Can the Bible be understood apart from interpretation?

[Mysteryman]

i wonder if drew thinks that if one stops and backslides from good works, is there any repentance and forgiveness for this?

Sure there is repentance and forgiveness. Guys, your issue is with Paul, not me. I did not write Romans 2. And I did not write Romans 8. I just take Paul at his word, that's all.

Translators wrote Romans 2:7, so your argument is with them not us ! And you claim you don't have any of the originals at your disposal. So then your argument went to the greek texts, as if they have authority over the originals, in some way. Then you ignore Ephesians 5:5. Then you ignore the Spirit of truth.

You are suggesting that the way Romans 2:7 is written within our translation is without error. Prove it ! Show us the orignals !

And since you can't, it then become pure speculation on your part. Thus your own private interpretation is based souly upon the way our translations were written. Totally disregarding the fact that the scriptures can not contradict themselves !

 

[glorydaz]

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Clearly, Paul is talking to all men...not just the Jews with the law of Moses, but the Gentiles as well. He is the God of all men. To claim Paul is talking about the law of Moses alone is error.

No, it is not error.

Here is Romans 3:19 in the NASB:

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
Now people will argue that Paul cannot mean “Torah†here when he uses the tem “lawâ€. That argument goes like this: The “so that†connective strongly implies that “law†is something that all mankind is under. So since Torah is for Jews only, Paul must be referring here to some general principle of law, and not Torah.

I think that this is a mistake for at least three reasons:

1. Paul almost always uses the word “Law†to denote the Law of Moses, so why we would he do otherwise here?

2. The phrase “it says to those under the law†strongly suggests that he is talking about a “law†that is limited in its applicability. Otherwise, this qualifier is entirely unnecessary;

3. The context provided by verses 1-18 support a “Torah†reading, specific to Jews, for the
word “lawâ€

I will not make the case for point number 1 right here – that would be too lengthy a treatment and that case is made elsewhere. Point 2, I suggest, requires no further elaboration. So I now turn to point number 3 in relation to the understandable objection that it seems that the “so that the whole world….†clause makes it clear that this is some kind of universal law.

So why does he then talk about the whole world being accountable to God if “law†here is Torah, which is for Jews only. One needs to look at the preceding 18 verses where Paul has engaged in separate treatments of Jew and Gentile being sinners.
Here is the important point: He has just finished (in verses 9-18) an argument that the Gentile is a sinner just like the Jew. So his statement about the whole world being accountable is not only in relation to what he has just written about the Law - that could not be true since the Gentiles were never under the Law - but it is rather the capstone of his whole argument.

So Paul's basic point is this:

1. The Jews have been faithless (verses 1-8);

2. The Gentiles, too, are sinners (verses 9-18);

3. While the Law speaks only to those under the Law - the Jews - the whole world nevertheless stands condemned before God.

The whole world can't stand condemned unless there is a law. By the law is the knowledge of sin, so how can the whole world be condemned if there no law whatsoever? Your denial of the eternal moral law of God has gotten you into a pickle, Drew. Paul already clearly explained why all men are without excuse...because God's law is written on the conscience of all men. That law has been around from the beginning.

Read the verses you put forth...."EVERY MOUTH MAY BE STOPPED, AND ALL THE WORLD MAY BECOME GUILTY BEFORE GOD...NO FLESH IS JUSTIFIED IN HIS SIGHT. You"re "out-thinking" yourself and trying to make Paul say something he isn't. You have to explain so much that needs no explanation. It's clear as a bell as it's written.

Man is without excuse.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Do you think Paul is saying all of this just so you can ignore it?

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

 

[jasoncran]

the nature of doing what the law says is sin, not the knowledge of how to do it. aka the tabula rasa.

 

[Free]

What is the point for God giving the Spirit of truth in us, if the truth does not come through the Spirit of truth ?

I no longer believe you are a serious poster, so I will not be interacting with you further (unless you modify your position). It is impossible to have a discussion with someone who argues that God has given him a "rewrite" of Romans 2:7 that has been hidden from the rest of the world.

Hi

I know it is impossible to kick against the pricks. And I didn't rewrite anything ! All I did is replace that which was omitted from the orignals ! Which btw, I gave you Ephesians 5:5 as a strong example of the truth. Yet, you ignored the truth.

Again, on what basis can you make such a claim?

i wonder if drew thinks that if one stops and backslides from good works, is there any repentance and forgiveness for this?

Sure there is repentance and forgiveness. Guys, your issue is with Paul, not me. I did not write Romans 2. And I did not write Romans 8. I just take Paul at his word, that's all.

Translators wrote Romans 2:7, so your argument is with them not us ! And you claim you don't have any of the originals at your disposal. So then your argument went to the greek texts, as if they have authority over the originals, in some way. Then you ignore Ephesians 5:5. Then you ignore the Spirit of truth.

You are suggesting that the way Romans 2:7 is written within our translation is without error. Prove it ! Show us the orignals !

And since you can't, it then become pure speculation on your part. Thus your own private interpretation is based souly upon the way our translations were written. Totally disregarding the fact that the scriptures can not contradict themselves !

I'm curious Mysterman, just how do you know that Drew can't show you originals? On what basis can you make this claim?

 

[ivdavid]

Drew,

The question right now is based on who claims glory for salvation? Is it God alone or God + man? If man's ability to earn his righteousness through good works is propagated as the sole criteria to enter heaven, then it seems to be glorifying man. On the other hand, as Scripture says - we have righteousness in Christ alone. This is imputed to us through faith. We have no self-righteousness to boast about - this way, God alone is glorified.
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

I think these points have already been raised but they have not yet been answered satisfactorily. And Abraham was not bound by the Torah, Mosaic Law. Neither was he bound by circumcision. So your differentiation on those lines seem unfounded.


You yourself have said that all good works are generated by the Holy Spirit. If so, then are we going to be justified on the basis of the Spirit's works? No, i know that's not what you meant. The Spirit enables us to respond in faith through love which is constantly evidenced by good works. It's like "good works" is contained in the superset "faith by grace". Without faith there is no good works - hence faith is the determining criteria. Then again, faith cannot even be defined without these evidenced works, so essentially, good works cannot be separated from faith but faith is the determining criteria, not works.

I think you're mixing up judging criteria and the actual judgement. For eg: say a king demands loyalty from all his subjects. Now loyalty is the sole judging criteria of staying in the good books of the king. A minister may be loyal to the king and yet out of negligence, may have been the cause for some secret to have got leaked out. What would the king do? He might forgive the repentant minister based on his loyalty and not the actual work. But say, another minister intentionally plotted and leaked out secrets. This proves that he was never loyal to the king. The judging criteria is invoked but that minister would be judged based on that one event of leaking out secrets. He's judged on his works but the judging criteria was his loyalty. Now, he cannot argue against the king about why he gets to be imprisoned while the first minister gets to be forgiven. That is the king's grace. It's based on loyalty and not works, though works are judged upon. Maybe the first minister may lose out on the responsibility to protect secrets though he may remain in the good books of the king. Hope this crude example somewhat helps...

So your interpretation of Romans 2:6-7 is valid in the sense that we might be judged according to our specific deeds but the judging criteria is our faith in God and not our works. Judging criteria is different from actual judgement point.


Look at the other side, If it's my works that would decide if I'm justified or not, then what did Christ accomplish on the cross?
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
Nay, I believe that justification is based on faith.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Faith is the justifying criteria and we were already justified at regeneration through saving faith. Of course, this justification is an ongoing process dependent on our faith through love but since we believe in Jesus throughout, we stand assured of our justification and salvation. You seemed to agree here too.
Our righteousness is found in Christ alone. His sinless life and perfect sacrifice has met the demands of God's laws. His righteousness is imputed to us - so why do we strive for ours - nay, we lead righteous lives as led by the Spirit only by grace through faith in love.
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
If Christ's sacrifice is justification to us, can we negate it except by unbelief (opposite of faith) ?


Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
That's three times in one verse that Paul stresses we're not justified by works of the law!! You seem to conveniently resort to some new undefined law now as if God changed laws - what is this law? If it's undefined to us, then there's no point in basing justification on an undefined law - and besides, that law would anyway be considered a law nonetheless and this verse very much applies to it too.
Anyway, Paul takes the pain to define the law that the gentiles are under -
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
So Paul's usage of the term 'law' is inclusive of this gentile law.


Salvation is entirely a work of God in which we cannot share glory. He preserves us in faith unto salvation.
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

And again,
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Well, I hope you see now that we haven't been arguing against doing of righteous works - just the exaltation of them as judging criteria when it's all about faith in love.

 

[glorydaz]

Let's be clear. My position is more complex. But, unlike yours, I accept everything that Paul writes - I let Paul make his own argument, I do not bring a scheme to the text and reject material that does not fit that scheme.

And this is precisely what you are doing in respect to Romans 2. You have given us no explanation at all as to why Paul would say that people will be given eternal life in accordance with works when, in fact, Paul does not believe any will. You invariably appeal to Romans 3 as if that it means its ok for us to believe that Paul was mistaken in Romans 2.

Let's be straight here - there is not a scintilla of evidence that Paul was describing an impossible route to salvation in Romans 2 when he describes how people would be given eternal life based on persistence in doing good.

Was Paul also "kidding" when, in Romans 8, he clearly say that those who live according to the Spirit will live. Not get rewards, gd, get life.

I have gone over this so many times with you before, Drew, and you are so set in your Wright mode that you are unable to hear sound doctrine when it's given. In the first place...your translation is off. It shouldn't say eternal life will be given. The verse says those who "seek" for glory, honor, and eternal life. These are people who have a heart prepared for the grace that Paul tells them about in chapter 3.

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Paul has gone to great effort to explain to the Jews that keeping the law will not save them because if they sin in one point they are guilty. He has done the same thing with the Gentiles...they fail in listening to their conscience...God's moral eternal law and they are guilty.

Paul goes on to say all will be judged on their works...not saved by their works, but judged. God sees into the heart...He sees the sin. Those with the law will perish with the law, and those without the law will perish without the law. This is critical, Drew. You cannot read one verse out of context and expect to find truth. When man stands before the throne of God and his good works are laid beside his sin, what will carry the day? Ezekiel 33:13 tells us quite plainly...exactly what Paul is telling them here.

When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

Paul knew this scripture...did he not? "When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; IF he trust to his own righteousness, AND COMMIT INIQUITY, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered.

Can you hear Paul saying all have sinned? It's all around the verse you choose to take out of context...you ignore it at your own peril ...if it was a snake, it would have bitten you. Those who seek after eternal life will be judged on their deeds....oops, all men sin. Until that sin is covered by the blood and grace and faith have done their work, those good deeds will do you no good whatsoever. Paul is not confused or misleading...he goes line upon line leading them through the Gospel message. The people Paul is addressing need to go on...like Cornelius did...like the rich ruler chose not to. The rich young ruler was "seeking" eternal life...did he find it? Many will seek to enter...it's only by grace through faith that they will....not good works. It is faith that justifies us before God. Just as it did Abraham.

Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

 

[chestertonrules]

Drew,

The question right now is based on who claims glory for salvation? Is it God alone or God + man? .

God doesn't need us for glory.

God gives us the opportunity, through his grace, to attain salvation.

We can't do it alone. We don't even have existence except through the grace of God, so I think this point is irrelevant.

God made us. We are here. Now what? Do we use the gifts of life and grace as God intended? We must make a choice, we have been given sufficient information:

Titus 2:11.12

11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age

His burden is light, but we must carry it.

 

[glorydaz]

Drew,

The question right now is based on who claims glory for salvation? Is it God alone or God + man? .

God doesn't need us for glory.

God gives us the opportunity, through his grace, to attain salvation.

We can't do it alone. We don't even have existence except through the grace of God, so I think this point is irrelevant.

God made us. We are here. Now what? Do we use the gifts of life and grace as God intended? We must make a choice, we have been given sufficient information:

Titus 2:11.12

11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age

His burden is light, but we must carry it.

It isn't a question of God needing us for glory...it's a question of man taking the glory from God for his own salvation. Man is forever seeking after glory that belongs to God alone. Salvation is a gift...man only accepts or rejects that gift. He draws us, prepares our hearts, gives us a heart of flesh instead of stone, fills us with His Spirit, renews our minds, and sheds His love abroad on our hearts. Then the fruit of the Spirit is manifest in our lives as we walk in obedience. When we fail, He chastens us. He doesn't leave us to our own devises for He is a loving Father and the Good Shepherd...He will never leave nor forsake us. When we fall in a pit, He pulls us out. Not much for man to glory in, is there?

 

[chestertonrules]

Drew,

The question right now is based on who claims glory for salvation? Is it God alone or God + man? .

God doesn't need us for glory.

God gives us the opportunity, through his grace, to attain salvation.

We can't do it alone. We don't even have existence except through the grace of God, so I think this point is irrelevant.

God made us. We are here. Now what? Do we use the gifts of life and grace as God intended? We must make a choice, we have been given sufficient information:

Titus 2:11.12

11For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age

His burden is light, but we must carry it.

It isn't a question of God needing us for glory...it's a question of man taking the glory from God for his own salvation. Man is forever seeking after glory that belongs to God alone. Salvation is a gift...man only accepts or rejects that gift. He draws us, prepares our hearts, gives us a heart of flesh instead of stone, fills us with His Spirit, renews our minds, and sheds His love abroad on our hearts. Then the fruit of the Spirit is manifest in our lives as we walk in obedience. When we fail, He chastens us. He doesn't leave us to our own devises for He is a loving Father and the Good Shepherd...He will never leave nor forsake us. When we fall in a pit, He pulls us out. Not much for man to glory in, is there?

God made us. We are not taking glory from him by following his commandments!

We have choices to make while on earth. God has given the ability to make choices and the grace to make the right choices.

What we do in this life determines our eternal destiny.

 

[ivdavid]

What we do in this life determines our eternal destiny.

I agree. But I'm only inserting this statement before yours - that our belief and faith shape what we do. So ultimately, our response to grace in faith determines our eternal destiny.

I've tried to show the reasoning that I've used to arrive at this conclusion. I'd like to know why you feel it's wrong. How am I distorting God's Word or His glory? How am I hankering for my own self-glory? And what exactly is this comment in aid of?

His burden is light, but we must carry it.

If it's to counter any assumed notion that I meant we should avoid leading righteous lives, then that's unfair.

Then again, faith cannot even be defined without these evidenced works, so essentially, good works cannot be separated from faith but faith is the determining criteria, not works.

This statement of mine should clear any such assumption. We are called to be holy - set apart from the world and its ways. We are to lead righteous lives. But this doesn't give any reason for us to own these acts of righteousness - if we do, it's imputed for self-righteousness which is unto self-glorification and if we don't, then how can salvation be based on that.

And what about the long list of verses that Paul writes to clearly set to nil the notion that we can be justified by works. Only by grace through faith in love. Is this doctrinally wrong? If so, teach me through Scripture.

 

[glorydaz]

It isn't a question of God needing us for glory...it's a question of man taking the glory from God for his own salvation. Man is forever seeking after glory that belongs to God alone. Salvation is a gift...man only accepts or rejects that gift. He draws us, prepares our hearts, gives us a heart of flesh instead of stone, fills us with His Spirit, renews our minds, and sheds His love abroad on our hearts. Then the fruit of the Spirit is manifest in our lives as we walk in obedience. When we fail, He chastens us. He doesn't leave us to our own devises for He is a loving Father and the Good Shepherd...He will never leave nor forsake us. When we fall in a pit, He pulls us out. Not much for man to glory in, is there?

God made us. We are not taking glory from him by following his commandments!

We have choices to make while on earth. God has given the ability to make choices and the grace to make the right choices.

What we do in this life determines our eternal destiny.

Our work is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ...

We are taking God's glory by claiming our good deeds have any part in our salvation. We are ordained to good deeds after we are saved. Once we are saved, our choices in this life affect our life here on earth, our fellowship with God and our testimony. When we are born of God, we enter into eternal life.

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[chestertonrules]

[ I agree. But I'm only inserting this statement before yours - that our belief and faith shape what we do. So ultimately, our response to grace in faith determines our eternal destiny.

Amen! We must cooperate with God's grace which is freely given to us. "Without God, We can't. Without us, God won't." -St. Augustine

I've tried to show the reasoning that I've used to arrive at this conclusion. I'd like to know why you feel it's wrong.

I don't!

 

[chestertonrules]

Our work is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ...

Even the demons believe. Did Judas believe?

We are taking God's glory by claiming our good deeds have any part in our salvation. We are ordained to good deeds after we are saved. Once we are saved, our choices in this life affect our life here on earth, our fellowship with God and our testimony. When we are born of God, we enter into eternal life.

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

If we don't pick up our cross and follow, how can we claim to believe.

Don't be like these guys:

Matt 25
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

[glorydaz]

Our work is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ...

Even the demons believe. Did Judas believe?

We are taking God's glory by claiming our good deeds have any part in our salvation. We are ordained to good deeds after we are saved. Once we are saved, our choices in this life affect our life here on earth, our fellowship with God and our testimony. When we are born of God, we enter into eternal life.

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

If we don't pick up our cross and follow, how can we claim to believe.

Don't be like these guys:

Matt 25
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

I'm very aware of the differences in the word believe. :nag

Your warnings are unnecessary...I know whom I believe in, and He is able to keep me, and all the Father has given Him. There are many who claim to know the Lord...that is no big surprise. Jesus will say, "I never knew you", not "You were mine but you failed to obey."

 

[Mysteryman]

At the very least, I challenged you correctly. Show us the originals please ! And if you can't, then you have no ground to stand upon.

Who made the original claim that the word "in" is in the original text.

Me? Fds? Free?

No. Someone named MysteryMan.

What is your explanation? That God whispered this truth in your ear but left it out of the Greek manuscripts.

I am half convinced you are some Yalie having us on....it is not sensible to make a claim that the original manuscripts have the word "in" and then ask us to prove that the original manuscripts do not have that word.

Here. Let me try: The original manuscript of the book of Romans contains the phrase "Coke, it's the real thing". Now, MM, produce an original manuscript to prove me wrong.

Please, a little respect.....

Hi

Yes, the one with the nic - "Mysteryman" told you that the word "in" was omitted and should be inserted back to its original state.

If you believe the greek text and or the translations over and above the Spirit of truth. Then I can understand that the truth is not important too you.

Would this be the first time that God talked to someone , so that error could be corrected ?

I would bet my last dollar, that you would not take reproof outside of your denominational beliefs. And I believe that this is the crux of the matter. As it is with many people from differing denominations.

But once the Spirit of God touches your heart, as he has done to some of us. We then can not deny the truth anymore. Salvation is not according to our works ! Salvation is a free gift from God, because he first loved us, he gave his only begotten Son . He also chose us by way of predestination, because he first foreknew us. We didn't even know ourselves, but even before we were born, God knew us, and chose us in Christ from before the foundations of the earth. To be holy and without blame in Christ in love.

What concerns me and it should concern every Christian, is that some will overthrow the faith of some by their false teachings - II Timothy 2:18.

This is why Paul said this to Timothy -- II Timothy 2:19 - "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his, And , Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

 

[chestertonrules]

Your warnings are unnecessary...I know whom I believe in, and He is able to keep me, and all the Father has given Him. There are many who claim to know the Lord...that is no big surprise. Jesus will say, "I never knew you", not "You were mine but you failed to obey."

They aren't my warnings. God will not save you against your will.

When you feel the pull of the Holy Spirit you should respond. Sin, and rejecting God's will, can destroy your faith if you persist in disobedience.

Dead faith will not save you.

You have a physical body and are on this earth for a reason.

 

[francisdesales]

Paul goes on to say all will be judged on their works...not saved by their works, but judged.

Again, I remind you of the various definitions of "salvation" found in the Pauline corpus...

Being judged = determining whether one enters eternal life or eternal damnation.
There is no sense of "lesser rewards" found in Romans. You are either in or out.

God sees into the heart...He sees the sin. Those with the law will perish with the law, and those without the law will perish without the law. This is critical, Drew. You cannot read one verse out of context and expect to find truth. When man stands before the throne of God and his good works are laid beside his sin, what will carry the day? Ezekiel 33:13 tells us quite plainly...exactly what Paul is telling them here.
"Ezekiel 33:13"] When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

And don't forget the other side of the coin... Those who WERE evil and return to righteousness, God considers as righteous. Thus, there is no "balance book" in God's eyes. For in both cases, He is looking at one's CURRENT relationship, not the number of sins vs the number of good stuff we did... You are turning a relationship with God into a numbers game.

Can you hear Paul saying all have sinned?

That's not the point.

Without God, we are doomed. That's the point. It's not about "seeking eternal life" but being held back by the sins. That's the measuring game again. Those who seek God are indeed seen favorably in the eyes of God, in spite of their sins...!!! The issue is not whether someone SEEKS God, but whether we can get there WITHOUT God... We cannot, Paul makes clear.

Can we get there by our own efforts? No. Jews with the rituals only? No. Pagans? No. The long litany of Jewish failures proves that having the Law doesn't necessarily lead to righteousness.

Those who seek after eternal life will be judged on their deeds....oops, all men sin.

You fail to see the context of the Psalms Paul quotes. Thus, you again make salvation a numbers game.

Why don't you actually read them - and SEE that QUITE LITERALLY, "all men sin" is NOT the point of those Psalms!!! The "all men" refers to the wicked Jews. It is quite obvious that Paul is not intending to say that universally, all men sin, by citing the Psalms...

Yes, Paul knows the Scriptures!!!

He cites 6 Psalms that proves his point - that Jews are fundamentally not given a higher position than Gentiles merely because of their rituals - Romans 3:9 sums that up. It is a devastating summation of Jewish shame. Paul reminds the Jewish readers of the plight facing DAVID, against wicked JEWS! David was on the run from Jews, not Gentiles. Thus, the Psalms Paul cites has nothing to do with "ALL men", but wicked Jews. His own countrymen! Those darn Jews were not inherently better than anyone else!!! LOOK at their history! They are no better than the Gentile nations - and Paul, after citing the proof, sums it up in Romans 3:9. Try to follow Paul's point. First, he approves of GENTILES seeking God in Romans 2, calling them spiritual Jews. THEN, he chastises ACTUAL Jews in the flesh by exploring their history!!!

Doesn't 3:9 sum it up?

In continuing to attack the Jewish idea of adhering to rituals, Paul then moves on in Romans 4 to give the example of Abraham, without the Law, but justified...

We KNOW Paul doesn't mean "all men" universally are evil, none seek out God, because WITHIN THOSE PSALMS, there is mention of righteous men, "the just", "them that are right in heart". HOW could Paul LITERALLY mean that "all men are evil" while citing Psalms that specifically state that there ARE righteous men who seek out God? The "THEY" who are corrupt are evil Jews, not all men literally. Look at Psalm 5, for example, 4-10. Or Psalm 140: 1-12. Note it is a "us righteous vs. them wicked" mentality. It is NOT "all men upon the entire face of the world are wicked and evil.

Paul in Romans 2 disproves that by saying there are pagans who are spiritual Jews in the immediately preceding verses!!! That they will attain eternal life by their good deeds!!!

Yes, Paul knows Scriptures, alright. He is aware of what he is citing and its context.

The rich young ruler was "seeking" eternal life...did he find it?

He did not because the man refused to do something, not because he had didn't have "saving faith", whatever that means... Do you have a "faith" meter that tells you at what point your faith is "saving" and when it just barely is short of the little red line?

Many will seek to enter...it's only by grace through faith that they will....not good works. It is faith that justifies us before God. Just as it did Abraham.

Abram's works in God justified. That is clear WHEN God HImself stated "NOW I KNOW...", not by some thinking about how much he loved God and had faith in him. It was only when Abram DID those things commanded was he considered righteous in God's eyes...

Your formula is incomplete. We enter the Kingdom by doing things, faith working in love, provided for by God. Works that are moved within us by the Spirit of God. Faith is not something separate from love, in the formula of salvation - for all the faith in the world is NOTHING without love.

NOTHING. How does that save??? Thus, faith alone does not save. It is a combination of love and faith that saves, whether Gentile or Jew. And this Love and Faith? Where does it come from? God - for without God's work within us, we are Romans 1 people...

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

Again, I remind you of the various definitions of "salvation" found in the Pauline corpus...

Being judged = determining whether one enters eternal life or eternal damnation.
There is no sense of "lesser rewards" found in Romans. You are either in or out.

Only those written in the Lamb's book of life will be saved. We're written in the Lamb's Book when we're born of God...new creatures. Paul is presenting the message of salvation. We are justified before God by faith...not good works.

And don't forget the other side of the coin... Those who WERE evil and return to righteousness, God considers as righteous. Thus, there is no "balance book" in God's eyes. For in both cases, He is looking at one's CURRENT relationship, not the number of sins vs the number of good stuff we did... You are turning a relationship with God into a numbers game.

That's the point...all our sins are covered by the blood. Once we're saved, we have entered into eternal life. Those who "believe" will not perish but have eternal life. Can't forget those verses in your haste to claim one can lose their salvation. The blood of Christ is the key.

You fail to see the context of the Psalms Paul quotes. Thus, you again make salvation a numbers game.

Why don't you actually read them - and SEE that QUITE LITERALLY, "all men sin" is NOT the point of those Psalms!!! The "all men" refers to the wicked Jews. It is quite obvious that Paul is not intending to say that universally, all men sin, by citing the Psalms...

Yes, Paul knows the Scriptures!!!

He cites 6 Psalms that proves his point - that Jews are fundamentally not given a higher position than Gentiles merely because of their rituals - Romans 3:9 sums that up. It is a devastating summation of Jewish shame. Paul reminds the Jewish readers of the plight facing DAVID, against wicked JEWS! David
was on the run from Jews, not Gentiles. Thus, the Psalms Paul cites has nothing to do with "ALL men", but wicked Jews. His own countrymen! Those darn Jews were not inherently better than anyone else!!! LOOK at their history! They are no better than the Gentile nations - and Paul, after citing the proof, sums it up in Romans 3:9. Try to follow Paul's point. First, he approves of GENTILES seeking God in Romans 2, calling them spiritual Jews. THEN, he chastises ACTUAL Jews in the flesh by exploring their history!!!

Now you're sounding like those Calvinist who claim God doesn't love all men, but only the elect.

You're train of thought is way off base. Paul is not just talking about the evil Jews. He is, indeed, talking about all men. (If all men don't sin, then why do all men need to go to "confession"?) ;) It's clear if you read all of Rom. 1 and 2. For you to run back to Psalms to show the Jews were "wicked" is nothing but an attempt to distract from the truth of what Paul says quite plainly. Nice try though. ;)

We KNOW Paul doesn't mean "all men" universally are evil, none seek out God, because WITHIN THOSE PSALMS, there is mention of righteous men, "the just", "them that are right in heart". HOW could Paul LITERALLY mean that "all men are evil" while citing Psalms that specifically state that there ARE righteous men who seek out God? The "THEY" who are corrupt are evil Jews, not all men literally. Look at Psalm 5, for example, 4-10. Or Psalm 140: 1-12. Note it is a "us righteous vs. them wicked" mentality. It is NOT "all men upon the entire face of the world are wicked and evil.

Paul in Romans 2 disproves that by saying there are pagans who are spiritual Jews in the immediately preceding verses!!! That they will attain eternal life by their good deeds!!!

Yes, Paul knows Scriptures, alright. He is aware of what he is citing and its context.

Nope...for all your efforts you earn a D average. Paul is speaking of all men being unrighteous. I'm truly surprised you can't see that. There is none righteous...no not one. Unless, of course, you're judging by man's standards and not God's. Therein is the flaw in your reasoning.

He did not because the man refused to do something, not because he had didn't have "saving faith", whatever that means... Do you have a "faith" meter that tells you at what point your faith is "saving" and when it just barely is short of the little red line?

If you don't know the different between real faith and false faith, then I'm not surprised you think all who profess to be saved are saved. Then, of course, many of those will "lose" their "salvation".

Abram's works in God justified. That is clear WHEN God HImself stated "NOW I KNOW...", not by some thinking about how much he loved God and had faith in him. It was only when Abram DID those things commanded was he considered righteous in God's eyes...

Whoa whoa...now my error buzzer is ringing off the hook. Abraham was justified by faith. End of story. Please don't make me post Romans 4 ONCE AGAIN. It is so clear...without wiggle room for such statements as you've made here.

 

[chestertonrules]

[quote="glorydaz Whoa whoa...now my error buzzer is ringing off the hook. Abraham was justified by faith. End of story. Please don't make me post Romans 4 ONCE AGAIN. It is so clear...without wiggle room for such statements as you've made here.[/quote]


Jamess 2
21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.


Do you think Abraham would have been chosen to be the father of Israel if he had disobeyed God's instructions, even though he had faith?

 

[francisdesales]

Only those written in the Lamb's book of life will be saved. We're written in the Lamb's Book when we're born of God...new creatures.

Do you have any Scripture verses for that? It appears the Lamb's Book was written before time. But we DO know that people can be REMOVED from it, as Jesus warns Christians of this very threat. Again, I submit that you are overlapping the meaning of "salvation" into one definition.

Salvation can refer to that point in time when we are forgiven of our sins. That is a past event and is not based upon our works. HOWEVER, THIS salvation does not NECESSARILY GUARANTEE the "other" salvation - that is BEING done and WILL be done, provided we obey God and have faith working in love. We CAN lose that inheritance.

Paul is presenting the message of salvation. We are justified before God by faith...not good works.

See above...

That's the point...all our sins are covered by the blood. Once we're saved, we have entered into eternal life. Those who "believe" will not perish but have eternal life. Can't forget those verses in your haste to claim one can lose their salvation. The blood of Christ is the key.

The blood of Christ is not applied all at once to even future sins. Otherwise, there is no need to repent of future sins. The Bible does not support that idea, as Christians are IMPELLED to CONTINUE to ask for forgiveness of their current sins and to pray for the sake of others, to include Paul. We CONTINUE to have an Advocate in heaven, if we falter. First John 1. I do not forget such verses, but take them into account. IF the Blood of Christ is applied without condition, than ALL men WOULD be saved. Faith is GIVEN to men, is it not? A gift. God desires all men to be saved, correct? So to be saved by faith, God must provide some amount of faith to enable "the desire that all men to be saved".

And He does - remember the parable of the sower and the seed? The Word falls everywhere, on good and evil alike. But in some, it never takes root. Thus, we see a condition that is dependent upon the recipient of the Word, man's response. If we continue reading the sower parable, we see that others can receive the Word, and then, their faith falls away, according to Luke's version. Thus, YOU need to take into account the Scriptures, my friend, that clearly state that a person can receive the Word and be saved, and then fall away because of some future event. Such a person is not saved - which suggests that Christ's Blood is no longer salvific for this man.

Now you're sounding like those Calvinist who claim God doesn't love all men, but only the elect.

Please explain yourself based on what I wrote.

You're train of thought is way off base. Paul is not just talking about the evil Jews. He is, indeed, talking about all men. (If all men don't sin, then why do all men need to go to "confession"?) ;) It's clear if you read all of Rom. 1 and 2. For you to run back to Psalms to show the Jews were "wicked" is nothing but an attempt to distract from the truth of what Paul says quite plainly. Nice try though. ;)

You are going too far. Yes, man sins and cannot attain eternal life without God. Granted and I have said this. But "you" (reformers) go TOO far by stating the terrible doctrine of total depravity, which must demand that Christ "cover" us with imputed righteousness, since man can have NO righteousness!!!

Ignore Jesus AGAIN if you like, you'll answer for that. But clearly, He says UNLESS YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS exceeds that of the Pharisees, you CANNOT enter the Kingdom. YOUR righteousness, not "Jesus covering you".

So much for your understanding of Romans...

The issue here is that most Protestants do not understand the concept of synergy, and thus, must divide an act to be EITHER "all God's" or "all man's". A fundamental mistake that ignores the words of the Bible, words that suggest that God moves my will - and I must work out my salvation. That I am judged for what I did, but this judgement, to be successful for me, utterly depends upon God's work in me.

For you, it is an "either"/"or". You don't GET that God and man act together to do works of love in faith. For it is GOD who gives us the ability to DO works of love, works in faith, for He provides BOTH gifts. Thus, there is no need to have some false diametrically opposed thought between faith and works of love. But because WE are judged for what we do (not God's success of the works of love in us), it is apparent to anyone who is not worrying about defending false doctrines that God INFUSES righteousness WITHIN US. It becomes OUR righteousness, since we are NOW A NEW CREATION. The words of Isaiah do not apply to us - we are NOT wicked, are works are not filthy wrags. We DO seek out God and we DO perform works of Love. WE. This is the basis of our judgment - and NO ONE will brag, because without God's aid, we could not even DESIRE to do these works that WE do...

Don't you believe that God will do what He says He'll do? A new creation is formed. Forget about filthy rags now. Those days are DONE - unless you volunteer to return to the vomit...

Nope...for all your efforts you earn a D average.

I expect that would be good in God's eyes, since you are judging me based upon a false gospel. You are not defending Scriptures, but your own false doctrines, so I am not worried about not coinciding with your version of the Scriptures. I have explained my point of view from Scriptures and common sense.

Paul is speaking of all men being unrighteous.

As usual, a half truth.

Of their own, without God. Yes. Now, stop there.

WITH God, that is not the case. That is where your gospel fails. It demands "Christ to cover me". This is a fallacious view, a total discounting of the power of God in the NEW Creation. Don't you get it? A NEW Creation, with the old heart of stone removed, and a new heart placed within. No more filthy rags...

I'm truly surprised you can't see that. There is none righteous...no not one. Unless, of course, you're judging by man's standards and not God's. Therein is the flaw in your reasoning.

You are not giving God any credit for bringing a NEW CREATION into existence. To you, apparently, nothing happens to us at Baptism, we are NOT transformed, and remain totally depraved. There is no new creation, we remain the same and require some "imputed" righteousness, since God cannot change us...

YOU have some major flaws, GD, in your thinking, not me.

If you don't know the different between real faith and false faith, then I'm not surprised you think all who profess to be saved are saved.

Then tell me how you know you have "enough" faith... At what point are you "really" saved? What numeric reading on your faith meter indicates "saved forever"????

Whoa whoa...now my error buzzer is ringing off the hook. Abraham was justified by faith. End of story. Please don't make me post Romans 4 ONCE AGAIN. It is so clear...without wiggle room for such statements as you've made here.

You need to get that error buzzer fixed. Abraham was ALSO justified by works (of love). James 2. We have already discussed this, but I see you tend to dismiss anything that doesn't fit your little idea of the Gospel. Oh, if every Catholic was so infallible!

Perhaps you are forgeting a rule of language?

Because the Bible says Abram was justified by faith DOES NOT RULE OUT THAT HE WAS JUSTIFIED BY SOMETHING ELSE!!!

YOU see "justified by faith", and forgeting all rules of language, insert "justified by faith ALONE". This simple addition turns upside down the meaning of the Sacred Scriptures...

So if I say, "the atmosphere has oxygen in it", YOU must think that there is no nitrogen in it??? That's what you are doing with sola fide.

Paul merely states ONE PART of justification - faith. Can faith alone save for eternal life? NO. BUT YOU REFUSE to listen to God's Word and must cull up some baloney reasoning about "justified in man's eyes", when clearly, the event in question has NO MAN PRESENT - it is done in God's EYES alone!!!

Paul gives us many examples that he does NOT consider "faith alone" as the formula for justification. One example, I have given numerous times, but it falls upon the deaf ears of the one defending the sacred cow of sola fide. One Cor 13:2.

IF faith alone justified, HOW IS IT that a tremendous amount of faith is called NOTHING, if it does NOT have SOMETHING ELSE????

Rather than sticking to cliches and false gospels of half truths, I suggest you attempt to READ the Bible as it is, without attempting to insert your own doctrines into their place. When the words say "x", don't explain them away to maintain some other prized theory. When the Bible says we are saved by faith, and elsewhere, not by faith alone, THEN SEEK OUT what ELSE saves!!! Try to live by the rules of logic and language, because God is not illogical.

Regards