Can the Bible be understood apart from interpretation?

[glorydaz]

If you're implying by that statement that we lose our salvation when we sin then we must have some interesting yo yo'ing going on. Saved...not saved...saved...not saved. The Word doesn't support that and you know it.

Yes it does. Don't tell me what I know...

I have already given the pertinent Scripture verses. We CONTINUE to have an Advocate in heaven for our sake. If our sins are forgiven, past - to - future, why would we need an Advocate STILL???

I'm not saying we are saved/not saved regarding initial justification. That moment is in the past and cannot be undone. However, to attain eternal life, one must have Christ's abiding presence. When we willfully sin, we no longer have His presence. That is clear from Scriptures, since John tells us that obedience to the commandments is proof of His presence. To merely say it without obedience - John calls such a liar...

The Word supports it alright.

Regards

Those who sin wilfully after receiving knowledge of the truth are those who do not enter in because of unbelief. This is what the children of Israel did...they entered not in because of unbelief.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

So, no...the Word does not support our "not abiding" after we have been justified by faith. We are new creatures, as you like to point out.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Those who have the assurance of their salvation have LIFE in them. Jesus will never leave nor forsake us....to claim we can leave Him is to deny the power of Jesus to keep those the Father has given Him. Since no man can "keep" himself by "keeping" all the commandments then it's Jesus and His obedience that saves us. What a wretched man it must be who thinks his salvation rests in his own abilities.

He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

[glorydaz]

We see here there are "books" from which all will be judged on their works...there are none righteous...no not one.

Without God, there is none righteous. What's the matter with you? Do I need to quote the MANY times Scriptures call people righteous???

Those written in the Lamb's book....those born of the Spirit who have eternal life, will never be "blotted out."

Jesus threatens Christians with having their names removed. Don't tell God He cannot remove a name from the Book of Life. That's just plain silly.

"Revelation 21:27"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
The only reference to "blotted out" of the book of life is here...a prayer that the enemy NOT BE WRITTEN WITH THE RIGHTEOUS. That's a far cry from God saying anyone will ever be blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.
"Psalm 69:28" Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Psalm 69 says let them be blotted out...

Ever read Ezekiel 18? What does it say about the righteous (yea, righteous...) who turn to sin? What happens to them? Is God forced to welcome them into the Kingdom of Heaven?

I can't believe we are having such a conversation. God is not bound to let an unrepentant sinner into heaven.

No, it does not mean all men would be saved. Only those who accept the free gift are saved.

And have their CURRENT and PAST sins forgiven. That is what it means to be saved, in this sense. They accept the gift and are free of past sins. It doesn't mean they are saved from future sins that remain unrepentant. Again, God doesn't work that way. One must WALK in faith, not just make a one-time declaration.

Yes, and David was a man after God's own heart even though he committed adultery and murdered Uriah. And Lot was called righteous..... I'm surprised that you think even the most righteous of men could come close to the glory of God...God is RIGHTEOUS. Man is not even close...on his best day.

You don't seem to have a clue about what I have been saying, do you? How many times must I repeat this? Man is not righteous without God. With God, man is CALLED righteous BY GOD!

Yes, in man's eyes...you may be righteous, but we're not talking about the judgment of man but of a Holy and Righteous God. That's why man's righteousness is as filthy rags to God...it's a matter of comparison, and man falls short of God's glory. Even as "new creatures" we are bound by this body of sin. Is your every thought pure and holy?

It doesn't need to be, I am under the Law of Grace. We are in a relationship with God. Do your children have to be absolutely perfect and obedient to be in a relationship with you??? This is more of your idea of a relationship with God??? Either you must be perfect, or you do whatever you want because "Christ covers you"????

Please don't tell me what I think and what I "don't get" since you obviously have no understanding of what I say half the time.

You prove time and again that you DO NOT get it when I must repeat it time and time again.

We are not righteous without God.
With God, I am CALLED righteous, by God.

I'm sure I'll have to repeat this simple thing yet again, though...

You focus on the "all men are evil" and don't bother with Paul's statements about becoming righteous in the Lord AFTER receiving the Spirit of God. And thus, YOUR righteousness will exceed the pharisees, without which YOU WILL NOT ENTER THE KINGDOM.

Again, you don't want to read the words of Jesus Christ. What's more important is your doctrines of man. Forget about what Christ says, it doesn't fall into the mold of "man is always a filthy rag", etc..

It is God who works through us....you can claim it becomes YOUR righteousness if you like. We are new creatures, but we are still far from the righteousness of God. We have a new heart...a desire to please God, but we can of ourselves do nothing.

WHEN DID I SAY I CAN DO RIGHTOUESNESS BY MYSELF???

WHEN? EVER???

No, you still don't get it. You prefer to invent stuff.

We are saved by the faith of Christ....when we believe in Him, He saves us. He sees our heart, circumcises it and fills us with His Spirit. Then we enter into eternal life. The Holy Spirit within confirms and assures me of my salvation. And, yes...it is an eternal salvation because Jesus will lose none the Father has given Him. I rest in His power to save and keep me.

I'm sure that is why Paul told Christians over and over to remain awake, beware they don't sin, telling them certain sins can keep them from the Kingdom, etc...........

New creature does not mean we are sinless perfection walking the earth...we fall short. I realize that's hard for some to admit, but it's better if we do because that's the way God sees it. That's why we are "covered" by the blood of the Lamb. To cover those sins and to be able to enter into the holy of holies to commune with a perfectly Holy and Righteous God.

There is no blood for those who sin willfully... Hebrews 10:27-28

No, the new creature does not mean we are sinless. But we CONTINUE to have an Advocate for us in Heaven, Who PLEADS for us, NOW, in the PRESENT, for our sake, for the forgiveness of sins.

I have read the Bible, and I understand man is justified by faith alone.

You read the Bible and understand man is justified by faith alone????

HA HA...

That's not what the Bible says. It NOWHERE say s that. So I'm not sure what Bible you read. MY Bible says the opposite.

Adding "alone" is a simple case of adding a tradition of man into Scriptures. It is a complete lack of understanding of the rules of language. It is the denial of verses that state that faith, WITHOUT something (love) is nothing.

How moronic.

Well, excuse me, James 2:20 calls such men "shallow". "vain". "foolish". Judge for yourself - when Scriptures actually calls such men these things...

How can faith alone save for heaven when the Bible tells us otherwise, tells us faith BY ITSELF is NOTHING???

"NOTHING" does not save!

This post is garbage and doesn't even merit a response, but I will say this....

You are so self-righteous that you refuse to even listen...but put your entire mind behind tearing down what you are incapable of understanding. You continue to twist what I say and then turn around and claim you were only talking about being "called righteous". The only righteousness man has is what's imputed to him through Christ. You can rail on me til the cows come home, but you're only so much sounding brass. If you can't carry on a civil conversation then I'll have to skip over your posts like I used to.

 

[glorydaz]

WHEN DID I SAY I CAN DO RIGHTOUESNESS BY MYSELF???

WHEN? EVER???

No, you still don't get it. You prefer to invent stuff.

I agree. There is a real problem here. You and I repeatedly make statements and arguments that are manifestly ignored.

I try to be charitable and assume that this is not intentional. But.........

The problem is that you claim our works are necessary for our salvation.

Our works are a result of our salvation. Even after IDavid (excuse me if I got that wrong) laid it all out in perfect order showing how we may all be saying the same thing, you had to continue to argue as if just that little edge you hold is correct. Man is not justified by good works. Good works are a result of our being justified by faith. What you two have just agreed to in the above post proves exactly what we have been saying. You admit you can do nothing righteous in yourselves....it is Christ working through us that produces those good works. So, therefore, we are justified by our faith in Him to produce good works through us as He has ordained. But will either of you admit that?...NO. Instead you rail about how misunderstood you are. Get over it, boys....it isn't working for you. You can't claim what you don't do and are unable to do on your own. Plain and simple.

 

[glorydaz]

The greater works are greater in scope as the Gospel is preached throughout all the world.

No. This reading of yours simply cannot be reconciled with the text. Here it is again:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

This is a statement about a how an individual Christian is enabled to do great and wonderful things.

Which, of course, clashes with a main pillar of your argument - that ultimate salvation cannot be based on good works because man is trapped hopelessly in sin.

It is, frantkly, hard to believe that you do not intentionally ignore texts like this one, Romans 2, and Romans 8.

I do wish to be rude, but you are clearly deforming this text beyond all reason when you deny that it is a clear statement that the individual Christian will be able to do good works.

Why do you do this? Are you not committed to reading the texts properly?

The believer is capable of good works when He allows the Holy Spirit to work through him. I'm not sure how you can act like I don't realize that.

I have, of course, never stated or implied that you do not understand that the Holy Spirit enables us to do good works. Please do not misrepresent me.

You're misrepresting me right now. Guess it's fine when you do it. :biglaugh

Tell me then, Drew...what greater works do you do than what Jesus did while He was here?
I'd really be interesting in hearing this one................

 

[Drew]

The problem is that you claim our works are necessary for our salvation.

I am only following Paul:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Why do you not believe this, glorydaz?

You admit you can do nothing righteous in yourselves....it is Christ working through us that produces those good works. So, therefore, we are justified by our faith in Him to produce good works through us as He has ordained. But will either of you admit that?...NO. Instead you rail about how misunderstood you are. Get over it, boys....it isn't working for you. You can't claim what you don't do and are unable to do on your own. Plain and simple.

You have produced not a single item of evidence to support your position.

 

[glorydaz]

You notice how we are not justified by our works....but, it has been ORDAINED by God that we should walk in good works as a RESULT of being saved. It has been ordained by God that His children, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, will produce the fruit of the Spirit...good works are manifestations of that fruit. Our obedience to God is only what we owe to our Father...and the fruit is His as we simply obey His voice.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

What gd does not tell you here is that in verse 9, Paul refers to "works" and in verse 10, Paul refers to "good works". There is an important, though subtle difference here. As I have already proven, the term "works" can, repeat can, refer to the works of the Law of Moses. And this is the case here.

Either intentionally or from other mysterious reason, you will not engage argument that this text does not support the position that good works do not justify.

Paul here is speaking about how the Jew is not saved by doing the practices or works of the Law of Moses.

Now let's be clear - I have made a very clear argument to support this claim, based on a detailed analysis of the context. That argument makes the case that the "works" that do not justify are the works of the Law of Moses.

That argument has been shamelessly ignored. Gd, how you can not realize this is a profound mystery.

So this text certainly does not deny the possibility that people are ultimately justified by good works.

Like many, gd has simply grabbed this text from its context and applied a pre-conceived scheme to it.

There is really no doubt here - if you look at what Paul goes on to write in verses 11 and following, it is as clear as can be that Paul is talking about the works of the Law of Moses.

My goodness....read the verse in context, Drew. I know how much you hate to do that, but this is critical to your understanding that this is NOT talking about the Law of Moses. You can repeat it all day long and it does not make it true. Read the underlined portion and say again that Paul is speaking of the Jews.

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

 

[Drew]

You're misrepresting me right now. Guess it's fine when you do it. :biglaugh

Please give some evidence that I have misrepresented you. Provide [one statement of mine which consittutes any kind of a misrepresentation of whay you have posted.

 

[glorydaz]

The problem is that you claim our works are necessary for our salvation.

I am only following Paul:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Why do you not believe this, glorydaz?

You admit you can do nothing righteous in yourselves....it is Christ working through us that produces those good works. So, therefore, we are justified by our faith in Him to produce good works through us as He has ordained. But will either of you admit that?...NO. Instead you rail about how misunderstood you are. Get over it, boys....it isn't working for you. You can't claim what you don't do and are unable to do on your own. Plain and simple.

You have produced not a single item of evidence to support your position.

And stop claiming no evidence has been given....that's false. You have been given enough evidence to convince an athiest there's a God in heaven, but you refuse to even admit it. I've watched this discussion go on for months with many people getting involved...providing scripture over and over again, but you choose to ignore it and claim no one listens to you or provides you with evidence. Unless the Spirit opens your eyes...you will never see. I still can't believe you shined on IDavid's posts....I'm left shaking my head.

No, you're not following Paul. You are the blind trying to lead the blind by taking one verse out of context and making claims pertaining to which "law" is the "law" being spoken of in any given verse. You make that determination...not based on scripture or it's context but on your own private interpretation so you can claim we're saved by good deeds. :nag

All will be judged on their works...those seeking eternal life by doing good deeds will be given eternal life if they have no sin to contend with. Which is why Paul says before and after this verse that all men sin and come short and that all are in need of grace through faith because He alone is righteous and He alone is without sin and faith is what justifies us. If I have to explain this over and over again then I can only assume you don't have an ear, but are totally reliant on your mind.

 

[Drew]

My goodness....read the verse in context, Drew. I know how much you hate to do that, but this is critical to your understanding that this is NOT talking about the Law of Moses. You can repeat it all day long and it does not make it true. Read the underlined portion and say again that Paul is speaking of the Jews.

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

No gd.

Paul is telling the Gentiles that they have been integrated into the family of God.

Now, if justification were based on doing works of the Law of Moses, would that be possible?

No it would not - the Law of Moses is for Jews only.

You may not realize it, but in presenting this text, you are arguing against your own position.

 

[glorydaz]

You're misrepresting me right now. Guess it's fine when you do it. :biglaugh

Please give some evidence that I have misrepresented you. Provide [one statement of mine which consittutes any kind of a misrepresentation of whay you have posted.

I don't have to look far...

What gd does not tell you here is that in verse 9, Paul refers to "works" and in verse 10, Paul refers to "good works". There is an important, though subtle difference here. As I have already proven, the term "works" can, repeat can, refer to the works of the Law of Moses. And this is the case here.

Either intentionally or from other mysterious reason, you will not engage argument that this text does not support the position that good works do not justify.
Paul here is speaking about how the Jew is not saved by doing the practices or works of the Law of Moses.

First you imply I'm withholding information....I've been clear good works do not justify, but they follow after salvation. Which is exactly what the verse says. I've pointed out that it was written to the Gentiles even though you claim it was referring to the law of Moses.

Then you go on to say, "either intentionally or from other mysterious reason" that I won't engage your argument, and I have done nothing but that since you started preaching this falsehood way back on other threads months ago. I'm tired of you claiming I'm not addressing your arguments....they're bunk...not supported by scripture...even those you've high-jacked and twisted to prove a point that cannot be proven.

These "important but subtle" differences you speak of are out right false doctrine. Subtle sounds like someone else we all know....not good.

 

[glorydaz]

My goodness....read the verse in context, Drew. I know how much you hate to do that, but this is critical to your understanding that this is NOT talking about the Law of Moses. You can repeat it all day long and it does not make it true. Read the underlined portion and say again that Paul is speaking of the Jews.

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

No gd.

Paul is telling the Gentiles that they have been integrated into the family of God.

Now, if justification were based on doing works of the Law of Moses, would that be possible?

No it would not - the Law of Moses is for Jews only.

You may not realize it, but in presenting this text, you are arguing against your own position.

Of course you see it that way, Drew, since you are convinced all but the Jews can earn their salvation by good works. Paul is showing the middle wall has been broken down...there is no difference between Jew and Greek, so he is not saying it's the good works of the Law of Moses that can't earn salvation. That's down right silly to even make that claim. If that were the case, Gentiles could work their way into heaven but Jews couldn't. Stop twisting a scripture that even a "7th grader" can understand to make it say what you want. No one can get saved by good works....since good works follow salvation. First man is saved by being justified by faith....then God has ordained that those who have been justified by faith will do good deeds. It's such a simple concept and is part of the free gift...It isn't a free gift if man has to earn it.

 

[seekandlisten]

These types of comments just remind me of the guy that knows everything about about the 'game' yet doesn't actually play.

'God' is the only one capable of 'justifying' anything. You can do as much 'works' as you want, have as much faith as you want, or depend on 'grace' as much as you want, you are still going to have to 'face God'.

Put down the 'stones' for a while and reflect on yourselves.

 

[glorydaz]

These types of comments just remind me of the guy that knows everything about about the 'game' yet doesn't actually play.

'God' is the only one capable of 'justifying' anything. You can do as much 'works' as you want, have as much faith as you want, or depend on 'grace' as much as you want, you are still going to have to 'face God'.

Put down the 'stones' for a while and reflect on yourselves.

I don't know...I think reflecting on ourselves is what causes the problems in the first place.

When I face God, Jesus will pull forth His Book of Life and my name will be written there. I think it's very important that believers know it's the work of the cross that saves us. It's our belief in that work that justifies us before God. Our salvation is a gift...and Jesus is the One who paid for it.

 

[jasoncran]

he's talking about the attitude here, not the word itself.

some here have gotten ugly, please cease

 

[faithtransforms]

Well, I'm not going to read all 21 pages of this enormous thread. But I just want to say God's Word is actually fairly plain (written so as to be understood), except when it comes to prophecy. I'm not sure if any of us will ever get that completely right. I've only read about 75% of the OT, been through the NT countless times. But there is SO much in the OT that must be weaved in with NT prophecy, it would seem to me it would almost take a lifetime to put it together.

"Interpretation" in my eyes, other than dealing with prophecy, is pretty much people reading into the Word what they want to see or people trying to nullify scripture they don't want to accept.

Agreed completely with veteran. Heb 4:12 - God's Word is alive. John 6:63 - His Words are Spirit and they are Life.

Faith in the absolute integrity of God's Word along with prayer and fellowship with the Holy Spirit will lead you where you need to be.

 

[faithtransforms]

Also, I go to a non-denominational church. We do not have inflexible doctrinal dogma. We have a Statement of Faith, which includes everything you would expect it to include, the things pretty much all Christians agree on (Virgin Birth, Trinity, Death, Burial and Resurrection, Justification by Faith, etc). But we exist harmoniously together even though some of us are pre-trib, some of us are post-trib, some believe in gap theory, some believe in literal 6-day creation, etc. We don't fight over doctrines of these type because they are not essential to salvation, although we have had bible studies with different speakers telling us their point of view and another speaker telling us their point of view which is opposite to the first speaker. And yet, we are all filled with the Spirit and we have godly love toward one another. My church really emphasizes the family of God ("where you can make mistakes and still be loved" as my pastor always says), and we really are a family.

 

[chestertonrules]

Also, I go to a non-denominational church. We do not have inflexible doctrinal dogma. We have a Statement of Faith, which includes everything you would expect it to include, the things pretty much all Christians agree on (Virgin Birth, Trinity, Death, Burial and Resurrection, Justification by Faith, etc). But we exist harmoniously together even though some of us are pre-trib, some of us are post-trib, some believe in gap theory, some believe in literal 6-day creation, etc. We don't fight over doctrines of these type because they are not essential to salvation, although we have had bible studies with different speakers telling us their point of view and another speaker telling us their point of view which is opposite to the first speaker. And yet, we are all filled with the Spirit and we have godly love toward one another. My church really emphasizes the family of God ("where you can make mistakes and still be loved" as my pastor always says), and we really are a family.

Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church leaders into all Truth.

Do you think infant baptism counts?

Do you think salvation is attained by faith alone?

Aren't the answers to these and other questions central to our Christian faith?

 

[elijah23]

.
Christianity today is made up of a myriad of distinct denominations with distinct interpretations of the Bible. There are as many methods of Bible interpretation. So Can the Bible be understood apart from interpretation? And if not, how can we determine which interpretation is correct?

JamesG

The Bible says that if your right hand sins, cut it off. I think that is an analogy. I don’t think we are supposed to cut off our hands.

 

[JamesG]

'
Why don't you think that it is literal? There is nothing in the context to lead one to beleive that it is anything other than literal. It only sounds bad to you, so you interpret it to mean something other than literal.

JamesG

 

[jasoncran]

'
Why don't you think that it is literal? There is nothing in the context to lead one to beleive that it is anything other than literal. It only sounds bad to you, so you interpret it to mean something other than literal.

JamesG

some do that with genesis.