Can the Bible be understood apart from interpretation?

[chestertonrules]

If we don't persevere in faith, we won't be saved.

Our faith(through grace) is what saves. Otherwise, you are left with universalism.

That is what perserverance of the saints addresses. We are kept by the grace of God. It has nothing to do with universalism. First man must choose to look unto His Saviour...it is His power that saves and keeps those who are His. If you're thinking you keep yourself, then you are but a sheep thinking he keeps himself safe from the wolf. It is the Shepherd that keeps His flock.

That's Calvinism, which is unblblical.

1 Corinthians 10:12 "Therefore let him who thinks he is standing, beware, that he does not fall".

1 Timothy 1:19 "Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked".

Hebrews 2:1 "Therefore we must pay greater attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away".

2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".

2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father."

2 Chronicles 15:2 "If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will leave you".

 

[Drew]

And there are many more. It really amazes me that people use Romans 3 to deny the possibility that Christians can do good works (and therefore have the possibility of being saved by those works as Romans 2 so clearly shows.

In all candor, what can you possibly be thinking?

Please don't twist what I've said.

I am not twisting what you have written. As my post above states - you do indeed deny the possibility of justification by oood works by appealing to Romans 3.

Your reasoning is what it is. Own it.

You have repeatedly used Romans 3 to deny the possibility of justification by good works- by arguing that Romans 3 says that "no one does good".

Here is one such statement from you:

Because all men SIN and come short of the glory of God. Good deeds do not justify anyone. Faith does.

 

[glorydaz]

Incorrect - Paul nevers says anything of the sort. Where, and please be specific, does Paul anywhere state that good works are needed for justification.

Paul never states that. You seem to be the one making such a claim.

[Because all men SIN and come short of the glory of God. Good deeds do not justify anyone. Faith does.

Not the whole picture. It is true true that faith justifies, but only in the sense that those who put faith in Christ in the present are given the Spirit. And it is the Spirit that produces the lifestyle that ultimately saves the person.

Not "ultimately saves"....When we are saved and filled with the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God produces fruit in our lives. Good deeds are a result of our salvation....not a means to attaining it.

Note this text from Romans 8 that you have to ignore in order for your position to have any force:

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

This text means what it means - it is by living as the Spirit leads - putting to death sin your life - that you will......what? Get nice rewards? No, that you will live.

We gain eternal life when we believe.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

The sons of God are led by the Spirit of God. Those who follow after the flesh are not the sons of God.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Gd, do you, or do you not believe that all of Romans is inspired? If you do, you simply cannot hold to the position that good works do not ultimately justify.

Of course Paul was inspired, and he never claims we are saved or justified by good works. Good works follow salvation...they do not save or justify us before God. Abraham's good works justified him before man...not God. Faith alone justify us before God. Read Romans 4...it's very clear on that matter.

 

[glorydaz]

For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

It's very clearly stated by Paul....Faith is what justifies men before God...good works do NOT.

What are you talking about?

This is the last text you want to post. It says quite clearly "the doers of the law" are the one who will be justified.

That's the point, Drew...no man can fulfil the whole law...or conscience. Only a sinless man can be justified by his works. There was only one sinless man that ever walked the earth. Which is why Paul goes on to explain quite clearly here in Romans 4. Abraham by his works had whereof to glory...but not before God. It's only belief in Christ that justifies us before God. "Him that worketh not, but believeth...his faith is counted for righteousness.

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

 

[glorydaz]

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Paul is clearly talking about the works of the Law of Moses here - he is not contradicting his clear statement of Romans 2 where Paul asserts that good works justify.

And just because Paul uses the metaphor of the workman (verse 4) does not justify concluding that he is denying ultimate justification by good works, something he has affirmed in Romans 2 and Romans 8.

You need to follow the whole argument. At the end of Romans 3, what has Paul just written?

Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,

Here Paul is clearly, and I mean clearly, denying the power of the Law of Moses to justify. You seem to think that in basically the next sentence, he forgets this context and uses the word "works" to refer to "good works" and not the Law of Moses.

Paul is not that scattered a thinker - he is still talking about the same at the beginning of Romans 4 as he was at the end of chapter. He is making an argument about how doing the works of the Law of Moses does not justify. You have him contradicting what he has written in Romans 2.

Nice try, but false. Abraham was not under the law of Moses. Good works do not justify man before God. They never have and they never will.

This verse says quite plainly...we are not saved by our works. We see you boasting that you are. Once we are saved by grace through faith, God has ordained that we should walk in them. Good works are a consequence of our being saved...not a condition of our being saved.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Take of your blinders, Drew, and read the Word without all your preconceived notions.

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

You get into this pickle because you fail to understand God had His law from the beginning. It was only written down for Moses, but all men have known God's law since Adam. Abraham is the perfect example. The law of Moses is not the be all and end all. Paul has already addressed the Gentiles who have the law of God written on their conscience. He is addressing all men...not just those under the law of Moses.

 

[glorydaz]

That is what perserverance of the saints addresses. We are kept by the grace of God. It has nothing to do with universalism. First man must choose to look unto His Saviour...it is His power that saves and keeps those who are His. If you're thinking you keep yourself, then you are but a sheep thinking he keeps himself safe from the wolf. It is the Shepherd that keeps His flock.

That's Calvinism, which is unblblical.

1 Corinthians 10:12 "Therefore let him who thinks he is standing, beware, that he does not fall".

1 Timothy 1:19 "Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked".

Hebrews 2:1 "Therefore we must pay greater attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away".

2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".

2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father."

2 Chronicles 15:2 "If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will leave you".

LOL You obviously don't know what Calvanism is.

This is quite a mixture of verses you've given and it's clear you don't understand what they're saying if you are using them to prove some point. You seem to be claiming our salvation can be lost, and of course you have to ignore a multitude of Scripture to make that claim. "Let him who 'thinks' he is standing."...."rejected"...."lest we drift away"...if we deny Him"...."turn away" and "endure". You do know, don't you, that believing you're saved does not necessarily mean you are saved? Many hear the Gospel and turn away because they refuse to deny all and follow. Those are not saved. I could go on, but if you have no assurance of your salvation...that's a lack of faith, and perhaps you should make sure your call and election is sure.

 

[glorydaz]

And there are many more. It really amazes me that people use Romans 3 to deny the possibility that Christians can do good works (and therefore have the possibility of being saved by those works as Romans 2 so clearly shows.

In all candor, what can you possibly be thinking?

Please don't twist what I've said.

I am not twisting what you have written. As my post above states - you do indeed deny the possibility of justification by oood works by appealing to Romans 3.

Your reasoning is what it is. Own it.

You have repeatedly used Romans 3 to deny the possibility of justification by good works- by arguing that Romans 3 says that "no one does good".

Here is one such statement from you:

Because all men SIN and come short of the glory of God. Good deeds do not justify anyone. Faith does.

I do, indeed, stand by every word I've posted. You are preaching a "works based salvation". That's simply error, and for you to act like I'm the one who doesn't understand is your problem...not mine. My salvation is assured based on Christ's work on the cross. Paul make is clear in all his writing. I do hate to see the Scripture twisted to promote a works based salvation as if man can claim any of the glory that belongs to God alone.

 

[francisdesales]

I do, indeed, stand by every word I've posted. You are preaching a "works based salvation". That's simply error, and for you to act like I'm the one who doesn't understand is your problem...not mine. My salvation is assured based on Christ's work on the cross. Paul make is clear in all his writing. I do hate to see the Scripture twisted to promote a works based salvation as if man can claim any of the glory that belongs to God alone.

Drew can explain this very well himself, and has done so for several years that I have been here. However, perhaps I can give some insight into this for you, GD.

A works based salvation = "I did it". "No one helped me, nothing moved me" I earned as wages (Rom 4;4)

What Drew, and Scriptures, are saying is that we WILL be held accountable for what we do - very clearly, it tells us about judgment. HOWEVER, WE cannot brag, because any good we do is the result of God working within us (Phil 2:12-13). Paul is saying that the Spirit moves within us the ability to choose the good in our lives. Romans 2 makes this clear - it is HE who writes a law on the hearts of pagans. Without the Spirit, these pagans would be just like the ones in chapter 1. But because of the Spirit, God will judge us righteous, because salvation is conditional upon our obedience, moved by the Spirit.

It is not works salvation, because, as Eph 2:8-9 say, it is a gift of grace. We obey God BECAUSE we willingly choose to allow the Spirit to move our will, rather than say "no, I will not obey". We will thus not be able to go before God and say "I earned it", because it is God's gifts that allowed us to obey the commandments, anyways. Without that gift, reapply Romans 1 to us. A Jew? Apply Romans 3 to yourself.

Thus, as Romans 2 states, our works, IN CHRIST'S Spirit, will allow us to receive the gift of eternal life. Not because we did it alone.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

You seem to be claiming our salvation can be lost, and of course you have to ignore a multitude of Scripture to make that claim. "Let him who 'thinks' he is standing."...."rejected"...."lest we drift away"...if we deny Him"...."turn away" and "endure". You do know, don't you, that believing you're saved does not necessarily mean you are saved?

So much for OSAS. If we cannot know we are saved, what is the POINT of proclaiming "i'm saved and I cannot lose it", if we are only kidding ourselves?

Perhaps, if I have more time and you desire to know, I'll explain salvation to you. But it appears that you are misinformed on how Scriptures defines this term.

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

You seem to be claiming our salvation can be lost, and of course you have to ignore a multitude of Scripture to make that claim. "Let him who 'thinks' he is standing."...."rejected"...."lest we drift away"...if we deny Him"...."turn away" and "endure". You do know, don't you, that believing you're saved does not necessarily mean you are saved?

So much for OSAS. If we cannot know we are saved, what is the POINT of proclaiming "i'm saved and I cannot lose it", if we are only kidding ourselves?

Perhaps, if I have more time and you desire to know, I'll explain salvation to you. But it appears that you are misinformed on how Scriptures defines this term.

Regards

No, I'm quite clear on salvation. Surely you know that many people deceive themselves. Not everyone who claims to be saved is saved. On the other hand, the Holy Spirit gives assurance to all true believers. We each know whether we are new creatures or not....not all will admit to having the same heart they always have. Those who are blind don't understand sight until they see. :yes

 

[glorydaz]

I do, indeed, stand by every word I've posted. You are preaching a "works based salvation". That's simply error, and for you to act like I'm the one who doesn't understand is your problem...not mine. My salvation is assured based on Christ's work on the cross. Paul make is clear in all his writing. I do hate to see the Scripture twisted to promote a works based salvation as if man can claim any of the glory that belongs to God alone.

Drew can explain this very well himself, and has done so for several years that I have been here. However, perhaps I can give some insight into this for you, GD.

A works based salvation = "I did it". "No one helped me, nothing moved me" I earned as wages (Rom 4;4)

What Drew, and Scriptures, are saying is that we WILL be held accountable for what we do - very clearly, it tells us about judgment. HOWEVER, WE cannot brag, because any good we do is the result of God working within us (Phil 2:12-13). Paul is saying that the Spirit moves within us the ability to choose the good in our lives. Romans 2 makes this clear - it is HE who writes a law on the hearts of pagans. Without the Spirit, these pagans would be just like the ones in chapter 1. But because of the Spirit, God will judge us righteous, because salvation is conditional upon our obedience, moved by the Spirit.

It is not works salvation, because, as Eph 2:8-9 say, it is a gift of grace. We obey God BECAUSE we willingly choose to allow the Spirit to move our will, rather than say "no, I will not obey". We will thus not be able to go before God and say "I earned it", because it is God's gifts that allowed us to obey the commandments, anyways. Without that gift, reapply Romans 1 to us. A Jew? Apply Romans 3 to yourself.

Thus, as Romans 2 states, our works, IN CHRIST'S Spirit, will allow us to receive the gift of eternal life. Not because we did it alone.

Regards

You're still giving man the glory for his own salvation.
First comes the horse...then comes the cart.
Good works follow salvation. They do not and never have gotten man saved.

And...no man does good works in his own strength.
Even that glory belongs to God.

 

[jasoncran]

isnt there a verse that says something the lord gives the will do good works and the means to do good works?

 

[glorydaz]

isnt there a verse that says something the lord gives the will do good works and the means to do good works?

Ephesians says we are appointed to good works when we're saved. Those good works don't get us saved...they are a result of salvation. That's what the fruit of the Spirit is all about, and it's why man's righteousness is as filthy rags to God. It's only as we allow the Holy Spirit to work through us that we do "good" works. They are His...not ours. We merely walk in obedience to the Holy Spirit that dwells within. It's the love of God that is shed abroad in our hearts and is shown forth through the believer. Our own love is ever selfish...our own works are never holy and righteous...our own efforts are fueled by pride.

 

[JamesG]

.
This thread has turned into a thread about salvation and whether or not it can be lost. And there are two different sides to the issue. Actually there are more, but only two are being dealt with here. Yet in that discussion, the original purpose of this thread has been fulfilled. Can the Bible be understood apart from interpretation? Obviously not. Thank you for answering the question so clearly by example.

Now we can take this thread in a new direction. How do we apply the fact that the Bible can’t be understood apart from interpretation? The RCC solves this problem by having a an authoritative interpreter that is in a practical sense above the Bible in authority. The Protestant denominations have followed suit in a practical sense. Something that anyone who has experienced a wide range of Protestant denominations or has read anything about the doctrinal differences of the various Protestant denominations can see. Is this kind of authority that is common in Christianity really a legitimate way to understand what the Bible writers are saying? One would think that the Bible writers intended to clearly have a point of view on reality. But Christians, by their incessant interpretations of what the Bible writers are saying seem to contradict that possibility.

JamesG

 

[chestertonrules]

.
This thread has turned into a thread about salvation and whether or not it can be lost. And there are two different sides to the issue. Actually there are more, but only two are being dealt with here. Yet in that discussion, the original purpose of this thread has been fulfilled. Can the Bible be understood apart from interpretation? Obviously not. Thank you for answering the question so clearly by example.

Now we can take this thread in a new direction. How do we apply the fact that the Bible can’t be understood apart from interpretation? The RCC solves this problem by having a an authoritative interpreter that is in a practical sense above the Bible in authority. The Protestant denominations have followed suit in a practical sense. Something that anyone who has experienced a wide range of Protestant denominations or has read anything about the doctrinal differences of the various Protestant denominations can see. Is this kind of authority that is common in Christianity really a legitimate way to understand what the Bible writers are saying? One would think that the Bible writers intended to clearly have a point of view on reality. But Christians, by their incessant interpretations of what the Bible writers are saying seem to contradict that possibility.

JamesG

The bible is the inspired word of God, but I agree that is not very useful without an authoritative interpreter.

It's important to remember that Jesus didn't write a book, he started a Church. He gave this Church his authority.

 

[glorydaz]

And that church is the body of Christ...not one denomination, and not the Catholic Church.

All the members...can the hand tell the foot they are the whole of the body? No.

 

[awaken]

In reality, there is only one view which is accurate, right? Only God's view is the correct view. Fortunately, God wrote down His view in a Book so that we can know what to believe.

But if God's view is written in the Bible for everyone to see, then why do Christians have so many contradictory views about just about every doctrine? ..... one reason is because most Christians have never honestly and prayerfully tried to find all of the "puzzle pieces" in Scripture for this doctrine and then tried to fit all of the pieces together properly.
......... imagine three blindfolded men who have never seen an elephant. One man feels the elephant's leg and confidently states, "An elephant is tall and stout like a tree trunk." Another man feels the elephant's trunk and declares, "No, you are completely wrong. An elephant is long and flexible like a large snake." The third man feels one of the elephant's tusks and says, "You are both wrong. An elephant is solid and curved, and it ends in a sharp point."

Notice that each man is basing his belief on accurate information, but each man's belief is based on incomplete information. Each man is totally convinced that he is right and the others are wrong. But when those three men remove their blindfolds then they will be able to see the elephant in full view, and they will instantly realize how shallow and inaccurate their original opinions were.

Do you see how this analogy relates to the way that we study the Bible? It's important to try to get the full picture in Scripture concerning our Christian beliefs and doctrines, because otherwise we might form wrong conclusions just like the blindfolded men formed wrong conclusions about the elephant. Our Christian beliefs might be based on accurate information (from the Bible), but our beliefs might be totally wrong if they are based on incomplete information.

It's uncomfortable to realize that our Christian beliefs tend to be based on incomplete information (and therefore they might be wrong), but God is showing me something even more unsettling. ....He is showing me that just like most Christians, I have definite opinions on various Christian doctrines. However, even though I believed that the Bible is true, I had never taken the time to fully discover what the Bible says about all of these doctrines.
So do I really believe what the Bible says!

Keep in mind that it doesn't matter what our parents believe. It doesn't matter what our friends believe. It doesn't matter what our church believes. It doesn't matter what anyone else believes. We are going to be judged on what we believe, because our beliefs influence our words and our actions.
I am in the process of searching for the greatest weight of Scriptural evidence for the various Christian doctrines, no matter where my search leads, even if it leads me to the conclusion that some of my pet beliefs are false...and it has in many areas.

The Holy Spirit was left here to guide us into all truth! But the problem is...we do not always listen to His guidance...

 

[Mysteryman]

In reality, there is only one view which is accurate, right? Only God's view is the correct view. Fortunately, God wrote down His view in a Book so that we can know what to believe.

But if God's view is written in the Bible for everyone to see, then why do Christians have so many contradictory views about just about every doctrine? ..... one reason is because most Christians have never honestly and prayerfully tried to find all of the "puzzle pieces" in Scripture for this doctrine and then tried to fit all of the pieces together properly.
......... imagine three blindfolded men who have never seen an elephant. One man feels the elephant's leg and confidently states, "An elephant is tall and stout like a tree trunk." Another man feels the elephant's trunk and declares, "No, you are completely wrong. An elephant is long and flexible like a large snake." The third man feels one of the elephant's tusks and says, "You are both wrong. An elephant is solid and curved, and it ends in a sharp point."

Notice that each man is basing his belief on accurate information, but each man's belief is based on incomplete information. Each man is totally convinced that he is right and the others are wrong. But when those three men remove their blindfolds then they will be able to see the elephant in full view, and they will instantly realize how shallow and inaccurate their original opinions were.

Do you see how this analogy relates to the way that we study the Bible? It's important to try to get the full picture in Scripture concerning our Christian beliefs and doctrines, because otherwise we might form wrong conclusions just like the blindfolded men formed wrong conclusions about the elephant. Our Christian beliefs might be based on accurate information (from the Bible), but our beliefs might be totally wrong if they are based on incomplete information.

It's uncomfortable to realize that our Christian beliefs tend to be based on incomplete information (and therefore they might be wrong), but God is showing me something even more unsettling. ....He is showing me that just like most Christians, I have definite opinions on various Christian doctrines. However, even though I believed that the Bible is true, I had never taken the time to fully discover what the Bible says about all of these doctrines.
So do I really believe what the Bible says!

Keep in mind that it doesn't matter what our parents believe. It doesn't matter what our friends believe. It doesn't matter what our church believes. It doesn't matter what anyone else believes. We are going to be judged on what we believe, because our beliefs influence our words and our actions.
I am in the process of searching for the greatest weight of Scriptural evidence for the various Christian doctrines, no matter where my search leads, even if it leads me to the conclusion that some of my pet beliefs are false...and it has in many areas.

The Holy Spirit was left here to guide us into all truth! But the problem is...we do not always listen to His guidance...

Actually, the Word of God is simple. What complicates our understanding is that someone put a false thought into one's head. We now try and solve the understanding with scripture, and try and make a square block fit into a round hole. And the irony in all of this , is that people accept those things that they can deal with, or accept, because it fits into their daily lives.

For instance -- There is nothing wrong with assembling together into one place to pray and worship the Lord God. But why do people think that they need a building to worship in ? The word clearly states that we as christians are the temple of God. And that God dwells in us. So why build a huge building and pay for maintenance and upkeep, and heating or air conditioning etc ? And why call the building a church ? Again the Word is clear, that we are the church. And some will say that the building is not the church, it is just a place to gather. If this were true, then why all of the relgious symbols within these buildings ? We find crosses, altars, painted windows, and the list is just endless.

We can find no records in the book of Acts, nor in the seven church epistles, nor in the latter epistles of any record speaking about building buildings for worship within the grace dispensation !

The problem is simple and the solution is simple. If we would only come back to what the Word of God says, and stop adding to it, or taking away from it, or changing it. And people, I am not talking about your bibles, because man has already added to it, subtracted from it, and changed it.

I am talking about walking by the Spirit. Where have you read that Paul told the church to open your bibles to such and such a chapter and verse ? The only times scripture was actually quoted, was when the OT was quoted. After that, came the writtings of the NT. The knowledge in the NT is important. But without the Spirit of truth one would be just guessing. Some would read the additions to the NT , which were added by man, and are not of God. And they would read those additons as if God spoke them into manifestation. Reading false words added by man will only cause confusion.

So how does one sort all of this out ?

We must come back to the foundation of the truth.

Now you are asking, what is the foundation of the truth ? Actually, the first five chapters of Genesis is a starting point for the foundation of the truth. If one can not understand the first five chapters of Genesis, then everything they read after that will be pure speculation by the reader. And as it is true, that it is God who opens up our understanding. And this is why we should pray and believe. The simplicity of the truth still falls under the true meaning of simplicity and spiritual logic.

The whole Word of God is a mirror image of itself. One the literal, the other the spiritual, which can not be seen with your physical eyes. Like - The first Adam and the Last Adam < One the literal , the other the spiritual. This is why Jesus Christ is not the Last Adam. But Christ Jesus is the Last Adam = Christ as the head of the body of Christ. Male and female, and the two become one in the Last Adam. But because they have not yet become one -- Christ the head is sitting at the right hand of the Father, and the body of Christ is here still upon this earth. Christ the male, and the body of Christ the female. Together they make up the Last Adam = the Last man. Spiritually, we see both as one, even though this will not actually happen until the gathering up of the saints.


Keep it simple

 

[glorydaz]

In reality, there is only one view which is accurate, right? Only God's view is the correct view. Fortunately, God wrote down His view in a Book so that we can know what to believe.

But if God's view is written in the Bible for everyone to see, then why do Christians have so many contradictory views about just about every doctrine? ..... one reason is because most Christians have never honestly and prayerfully tried to find all of the "puzzle pieces" in Scripture for this doctrine and then tried to fit all of the pieces together properly.
......... imagine three blindfolded men who have never seen an elephant. One man feels the elephant's leg and confidently states, "An elephant is tall and stout like a tree trunk." Another man feels the elephant's trunk and declares, "No, you are completely wrong. An elephant is long and flexible like a large snake." The third man feels one of the elephant's tusks and says, "You are both wrong. An elephant is solid and curved, and it ends in a sharp point."

Notice that each man is basing his belief on accurate information, but each man's belief is based on incomplete information. Each man is totally convinced that he is right and the others are wrong. But when those three men remove their blindfolds then they will be able to see the elephant in full view, and they will instantly realize how shallow and inaccurate their original opinions were.

Do you see how this analogy relates to the way that we study the Bible? It's important to try to get the full picture in Scripture concerning our Christian beliefs and doctrines, because otherwise we might form wrong conclusions just like the blindfolded men formed wrong conclusions about the elephant. Our Christian beliefs might be based on accurate information (from the Bible), but our beliefs might be totally wrong if they are based on incomplete information.

It's uncomfortable to realize that our Christian beliefs tend to be based on incomplete information (and therefore they might be wrong), but God is showing me something even more unsettling. ....He is showing me that just like most Christians, I have definite opinions on various Christian doctrines. However, even though I believed that the Bible is true, I had never taken the time to fully discover what the Bible says about all of these doctrines.
So do I really believe what the Bible says!

Keep in mind that it doesn't matter what our parents believe. It doesn't matter what our friends believe. It doesn't matter what our church believes. It doesn't matter what anyone else believes. We are going to be judged on what we believe, because our beliefs influence our words and our actions.
I am in the process of searching for the greatest weight of Scriptural evidence for the various Christian doctrines, no matter where my search leads, even if it leads me to the conclusion that some of my pet beliefs are false...and it has in many areas.

The Holy Spirit was left here to guide us into all truth! But the problem is...we do not always listen to His guidance...

I totally agree. What we see...way too often...is someone taking certain portions of the Word and throwing out those portions that don't seem to agree. We must take the whole Word...as it's been "kept" by God for us today. We see some will deny God is able to keep His Word and so they throw out what they think man has corrupted. That's just as bad as those that throw out scrpture that does not agree with their preconceptions.

 

[jasoncran]

whole movements have done that.

i asked my church elders on the reason why we broke off from the azure street revival, simple the others werent sticking to biblical teachings!