Can the Bible be understood apart from interpretation?

[Drew]

See how Paul says, "Therefore we conclude..." THAT A MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW. This is the law of Moses for the Jews or the eternal law of God through one's conscience for the Gentiles.

Partly.

Paul is indeed saying that the Jew cannot be justified by the Law of Moses.

But Paul never, repeat never, states that the Gentile cannot be saved by "good works".

If he did, he would contradict what he writes in Romans 2, Romans 8, 2 Corinthians 5, and elsewhere.

 

[glorydaz]

See how Paul says, "Therefore we conclude..." THAT A MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW. This is the law of Moses for the Jews or the eternal law of God through one's conscience for the Gentiles.

Partly.

Paul is indeed saying that the Jew cannot be justified by the Law of Moses.

But Paul never, repeat never, states that the Gentile cannot be saved by "good works".

If he did, he would contradict what he writes in Romans 2, Romans 8, 2 Corinthians 5, and elsewhere.

He most certainly does. He says it right there in Romans 2, but you just can't see it.

And why does he say this? Because all men SIN and come short of the glory of God. Good deeds do not justify anyone. Faith does.

For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

It's very clearly stated by Paul....Faith is what justifies men before God...good works do NOT.

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Do all the good deeds you want, but you will not be justified before God... because one single sin spoils all your efforts to be righteous. That is what Paul is saying in Rom. 2. Seek eternal life through good deeds and you will not be "justified". It is faith that justifies man before God. Good deeds justify you before man...but not God.

 

[glorydaz]

Mr. Wright is full of false doctrine .

According to what authority?

Your infallible interpretation? Do you believe you interpretation is infallible?

I base it on the fruit I see. When I see one of his most ardent readers saying "good deeds save us" then I can only state that either his reader is misinterpreting what Wright has stated or Wright is wrong. Scripture confirms that with no shadow of a doubt.

 

[glorydaz]

And there are many more. It really amazes me that people use Romans 3 to deny the possibility that Christians can do good works (and therefore have the possibility of being saved by those works as Romans 2 so clearly shows.

In all candor, what can you possibly be thinking?

Please don't twist what I've said. I have never even implied that Christians can't do good works....we are appointed to them. But, they do not save us. We are saved by grace through faith...not our works. Our "works" or good deeds are a consequence of our being saved. They do not...nor have they ever, contributed to our salvation. This is a perfect example of man wanting to steal the glory from our Saviour. It was His work on the cross that saved us...not our own.

 

[chestertonrules]

And there are many more. It really amazes me that people use Romans 3 to deny the possibility that Christians can do good works (and therefore have the possibility of being saved by those works as Romans 2 so clearly shows.

In all candor, what can you possibly be thinking?

Please don't twist what I've said. I have never even implied that Christians can't do good works....we are appointed to them. But, they do not save us. We are saved by grace through faith...not our works. Our "works" or good deeds are a consequence of our being saved. They do not...nor have they ever, contributed to our salvation. This is a perfect example of man wanting to steal the glory from our Saviour. It was His work on the cross that saved us...not our own.

If we ignore God's grace and sin without repentence will we lose our faith?

 

[awaken]

Keep in mind that all available versions of the Bible, and all Bible commentaries, and all Greek or Hebrew dictionaries, and all books, and all articles, and all websites, etc., were all written by humans. For that reason, not one of them will ever be 100% accurate. The original texts of Scripture were infallible and inerrant, but everything else is fallible (meaning that it might contain errors). So just because a well-known, well-respected author or preacher or teacher has said or written something (whether in a Bible commentary, a Greek dictionary, a website, etc.), don't automatically assume that he or she is always right. Jesus is the only perfect person who ever lived, but the rest of us make mistakes and get things wrong sometimes.

Since we are human, we will get things wrong as well. One of the biggest ways that we get tripped up is by our own biases and preconceived ideas. .... most of us have simply absorbed our doctrinal views from family members, friends, our church, etc., rather than doing our own thorough and prayerful study of Scripture. But those people that we absorbed our doctrines from, how many of them have actually studied those doctrines in a thorough and prayerful and unbiased way for themselves, and how do we know that they came to the right conclusions? Probably most of them simply absorbed their views from other people (who absorbed their views from others, and so on)! The only way to be comfortable that we have proper Scriptural views is to study these things for ourselves under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and to be willing to discard any views we have which are not supported by the greatest weight of Scripture.

 

[glorydaz]

And there are many more. It really amazes me that people use Romans 3 to deny the possibility that Christians can do good works (and therefore have the possibility of being saved by those works as Romans 2 so clearly shows.

In all candor, what can you possibly be thinking?

Please don't twist what I've said. I have never even implied that Christians can't do good works....we are appointed to them. But, they do not save us. We are saved by grace through faith...not our works. Our "works" or good deeds are a consequence of our being saved. They do not...nor have they ever, contributed to our salvation. This is a perfect example of man wanting to steal the glory from our Saviour. It was His work on the cross that saved us...not our own.

If we ignore God's grace and sin without repentence will we lose our faith?

We aren't reliant on our faith, but on the faith of Jesus Christ. We may fail, but He never does. He is faithful to chasten his children and bring them into compliance with His will.

 

[glorydaz]

Keep in mind that all available versions of the Bible, and all Bible commentaries, and all Greek or Hebrew dictionaries, and all books, and all articles, and all websites, etc., were all written by humans. For that reason, not one of them will ever be 100% accurate. The original texts of Scripture were infallible and inerrant, but everything else is fallible (meaning that it might contain errors). So just because a well-known, well-respected author or preacher or teacher has said or written something (whether in a Bible commentary, a Greek dictionary, a website, etc.), don't automatically assume that he or she is always right. Jesus is the only perfect person who ever lived, but the rest of us make mistakes and get things wrong sometimes.

Since we are human, we will get things wrong as well. One of the biggest ways that we get tripped up is by our own biases and preconceived ideas. .... most of us have simply absorbed our doctrinal views from family members, friends, our church, etc., rather than doing our own thorough and prayerful study of Scripture. But those people that we absorbed our doctrines from, how many of them have actually studied those doctrines in a thorough and prayerful and unbiased way for themselves, and how do we know that they came to the right conclusions? Probably most of them simply absorbed their views from other people (who absorbed their views from others, and so on)! The only way to be comfortable that we have proper Scriptural views is to study these things for ourselves under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and to be willing to discard any views we have which are not supported by the greatest weight of Scripture.

:amen

 

[chestertonrules]

.


JamesG

It is "denominationalism" which hampers correct bible interpretation. Pre-conceived ideas, that people read into scripture and fly with it. This makes the work of the Holy Spirit very difficult.

By denominationalism do you mean protestantism?

 

[chestertonrules]

[
If we ignore God's grace and sin without repentence will we lose our faith?

We aren't reliant on our faith, but on the faith of Jesus Christ. We may fail, but He never does. He is faithful to chasten his children and bring them into compliance with His will.[/quote]

If we don't persevere in faith, we won't be saved.

Our faith(through grace) is what saves. Otherwise, you are left with universalism.

 

[Ahuli]

.


JamesG

It is "denominationalism" which hampers correct bible interpretation. Pre-conceived ideas, that people read into scripture and fly with it. This makes the work of the Holy Spirit very difficult.

By denominationalism do you mean protestantism?

No, it is an all-inclusive term. I understand that catholicism does not call itself a denomination, but I reject that claim.
http://www.religionfacts.com/christiani ... ations.htm

 

[Ahuli]

[
If we ignore God's grace and sin without repentence will we lose our faith?

We aren't reliant on our faith, but on the faith of Jesus Christ. We may fail, but He never does. He is faithful to chasten his children and bring them into compliance with His will.

If we don't persevere in faith, we won't be saved.

Our faith(through grace) is what saves. Otherwise, you are left with universalism.[/quote]
If our faith plays no part in the plan of salvation, then why would we be asked to have it and why would Jesus chide those "of little faith"? It is the most vital part of our relationship with him, i.e., faith that he will keep all his promises. Personally, without the faith I have in him, I know I would not, could not go on.

 

[truthlover]

See if we all agree with the following:

1)The scriptures are from God, and "cannot be broken."

2) They stress the value generally of wisdom, being the answer to the question, "What must I do to be saved?"

3) The scriptures declare their directives to provide such wisdom.

4) There are over a thousand directives, or commands in the scriptures, including the law and the prophets, the commands Jesus gave His disciples, and the admonishments of the Holy Spirit.

5) The strongest of these, as judged by the exhortation to obey with "even more" than "all" diligence, is 2 Peter 1:10, "...make your call and election sure." (NKJV).

6) A very great threat to your being sure of your call and election is delusion from God (2 Thess 2:11), which comes from not receiving the love of the truth.

7)"And this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." (1 Jn 5:3) Since God is the truth, this definition declares that "receiving the love of the truth" means keeping His commandments that pertain to the truth. (e.g. "rightly dividing words of truth." "Buy the truth.")

Make sure that these foundational matters are well in hand, before putting any trust in your thoughts. What if they are your own understanding? What if they are based on your knowledge of good and evil? Have you rightly divided "the word of God" and "the scriptures?" "By your words you will be either saved or condemned. What is authority, and what does the Lord mean when He said that all authority has been given to Him? What is the Spirit (of wisdom) saying when she declares that all authority is from God.

I find these humbling questions, that remind me that I remain a disciple, here to learn, not knowing anything.

 

[Drew]

But Paul never, repeat never, states that the Gentile cannot be saved by "good works". If he did, he would contradict what he writes in Romans 2, Romans 8, 2 Corinthians 5, and elsewhere.

He most certainly does. He says it right there in Romans 2, but you just can't see it.

Incorrect - Paul nevers says anything of the sort. Where, and please be specific, does Paul anywhere state that good works are needed for justification.

You had better not find anything, because then we would have Paul contradicting himself.

[Because all men SIN and come short of the glory of God. Good deeds do not justify anyone. Faith does.

Not the whole picture. It is true true that faith justifies, but only in the sense that those who put faith in Christ in the present are given the Spirit. And it is the Spirit that produces the lifestyle that ultimately saves the person.

Note this text from Romans 8 that you have to ignore in order for your position to have any force:

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

This text means what it means - it is by living as the Spirit leads - putting to death sin your life - that you will......what? Get nice rewards? No, that you will live.

Gd, do you, or do you not believe that all of Romans is inspired? If you do, you simply cannot hold to the position that good works do not ultimately justify.

 

[chestertonrules]

No, it is an all-inclusive term. I understand that catholicism does not call itself a denomination, but I reject that claim.
http://www.religionfacts.com/christiani ... ations.htm

All the other Christian faiths split from Catholicism, but it is still comprises the majority of Christians.(1.2 billion out of 2.2 total)

It is not a denomination. Denominations are a protestant by-product.

 

[Drew]

For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

It's very clearly stated by Paul....Faith is what justifies men before God...good works do NOT.

What are you talking about?

This is the last text you want to post. It says quite clearly "the doers of the law" are the one who will be justified.

 

[chestertonrules]

If our faith plays no part in the plan of salvation, then why would we be asked to have it and why would Jesus chide those "of little faith"? It is the most vital part of our relationship with him, i.e., faith that he will keep all his promises. Personally, without the faith I have in him, I know I would not, could not go on.

I said:

If we don't persevere in faith, we won't be saved.


How do you get from this that our faith plays no part in the plan of salvation?

Do you deny that sin and disobedience can destroy a person's faith?

 

[glorydaz]

If we don't persevere in faith, we won't be saved.

Our faith(through grace) is what saves. Otherwise, you are left with universalism.

That is what perserverance of the saints addresses. We are kept by the grace of God. It has nothing to do with universalism. First man must choose to look unto His Saviour...it is His power that saves and keeps those who are His. If you're thinking you keep yourself, then you are but a sheep thinking he keeps himself safe from the wolf. It is the Shepherd that keeps His flock.

 

[glorydaz]

If our faith plays no part in the plan of salvation, then why would we be asked to have it and why would Jesus chide those "of little faith"? It is the most vital part of our relationship with him, i.e., faith that he will keep all his promises. Personally, without the faith I have in him, I know I would not, could not go on.

We do play a part in our salvation as we look upon Jesus. God draws all men to Himself...whosoever believes will be saved. But we don't keep ourselves saved. If left up to us, when we stumble into a hole we'd stay there. As the Good Shepherd, He pulls us out and sets us back on the path. Those of little faith are those who don't trust our Lord to lead and guide...they trust in their own efforts instead.

 

[Drew]

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Paul is clearly talking about the works of the Law of Moses here - he is not contradicting his clear statement of Romans 2 where Paul asserts that good works justify.

And just because Paul uses the metaphor of the workman (verse 4) does not justify concluding that he is denying ultimate justification by good works, something he has affirmed in Romans 2 and Romans 8.

You need to follow the whole argument. At the end of Romans 3, what has Paul just written?

Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,

Here Paul is clearly, and I mean clearly, denying the power of the Law of Moses to justify. You seem to think that in basically the next sentence, he forgets this context and uses the word "works" to refer to "good works" and not the Law of Moses.

Paul is not that scattered a thinker - he is still talking about the same at the beginning of Romans 4 as he was at the end of chapter. He is making an argument about how doing the works of the Law of Moses does not justify. You have him contradicting what he has written in Romans 2.