Can the Bible be understood apart from interpretation?

[chestertonrules]

[

This is the perfect picture of the cleansing of the blood. We are "clean every whit" by the blood of the lamb. Washing is no longer needed..."save to wash his feet". That is why we confess our sins...so we can be restored to fellowship and continue our walk unhindered by disobedience...not having to do with our salvation at all. The blood covers all our sins..we have put on the "helmet of salvation".

Jesus is speaking in the present tense. Our walk in the Spirit must be an ongoing and growing relationship. Sin can destroy our faith. Salvation is not a one time event.

Romans 8:13
for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

 

[chestertonrules]

James 2
21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.


Do you think Abraham would have been chosen to be the father of Israel if he had disobeyed God's instructions, even though he had faith?

James is talking about hypocrites who claim to believe, but show forth no fruit in their lives. Because Abraham believed God, AND IT WAS IMPUTED UNTO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS, "faith wrought (produced) good works." It's automatic, because God ordained it that way. When we believe, we are justified...then good works will follow.

James and Paul don't tell us that good works and obedience are optional. They are required.

James said that the faith of Abbraham was made complete by what he did.
Abraham had the free will to disobey God's will.

1 Cor 7:19
Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts.

Acts 26:20
First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

 

[Drew]

[When we believe, we are justified...then good works will follow.

The Scriptures show us that things are not this simple. Yes, there are statements about how we are justified when we believe. But, and I cannot emphasize this enough, there are also statements about a future justification based on "what we do". Here is one such statement:

for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Let's be frank, gd: You simply deny that this is an authoritative teaching. You claim, of course, that Paul is describing what is only a hypothetical possibililty. Fair enough, but you have no actual case for this - at the end of the day, you have produced no argument, or one that is successful anyway, that this statement is about would happen if it were possible to be justified by good works.

I, on the other hand, accept both teachings - that there is a "present" justification by faith and a future justification by "good works". I accept both Pauline teachings, not just one. Does that require some mental accommodation on my part? Does it require that I revisit the "received reformed" reading. Yes it does. So be it. I will take my chances with Paul, thank you very much.

And, of course, the two reading cohere perfectly as I have already argued in other posts.

 

[Drew]

there are none righteous...no not one

That people use this text to deny the possibility of ultimate justification by good works shows substantial "selectivity" in respect to Biblical texts. It is pretty clear that, here in Romans 3, Paul is describing the state of man apart from God.

Listen to these words of Jesus:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

Gd, what is your response? Romans 8 tells us that the man in the Spirit can "put misdeeds to death". And it tells us that God is conforming the beleiver to the image of the Son. Do you think that this means that the person will remain incapable of doing good works?

And what about what Jesus says here - His statement clearly overturns your argument, even apart from Romans 2 and 8. Jesus tells us that the believer is indeed capable of doing good works.

Why do you think Mother Theresa did all that she did? Were her great acts of selfless love the acts of someone hopelessly enslaved to sin? We should all be thus enslaved.....

 

[glorydaz]

there are none righteous...no not one

That people use this text to deny the possibility of ultimate justification by good works shows substantial "selectivity" in respect to Biblical texts. It is pretty clear that, here in Romans 3, Paul is describing the state of man apart from God.

Listen to these words of Jesus:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

Gd, what is your response? Romans 8 tells us that the man in the Spirit can "put misdeeds to death". And it tells us that God is conforming the beleiver to the image of the Son. Do you think that this means that the person will remain incapable of doing good works?

And what about what Jesus says here - His statement clearly overturns your argument, even apart from Romans 2 and 8. Jesus tells us that the believer is indeed capable of doing good works.

Why do you think Mother Theresa did all that she did? Were her great acts of selfless love the acts of someone hopelessly enslaved to sin? We should all be thus enslaved.....

The greater works are greater in scope as the Gospel is preached throughout all the world.

The believer is capable of good works when He allows the Holy Spirit to work through him. I'm not sure how you can act like I don't realize that. The righteousness of man is as filthy rags to the Lord as a matter of comparison...as I've said before. The righteousness of God is manifest in the believer who walks according to the Spirit. I have a feeling this is just an attempt to argue instead of find areas of agreement. I'm tired of the nitpicking over such points as man's righteousness. We can do nothing of ourselves...in our own strength. If you want to claim glory and honor from that, go right ahead. It's pride if you ask me.

 

[francisdesales]

The problem with your analogy here is this ...

Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

This is the perfect picture of the cleansing of the blood. We are "clean every whit" by the blood of the lamb. Washing is no longer needed..."save to wash his feet". That is why we confess our sins...so we can be restored to fellowship and continue our walk unhindered by disobedience...not having to do with our salvation at all. The blood covers all our sins..we have put on the "helmet of salvation".

Until we sin again...

 

[glorydaz]

The problem with your analogy here is this ...

Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

This is the perfect picture of the cleansing of the blood. We are "clean every whit" by the blood of the lamb. Washing is no longer needed..."save to wash his feet". That is why we confess our sins...so we can be restored to fellowship and continue our walk unhindered by disobedience...not having to do with our salvation at all. The blood covers all our sins..we have put on the "helmet of salvation".

Until we sin again...

If you're implying by that statement that we lose our salvation when we sin then we must have some interesting yo yo'ing going on. Saved...not saved...saved...not saved. The Word doesn't support that and you know it.

 

[francisdesales]

If you're implying by that statement that we lose our salvation when we sin then we must have some interesting yo yo'ing going on. Saved...not saved...saved...not saved. The Word doesn't support that and you know it.

Yes it does. Don't tell me what I know...

I have already given the pertinent Scripture verses. We CONTINUE to have an Advocate in heaven for our sake. If our sins are forgiven, past - to - future, why would we need an Advocate STILL???

I'm not saying we are saved/not saved regarding initial justification. That moment is in the past and cannot be undone. However, to attain eternal life, one must have Christ's abiding presence. When we willfully sin, we no longer have His presence. That is clear from Scriptures, since John tells us that obedience to the commandments is proof of His presence. To merely say it without obedience - John calls such a liar...

The Word supports it alright.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

We see here there are "books" from which all will be judged on their works...there are none righteous...no not one.

Without God, there is none righteous. What's the matter with you? Do I need to quote the MANY times Scriptures call people righteous???

Those written in the Lamb's book....those born of the Spirit who have eternal life, will never be "blotted out."

Jesus threatens Christians with having their names removed. Don't tell God He cannot remove a name from the Book of Life. That's just plain silly.

"Revelation 21:27"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
The only reference to "blotted out" of the book of life is here...a prayer that the enemy NOT BE WRITTEN WITH THE RIGHTEOUS. That's a far cry from God saying anyone will ever be blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.
"Psalm 69:28" Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Psalm 69 says let them be blotted out...

Ever read Ezekiel 18? What does it say about the righteous (yea, righteous...) who turn to sin? What happens to them? Is God forced to welcome them into the Kingdom of Heaven?

I can't believe we are having such a conversation. God is not bound to let an unrepentant sinner into heaven.

No, it does not mean all men would be saved. Only those who accept the free gift are saved.

And have their CURRENT and PAST sins forgiven. That is what it means to be saved, in this sense. They accept the gift and are free of past sins. It doesn't mean they are saved from future sins that remain unrepentant. Again, God doesn't work that way. One must WALK in faith, not just make a one-time declaration.

Yes, and David was a man after God's own heart even though he committed adultery and murdered Uriah. And Lot was called righteous..... I'm surprised that you think even the most righteous of men could come close to the glory of God...God is RIGHTEOUS. Man is not even close...on his best day.

You don't seem to have a clue about what I have been saying, do you? How many times must I repeat this? Man is not righteous without God. With God, man is CALLED righteous BY GOD!

Yes, in man's eyes...you may be righteous, but we're not talking about the judgment of man but of a Holy and Righteous God. That's why man's righteousness is as filthy rags to God...it's a matter of comparison, and man falls short of God's glory. Even as "new creatures" we are bound by this body of sin. Is your every thought pure and holy?

It doesn't need to be, I am under the Law of Grace. We are in a relationship with God. Do your children have to be absolutely perfect and obedient to be in a relationship with you??? This is more of your idea of a relationship with God??? Either you must be perfect, or you do whatever you want because "Christ covers you"????

Please don't tell me what I think and what I "don't get" since you obviously have no understanding of what I say half the time.

You prove time and again that you DO NOT get it when I must repeat it time and time again.

We are not righteous without God.
With God, I am CALLED righteous, by God.

I'm sure I'll have to repeat this simple thing yet again, though...

You focus on the "all men are evil" and don't bother with Paul's statements about becoming righteous in the Lord AFTER receiving the Spirit of God. And thus, YOUR righteousness will exceed the pharisees, without which YOU WILL NOT ENTER THE KINGDOM.

Again, you don't want to read the words of Jesus Christ. What's more important is your doctrines of man. Forget about what Christ says, it doesn't fall into the mold of "man is always a filthy rag", etc..

It is God who works through us....you can claim it becomes YOUR righteousness if you like. We are new creatures, but we are still far from the righteousness of God. We have a new heart...a desire to please God, but we can of ourselves do nothing.

WHEN DID I SAY I CAN DO RIGHTOUESNESS BY MYSELF???

WHEN? EVER???

No, you still don't get it. You prefer to invent stuff.

We are saved by the faith of Christ....when we believe in Him, He saves us. He sees our heart, circumcises it and fills us with His Spirit. Then we enter into eternal life. The Holy Spirit within confirms and assures me of my salvation. And, yes...it is an eternal salvation because Jesus will lose none the Father has given Him. I rest in His power to save and keep me.

I'm sure that is why Paul told Christians over and over to remain awake, beware they don't sin, telling them certain sins can keep them from the Kingdom, etc...........

New creature does not mean we are sinless perfection walking the earth...we fall short. I realize that's hard for some to admit, but it's better if we do because that's the way God sees it. That's why we are "covered" by the blood of the Lamb. To cover those sins and to be able to enter into the holy of holies to commune with a perfectly Holy and Righteous God.

There is no blood for those who sin willfully... Hebrews 10:27-28

No, the new creature does not mean we are sinless. But we CONTINUE to have an Advocate for us in Heaven, Who PLEADS for us, NOW, in the PRESENT, for our sake, for the forgiveness of sins.

I have read the Bible, and I understand man is justified by faith alone.

You read the Bible and understand man is justified by faith alone????

HA HA...

That's not what the Bible says. It NOWHERE say s that. So I'm not sure what Bible you read. MY Bible says the opposite.

Adding "alone" is a simple case of adding a tradition of man into Scriptures. It is a complete lack of understanding of the rules of language. It is the denial of verses that state that faith, WITHOUT something (love) is nothing.

How moronic.

Well, excuse me, James 2:20 calls such men "shallow". "vain". "foolish". Judge for yourself - when Scriptures actually calls such men these things...

How can faith alone save for heaven when the Bible tells us otherwise, tells us faith BY ITSELF is NOTHING???

"NOTHING" does not save!

 

[Drew]

WHEN DID I SAY I CAN DO RIGHTOUESNESS BY MYSELF???

WHEN? EVER???

No, you still don't get it. You prefer to invent stuff.

I agree. There is a real problem here. You and I repeatedly make statements and arguments that are manifestly ignored.

I try to be charitable and assume that this is not intentional. But.........

 

[Drew]

The greater works are greater in scope as the Gospel is preached throughout all the world.

No. This reading of yours simply cannot be reconciled with the text. Here it is again:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

This is a statement about a how an individual Christian is enabled to do great and wonderful things.

Which, of course, clashes with a main pillar of your argument - that ultimate salvation cannot be based on good works because man is trapped hopelessly in sin.

It is, frantkly, hard to believe that you do not intentionally ignore texts like this one, Romans 2, and Romans 8.

I do wish to be rude, but you are clearly deforming this text beyond all reason when you deny that it is a clear statement that the individual Christian will be able to do good works.

Why do you do this? Are you not committed to reading the texts properly?

The believer is capable of good works when He allows the Holy Spirit to work through him. I'm not sure how you can act like I don't realize that.

I have, of course, never stated or implied that you do not understand that the Holy Spirit enables us to do good works. Please do not misrepresent me.

 

[happyjoy]

.
Christianity today is made up of a myriad of distinct denominations with distinct interpretations of the Bible. There are as many methods of Bible interpretation. So Can the Bible be understood apart from interpretation? And if not, how can we determine which interpretation is correct?

JamesG

The easy answer is no the bible can not be understood apart from interpretation. Even if one believes in it word for word literally that is still an interpretation. There is also no way to tell if what one believes about the bible is true. There is no one path to heaven. There are an infinite number of paths. Just as there are an infinite number of interpretations.

 

[Free]

The easy answer is no the bible can not be understood apart from interpretation. Even if one believes in it word for word literally that is still an interpretation. There is also no way to tell if what one believes about the bible is true. There is no one path to heaven. There are an infinite number of paths. Just as there are an infinite number of interpretations.

In which case we would be better off to throw the Bible out. There are ways to tell if what one believes about the Bible is true, although not about everything. For example, the Bible is clear that there is one path, through Jesus; that has never been in dispute in Christianity.

 

[happyjoy]

The easy answer is no the bible can not be understood apart from interpretation. Even if one believes in it word for word literally that is still an interpretation. There is also no way to tell if what one believes about the bible is true. There is no one path to heaven. There are an infinite number of paths. Just as there are an infinite number of interpretations.

In which case we would be better off to throw the Bible out. There are ways to tell if what one believes about the Bible is true, although not about everything. For example, the Bible is clear that there is one path, through Jesus; that has never been in dispute in Christianity.

Think of the bible as a map. One can see where one is and where one wants to go, but there are an infinite set of directions on how to get there. Don't confuse a map with a set of directions. People like to argue of take a left here or go this way or that way. How you get there is irrelevant as long as you get there.

 

[seekandlisten]

Think of the bible as a map. One can see where one is and where one wants to go, but there are an infinite set of directions on how to get there. Don't confuse a map with a set of directions. People like to argue of take a left here or go this way or that way. How you get there is irrelevant as long as you get there.

Excellent point happyjoy. Someone, I can't remember who, once said(in regards to God), 'On whatever road a man approaches me, on that road do I meet him for all roads are mine.'

Biblical interpretation, like all 'truths', depend on our willingness to listen and receive.

The thirty spokes unite in the one nave; but it is on the empty
space (for the axle), that the use of the wheel depends. Clay is
fashioned into vessels; but it is on their empty hollowness, that
their use depends. The door and windows are cut out (from the walls)
to form an apartment; but it is on the empty space (within), that its
use depends. Therefore, what has a (positive) existence serves for
profitable adaptation, and what has not that for (actual) usefulness.

Tao Te Ching by Lao-tzu
J. Legge, Translator
(Sacred Books of the East, Vol 39) [1891]

cheers

 

[Free]

The easy answer is no the bible can not be understood apart from interpretation. Even if one believes in it word for word literally that is still an interpretation. There is also no way to tell if what one believes about the bible is true. There is no one path to heaven. There are an infinite number of paths. Just as there are an infinite number of interpretations.

In which case we would be better off to throw the Bible out. There are ways to tell if what one believes about the Bible is true, although not about everything. For example, the Bible is clear that there is one path, through Jesus; that has never been in dispute in Christianity.

Think of the bible as a map. One can see where one is and where one wants to go, but there are an infinite set of directions on how to get there. Don't confuse a map with a set of directions. People like to argue of take a left here or go this way or that way. How you get there is irrelevant as long as you get there.

The point you seem to miss is that one cannot "get there" in some irrelevant fashion. The Bible is a guide--it shows us where we've (man in general) come from, where we've been, where we're going and where we need to get to. Another thing that it makes clear is that what one believes and does is very important to the journey. This isn't a free-for-all, every man for himself journey. There are certain beliefs and practices that are vital to keeping one on the correct path and without them, one will never "get there."

And it certainly is about much more than "getting there," it is very much about how we get there, what we do in the meantime.

Excellent point happyjoy. Someone, I can't remember who, once said(in regards to God), 'On whatever road a man approaches me, on that road do I meet him for all roads are mine.'

And a quick survey of religions and various beliefs will show that this simply cannot be the case, even within all those that claim to be Christian.

 

[seekandlisten]

Excellent point happyjoy. Someone, I can't remember who, once said(in regards to God), 'On whatever road a man approaches me, on that road do I meet him for all roads are mine.'

And a quick survey of religions and various beliefs will show that this simply cannot be the case, even within all those that claim to be Christian.

I see what your saying but it all comes down to what your looking for. I'm not here to decide what someone's 'goal' is but I do tend to question those that think they already 'arrived'.

cheers

 

[Drew]

The easy answer is no the bible can not be understood apart from interpretation. Even if one believes in it word for word literally that is still an interpretation. There is also no way to tell if what one believes about the bible is true. There is no one path to heaven. There are an infinite number of paths. Just as there are an infinite number of interpretations.

I agree that engaging the texts of the Bible necessarily involve interpretation. But, and this is key, just because this is so does not mean that it is not possible to discern the true meaning, This a modern-day fallacy - the belief that just because there are no "uninterpreted facts" this means that we cannot gain access to truth.

Yes, acts of interpretation are involved whenever any text is read, Bible or otherwise. But no, this does not mean that there is not a discernable "true meaning" in the text.

 

[Drew]

You notice how we are not justified by our works....but, it has been ORDAINED by God that we should walk in good works as a RESULT of being saved. It has been ordained by God that His children, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, will produce the fruit of the Spirit...good works are manifestations of that fruit. Our obedience to God is only what we owe to our Father...and the fruit is His as we simply obey His voice.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

What gd does not tell you here is that in verse 9, Paul refers to "works" and in verse 10, Paul refers to "good works". There is an important, though subtle difference here. As I have already proven, the term "works" can, repeat can, refer to the works of the Law of Moses. And this is the case here.

Either intentionally or from other mysterious reason, you will not engage argument that this text does not support the position that good works do not justify.

Paul here is speaking about how the Jew is not saved by doing the practices or works of the Law of Moses.

Now let's be clear - I have made a very clear argument to support this claim, based on a detailed analysis of the context. That argument makes the case that the "works" that do not justify are the works of the Law of Moses.

That argument has been shamelessly ignored. Gd, how you can not realize this is a profound mystery.

So this text certainly does not deny the possibility that people are ultimately justified by good works.

Like many, gd has simply grabbed this text from its context and applied a pre-conceived scheme to it.

There is really no doubt here - if you look at what Paul goes on to write in verses 11 and following, it is as clear as can be that Paul is talking about the works of the Law of Moses.

 

[chestertonrules]

What gd does not tell you here is that in verse 9, Paul refers to "works" and in verse 10, Paul refers to "good works". There is an important, though subtle difference here. As I have already proven, the term "works" can, repeat can, refer to the works of the Law of Moses. And this is the case here.

.

Great point. There are many who refuse to recognize that there is a difference between the Jewish Law and obedience to the teachings of Jesus.