abolished. Paul and the other apostles labored to show this, and resolutely withstood those Judaizing teachers who declared that Christians should observe the ceremonial law.

Christ himself declares that he came not to destroy the law of ten precepts, which was spoken from Sinai. He says, "Verily I say unto you,"-- making the assertion as emphatic as possible,--"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled." Here he teaches not merely what the claims of God's law had been and were then, but that these claims should hold so long as the heavens and the earth remain. This testimony should forever settle the question. The law of God is as immutable as his throne. It will maintain its claims upon all mankind in all ages, unchanged by time or place or circumstances. The ritual system was of altogether a different character, and typified the death of Christ as a sacrifice for the broken precepts of the moral law. "I am not come to destroy," Christ says, "but to fulfill,"--"to magnify the law and make it honorable," as Isaiah, hundreds of years before, had prophesied respecting the Messiah's work.

"To fulfill the law." In his own life the Saviour gave the children of men an example of perfect obedience. In his teachings he made clear and distinct every precept of the divine law; he swept away the rubbish of erroneous tradition with which the Jews had encumbered it; he illustrated and enforced its principles, and showed in all its particulars the length and breadth and height and depth of the righteousness required by the law of God.

The Pharisees were dissatisfied with the teachings of Christ. The practical godliness which he enjoined condemned them. They desired him to dwell upon the external observances of the ceremonial law, and the customs and traditions of the fathers. But Jesus taught the spiritual nature of the law and made clear its far-reaching claims. Love to God and to men must live in the heart and control the life, as the spring of every thought and every action.

There is perfect harmony between the law of God and the gospel of Jesus Christ. "I and my Father are one," says the great Teacher. The gospel is the good news of grace, or favor, by which man may be released from the condemnation of sin, and enabled to render acceptable obedience to the law. The gospel points to the moral code as a rule of life. That law, by its demands for undeviating obedience, is continually pointing the sinner to the gospel for pardon and peace. Says the great apostle, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid. Yea, we establish the law." And again he declares that the "law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." Enjoining supreme love to God, and equal love to our fellow-men, it is indispensable alike to human happiness and the glory of God.

There are persons professing to be ministers of Christ, who declare with the utmost assurance that no man ever did or ever can keep the law of God. But, according to the Scriptures, Christ "took upon himself our nature," and "was made in fashion as a man." He was man's example, man's representative, and he declares, "I have kept my Father's commandments." All who are in Christ will follow the example of Christ. All who justify the sinner in his transgression of God's law belong to that class of whom our Saviour said, "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of Heaven." They can have no part with Him who came to magnify the law and make it honorable. They are deceiving the people with their sophistry, saying to the sinner, "It shall be well with thee," when God has declared, "The soul that sinneth [transgresseth the law] it shall die."...

Christ foresaw that men would not only break the commandments of God themselves, but would teach others to break them. Some are not content with doing this by example; they defend sin, and pervert the word of God to justify the transgressor. Such persons will have no part with the people of God. But the greatest guilt rests upon the professed watchmen, who do not hesitate to speak evil of the law, and even to make those who are ignorant of the Bible believe that they are fallen from grace if they keep it. "All we have to do," say they, "is to believe in Christ, come to Christ." But they forget that when Christ came the people accepted, repented and turned from sin.

The most fatal delusion of the Christian world in this generation is, that in pouring contempt on the law of God they think they are exalting Christ. What a position! It was Christ who spoke the law from Sinai. It was Christ who gave the law to Moses, engraven on tables of stone. It was his Father's law; and Christ says, "I and my Father are one." The Pharisees held the reverse of the modern position, but were in just as great an error. They rejected Christ, but exalted the law. And it makes little difference which position is taken, so long as we ignore the true one,--that faith in Christ must be accompanied by obedience to the law of God......God's law is a copy of His mind and will. The sins forbidden there could never find a place in Heaven. It was love that prompted God to express his will in the ten precepts of the decalogue. Afterward he showed his love for man by sending prophets and teachers to explain and illustrate his holy Law. God has given man a complete rule of life in his law. Obeyed, man shall live by it, through the merits of Christ. Transgressed, it has power to condemn. The law sends men to Christ, and Christ points them back to the Law.....
 
Wonderful post. :thumbsup

RE: ".....faith in Christ must be accompanied by obedience to the law of God....."



AMEN! A person does not continue/remain in Christ if s/he disobeys His commandments. Matthew 19:16-19

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

1 John 2:6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

1 Peter 5:14 Greet one another with a kiss of love. Peace to you all who are in Christ Jesus. Amen.

All Christians who claim that they are saved and/or born again and who do not obey God's commandments will hear this at their judgment: Luke 13:23-27, Matthew 7:20-23

No, man cannot change God's law/commandments.
 
There are TWO Covenants.

One of Promise.

One against the works of the flesh.

Both are fully valid and applicable to every believer. Neither can be annulled, nor is it possible.

The only question is 'how one views them.'

Every believer 'likes' the First Covenant, the Covenant of Promise.

Every believer 'divides' on the SECOND Covenant.

Therein resides the difficulties. The fact of division serves to prove the validity of the SECOND Covenant as well.

Every Word of God is True and Valid. "It is written." Can not and will not change or pass away.

s
 
christ fulfilled the law but to say that you gentiles are under the ten commandments must also logically conclude the circumision.

read jeremiah 31 and also ponder that the 613 laws also werent from the pharisees but also from moses and also when we follow christ there are archtypes of things we do that the enemiies of isreal represent. amalek=satan .

the torah is meant for the children of isreal and the noahide laws were for the gentiles. when the church was asked this question they basically refered back to the noahide laws.
 
Can man change Gods Law?

Wouldn’t a more appropriate question be,

Can God change God’s Law?

Is there more than one Law? Is there one Law for Jews and another Law for Gentiles? And since the Gentiles are such a diverse group, is there a different Law for each Gentile community? Which leads us to ask, how many different sets of Laws are there, and how many are God’s Laws and how many are man’s laws?

Did God change his own law at the turn of the New Covenant?

Is there one Law for Jews and another Law for Christians? And considering the diversity of Christian communities, are there different Laws regarding each Christian community?

What should we think of a God who changes his own Laws? What should we think of a God who has different Laws for individuals depending on the person and when the person lived?

Which set of Laws is God under, or is he Lawless? Is God a Law unto himself? Is God above the Law, and the idea of Law? In what sense are we to be, or can we be perfect, as God is perfect? Or does Law even have anything to do with perfection?

In what way can Jesus, if he is God, be an example of Law to his followers? In what way can we say that Jesus is sinless, if he is a God who can change his own Law to suit his own purposes? And what does that mean in regard to Jesus fulfilling the Law? Which Law did he fulfill, the Law of Moses, the Law of God, or some other Law of his own making?

If the pre Jews had one Law, if the Jews had a different Law unto themselves, and the post Jews have a different Law or different Laws, and the Christians can have different Laws depending on who you ask..... Assuming there is one Lawgiver per each set of Laws, how many Lawgivers, how many Gods, are there?

FC
 
ah i can answer this in private. i wont post what the sages say on the law openly as it was for them isrealites when they were redeemed from sin.
 
There are TWO Covenants.

One of Promise.

One against the works of the flesh.

Both are fully valid and applicable to every believer. Neither can be annulled, nor is it possible.

The only question is 'how one views them.'

Every believer 'likes' the First Covenant, the Covenant of Promise.

Every believer 'divides' on the SECOND Covenant.

Therein resides the difficulties. The fact of division serves to prove the validity of the SECOND Covenant as well.

Every Word of God is True and Valid. "It is written." Can not and will not change or pass away.

s

Matthew 5:17-18 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Jesus Christ fulfilled every jot and every tittle of the Old Covenant. He finished it and replaced it with His New Covenant.

Luke 24:44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.â€

Jesus Christ fulfilled the FIRST COVENANT by His life, ministry, death on the cross, and subsequent resurrection. "It is finished," Jesus Christ declared on the cross as He died. He finished/fulfilled and replaced the FIRST COVENANT with His NEW, better COVENANT when He died. His New Covenant (Testament) between God and man was ratified with His own blood.

Hebrews 7:22 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.

Hebrews 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

Hebrews 9:16-18 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

Matthew 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


The Old Testament/Covenant (law, psalms, prophets) is summarized as:

Matthew 22:36-40 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?†37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.â€

The New Testament/Covenant is summarized as:

Romans 13:8-10 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,†“You shall not murder,†“You shall not steal,†“You shall not bear false witness,†“You shall not covet,†and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.†10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.â€

James 2:8-9 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,†you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.


This law of love or royal law commanded in both the Old and New Covenants is what will judge us when we die. No person loves God unless he loves his neighbor also.

Eternal life is promised only to those who love God.

James 1:12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

James 2:5 Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.


Christians who do not obey God's commandments will not inherit eternal life. These disobedient Christians are liars when they say that they love God.

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,†and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

What happens to all liars?

Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

All liars spend eternity in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone also known as hell.
 
There is a covenant written against 'all' works of the flesh.

That covenant is and remains against those works in all, and therefore is against 'all' in that manner.

It is this covenant that makes us understand that we are all 'sinners.'

We then have judgment from that covenant. The judgment is sin.

We are led to Christ and we fall upon our Rock to be broken from those works and to receive His Divine Mercy.

Jesus laid out this exact track:

Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law,

judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

s
 
There is a covenant written against 'all' works of the flesh.

That covenant is and remains against those works in all, and therefore is against 'all' in that manner.

It is this covenant that makes us understand that we are all 'sinners.'

We then have judgment from that covenant. The judgment is sin.

We are led to Christ and we fall upon our Rock to be broken from those works and to receive His Divine Mercy.

Jesus laid out this exact track:

Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law,

judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

s

No human good works and no works of the Law of Moses could redeem us from Adam's sin and so mankind had no possibility of inheriting eternal life after death.

Jesus, because He was both God and Man, mediated our reconciliation with God when He redeemed us from Adam's sin by His death on the cross. This redemption was His gift to mankind and now we again have the possibility of inheriting eternal life.

The New Covenant is not a covenant against all works. Good works are actually mandated by this New Covenant to show proof of a person's faith in Jesus' New Covenant. A redeemed person who does not do good works to show his love for both God and man will not inherit eternal life.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.


Works matter. Our own evil works condemn us to hell. Our own good works approve us for inheriting eternal life.

John 5:28-30 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
 
No human good works and no works of the Law of Moses could redeem us from Adam's sin and so mankind had no possibility of inheriting eternal life after death.

Jesus, because He was both God and Man, mediated our reconciliation with God when He redeemed us from Adam's sin by His death on the cross. This redemption was His gift to mankind and now we again have the possibility of inheriting eternal life.

The New Covenant is not a covenant against all works. Good works are actually mandated by this New Covenant to show proof of a person's faith in Jesus' New Covenant. A redeemed person who does not do good works to show his love for both God and man will not inherit eternal life.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.


Works matter. Our own evil works condemn us to hell. Our own good works approve us for inheriting eternal life.

John 5:28-30 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

Perhaps you are not fully authorized to speak as you have delegated that to some other person?

s
 
Perhaps you are not fully authorized to speak as you have delegated that to some other person?

s

FYI: I have no trouble defending my own personal beliefs using Scripture.

Perhaps you are unable to adequately defend your own beliefs about works using Scripture and that is why you are being rude and condescending to me?
 
FYI: I have no trouble defending my own personal beliefs using Scripture.

Perhaps you are unable to adequately defend your own beliefs about works using Scripture and that is why you are being rude and condescending to me?

What might those beliefs about works you say are mine be exactly?
 
I can deduce that you do not share my beliefs. :)

It is very unlikely that 'any' given heart reflects identically. All reflections are by nature of the reflector, imperfect.

Please enlighten us and use the Scriptures to back up your own beliefs about works.

I don't use 'works' to condemn fruit production nor do I believe God does.

s
 
I don't use 'works' to condemn fruit production nor do I believe God does.

s

God approves people for eternal life based on their fruit. People who produce either bad/evil fruit or no fruit are not approved for eternal life and they do not receive the crown of eternal life.

John 15:1-6 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."


A person (branch) cannot be cast out unless first he was attached to the Vine (Jesus).

So Christians who do not produce good fruit are cast out and they do not inherit eternal life. They are not approved to receive the crown of life. Instead, these evil Christians are thrown into the fire of hell.
 
God approves people for eternal life based on their fruit. People who produce either bad/evil fruit or no fruit are not approved for eternal life and they do not receive the crown of eternal life.

I've always found it a little disingenuous for any of us to say 'we only produce good fruit' as I don't believe that is a 'truthful' statement.

So Christians who do not produce good fruit are cast out and they do not inherit eternal life. They are not approved to receive the crown of life. Instead, these evil Christians are thrown into the fire of hell.[/QUOTE]

See previous statement of fact or claim always and only good fruit. Speaking truthfully is also a fruit.

Ephesians 5:9
(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth

s
 
Jesus said the law is meant to serve man not man meant to serve the law. Does this factor into the topic of this thread?
 
I've always found it a little disingenuous for any of us to say 'we only produce good fruit' as I don't believe that is a 'truthful' statement.

Christians who claim that they do not ever sin are liars.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

So, according to John, no one of his flock was sinless.

Proverbs 24:16 For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

A righteous man, when he falls (sins a venial sin), immediately repents. He does his best to not sin. A wicked man does not repent when he sins (commits adultery, fornication, etc.) A wicked man enjoys his sin and has no desire to repent. He prefers to sin rather than to obey God's commandments.

This is why the author of Hebrews, using hyperbole, states this warning:

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

This is why John states:

1 John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.

Sin leading to death, also called mortal sin, is sin that causes spiritual death. This type of sin severs the relationship between a born again Christian and God. Sin not leading to death, also called venial sin, does not cause spiritual death and so it does not sever the relationship between a born again Christian and God. See also the RSV Bible for 1 John 5:16

1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

John explains what happens to all liars who do not repent before death:

Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

So, what matters for salvation after becoming born again is the degree of seriousness of the sin that a person commits. The degree of seriousness of the sin committed corresponds to the degree of punishment that will be meted out.

Jesus explains this:

Matthew 5:21-24 You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. NJKV

The Sanhedrin council had the power to put a person in prison for a certain period of time for infractions of the law. God alone has the power to condemn a sinful person to hell.

The degree of seriousness of the sin determines whether the person is in danger of hell fire or not.

The degree of punishment in hell is also determined by the seriousness of the sins committed.

Luke 20:46-47 (ESV) “Beware of the scribes, who like to walk around in long robes, and love greetings in the marketplaces and the best seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at feasts, 47 who devour widows' houses and for a pretense make long prayers. They will receive the greater condemnation.”

John 5:14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you.”

2 Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.


It is better for a person to not become a Christian than to become one and then return to his former sinful lifestyle. He will not inherit eternal life and his punishment in hell will be worse for him than if he had never believed.

We are warned:

Romans 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

1 Peter 5:8-9 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world.

Revelation 2:10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.


Born again Christians must remain faithful in obedience to God's commandments until death if they desire to inherit eternal life. If they fall away from the faith because of spiritually deadly or mortal sin, they must repent before death or else they will be condemned to hell fire after they die.

Speaking truthfully is also a fruit.

Ephesians 5:9
(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth

s

I agree.

Even every idle word a person speaks will be judged.

Matthew 12:35-37 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things. 36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
 
Jesus said the law is meant to serve man not man meant to serve the law. Does this factor into the topic of this thread?

What matters to both God and man is the man's salvation and his well-being. The Law when used to help a man attain salvation serves man. Religious man-made laws which do not serve these good purposes are worthless.

Mark 7:10-13 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

Luke 13:13-17, Luke 6:1-5
 
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