Can the Bible be understood apart from interpretation?

[francisdesales]

francisdesales wondered,

So you think God has abandoned His Church and it no longer is the pillar and foundation of the Truth. I see...

Any Scriptural warrant for this "belief"? Or is this something you were "told"?

I asked Jesus about this, and He said this was exactly the case. He said He warned the church at Ephesus that He was going to do this to them (Rev 2:5). He has been removing lampstands ever since,

You asked Jesus???

How do you know He answered this? Because it suits your already-held convictions? This is not exactly a very good response, since I could say the opposite, that Jesus told ME that you are wrong...

We must rely on other means to resolve this...

You are presuming that Jesus DID remove the "lampstand". Where is your historical evidence for this? There remains a Catholic Church at Ephesus, the same community that John preached to, and they continue to preach Christ crucified.

furthermore, the "lampstand" does not mean the entire Church will be left bereft of Christ - otherwise, His promise is null and void. The Church as an entire organization remains protected by God. Now, if a particular parish has issues, certainly, the gifts of God can be retracted temporarily. But again, remember, Jesus was "threatening" individual parishes, not the entire Church.

and at present, He said to pray that He would start over from scratch. He said He sent His Spirit to put it in writing that no temple of His, meaning His church, should ever call itself by any name, or in any way go beyond what is written (1 Corinth 1:10-4:6). It's a sin unto death (3:17).

Where does Paul say "start from scratch"? You are going beyond what is written!!!

He said that He would be with the Church for all time, speaking to the Apostles - and their successors, since He said "ALL time".

You cite 1 Cor 4. Go to 1 Cor 3:17. Are you destroying the Church by advocating such talk? The context is Paul speaking to schismatics, those who tear the Church apart. Something to think about...

 

[francisdesales]

It has Scriptural backing. All people are not given the gift of interpretation. Haven't you read 1 Cor 12?

Regards

Actually, that is speaking of the interpretation of other languages.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear.

The point is that everyone has been given different gifts, to one the interpreter of tongues, another, discerning the Spirit, to another, healing, etc.

We all have been given DIFFERENT gifts, and one of them is interpreting Scriptures ACCURATELY.

 

[francisdesales]

By what authority? Not FLESH AND BLOOD. Remember what Jesus told Peter. ''Flesh and blood did not teach you this but my Father who is in Heaven.''

Exactly. GOD HIMSELF gave this authority! Thanks for making that crystal clear for us all...

For as Jesus is identified as the Messiah by God through the mouth of Peter, so Peter is identified by God as the Rock which the Church is built upon, with the power to bind and loosen. Clearly, that is a divinely-given authority.

Unless you don't think Jesus was God. Nowadays, a number of self-proclaimed Christians make that statement...

So by what authority did Jesus walk? Was it by the authority of the Pharisees? The religious leaders of His day? Who gave Jesus the insights He had, the religious rulers of His day killed Him out of jealousy to fulfill all righteousness.

??? Your point, please?

See we see here how God can give or take away wisdom. Pride leaves people blind and those who think they are the only holders of the truth and puff themselves up sadly are the most blind, like in the day of Jesus and most periods where the prophets and saints were led to the church, they were all persecuted.

That includes those who break away from the Church and invent things as they go. Christianity is a revealed religion. Every Catholic is baptized in the Spirit, born from above. Ask any priest...

And I would like to read where it is mandated by Rome to pray for people to receive the HS. Please show me where this is written in the priestly acts. I never saw it.

Padre Pio walked in amazing power and instead of having him travel to impart his gifts, the popes kept him almost hidden. When they should have let him travel the world. Why is that you think?

[/quote]

That's not how humble men act. When you begin to read about humble men, you'll learn that. They don't need to travel the world to show off themselves like some circus act or some traveling pastor show.... People were aware of him and traveled to see him. No one was "hidding" him!!! Typicial ignorant statement

 

[francisdesales]

There is doctrine that is truth and there is doctrine that is error. There is only one Truth, however, and we each find that truth as we spend time in the Word of God.

Why do you make such statements, when Protestantism ITSELF is such an incredible piece of evidence that this is NOT the case???

Isn't it very clear that there are VERY holy Protestants who disagree DIAMETRICALLY on KEY issues??? No, theology is not obtained by "sitting down with the Bible alone". that is perfectly clear.

I realize this is the canned statement that all Protestants are required to give in public, but WHO really believes that? Well, excuse me, who really believes it who actually is AWARE of the current position of Protestant theology in the world today? COME ON!!! Look at your discussions in the last week here!!!

Scriptures back this up, as Paul addresses the "infants" who are not ready for meat. Does PAUL give them a Bible to allow them to grow? No, he gives them instruction. One person to another. Not "go into a hole with your bible, it'll come to you"...

God reveals the truth in increments, and the Holy Spirit is the agency through which we receive it. The problem comes when we allow our understanding to be formed by any doctrine of man.

Again, this is another canned response. Anyone who differs with your "enlightened" version of interpreting Scriptures is following "doctrines of men"... This just won't do in the real world. This can NEVER be the means to come to the truth, because there is no authority to TELL US what is a "doctrine of men". You say "X" is a doctrine of men", I say it is not. We are "both" "gudied by the Spirit. What then? We call each other's "doctrines of men", and nothing gets resolved, we are no closer to truth.

Don't you think God was aware of the human condition, and that He PLANNED to resolve this through an authoritative Church, which is called the pillar and foundation of the truth????

We then get something fixed in our brains that should not be there. We end up reading the word with that particular doctrine in mind, and the Word is no longer read with a clear understanding. We need to build line upon line and precept upon precept...rightly dividing.

You don't have to tell me this, no doubt you think this way of me, and I of you when we speak about Confession or the Eucharist, despite the verses that say "x"....

When we read a portion of scripture that we've read many times before and one day the Holy Spirit quickens the truth to our heart, we take it and hold onto it...as we should. The other can then be seen with that view. There are things, even today, that the Lord has not given me that spiritual clarity on...and I wait until He does before I add it to my own "doctrine". The Lord can quicken something to my heart that you have said, Joe, or other brothers and sisters in the Lord. There is no doubt when that happens...a peace and clarity comes that cannot be shaken, and suddenly I see other portions of scripture that only confirm it. We're all being led unto the same understanding of the Truth found in the Word of God. While there will ever be areas of disagreement, we, as a body, come closer all the time. It's in those areas we need to continually seek guidance ...being open to the teaching from the Holy Spirit and being willing to let go of those doctrines that we've held onto before that enlightenment from the Spirit comes.

Like I said, the Lord quickens us for the point of acting in our daily lives, NOT to "know" doctrine and to proclaim it to the world, esp when it is in contradition to OTHERS who have gone before us making the same claim - to have been led by the Spirit to tell us that God is a Trinity and that Jesus offers Himself in Bodily form in bread at the Eucharist.

Jesus gave the Church shepherds to lead the sheep. Let them lead. We don't all need to be shepherds for ourselves. This is an act of pride, and not God's way.

 

[Drew]

Isn't it very clear that there are VERY holy Protestants who disagree DIAMETRICALLY on KEY issues??? No, theology is not obtained by "sitting down with the Bible alone". that is perfectly clear.

I agree - it is clear beyond reasonable doubt that the "read your Bible as an individual, and in (apparently) intentional ignorance of cultural / social / political / linguistic background knowledge" approach yields a dizzying array of disparate interpretations.

I realize this is the canned statement that all Protestants are required to give in public,.....

Not all of us, my fellow Buffalo Sabres fan (well, they are one of my favourite teams) :D .

Well, excuse me, who really believes it who actually is AWARE of the current position of Protestant theology in the world today? COME ON!!! Look at your discussions in the last week here!!!

I share your deep mystification about this. To assert that "me, my Bible and the Holy Spirit" leads to truth, when it is clear that so many people believe different things under such an approach, seems like a wilfull denial of the manifest truth. This really is an "emperor has no clothes" situation.

 

[chestertonrules]

[quote="Drew I share your deep mystification about this. To assert that "me, my Bible and the Holy Spirit" leads to truth, when it is clear that so many people believe different things under such an approach, seems like a wilfull denial of the manifest truth. This really is an "emperor has no clothes" situation.[/quote]


Here are some relevant scripture passages:

Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Matthew 16

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

 

[glorydaz]

If we had no other books in the world, we could still understand the Word of God. In fact, we'd be a lot better off today if there were no other books to be read.

Obviously not true. The original texts of the Bible were written in Hebrew and Greek. Will the Holy Spirit magically translate this for you? History tells us that the coin Jesus held up to the Pharisees probably had a phrase deifying Ceasar written on it. This helps us understand Jesus' true intent in the "render unto Ceasar" teaching - that Caesar is a blasphemous subsitute for the real king - God. Will the Holy Spirit tell you this important historical fact?

There are many other examples. This idea that you can get away with not "doing your historical homework" to understand the Bible is frankly naive. It would be nice if this work could be avoided, but it cannot. There is no shortcut - proper exegesis requires understanding a lot of things over and above what it is laid out in the scriptures.

More often than not they cloud the truth for they are but the wisdom of men. The portion you cite from Romans in an excellent case in point. The time you've spent reading Wright, or whatever his name is, has caused you to become confused on the entire idea

Code for: I do not agree with Drew so I will label his argument "the wisdom of men". Same old, same old.

I don't speak in code...I say it plain out. I don't agree with Drew. There isn't much new there. It doesn't change the fact that you rely on something other than the Word of God for your understanding of Scripture.

Protest all you want. I hold the Bible in my hand the Lord wants me to have, and it does, indeed, hold all truth. If you don't have faith in God's Word, that isn't my business. I don't need history books to explain about Ceasar...it's clear from the text. Call me naive if you want, it doesn't bother me in the least. Perhaps you wouldn't be so mixed up if you were to trust in the power of God and His Word instead of all your research. Man wrote every book but only one is the inspired Word of God. We have so much confusion because of man's wisdom not God's Word. I find believers every day from all across the land that hold the exact same views as I do. We have fellowship and agreement....for we serve the same Lord and are filled with the same Spirit. So unfortunately for you, your logic about that falls short.

 

[Drew]

I don't speak in code...I say it plain out. I don't agree with Drew. There isn't much new there. It doesn't change the fact that you rely on something other than the Word of God for your understanding of Scripture.

You are, of course, repeating your same error.

You think your understanding is correct.

You think my understanding is the "wisdom of men".

The obvious fact is that I could use the same line of reasoning to support my position and claim that your argument is the "wisdom of man". You are a man or a woman aren't you? So please tell us precisely why your interpretation of the Scriptures is correct and mine is wrong. We are both "humans" aren't we? We both read the Bible, we both listen to the promptings of the Spirit. So why are you right and why is NT Wright wrong (and me, by extension)?

You are begging the question, giving the reader absolutely no basis at all to believe that you are right and I am wrong. Your argument that I really on something other than the Bible, in this case, the thinking of NT Wright, is frankly absurd. Your argument relies on you - why you somehow think that you have priveleged knowledge that a world-famous theologian does not have is a deep mystery.

 

[glorydaz]

Every believer has access to the Holy Spirit. No one needs someone else to "interpret" the Scripture.

We have one mediator...Christ Jesus. Understanding the Bible and having access to the throne of God is given to every man.

It has Scriptural backing. All people are not given the gift of interpretation. Haven't you read 1 Cor 12?

Regards

Actually, that is speaking of the interpretation of other languages.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear.

The point is that everyone has been given different gifts, to one the interpreter of tongues, another, discerning the Spirit, to another, healing, etc.

We all have been given DIFFERENT gifts, and one of them is interpreting Scriptures ACCURATELY.

Every believer has access to the Holy Spirit. No one needs someone else to "interpret" the Scripture.

We have one mediator...Christ Jesus. Understanding the Bible and having access to the throne of God is given to every man. [quote=" Matthew 23:8-10] But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.[/quote]

We are not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together...not so that someone can interpret the Bible for us. We are given gifts that edify one another, but we are always to be discerning lest a false teacher comes in our midst. The Spirit within will sound a "warning bell" whenever false doctrine is being preached. And it's preached a lot.

 

[glorydaz]

I don't speak in code...I say it plain out. I don't agree with Drew. There isn't much new there. It doesn't change the fact that you rely on something other than the Word of God for your understanding of Scripture.

You are, of course, repeating your same error.

You think your understanding is correct.

You think my understanding is the "wisdom of men".

The obvious fact is that I could use the same line of reasoning to support my position and claim that your argument is the "wisdom of man". You are a man or a woman aren't you? So please tell us precisely why your interpretation of the Scriptures is correct and mine is wrong. We are both "humans" aren't we? We both read the Bible, we both listen to the promptings of the Spirit. So why are you right and why is NT Wright wrong (and me, by extension)?

You are begging the question, giving the reader absolutely no basis at all to believe that you are right and I am wrong. Your argument that I really on something other than the Bible, in this case, the thinking of NT Wright, is frankly absurd. Your argument relies on you - why you somehow think that you have priveleged knowledge that a world-famous theologian does not have is a deep mystery.

I'll tell you how I know....you claim man is saved by good works. Clang, clang, clang....the warning bell goes off. You can believe you're right as rain, but you aren't. It is clear throughout scripture that our works don't save us. That's taking the honor and glory from our Lord and His work on the cross to even make such a claim. Therefore, I must dismiss all your reasoning unless you happen to say something with is confirmed by the Spirit and the Word.

I have no interest in convincing anyone of anything. I share what I see from the Word and they can take it or leave it. It isn't my responsibility whether you hear or don't hear. That is the Lord's business. Mine is just to speak the truth He's given me.

 

[glorydaz]

Here are some relevant scripture passages:

Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

This has nothing to do with "interpreting" or understanding Scripture. It only has to do with a person being out of order with a brother, and the way to restore them to fellowship.

Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Matthew 16

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

In fact...not one of these verses has a thing to do with any believer needing to have the Word interpreted for him by anyone else.

 

[Drew]

Every believer has access to the Holy Spirit. No one needs someone else to "interpret" the Scripture.

OK then.

NT Wright reaches oneconclusion.

Glorydaz reaches another conclusion.

Both cannot be correct.

So, please, tell us, on what basis do we determine who has the correct interpretation?

 

[Drew]

I'll tell you how I know....you claim man is saved by good works. Clang, clang, clang....the warning bell goes off. You can believe you're right as rain, but you aren't. It is clear throughout scripture that our works don't save us.

You are mistaken about this, as has been repeatedly shown.

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Now, glorydaz, I suspect that other readers are interested to know why you do not believe this rather clear statement from Paul about the basis on which men are saved.

Your argument will no doubt be that Paul was speaking hypothetically here.

Do we all get to do that? Decide that some statement is a hypothetical?

 

[Mysteryman]

The word of God is of no private interpretation.

Those who have the Spirit of truth, need not have someone interpret the scriptures for them.

However, even those with the Spirit of truth, might listen to someone who is telling them a falsehood. This means that even though a person has the Spirit of truth in them. Does not mean that they only listen to the Spirit of truth.

This is the crux of the matter. And this is one reason God sends apostles, prophets and teachers and eveangilists and Pastors. For the edifying of the body of Christ. And so they will not be blown about with every wind of doctorine.

 

[chestertonrules]

Here are some relevant scripture passages:

Matthew 18

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

This has nothing to do with "interpreting" or understanding Scripture. It only has to do with a person being out of order with a brother, and the way to restore them to fellowship.

Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Matthew 16

17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

In fact...not one of these verses has a thing to do with any believer needing to have the Word interpreted for him by anyone else.

I think you are in denial. Jesus built a Church and gave it authority.

 

[logical bob]

Those who have the Spirit of truth, need not have someone interpret the scriptures for them.

Again, I completely agree with Drew. How do we know what the Bible says? The Spirit tells us. How do we know who has the Spirit? They know what the Bible says. It's completely circular.

 

[Mysteryman]

Those who have the Spirit of truth, need not have someone interpret the scriptures for them.

Again, I completely agree with Drew. How do we know what the Bible says? The Spirit tells us. How do we know who has the Spirit? They know what the Bible says. It's completely circular.

Sorry Bob, but it is done by the anointment being of God - I John 2:27

But the second chapter of first John is also a warning, if read properly.

 

[logical bob]

Anointment of God, the Spirit, whatever. Look, throughout these boards you guys are debating all sorts of theological points. I'm sure you all sincerely think your views are confirmed by the Spirit or the anointing of God. None of you deny that Jesus is the Christ, so none of you are the liars identified in 1 John 2. You can all find verses that support your opinions. How are we supposed to tell who's right?

 

[chestertonrules]

Anointment of God, the Spirit, whatever. Look, throughout these boards you guys are debating all sorts of theological points. I'm sure you all sincerely think your views are confirmed by the Spirit or the anointing of God. None of you deny that Jesus is the Christ, so none of you are the liars identified in 1 John 2. You can all find verses that support your opinions. How are we supposed to tell who's right?

Jesus said to listen to those he sent. Here's what St. Clement wrote in about 90 AD. Clement was ordained by Peter.

"And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, 'I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.'... Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry...For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties." Pope Clement, Epistle to Corinthians, 42, 44

 

[glorydaz]

I'll tell you how I know....you claim man is saved by good works. Clang, clang, clang....the warning bell goes off. You can believe you're right as rain, but you aren't. It is clear throughout scripture that our works don't save us.

You are mistaken about this, as has been repeatedly shown.

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Now, glorydaz, I suspect that other readers are interested to know why you do not believe this rather clear statement from Paul about the basis on which men are saved.

Your argument will no doubt be that Paul was speaking hypothetically here.

Do we all get to do that? Decide that some statement is a hypothetical?

Not by works of righteousness that we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.

I know how you like to read that one verse and ignore the entire point Paul is making in Romans. It's the whole Roman Road and you like to stop part way through and claim it is saying something it isn't. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God...which is why we are justified by faith not by works.