Can true Christians lose their salvation ?

[francisdesales]

Francis
I will work on a rebutle as soon as I get the chance...
Let me ask you a Question though....Who was the book of Romans written to?
I will give you a hint. It was not written to the jews or non believers...If you understand that this book was written to believers (Christians) it will then begin to make sense....

Apparently, every Christian community of the day had to deal with Judaizers. It makes sense, since the first 50 years are a transition period where many Christians were once Jews. The decisions made in Acts 15 regading circumcision were probably not very popular, and some, such as James, still preferred to continue dietary restrictions for himself - as Paul relates in Galatians. Thus, the Jewish Christians are undergoing a MAJOR paradigm shift. Their rituals and what made them Jewish are no longer important in God's eyes. Couple that with Rome being one of the largest diaspora community, and you can understand why Paul wrote to Christians who wondered about the role of Judaism in the New Covenant (consider reading Rom 9-11, for example. Or dietary restrictions in Rom 14 - Paul's audience definitely had a Jewish tint to it).

As far as the early Saints go, I stand by what I said...Take Abraham for example... Why was he called a righteous man? If you say because of his faith, you would be right....It is because of his faith in God that God imputed ''his'' righteousness to Abraham....With out God, there is no man who is righteous no not one....On this side of the cross, there is still no one that is righteous, no not one...Only through Christ are we made righteous...More on this tomorrow.....

On this side of the cross? Is that some sort of code word? I don't know what on earth you are talking about...

With our God, there is no man who is righteous WITHOUT GOD! However, you cannot continue to ignore that many people are indeed called righteous - because of God, not their own works. Why the "either/or"? It is not a case of "God does everything" or "man does everything". Man is given commandments for the purpose of obeying them - and God gives man the ability to obey them. Thus, we participate with God in "working out our salvation", something we cannot do alone - but something that God does NOT do without us.

And as to "imputed", are you saying that God cannot undo what Adam did??? Why is it that Adam's sin, which wounds man INTERNALLY - NOT just imputed - is not corrected by God? Are you saying that Adam's sin is more powerful, being internal, than God's cure, which is NOT internal, according to you??? Read Romans 5. JUST AS Adam's sin effected the entire human race, the second Adam's redemption effected the entire human race. God MAKES us righteous again...

Regards

 

[AVBunyan]

What “typesâ€Â, AV?

The type that mixes Christ and works which = a lake of fire.
The type that seeks to talk folks out of their justification.
That type that talks tough about stomping on people's lollipops.

That type unred - get the picture?

Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 

[jgredline]

Francis and Jeff
Give me a few hours to put my thoughts together....
I am not making myself clear.....I actually agree with some of what you have said, but you guys are still missing the context of what Paul is saying....and I suspect it is all going to come down to justification.....for I believe that when I accepted Christ by Grace through Faith, I was at that very moment;, ''jUSTIFIED''....Catholic theology and those that believe works are a part of the salvation process will see things another way......
I will be going back to chapter 2 and go through chapter three...I will post it this afternoon or early evening...
Blessings,
p.s. Who is Joe?

 

[stovebolts]

AV,
Since Galatians is referring to Judaizers trying to enforce circumcision on the gentiles, I can see how you are relating this to your thread. However, Doesn’t Paul give Peter a wee spanking in Chapter 2, verse 11-13 for his hypocrisy on this matter (acts 10)? What do you think would have came of Peter if Paul had not set him straight? Hmm, seems Jesus once rebuked Peter as well… odd… Do you think Peter struggled with this shift in thinking?

 

[TanNinety]

The type that mixes Christ and works which = a lake of fire.

Faith = heaven
Faith + Works = lake of fire
Faith + (not going with the right doctrine) = lake of fire.

So AV, you are saying if someone does not get a doctrine right then they are heading to lake of fire. So if one has to not go to the lake of fire then they need to “work towards getting with the right doctrineâ€Â. How does this reconcile to your “faith only†doctrine? Seems like you just earned your salvation by knowing the “right things to know†and the rest lost theirs because they had faith but couldn't get with the right program? Doesn't their "faith" already not save them?

The type that seeks to talk folks out of their justification.

Revelation anyone? Who were being justified? Those who “overcame†sin with “endurance till the end†or those who had a “one time confession of faith�

That type that talks tough about stomping on people's lollipops.

You can freely eat of any of the trees in the garden, conditions do apply.
You can enter into the kingdom of God with free salvation, conditions do apply.

You see “free to eat fruit†but fail to look out for the “forbidden fruitâ€Â.
You see “free salvation†but fail to look out for “lawlessnessâ€Â. God hasn’t changed His commandments. God just moved His commandments from the stone tablets to our hearts.

But your posts belong in jg’s sister thread titled “am I saved? Or am I fooling myselfâ€Â, since you are talking about justification. This thread is about “true Christians and lsing salvationâ€Â. They are very closely related topics but I agree with jgredline that they do need separate discussions so as to keep this thread on topic.

 

[jgredline]

Ok Jeff, Francis......

Lets start first by establishing who this letter of Romans was written to....
This is crucial to the understanding of this magnificent work of Art. There is not more a richer book in all the Bible than Romans....it is also the richest and deepest in theology, perhaps only second to Hebrews.....

For the sake of context, I will be posting the complete section of scripture....The weapon of Choice will be the NKJV......
Romans chapter 1

Romans 1:1-7
1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. 5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:


OK, SO here we see that this letter was written to a church or a body of believers.... in the city of Rome. Who where the believers? There was a mix of both Jews and Gentiles...but NOTE: They were believers..(Christians)...

When Paul says ''we'' have received grace and apostleship, he is almost certainly using the editorial we, referring to himself alone. In the Greek it is the word λαμβάνω this is a Primary verb that really should have been translated as ''I''
His linking of apostleship with the nations or Gentiles points to him and not to the other apostles. I know this is of topic a little but its cool info... Paul was commissioned to call men of all nations to obedience of faith that is, to obey the message of the gospel by repenting and believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Among those who had responded to the gospel were those Paul dignified with the title the called of Jesus Christ, emphasizing that it was God who took the initiative in their salvation.
The Letter is addressed to all believers in Rome, and not (as in other Epistles) to a single church. The final chapter of the letter indicates that there were several gatherings of believers in the city, and this salutation embraces them all.
Beloved of God, called to be saints. These two lovely names are true of all who have been redeemed by the precious blood of Christ. Amen...? These favored ones are objects of divine love in a special way, and are also called to be set apart to God from the world, for that is the meaning of saints.
Paul’s message tells how believing Jews and Gentiles are now one new man in Christ. This is very important.....

The grace mentioned here is not the grace that saves, remeber; Paul’s readers were already saved... This is the grace that equips and empowers for Christian life and service.....
Grace and peace came from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, strongly implying the equality of the Son with the Father.

Whenever possible, Paul began his letters by expressing appreciation for whatever was commendable in his readers. (A good example for all of us!) Here he thanks God through Jesus Christ, the Mediator, that the faith of the Roman Christians was proclaimed throughout the whole world. Their testimony as Christians was talked about throughout the Roman Empire, which then constituted the whole world from the perspective of those living in the Mediterranean area.

Ok..So according to the first 7 verses, it should be clear that this letter was written to believers....

Now lets look at a few key points of this work of art......
Beginning in Romans 1:18 to Romans 3:20 Paul gives us a detailed description of the sinfulness of man.....
In Romans 3:21-5:11 an extensive discussion of justification by faith....
Then in Romans 5:12-8:39 an elaborate explanation of sanctification....
And then in Romans 9 begins a strong section on the doctrine of election.....

Now this is a rough outline, but need to be clear on this....
I will begin to work on the next section. Is there any objections so far.....?

 

[jgredline]

Romans 1:16-17 nkjv
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

I was going to skip this part, but it is simply to loaded to let it go....

I will take this oppertunity to explain what certain things mean to me.....
If you disagree, cool, tell me why...

Justification is the divine act of declaring sinners to be righteous on account of their faith in Jesus. He paid for their sins completely and finally on the Cross, and through faith in Him their sins can be forgiven....

Closely related to justification is regeneration, in which the Spirit of God indwells a repentant sinner and imparts eternal life to his or her spiritually dead soul.....

Sanctification is the process in which God develops the new life of the believer and gradually brings it to perfection.....

Glorification is the ultimate salvation of the whole person. This occurs when we are face to face with our Savior in His coming kingdom. At that time, God will completely mold us into the image of Christ . Then we will be able to enjoy complete fellowship with God, singing His praises forever....

Lets take a look at verse 17
The word righteousness occurs here for the first time in the Letter...The Greek word that is used here is ''δικαιοσύνη'', Simply put, in this context this word means '' the condition acceptable to God''....
The righteousness of God refers to His method of justifying ungodly sinners.... He can do this and still be righteous because Jesus as the sinless Substitute has satisfied all the claims of divine justice.....''Capiche'' OK
Again, the righteousness of God refers to the perfect standing which God provides for those who believe on His Son (2 Cor. 5:21).
Those who are not in themselves righteous are treated as if they were righteous because God sees them in all the perfection of Christ.

Righteousness is imputed to their account....Once they are justified....
When is a person Justified...? When Jesus becomes his or her Saviour by Grace through Faith alone.........and not by works !!!!!!

The righteousness of God is revealed in the gospel. First the gospel tells us that God’s righteousness demands that sins be punished, and the penalty is eternal torment in the lake of fire with Satan and his demons....

God’s love provided what His righteousness demanded. He sent His Son to die as a Substitute for sinners, paying the penalty in full. Now because His righteous claims have been fully satisfied, God can righteously save all those who avail themselves of the work of Christ.

God’s righteousness is revealed from faith to faith. From faith to faith means; faith is at the beginning of the salvation process, and it is the goal as well. When a person first exercises faith in Christ, that person is saved from the penalty of sin and declared righteous. As the believer lives by faith, God continues to save him or her from the power of sin to live righteously..... God’s righteousness is not imputed on the basis of works or made available to those who seek to earn or deserve it. It is revealed on the principle of faith alone. This is in perfect agreement with the divine decree in Habakkuk 2:4, “The just shall live by faith,†which may also be understood to mean “The justified-by-faith ones shall live.†Capiche....ok

So now we see that in the first seventeen verses of Romans, Paul has introduced his subject and stated briefly some of the principal points....
So while we are in Romans and speaking of Salvation, I suppose it would be good to ''briefly'' touch on a few things......

Are the heathen who have never heard the gospel lost? This is the next section coming up....Then,
Are the self-righteous moralists, whether Jews or Gentiles, lost?.....
Are God’s ancient earthly people, the Jews, lost?....

 

[AVBunyan]

Off Topic

Some feel I got off topic.

If I would have answer "no" to the question then you would have asked me to support my answer.

My answer would have been the same. God did a miraculous work at salvation and the saint cannot undo it.

Also, again if justification was settled then so would be this issue.

I still maintain based upon this thread that most do not understand what took place at Calvary.

With that being said...

I bid you folks farewell

 

[TanNinety]

Some feel I got off topic.

I did not mean any disrespect AV, if it was taken that way, I sincerely apologize. Your posts about how one is justified would go very well in jg’s other thread “Am I saved; or am I fooling myself?â€Â. When you start about justification the rest of us will have to defend our position of how one is justified and this thread will become another “faith or faith and works†discussion. Then jgredline will have to say ..

This thread is about can one loose his salvation so I don't want to hijack it...

again. Just avoiding it.

AV, if you want to answer my questions I can copy our relevant posts to another thread so you can defend your position.

 

[francisdesales]

Francis and Jeff
I actually agree with some of what you have said, but you guys are still missing the context of what Paul is saying....and I suspect it is all going to come down to justification.....for I believe that when I accepted Christ by Grace through Faith, I was at that very moment;, ''jUSTIFIED''....Catholic theology and those that believe works are a part of the salvation process will see things another way......
I will be going back to chapter 2 and go through chapter three...I will post it this afternoon or early evening...
Blessings,
p.s. Who is Joe?

Yes, you are correct, it will come down to definitions of justification, salvation, and sanctification and when they occur (or continue to occur). Not sure about the "Catholic theology" - but we'll see what happens when we define our terms.

My actual name is Joe

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Ok Jeff, Francis......

Lets start first by establishing who this letter of Romans was written to...

I agree. Romans is written to a Christian Body that consisted of former Gentiles and Jews. Thus, Romans 1-3 addresses both in sequential order

Beloved of God, called to be saints. These two lovely names are true of all who have been redeemed by the precious blood of Christ. Amen...? These favored ones are objects of divine love in a special way, and are also called to be set apart to God from the world, for that is the meaning of saints.

The word "saint" ALSO implies a response to divine love. God pours His love on ALL creation - but ALL creation does not respond in kind. Saints are those humans who respond, with the aid of God's grace, to His love from above.

The grace mentioned here is not the grace that saves, remeber; Paul’s readers were already saved... This is the grace that equips and empowers for Christian life and service.....

And here is where we will have to define our terms. You say "Paul's readers were already saved". In what sense? The Bible defines "salvation" in different ways. You are only considering the one event of the past where we proclaim our belief in Christ at Baptism. Is this the ONLY way that the Bible speaks of salvation? A past event? No. It also speaks of salvation as a present event AND a future event. Here, I believe, is the confusion that will exist when you try to explain your point of view. It only takes into consideration one part of Scripture's useage of "salvation".

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Justification is the divine act of declaring sinners to be righteous on account of their faith in Jesus. He paid for their sins completely and finally on the Cross, and through faith in Him their sins can be forgiven....

Scriptures speak of justification and sanctification interchangeably. For example, Abraham was considered justified during three separate occasions in his life, as James, Hebrews, and Romans relates. It is NOT ONLY one event. Justification is an ongoing process, just as much as sanctification is. Certainly, we are initially justified in God's eyes. But Scripture is all too clear that this justification does NOT guarantee eternal salvation in heaven. Thus, when we sin, we are not just! Certainly, we haven't lost Sonship with God - but we are estranged children when we willfully sin. Thus, salvation, sanctification and justification are all terms that really describe the same process, a journey to heaven and eternal communion with God.

I believe here is the heart of the matter. Our definitions of justification. Because you posit it to one event, you completely overlook all the times that the Scriptures tell us that previously saved individuals can fall away. You even come to invent the idea "he was never saved to begin with"!!! This places EVERY Christian's salvation in jeopardy - because we can never KNOW whether we had "enough" faith at the time of our initial justification. Hence, many Protestant brothers that I know are baptized over and over, or make altar calls over and over - to make sure the first one "took"...

With a different understanding of justification, you would ACCEPT that you were SAVED during your baptism. This doesn't guarantee eternal salvation. But by continuing to trust in God and call upon Him when we inevitably sin, we can be assured that in the end, our justification will be completed in heaven. This does not mean I am justified by my OWN works, because it is not I who lives, but Christ within me. What I do, I do in Christ - they are OUR works of love.

God’s righteousness is revealed from faith to faith. From faith to faith means; faith is at the beginning of the salvation process, and it is the goal as well. When a person first exercises faith in Christ, that person is saved from the penalty of sin and declared righteous. As the believer lives by faith, God continues to save him or her from the power of sin to live righteously.....

"From faith to faith" means it is an ongoing process! We are justified by God througout our lives - from each act of faith to the next. Nothing else matters but "faith working in love".

Regards

 

[AVBunyan]

I did not mean any disrespect AV, if it was taken that way, I sincerely apologize.

Thanks - No problem - I understand - no need to apologize.

These "lose it" threads never go anywhere because those that support this stand are basing everything on the wrong foundation.

There is a direct relationship between justification and "losing it" - they cannot be separated and that is why I brought justification up.

I am still of the opinion that many folks who vehemently defend n"losing it" are still unregenerated any way and therefore to discuss issue with these folks is futile - if you cannot get the foundation right then leave the "losing it" issue alone. it is a no-wini situation - no one will budge.

Now - For the sake of this thread I will gracefully bow out -

God bless

 

[stovebolts]

Javier,
I like the way you delve into scripture and yes, I would agree that Romans is very rich in both doctrine and theology. In your outline however, I am surprised that you did not link the book of Romans to Genesis as it reflects deeply from Genesis.

So let’s talk about Paul shall we? Wasn’t Saul an up and coming Pharisee? As such, Paul would have known the Torah very well. To those not well versed in Torah, his writings may seem a bit confusing, as does the book of Hebrews (suspected as written by Barnabus, the teacher of Paul who most certainly knew his Torah and Tenakh). Let me continue.
You stated,

Righteousness is imputed to their account....Once they are justified....
When is a person Justified...? When Jesus becomes his or her Saviour by Grace through Faith alone.........and not by works !!!!!!

First, you have once again omitted Ephesians 2:10. Do you not see the value in verse 10? This is why it appears that you create a false dichotomy between faith and works when they are in reality undividable.

My response, (I will be using the Net Bible)
James 2:21-26 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? You see that his faith was working together with his works and his faith was perfected by works. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Now Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness,†and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And similarly, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another way? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

I would claim that Paul, being fully aware of Torah, would be in full agreement with James, the brother of Jesus as both statements reflect heavily on the book of Genesis.

And so it comes full circle, can a true Christian loose their salvation.
I suppose it’s all on how you define “Trueâ€Â, for we will only know these things when we have endured as our faith is and will be continually tested through obedience.
1 Peter 1:7 Such trials show the proven character of your faith, which is much more valuable than gold – gold that is tested by fire, even though it is passing away – and will bring praise and glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.
And this, from the KJV
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

In summary, isn't that our purpose? To give Glory and Honor to God in every thing that we do by doing the work of our Lord?

 

[jgredline]

Jeff and Joe
Thank you so much for responding to my post. It is good to see that we are not
that far off....Jeff you are correct in the connection to Genesis and I had already covered the Gal verse in another post. I will see if I can find it not, I will re do it....There is only such much that one can cover in a forum...This is what makes it fun and I can honestly say, that I have learned so much, I feel like I am in bible school all over again

On a side note: I am going to have to cut back a little on the forum. I spend far to much time here and quite frankly I enjoy it very much, but it is affecting my work and home life a little much.....Tke yesterday. I started on the Romans 1 passage at lunch and a few hours later I was done with the post and guess what...My work did not get done for the day.....So Likely I will be on the forum once a day for corresponding and off corse through out the day simply moding....

Jeff and Joe.
Since I am limited on time now, I will spend as much time with both of you guys in this thread and see what we / I learn..

I will be back later to address your post directly.

 

[stovebolts]

Not a problem Javier. Take your time as I too am usually limited on my time.

I do enjoy learning and studying the Scriptures with you and Joe.
God Bless,
Jeff

The good works we are foreordained to do - Ephesians 2:10 etc - are thus out of sheer love, gratitude & worship: not in desperate panic & forlorn, false hope of somehow earning a place in Heaven

Agreed, with an added note that I do not believe anyone in this conversation believes that we can "Earn" our place in heaven. We labor in the Lord because He first loved us.

 

[jgredline]

Not a problem Javier. Take your time as I too am usually limited on my time.

I do enjoy learning and studying the Scriptures with you and Joe.
God Bless,
Jeff



Agreed, with an added note that I do not believe anyone in this conversation believes that we can "Earn" our place in heaven. We labor in the Lord because He first loved us.

Jeff
It seems that ''most'' of us would agree with that, but there are some here who don't...I will not name them, but they know who they are...

Iron sharpens iron. Not one of us has all the answers..

 

[francisdesales]

And so it comes full circle, can a true Christian loose their salvation.
I suppose it’s all on how you define “Trueâ€Â, for we will only know these things when we have endured as our faith is and will be continually tested through obedience.

I was thinking the same thing when I was looking at these posts, but I see you made the point here. WE will not know who is a "true" Christian because we cannot read the hearts of other men. As to ourselves, we have a tendency to place ourselves in a very nice light. Thus, the saints prayed that God would enlighten them to see themselves as God saw them - a truly humbling experience, judging by their response after receiving such revelation. I think if I was to have such a revelation, I would certainly take on a different view on life in general.

In summary, isn't that our purpose? To give Glory and Honor to God in every thing that we do by doing the work of our Lord?

"And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, [do] all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him." Col 3:17.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Joe,

In light of your 3/4 posts, & maybe folks' possibly misinterpreting the above word, I'll just emphasise the clear teaching of John 3, Romans 3, Galatians 2:15-16 & Ephesians 2:8-9 etc

Really & truly, we are saved only by the sheer grace of God, thru faith in Christ's atoning sacrifice

& we pass from darkness into light, from death into life, at the very moment of spiritual rebirth

I hope that you don't think I mean we earn our salvation? Certainly not. Yes, He is our righteousness BECAUSE he lives in me. As to spiritual rebirth, what about spiritual death that results after we sin again? See 1 John 5, 1 Cor 6, Gal 5, and Heb 11 for examples of this...

Remain in that state at death and you are throwing away a free gift. A fruitless man will not be saved.

& if we could possibly 'earn our ticket to Heaven', Christ would not have died to pay the penalty for every sin ever committed, past, present & future

And pray tell why aren't all men saved? Apparently, man's free will plays some role in the calculations. All the commands to obey, to have faith, to love, etc... They don't earn anything, but will you KEEP eternal life promised without them? Is that faith or love, to NOT obey God?

Regards

 

[golfjack]

reply

Fran, Here is a verse for you to chew on: When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, He said, IT IS FINISHED: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. ( John 19:30).

The final moment had come, and as it did, Jesus spoke some of the greatest, if not the greatest words in the Bible, IT IS FINISHED. There are those who suppose He meant that the suffering was finished or that the expression was the last sign of ebbing life. But rather it was an evidence that His work was done. Salvation had been completed. Alas, that so great a part of believers do not understand this. The Medieval Church lost sight of this truth completely. To them salvation was one of works, something to be earned by ffastings, pilgrimages, penances, invoking angels and saints, and human efforts. Salvation to them was not a FINISHED WORK. They had to complete it by their own efforts. So did Martin Luther labor in agony, never certain that his sins were all forgiven until at last he made the great discovery, when he heard the voice from heaven saying, the just shall live by faith. The atonement was truly finished. There was nothing left undone. And therein is God's greatest revelation to man. His salvation has been completed. All things are ready, is the word. There is nothing more to do but to accept it. There is no need to struggle and to labor but to quietly take what God has prepared at infinite sacrifice.


May God bless, golfjack