Can true Christians lose their salvation ?

[jgredline]

Hi Folks
I have decided to start this thread to discuss if ''True Christians'' can loose their salvation.....

No place in scripture does it say God will take back the free gift of eternal life that he gave by grace through faith...

Where I differ from many reformist is that I believe God gave us a ''free will'' to choose God or Reject God... Further I feel that God does not condemn people to Hell and eternal torment, but that people choose to go there of their own free will by rejecting the Lord Jesus Christ....

It is also illogical to think that a ''true Christian'' who has the spirit of God in him would one day turn to God and say ''Get out of me, I don't want you anymore and thus give up his salvation'' Is this possible? As Illogical as it is, for right now I am on the fence on that.... I can't imagine what condition would cause someone to reject Christ after being indwelt by his holy spirit and thus throwing away his salvation and choose hell...But id one can loose his salvation, this would be the only way and thus I am more inclined to believe that anybody who would do this was not truly Saved and so there it is. I guess I answered my own question and thought.....


There are many passages that teach that those who are truly born again, who are genuinely Christians, will continue (persevere) in the Christian life until death and will then go to be with Christ in heaven. Jesus says,

I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:38–40)

Here Jesus says that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life. He says that he will raise that person up at the last dayâ€â€which, in this context of believing in the Son and having eternal life, clearly means that Jesus will raise that person up to eternal life with him ……This text emphasizes that Jesus does the will of the Father, which is that he should “lose nothing of all that he has given me†(John 6:39). Once again, those given to the Son by the Father will not be lost.

Another passage emphasizing this truth is John 10:27–29, in which Jesus says:
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Here Jesus says that those who follow him, those who are his sheep, are given eternal life. He further says that “no one shall snatch them out of my hand†in verse 28. But more importantly, the most forceful phrase in the passage is “they shall never perish†. The Greek construction (οὐ μή plus aorist subjunctive) is especially emphatic and might be translated more explicitly, “and they shall certainly not perish forever.†This emphasizes that those who are Jesus’ “sheep†and who follow him, and to whom he has given eternal life, shall never lose their salvation or be separated from Christâ€â€they shall “never perish.â€Â

There are several other passages that say those who believe have “eternal life.†One example is John 3:36: “He who believes in the Son has eternal life†. Now if this is truly eternal life that believers have, then it is life that lasts forever with God. It is a gift of God that comes with salvation (it is put in contrast to condemnation and eternal judgment in John 3:16–17, 36; 10:28.

Evidence in Paul’s writings and the other New Testament epistles also indicates that those who are truly born again will persevere to the end. There remains “no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus†(Rom. 8:1); therefore, it would be unjust for God to give any kind of eternal punishment to those who are Christiansâ€â€no condemnation remains for them, for the entire penalty for their sins has been paid.

In Romans 8:30, Paul emphasizes the clear connection between God’s eternal purposes in predestination and his working out of those purposes in life, together with his final realization of those purposes in “glorifying†or giving final resurrection bodies to those whom he has brought into union with Christ: “And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.†Here Paul sees the future event of glorification as such a certainty in God’s settled purpose that he can speak of it as if it were already accomplished (“he also glorifiedâ€Â). This is true of all those who are called and justifiedâ€â€that is, all those who truly become Christians.

Further evidence that God keeps those who are born again safe for eternity is the “seal†that God places upon us. This “seal†is the Holy Spirit within us, who also acts as God’s “guarantee†that we will receive the inheritance promised to us: “In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory†(Eph. 1:13–14). The Greek word translated “guarantee†in this passage (ἀρραβών, G775) is a legal and commercial term that means “first installment, deposit, down payment, pledge†and represents “a payment which obligates the contracting party to make further payments.†When God gave us the Holy Spirit within, he committed himself to give all the further blessings of eternal life and a great reward in heaven with him. This is wy Paul can say that the Holy Spirit is the “guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it†(Eph. 1:14). All who have the Holy Spirit within them, all who are truly born again, have God’s unchanging promise and guarantee that the inheritance of eternal life in heaven will certainly be theirs. God’s own faithfulness is pledged to bring it about.[/color]

 

[Free]

In a nutshell: yes.

 

[Solo]

How can man take God's salvation and trash it?

God makes the payment for all sin to those who repent and believe through Jesus Christ, not of man's works, but out of grace because of His love, a free gift.

God then creates within those who repent and believe, a NEW creature, born from above, born again; never before alive, born of God Himself through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, whom He seals as an earnest payment until the day of redemption.

God the Father foreordained before the creation that Jesus would die on the cross for the sins of world, and that through Him, those that repent and believe will obtain an eternal life with Him.
God the Son provided the sacrifice necessary for God's plan to come to fruition, and will reign with those He died to save forever and ever.
God the Spirit comforts, teaches, and protects the believer until the day of the return of Jesus Christ, whereby the body will be redeemed to join the new born again creature.

Now after all of that work by an omnipotent, omnicient, omnipresent God, and the old man, the corrupt mortal flesh is going to perform a feat to subvert God's great salvation? How? Because of sin which God died for on the cross?

Utterly amazing!

My God is so much bigger than the god of those who think that they can out do God's salvation.

 

[Rick W]

Why would anyone want to go back to the way they were after knowing the freedom in Christ?
My father-in-law, as old as he is, still visits the bars every day. I used to do that also. Not long ago I went with him just for something to do. No, I can't go back into that circle of negativity and self-deception. I was quite out of place inwardly. At one time I embraced that life with all I had but now I know for sure I don't belong.
I've become a stranger to the previous life not only regarding the bar scene but everything. I'm not that person anymore at all. The lying, the cheating, trying to get honor and glory from the world... a world that if you do get applauded it will turn against you sooner or later simply to bring you down again.
I think the question isn't as objective as "Can someone lose their salvation?" but can you lose YOUR salvation? If you can turn back to the way you were before then maybe you need to ask yourself, "Have I really changed or am I just "playing" religion?" And be honest with that question even if it hurts. There's nobody that can answer that for you, that's between you and the Lord and you won't fool Him so don't try to fool yourself.
One can point to others and say, "He lost his salvation and told me so." But in truth you can never know what is really inside that other person or the relationship he or she had with the Lord. No way can you know their "truth". But know yours, that's the only one you can know.

 

[jgredline]

I think the question isn't as objective as "Can someone lose their salvation?" but can you lose YOUR salvation? If you can turn back to the way you were before then maybe you need to ask yourself, "Have I really changed or am I just "playing" religion?" And be honest with that question even if it hurts.

Potluck
Yes, this is exactly what I am saying.....
A ''True Christian'' can't loose or as solo put it Trash Gods salvation''

Now by no means am I a ''cheap Grace'' kind of guy. A true Christian ''will'' produce good friut.............
A true Christian will want to please God in ''everything'' that he does.....
A true Christian will live for Christ......
Christianity will not be a burden and a Christian will always be ''joyfull'' and it will show the most in trial....
''God is not man that he should lie'' If he gave me something, he will ot take it back.......

Unread
You have good questions and I will work on them for you.....

 

[jgredline]

My God is so much bigger than the god of those who think that they can out do God's salvation.

Amen and Amen......

 

[Free]

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
1Ti 4:2 through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared,

 

[JM]

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
1Ti 4:2 through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared,

I believe they were foreordained to this destruction.

 

[freeway]

can a true christian lose his or her salvation??

NO!.. first if you are a "true christian" why would you lose your salvation? that sound like a double standard.. God loves me today but tomorrow He might change His mind... not in a million year... the prodigal son.. He was lost but now he is found, the father was very happy to see his "son" come back... nowhere does the father say.. to the second son, he was once your brother but I had to dis-own him.. unless he changes his way he is no son of mind, but quite the opposite my "son" has come home... also what can any of us do to regain own salvation if we lose it, we can't take Christ to the cross again.. sin in our life is a commucation separation "fellowship" from God... He is always constance if He where to move away from us we could never get our salvation back... sorry I don't quote scripture a lot.. you know the story of the parodical son...

 

[jgredline]

Freeway
Everything you said can be supported by scripture to
affirm what you have said...
Great post :smt023

 

[TanNinety]

I agree with the concept of the original post that says a true Christian will never lose his salvation. True.

What I disagree with is who is a "true Christian". Does a true confession of faith make one a true Christian? Or is it faithfulness to the two greatest commands that Yeshua pointed us to make us a true Christian?

jgredline pointed out this scripture: My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.

True sheep follow Yeshua. Following involves a walk, obedience, faithfulness to His commandments. This keeping of the commandments Yeshua says is Love for Him. The "baa baa" of the sheep doesn't make them true sheep, for anyone can confess with their mouth, it is faith in walking after Yeshua, the commandments that He has laid out for us to follow Him, that leads us into life eternal.

jg, you have quoted, John 3:36: “He who believes in the Son has eternal lifeâ€Â
Let me expound on this. If I read your post and say "I believe you". What does this belief actually mean to you? That I agree with what you have said and I need to follow what you have laid out in your post. Similarly to "believe" in the Son is not a one time act but actually believing in what He had to say and not just that He existed. For even the devil believes that He exists. It is not not existential belief but belief in the WORDS of Yeshua. And words of Yeshua always say "repent, keep my commandments and go sin no more".

So if one is a true Christian, he will believe in Yeshua's words and will live his life by them. This walk, endurance, overcoming of sin will lead to Salvation that cannot be lost.

 

[Free]

It seems that most have missed or ignored my quote of 1 Tim. 4:1-2. How can anyone depart from the faith if they were never a part of it to begin with? In order to depart from the faith, they must have been a part of it.

God loves me today but tomorrow He might change His mind

But that isn't the issue;. The issue is whether or not one can lose their salvation.

Welcome to the forums, I don't think I have seen you around before.

 

[jgredline]

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
1Ti 4:2 through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared,

The Great Apostasy
1 Tim 4:1-5
4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Free;
This is a great section of scripture...

First we need to see who Paul is giving the warning against...
The warning is against the apostate church or the apostasy of the church..

OK, Some will depart from the faith. The word some is characteristic of 1 Timothy. What was a minority in this Epistle ''HAS'' become the majority in 2 Timothy. The fact that these people depart or fall away from the faith does not mean that they were ever saved, but simply that they had professed to be Christians. They knew about the Lord Jesus Christ and had been told that He was the only Savior. They professed for a time to follow Him, but then they apostatized from the faith.
One can scarcely read this section without thinking of the rise of cults in our own day. The way these false systems have spread is accurately described here. (Think of Rick Warren and the purpose driven cult....) Any way, A great part of their membership is made up of persons who were formerly in so-called Christian churches. Perhaps at one time these churches had been sound in the faith, but then they drifted toward the seeker friendly gospel. The cultist teachers came along offering a more positive message, and these professing Christians were ensnared. Sound familiar...We see this today......just turn on TBN
They give willing heed or assent to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. Deceiving spirits is used here in a figurative sense to describe the false teachers, indwelt by evil spirits, who deceive the unwary. Doctrines of demons does not mean teachings about demons, but rather doctrines which are inspired by demons or have their source in the demon world.

These people were / are hypocrites “wearing a mask.†How typical this is of the false cultists! They try to hide their true identity. They do not want people to know the system with which they are identified. They masquerade by using Bible terms and singing Christian songs. Not only are they hypocrites, but they are liars as well. Their teaching is not according to the truth of God’s word; they know this, and purposely deceive the people.

Free, these verses are speaking of people pretending to be christians but they are apostates....

 

[jgredline]

I agree with the concept of the original post that says a true Christian will never lose his salvation. True.

Amen and finally we agree on something...

What I disagree with is who is a "true Christian". Does a true confession of faith make one a true Christian? Or is it faithfulness to the two greatest commands that Yeshua pointed us to make us a true Christian?

Tan
This is a really good question. One that I have been pondering in my head most of the day....I was going to post my thoughts in the sister thread to this one....

jgredline pointed out this scripture: My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.

True sheep follow Yeshua. Following involves a walk, obedience,faithfulness to His commandments. This keeping of the commandments Yeshua says is Love for Him. The "baa baa" of the sheep doesn't make them true sheep, for anyone can confess with their mouth, it is faith in walking after Yeshua, the commandments that He has laid out for us to follow Him, that leads us into life eternal.

Tan
Again I agree with you here. This is very similar to what I am going to post in the sister thread to this one.....You are making alot of sense to me right now....P.S. I love the way you refer to Jesus as Yeshua

jg, you have quoted, John 3:36: “He who believes in the Son has eternal lifeâ€Â
Let me expound on this. If I read your post and say "I believe you". What does this belief actually mean to you? That I agree with what you have said and I need to follow what you have laid out in your post. Similarly to "believe" in the Son is not a one time act but actually believing in what He had to say and not just that He existed. For even the devil believes that He exists. It is not not existential belief but belief in the WORDS of Yeshua. And words of Yeshua always say "repent, keep my commandments and go sin no more".

So if one is a true Christian, he will believe in Yeshua's words and will live his life by them. This walk, endurance, overcoming of sin will lead to Salvation that cannot be lost.

And Tan again I agree with 98% of this statement...so we are close and may very well be close....

This thread is about can one loose his salvation so I don't want to hijack it...

Let me say this and lets move on to what the topic is...

A true Christian will exhibit the ''fruit of the spirit'' to begin with...
I appreciate your post Tan..Thanks

 

[Rick W]

There’s your problem, Solo. You have this turned inside out and backwards. You think you must be born of God in order to repent and follow Christ. No. You must repent first, then follow Christ, then in God’s good time, when he feels you are viable, he makes you born again.

Did Paul first repent, follow Christ then recieve salvation from his errant ways on the road to Damascus? He wasn't looking for repentance in the first place.
Even in my own experience I wasn't looking for God. All was going just fine (according to my blind ways), no crisis in my life though I was headed for destruction but not knowing it. At the instant Christ touched my heart I knew then the full weight of my sins. I knew things I thought and felt were ok weren't. In the blink of an eye I changed my way of thinking with a passion to know who this Jesus was. For 6 months after that moment I totally devoured the bible, being discipled along the way by a fellow willing to open his heart and home to me. I was single at the time and I lived in one of the spare bedrooms he offered to me. That discipleship wasn't without exercise for that was in Utah, mormon country. Along the way I witnessed to mormons learning the ways of deception while learning the ways of truth.
There are those who's testimony are different. Testimonies vary from person to person yes, but in my case salvation was something I was not looking for. Nor was I intent on repentance or even looking to change my life. Like I said, I was doing just fine.
During my walk with Christ there have been a few people (in real life, face to face) who have tried to twist what I experienced into a framework more to their liking but I was there, they weren't. What happened on that back porch that night, alone, I will never forget. And I was saved then and there. No doubt in my mind about that what-so-ever.
It could very well be a case of sanctification, growing in maturity with the Lord from the instant of salvation that confuses some. The growth in Him is not "The" salvation. Some are drawn to His Word, some study the bible, learn His ways before making their "decision" to commit. But I can't help but wonder where the desire to even look at the bible comes from in the first place.

 

[unred typo]

Potluck wrote: “Did Paul first repent, follow Christ then recieve salvation from his errant ways on the road to Damascus? He wasn't looking for repentance in the first place.
Even in my own experience I wasn't looking for God. All was going just fine (according to my blind ways), no crisis in my life though I was headed for destruction but not knowing it. At the instant Christ touched my heart I knew then the full weight of my sins. I knew things I thought and felt were ok weren't. In the blink of an eye I changed my way of thinking with a passion to know who this Jesus was. For 6 months after that moment I totally devoured the bible, being discipled along the way by a fellow willing to open his heart and home to me.â€Â

My dear Potluck, I do not want to in any way wish to judge you or your experience with God. Every person is an individual, with a unique testimony of their walk with God, whether they are a believer or not. You may not have recognized his presence in your life, but be assured, he was there all along, testing you, watching the results and the intents of your heart. What you experienced was indeed a work of his grace in your life but what you describe is true repentance and if you were born again at that instant it was because God felt you were ready to begin a full life as a child of his, who would be committed to obedience and service.

Many people seem to think they have been born again when they have not even fully submitted to the righteousness of God, nor do they intend to do such a thing. They are filled with joy at the possibility of gaining a guaranteed eternal life in heaven without first surrendering their heart and life to God. Such people have been woefully deceived by Satan. The joy is as real as the giddiness that you see in children under the Christmas tree cheerfully ripping open their presents. In fact, what you will most hear from them is not a commitment and desire to follow Christ, but a stubborn claim that everything short of God’s own throne is unconditionally theirs to enjoy and it is *theirs* as* a *free* *gift*. Some are so intent on this idea, that they greedily go after teachers who will tickle their ears and make up even wilder claims that they were the only ones chosen to be so gifted and glorified and that it is without sacrifice of any kind, and certainly not a cross to bear.

Whenever you try to inform them of the true gospel, they act exactly like a two year old who is threatened with losing his lollipop. These are precious promises, alright, but they are false and deceptive doctrines designed to lure away those greedy souls from the truth and love of God. They disdain the blood of Christ as if it were not a glorious enough gift for their consideration.

And why should it be? It is not to be compared with what Satan has to offer. Free eternal life of joy forever for the single moment of confessing that Jesus is God/Lord/Savior and that in name only. They are free to go back to sin, but please don’t. In any case, they are free from hell and the only torment they must endure is an occasional sneer from those ‘fools’ who think the offer is too good to be true.

:roll:

 

[Free]

Free, these verses are speaking of people pretending to be christians but they are apostates....

On the contrary, depending on which version you use, the verses are either speaking of Christians who are led astray by those who are pretending to be Christians, or they are Christians who let themselves be led astray.

Nowhere in the passage is it indicated that this is in reference to people who were pretending or were apsotates to begin with, but it is stated that as a result of listening to the doctrines of demons they end up apostates.

This is supported by the rest of the chapter:

1Ti 4:6 If you put these things before the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed.
1Ti 4:7 Have nothing to do with irreverent, silly myths. Rather train yourself for godliness;

1Ti 4:15 Practice these things, devote yourself to them, so that all may see your progress.
1Ti 4:16 Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

Verse 16 sums it all up: by keeping to the teaching of right and proper doctrine, Timothy will help ensure that he and his hearers are saved (as opposed to those who depart the faith due to having been led astray by unsound and false teachings).

 

[francisdesales]

This thread is about can one loose his salvation so I don't want to hijack it...

Let me say this and lets move on to what the topic is...

A true Christian will exhibit the ''fruit of the spirit'' to begin with...
I appreciate your post Tan..Thanks

Ah. An interesting thought - the "True" Christian will exhibit the fruit. How often? All the time? Everyday? Is this a general rule of thumb? And who judges the quality of the fruit? Other men who are not privy to the motivations that dwell in another person's heart? All quite subjective, to me, don't you agree?

Scripture tells usthat we are supposed to persevere in "fruitful faith" until the end. When a person accepts Christ into their life, there is GOING TO BE imperfection in that declaration. It truly is a fallacy to claim, from afar, that a person was "never saved to begin with"... HOW can we know that "faith proclamation" when it was first made? How can we judge the sincerity of another person - and can we really claim to believe we could have done better if we had walked in a person's shoes? Are we really supposed to question the sincerity of believers, even pastors and priests who fall away 20 years after accepting Christ into their lives? And who is to say they won't return??? Is this really what we as Christians are called to do?

I think too many people are looking for easy, pat answers. "Oh, I'm saved, so no matter what happens, I'm still going to heaven". Really, this isn't the message of Scriptures, this false security. We are told not to look back, not to take our hand off the plow. We are told that there will be those who say "Lord, Lord" and He will not recognize us. This false sense of security plays into the devil's hands, because at THAT point, we fall into the sin of pride, judging others whom we believe possess "less fruitful" lives. Can anyone not see that this is the same attitude as the Pharisees, this righteousness that claims to already be "saved" without future concern?

We are saved, we are BEING saved, and we have hope that in the end, we WILL be saved for eternal life. In the end, it is those who abide in Christ at their death who will be saved. Not necessarily those who made that declaration many years ago. Thus, perseverance is a key theme in Sacred Scriptures. God will bless us and we will provide the way for salvation - provided that we do not turn away from our inheritance awaiting us. As long as a person has life within them and turns to the Lord, we place our hope in His mercy that He will save that person for heaven. Thus, the question of the thread "Can we loose our salvation" is a "YES" - but only because WE threw it away.

In the end, this is the Gospel:

He that hath the Son, hath life. He that hath not the Son, hath not life. 1 John 5:12

Pretty clear - and is a clarion call to PERSEVERE until death!

Regards

 

[jgredline]

On the contrary, depending on which version you use, the verses are either speaking of Christians who are led astray by those who are pretending to be Christians, or they are Christians who let themselves be led astray.

Nowhere in the passage is it indicated that this is in reference to people who were pretending or were apsotates to begin with, but it is stated that as a result of listening to the doctrines of demons they end up apostates.

This is supported by the rest of the chapter:

1Ti 4:6 If you put these things before the brothers, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, being trained in the words of the faith and of the good doctrine that you have followed.
1Ti 4:7 Have nothing to do with irreverent, silly myths. Rather train yourself for godliness;

1Ti 4:15 Practice these things, devote yourself to them, so that all may see your progress.
1Ti 4:16 Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

Verse 16 sums it all up: by keeping to the teaching of right and proper doctrine, Timothy will help ensure that he and his hearers are saved (as opposed to those who depart the faith due to having been led astray by unsound and false teachings).

Free

I had prepared a fairly long rebutle to your statement....
But have decided to aproach it in a more logical way...I was praying about this ealier today while watching the movie on The Nativity and the Lord answered my prayer by giving me a very simple answer to 1 tim 4:1...so lets take a look...

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, NKJV

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, NASB

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; KJV

Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, ESV

το δε πνευμα ρητως λεγει οτι εν υστεροις καιροις αποστησονται τινες της ( definate article) πιστεως προσεχοντες πνευμασιν πλανοις και διδασκαλιαις δαιμονιων
1550 textus Recptus
Free,
The definate article The (της ) affirms that some (this is a Plural ''pro noun''), will depart from ''Christianity'', NOT that they individualy are are walking or departing from ''thier'' faith....


The phraze ''the faith'' or ''the way'' were some of the phrazes that were used by the early church to describe ''Christian'' churches....
In 1 tim chapter 4, it is clearly speaking of folks who were not '' true Christians''.....

No place in Chapter 4 does it even say they were Christians or believers ....,,
But there are many passages in scripture that teach clearly that a True Believer will not loose his salvation.....Look at my OP and here are a few more solid proofs......

Another example of assurance that believers will persevere to the end is found in Paul’s statement to the Philippians: “I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ†(Phil. 1:6). The word “you†here is plural (Gk. ὑμᾶς, from σύ), and thus he is referring to ''Christians in the Philippian church'' and to the specific believers to who he is writing to and saying that God’s good work that began in them will continue and will be completed at the day Christ returns.

When we are saved, nothing can seperate us from the Love of God..Rom 8
When we are saved, ''we are justified''
While we are alive ''we are bieng saved and sanctified''.
When we die, ''we are saved and will be glorified''

I will expound on this in a little bit...


Now lets take a look at Peter....
Peter tells his readers that they are those “who by God’s power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time†(1 Peter 1:5). The word guarded in Greek is ''φρουρέω'' can mean both “kept from escaping†and “protected from attack,†and perhaps both kinds of guarding are intended here: God is preserving believers from escaping out of his kingdom, and he is protecting them from external attacks.

The present participle that Peter uses gives the sense “You are continually being guarded.†or you are continually being saved....He stresses that this is by God’s power. Yet God’s power does not work apart from the personal faith of those being guarded, but through their faith.....We are saved by Grace through faith...
Personal faith or trust in God is the means God uses to guard his people.
This guarding is not for a temporary goal but for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. “Salvation†is used here not of past justification or of present sanctification (speaking in theological categories) but of the future full possession of all the blessings of our redemption of the final, complete fulfillment of our salvation.

OK, so If God’s guarding has as its purpose the preservation of believers until they receive their full, heavenly salvation, then it is safe to conclude that God will accomplish that purpose and they will in fact attain that final salvation. Ultimately their attainment of final salvation depends on God’s power.
God’s power is continually working “through†our faith.


When we are saved, nothing can seperate us from the Love of God..Rom 8
He is Guarding us to himself....
When we are saved, ''we are justified'' We belong to him....
While we are alive ''we are bieng saved and sanctified'' and protected....
When we die, ''we are saved and will be glorified'' AMEN.....

 

[Rick W]

Potluck wrote: “Did Paul first repent, follow Christ then recieve salvation from his errant ways on the road to Damascus? He wasn't looking for repentance in the first place.
Even in my own experience I wasn't looking for God. All was going just fine (according to my blind ways), no crisis in my life though I was headed for destruction but not knowing it. At the instant Christ touched my heart I knew then the full weight of my sins. I knew things I thought and felt were ok weren't. In the blink of an eye I changed my way of thinking with a passion to know who this Jesus was. For 6 months after that moment I totally devoured the bible, being discipled along the way by a fellow willing to open his heart and home to me.â€Â

My dear Potluck, I do not want to in any way wish to judge you or your experience with God. Every person is an individual, with a unique testimony of their walk with God, whether they are a believer or not. You may not have recognized his presence in your life, but be assured, he was there all along, testing you, watching the results and the intents of your heart. What you experienced was indeed a work of his grace in your life but what you describe is true repentance and if you were born again at that instant it was because God felt you were ready to begin a full life as a child of his, who would be committed to obedience and service.

Many people seem to think they have been born again when they have not even fully submitted to the righteousness of God, nor do they intend to do such a thing. They are filled with joy at the possibility of gaining a guaranteed eternal life in heaven without first surrendering their heart and life to God. Such people have been woefully deceived by Satan. The joy is as real as the giddiness that you see in children under the Christmas tree cheerfully ripping open their presents. In fact, what you will most hear from them is not a commitment and desire to follow Christ, but a stubborn claim that everything short of God’s own throne is unconditionally theirs to enjoy and it is *theirs* as* a *free* *gift*. Some are so intent on this idea, that they greedily go after teachers who will tickle their ears and make up even wilder claims that they were the only ones chosen to be so gifted and glorified and that it is without sacrifice of any kind, and certainly not a cross to bear.

Whenever you try to inform them of the true gospel, they act exactly like a two year old who is threatened with losing his lollipop. These are precious promises, alright, but they are false and deceptive doctrines designed to lure away those greedy souls from the truth and love of God. They disdain the blood of Christ as if it were not a glorious enough gift for their consideration.

And why should it be? It is not to be compared with what Satan has to offer. Free eternal life of joy forever for the single moment of confessing that Jesus is God/Lord/Savior and that in name only. They are free to go back to sin, but please don’t. In any case, they are free from hell and the only torment they must endure is an occasional sneer from those ‘fools’ who think the offer is too good to be true.

:roll:

I don't believe I passed some sort of Godly test ..."testing you, watching the results and the intents of your heart."
That sounds like I earned it somehow. And if I did earn it I can well assure you I was somewhere far removed from the front of the line.
I'll admit I've asked, "Why me?". I don't know and after 8 years I still can't answer that question. Sure, during my childhood I attended sunday school, went to church here and there for all the wrong reasons but I still had no desire whatsoever to know Christ.
I can honestly say I was first saved and through that salvation came the changing of the mind, on most if not all moral ideals I held so dear before. One by one my ideas on things changed. At first I thought nothing about having a few beers while reading the bible but it wasn't long at all before that was gone. Then my ideas of shacking up (co-habitation = PC) went next. It was a domino effect and only because I was saved was I able to see the errant ways in a true light. I could not change these things unless I knew first how and why they were wrong. Nor was there any desire to open a bible before that night.
Maybe repentance and salvation were only microseconds apart, quicker than I could think, I don't know, but there was no conscience effort on my part to change my ways when I didn't know any better in the first place. Like I said, I was doing ok. There was no reason to think about changing my entire constitution. But that's what happened. I wasn't "me" anymore.
I do know there is a purpose. Whether I've fulfilled that purpose or not I don't know. Nor do I believe I'll ever know in this life. But somewhere between then and when I die a purpose will have been done if not already. <shrugs>