Can true Christians lose their salvation ?

[Solo]

Can Christians Lose Their Salvation? by Michael J. Penfold

Arriving at a clear understanding of the true nature of salvation represents the first step in settling the question of eternal security. The Bible clearly teaches that at the very moment of genuine repentance and saving faith a sinner is:

• Converted - turned around (Acts 3:19)
  [/*:m:1ocygm82]
• Reconciled - made at peace (2 Corinthians 5:19)
  [/*:m:1ocygm82]
• Sanctified - set apart for God (1 Corinthians 1:2)
  [/*:m:1ocygm82]
• Regenerated - given new life (1 Peter 1:23)
  [/*:m:1ocygm82]
• Redeemed - purchased or bought back (1 Peter 1:18)
  [/*:m:1ocygm82]
• Adopted - placed in God’s family as a son (Romans 8:15) and
  [/*:m:1ocygm82]
• Justified - declared righteous by God (Romans 3:28, 2 Corinthians 5:21).[/*:m:1ocygm82]

Furthermore the repentant sinner is sealed with, indwelt by, baptised in and anointed with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13, John 14:17, 1 Corinthians 12:13, 1 John 2:27). He receives eternal life (John 3:36) and because he is now ‘in Christ’, he is predestined to be conformed to Christ’s image (Romans 8:29). He has come from darkness to light, from death to life and from the power of Satan to God. Once he was blind but now he can see. Truly, he is blessed with all spiritual blessings (Ephesians 1:3)!

From the very first moment of faith in Christ, all of this is equally true of every single child of God. These are positional truths unrelated to and independent of changing human emotions and feelings. Think for a minute: if Christians can lose their salvation, God is reversing all these actions in the lives of hundreds of people daily.


But what about believers who sin?

Part of the reason why some people deny eternal security is due to their mistaken belief that when they were saved, God only forgave the sins they had committed up to that point in time. They feel they must keep confessing their sins daily to ‘stay saved’. If they commit a particularly bad sin, they will lose their salvation and need to be born again...again. However, the Bible is clear that when God justifies a sinner, He clears his guilt, past, present and future. The sinner is declared righteous on the basis of the propitiatory and substitutionary death of Christ. Think about it; when Christ died on the cross no one now living existed. All their sins were future! So, where are the sins of those who believe in Christ? They have been remitted and forgiven on the basis of their acceptance of the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ at Calvary. Christ gave Himself a ransom for all, and those who believe are justified from all things, from which they could not be justified by the law of Moses (Acts 13:39). God never reverses His justification of repentant sinners!

The daily sins of a believer must be confessed individually to God (1 John 1:9), but this is to maintain communion with Christ, not union with Christ. When God adopts into His family, a child of wrath becomes a son of God (1 John 3:1). Although a son in a human family may disobey his parents and be punished, nothing can change the fact of his sonship. Thus it is with a true child of God; the Lord will not cast him away.


Can Christians live as they like?

This seems a logical question at first sight, but it betrays a further misunderstanding of the nature of salvation. Paul encountered this objection when he expounded the twin truths of imputed righteousness and justification by ‘faith alone’ in Romans ch. 3. He states: ‘‘Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein? ’’ (Romans 6:2). He progresses the argument to explain that justified sinners have died to sin. Once the slaves of sin, they have now changed masters. Salvation never sets a man free to do as his sinful nature pleases. From the first moment, the new-born believer cries out ‘‘Lord, what do You want me to do’’ (Acts 9:5). There are no ‘free agents’ in the world, for all are either slaves of sin or bond-servants of Jesus Christ. When a sinner turns to God from idols, it is with a view to becoming God’s bond-slave (1 Thessalonians 1:9).

True believers who fall into sin will be chastened by their Father (Hebrews 12:6-11) and disciplined by their local church (1 Corinthians 5:4-5); but any professing Christians who live in sin and go unpunished, only prove they were never saved in the first place (Hebrews 12:8)  for ‘‘whoever is born of God does not practise sin’’ (1 John 3:9). Thus, the Bible does not teach that those who profess Christianity but then return to their sinful ways are still ‘guaranteed heaven’. The Bible repeatedly emphasises the fact that “the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God.†Judas exemplifies this truth. That he never lost his salvation is clear from the Lord’s words to the 12 disciples; ‘‘Ye are clean, but not all ’’ (John 13:10). Judas had never been to Christ for cleansing and forgiveness. His actions proved he was an apostate, not a backslider.


But what about all those tricky verses?

Well known evangelical speakers and writers in the UK, like David Pawson and Jacob Prasch, attempt to prove from the Bible that Christians can lose their salvation. What verses do they employ in their teaching? Here are six typical verses:

1. [*]‘‘If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned’’ (John 15:6).
   
   This verse concerns ‘abiding in Christ’ and refers to believers’ ‘communion’ - not ‘union’ - with Him. Thus the Lord Jesus Himself speaks in v10 of His own abiding in the Father. The figurative language of v6 speaks of one who, through lack of communion with Christ, loses his testimony before men (men gather and burn, not God).
   
   [/*:m:1ocygm82]
2. ‘‘...you have fallen from grace’’ (Galatians 5:4)
   
   While the epistle to the Romans proves that sinners are saved by ‘faith plus nothing’, Galatians proves they stay saved by ‘faith plus nothing’. The irony is that many who would abhor any thought of earning salvation by works, attempt to keep their salvation by works, which theologically amounts to the same thing. One cannot keep by works the gift one received by faith (Romans 6:23). ‘Falling from grace’ in the context of Galatians, refers to those who were trying to keep the law to ‘stay saved’ and had therefore fallen away from the true teaching of salvation through grace. They had lost their understanding of true salvation (unmerited grace), not salvation itself.
   
   [/*:m:1ocygm82]
3. ‘‘You...has He reconciled...if you continue in the faith’’ (Colossians 1:21-23)
   
   Does this verse teach conditional salvation? Not at all. Repeatedly in scripture, ‘if’ simply means ‘since’. One may be asked to turn off a light switch and reply, ‘‘If you say so’’. So here in Colossians, the fact that some continues in the faith furnishes the proof of their salvation; it is not put forth as a condition of salvation.
   
   [/*:m:1ocygm82]
4. ‘‘For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened...If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance’’ (Hebrews 6:6)
   
   In checking the context here, it is clear that those mentioned were enlightened but not saved. They tasted but did not drink. They experienced spiritual power but were not personally born again. These Jews had come out of Christ-rejecting Judaism into a knowledge of the truth, yet they had stopped short of actual faith in Christ. With full knowledge of the gospel, they had turned their backs on Christ. The context clearly shows that the author of Hebrews did not have true believers in mind here. Verse 9 states: ‘‘But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation.’’ In other words, no true believer can apostatise. (If this passage taught loss of salvation, the loss would be permanent  no repentance is possible according to v6).
   
   [/*:m:1ocygm82]
5. ‘‘For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins’’ (Hebrews 10:26)
   
   If this verse robs all deliberately sinning believers of salvation, then all are lost; for all believers commit deliberate sins. To avoid this particular doctrinal pitfall, it is vital to understand the ‘wilful sin’ in the context of the entire Hebrew epistle. Verse 26 refers to Jews who had come to a head-knowledge of the Messiah and then gone back to ritualistic Christ-rejecting Judaism. Then in v39 the position of true believers is contrasted with these Jewish apostates: ‘‘But we are not of those who draw back unto perdition; but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.’’ True believers may backslide, but they can never become apostate.
   
   [/*:m:1ocygm82]
6. ‘‘For if after they have escaped...they are again entangled...the latter end is worse with them than the beginning’’ (2 Peter 2:20-22)
   
   Again, this verse is about apostasy not ‘backsliding’. Believers are sheep (1 Peter 5:2), but here Peter is speaking of dogs and pigs (v22). They had a head-knowledge of the truth but had not truly repented. Finally, after an outward association with Christianity, they drifted back to the very depths of worldly pollution from which they had ‘escaped’.
   
   So, each verse that may appear at first glance to teach conditional salvation, can be seen on closer inspection to teach no such thing. There is no space to deal with other verses here, but reference to sound evangelical commentaries will furnish plenty of helpful exposition to clarify any further difficulties.[/*:m:1ocygm82]

4 Questions

Those who teach conditional salvation often avoid specifics. How would they answer the following questions:

• What sin causes loss of salvation?
  
  A theft? A swear word? A lie? Ten lies? 50 lies? No specific uniform answers are available, indicating the unsound foundation on which this error is built.
  
  [/*:m:1ocygm82]
• How does loss of salvation become known to an individual?
  
  Again, solid answers are not there, only nebulous suggestions.
  
  [/*:m:1ocygm82]
• How is salvation recovered?
  
  If salvation is through believing, how does one ‘believe again’? No one who has had Christ revealed to his soul could ever ‘believe again’. Interestingly, some cults who teach baptismal regeneration and conditional salvation do not insist on rebaptism once a ‘backslider’ has been ‘restored’. In other words, baptism is essential for salvation first time around, but not the second time  repentance is all that is needed!
  
  [/*:m:1ocygm82]
• Where in scripture is there an example of a true believer losing his salvation and then being saved again?
  
  There is not a single case of this type anywhere in the Bible. Some have suggested the case of the immoral man in 1 Corinthians ch. 5. However, scripture never indicates he lost his salvation. Once he was disciplined he truly repented, thus proving his genuineness  after which he was received back into the local church at Corinth (2 Corinthians 2:6-8).[/*:m:1ocygm82][/list:o:1ocygm82]
  
  
  Here now is a list of scriptures to prove the glorious truth of scripture  ‘once in Christ in Christ forever’.
  
  • John 5:24: ‘‘Verily, Verily, I say unto you, he that hears My word, and believes on Him who sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but has passed from death unto life.’’ This ‘passage’ is a one way street and carries no threat of reversal.
    
    John 10:27-28: ‘‘My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and [firstly] they shall never perish, [secondly] neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.’’ Some make an attempt to circumvent the clarity of eternal security as taught in this verse by saying that while no other man is able, a Christian can pluck himself out of the Father’s hand! Actually, the word ‘man’ is an italicised supplied word. The verse is simply teaching the no foe or force of any kind can ever sever the true believer from Christ.
    
    Ephesians 4:30: ‘‘And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.’’ The seal of ownership upon every believer is guaranteed to continue right through to the resurrection and beyond.
    
    Philippians 1:6: ‘‘Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.’’ God has promised to see Christians through to the day of Christ’s return.
    
    2 Timothy 1:12: ‘‘I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day.’’ If salvation depended on individuals, each one would have perished long ago. Thank God He is able to keep without losing even one weak believer.
  
  For further reading see also Hebrews 5:9, 10:14, 1 Peter 1:3-5, 1 John 5:11-13. The scriptural motivation for Christian service should not be fear of losing one’s salvation but rather love to Christ. How tragic that some attend church and read their Bibles driven by the fear that if they do not fulfil these duties they will be cast out. May the Lord graciously reveal the truth of eternal security and the believer’s new position in Christ, that bond-service to Him may become the most blessed freedom of all.
  
  Retrieved from http://www.webtruth.org/articles/theolo ... on-31.html

 

[XTruth]

For further reading see also Hebrews 5:9, 10:14, 1 Peter 1:3-5, 1 John 5:11-13. The scriptural motivation for Christian service should not be fear of losing one’s salvation but rather love to Christ. How tragic that some attend church and read their Bibles driven by the fear that if they do not fulfil these duties they will be cast out. May the Lord graciously reveal the truth of eternal security and the believer’s new position in Christ, that bond-service to Him may become the most blessed freedom of all.

Retrieved from http://www.webtruth.org/articles/theolo ... on-31.html

The motivation to obey God's commandments is 2-fold. It is not just b/c we love Him, or not just b/c we fear Him. It is 50% love for Him and 50% fear of His judgments against disobedience.
Eccl.12:13
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."

Some would say that the fear of the Lord is the main objective by this verse.

Jn.14:15
"If ye love me, keep my commandments."

Some would use this verse to say it's all about love.

Some would say that we are to examine every word of man against the Word of God to see if their sayings are true. I would agree, but even more, we should hold up the Word of God against the Word of God in order to make sure our own doctrines and interpretations are true.

If we fear the Lord's judgments against all sin, then we will obey His commandments, by doing so we have proved that he loves the Lord.
Jn.14:21-24
"21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me."

1 Pt.1:17
"And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:"

Take on all Scripture to understand a little Scripture. So if we fall short of keeping His commandments, then it is sin and must be repented of, b/c by God's standards, you don't love Him. This is where the fear comes from. We know that God must judge all unpardoned sin without partiality, favoritism, or repect to person. Only past sins are forgiven (Rom.3:25; 2 Pt.1:9) and future sin must be repented of, just as all your sins were the first time you repented (Lk.13:1-5; 1 Jn.1:9; 2:1-6; Rev.2:5, 16, 21, 22; 3:3, 19).

Heb.5:9
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" Notice the words "eternal salvation," which at the moment is only a hope for us Christians on earth (Rom.8:20-25; 15:4, 13; 1 Thes.5:8; 2 Thes.2:16; 1 Pt.1; 1 Cor.13:13; 15:19; Eph.2:12; Col.1:23; Tit.1:2; 3:7; Heb.3:6; 6:11, 11, 19; 7:19; Rom.13:11). Without obedience to His commandments, our faith is dead (Jas.2:14-26). And dead faith isn't the kind of faith that gets ya into heaven.

 

[Solo]

For further reading see also Hebrews 5:9, 10:14, 1 Peter 1:3-5, 1 John 5:11-13. The scriptural motivation for Christian service should not be fear of losing one’s salvation but rather love to Christ. How tragic that some attend church and read their Bibles driven by the fear that if they do not fulfil these duties they will be cast out. May the Lord graciously reveal the truth of eternal security and the believer’s new position in Christ, that bond-service to Him may become the most blessed freedom of all.

Retrieved from http://www.webtruth.org/articles/theolo ... on-31.html

The motivation to obey God's commandments is 2-fold. It is not just b/c we love Him, or not just b/c we fear Him. It is 50% love for Him and 50% fear of His judgments against disobedience.
Eccl.12:13
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."

Some would say that the fear of the Lord is the main objective by this verse.

Jn.14:15
"If ye love me, keep my commandments."

Some would use this verse to say it's all about love.

Some would say that we are to examine every word of man against the Word of God to see if their sayings are true. I would agree, but even more, we should hold up the Word of God against the Word of God in order to make sure our own doctrines and interpretations are true.

If we fear the Lord's judgments against all sin, then we will obey His commandments, by doing so we have proved that he loves the Lord.
Jn.14:21-24
"21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me."

1 Pt.1:17
"And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:"

Take on all Scripture to understand a little Scripture. So if we fall short of keeping His commandments, then it is sin and must be repented of, b/c by God's standards, you don't love Him. This is where the fear comes from. We know that God must judge all unpardoned sin without partiality, favoritism, or repect to person. Only past sins are forgiven (Rom.3:25; 2 Pt.1:9) and future sin must be repented of, just as all your sins were the first time you repented (Lk.13:1-5; 1 Jn.1:9; 2:1-6; Rev.2:5, 16, 21, 22; 3:3, 19).

Heb.5:9
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" Notice the words "eternal salvation," which at the moment is only a hope for us Christians on earth (Rom.8:20-25; 15:4, 13; 1 Thes.5:8; 2 Thes.2:16; 1 Pt.1; 1 Cor.13:13; 15:19; Eph.2:12; Col.1:23; Tit.1:2; 3:7; Heb.3:6; 6:11, 11, 19; 7:19; Rom.13:11). Without obedience to His commandments, our faith is dead (Jas.2:14-26). And dead faith isn't the kind of faith that gets ya into heaven.

None of the Scripture that you post negates the fact that once one is born again, one is eternally secure in Christ Jesus never having to fear losing the free gift of Salvation given to him/her.

It has been keenly noted but not surprising that you could not answer the four questions posted, nor comment made concerning the Scriptures presented:

• Those who teach conditional salvation often avoid specifics. How would they answer the following questions:
  
  
  • What sin causes loss of salvation?
    
    A theft? A swear word? A lie? Ten lies? 50 lies? No specific uniform answers are available, indicating the unsound foundation on which this error is built.
    
    
  • How does loss of salvation become known to an individual?
    
    Again, solid answers are not there, only nebulous suggestions.
    
    [/*:m:1gdmpsr7]
  • How is salvation recovered?
    
    If salvation is through believing, how does one ‘believe again’? No one who has had Christ revealed to his soul could ever ‘believe again’. Interestingly, some cults who teach baptismal regeneration and conditional salvation do not insist on rebaptism once a ‘backslider’ has been ‘restored’. In other words, baptism is essential for salvation first time around, but not the second time  repentance is all that is needed!
    
    [/*:m:1gdmpsr7]
  • Where in scripture is there an example of a true believer losing his salvation and then being saved again?
    
    There is not a single case of this type anywhere in the Bible. Some have suggested the case of the immoral man in 1 Corinthians ch. 5. However, scripture never indicates he lost his salvation. Once he was disciplined he truly repented, thus proving his genuineness  after which he was received back into the local church at Corinth (2 Corinthians 2:6-8).[/*:m:1gdmpsr7]
  
  
  Here now is a list of scriptures to prove the glorious truth of scripture  ‘once in Christ in Christ forever’.
  
  • John 5:24: ‘‘Verily, Verily, I say unto you, he that hears My word, and believes on Him who sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but has passed from death unto life.’’ This ‘passage’ is a one way street and carries no threat of reversal.
    
    John 10:27-28: ‘‘My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and [firstly] they shall never perish, [secondly] neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.’’ Some make an attempt to circumvent the clarity of eternal security as taught in this verse by saying that while no other man is able, a Christian can pluck himself out of the Father’s hand! Actually, the word ‘man’ is an italicised supplied word. The verse is simply teaching the no foe or force of any kind can ever sever the true believer from Christ.
    
    Ephesians 4:30: ‘‘And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.’’ The seal of ownership upon every believer is guaranteed to continue right through to the resurrection and beyond.
    
    Philippians 1:6: ‘‘Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.’’ God has promised to see Christians through to the day of Christ’s return.
    
    2 Timothy 1:12: ‘‘I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day.’’ If salvation depended on individuals, each one would have perished long ago. Thank God He is able to keep without losing even one weak believer.

• [/*:m:1gdmpsr7][/list:u:1gdmpsr7]

 

[oneisgod]

The answer is Yes:-

Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, 27 but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgment and [there is] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition. 28 Any man that has disregarded the law of Moses dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three. 29 Of how much more severe a punishment, do YOU think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt? 30 For we know him that said: “Vengeance is mine; I will recompenseâ€Â; and again: “Jehovah will judge his people.†31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of [the] living God.

 

[XTruth]

For further reading see also Hebrews 5:9, 10:14, 1 Peter 1:3-5, 1 John 5:11-13. The scriptural motivation for Christian service should not be fear of losing one’s salvation but rather love to Christ. How tragic that some attend church and read their Bibles driven by the fear that if they do not fulfil these duties they will be cast out. May the Lord graciously reveal the truth of eternal security and the believer’s new position in Christ, that bond-service to Him may become the most blessed freedom of all.

Retrieved from http://www.webtruth.org/articles/theolo ... on-31.html

The motivation to obey God's commandments is 2-fold. It is not just b/c we love Him, or not just b/c we fear Him. It is 50% love for Him and 50% fear of His judgments against disobedience.
Eccl.12:13
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."

Some would say that the fear of the Lord is the main objective by this verse.

Jn.14:15
"If ye love me, keep my commandments."

Some would use this verse to say it's all about love.

Some would say that we are to examine every word of man against the Word of God to see if their sayings are true. I would agree, but even more, we should hold up the Word of God against the Word of God in order to make sure our own doctrines and interpretations are true.

If we fear the Lord's judgments against all sin, then we will obey His commandments, by doing so we have proved that he loves the Lord.
Jn.14:21-24
"21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me."

1 Pt.1:17
"And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:"

Take on all Scripture to understand a little Scripture. So if we fall short of keeping His commandments, then it is sin and must be repented of, b/c by God's standards, you don't love Him. This is where the fear comes from. We know that God must judge all unpardoned sin without partiality, favoritism, or repect to person. Only past sins are forgiven (Rom.3:25; 2 Pt.1:9) and future sin must be repented of, just as all your sins were the first time you repented (Lk.13:1-5; 1 Jn.1:9; 2:1-6; Rev.2:5, 16, 21, 22; 3:3, 19).

Heb.5:9
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" Notice the words "eternal salvation," which at the moment is only a hope for us Christians on earth (Rom.8:20-25; 15:4, 13; 1 Thes.5:8; 2 Thes.2:16; 1 Pt.1; 1 Cor.13:13; 15:19; Eph.2:12; Col.1:23; Tit.1:2; 3:7; Heb.3:6; 6:11, 11, 19; 7:19; Rom.13:11). Without obedience to His commandments, our faith is dead (Jas.2:14-26). And dead faith isn't the kind of faith that gets ya into heaven.

None of the Scripture that you post negates the fact that once one is born again, one is eternally secure in Christ Jesus never having to fear losing the free gift of Salvation given to him/her.

It has been keenly noted but not surprising that you could not answer the four questions posted, nor comment made concerning the Scriptures presented:

• Those who teach conditional salvation often avoid specifics. How would they answer the following questions:
  
  
  • What sin causes loss of salvation?
    
    A theft? A swear word? A lie? Ten lies? 50 lies? No specific uniform answers are available, indicating the unsound foundation on which this error is built.
    
    
  • How does loss of salvation become known to an individual?
    
    Again, solid answers are not there, only nebulous suggestions.
    
    [/*:m:18zhzlrw]
  • How is salvation recovered?
    
    If salvation is through believing, how does one ‘believe again’? No one who has had Christ revealed to his soul could ever ‘believe again’. Interestingly, some cults who teach baptismal regeneration and conditional salvation do not insist on rebaptism once a ‘backslider’ has been ‘restored’. In other words, baptism is essential for salvation first time around, but not the second time  repentance is all that is needed!
    
    [/*:m:18zhzlrw]
  • Where in scripture is there an example of a true believer losing his salvation and then being saved again?
    
    There is not a single case of this type anywhere in the Bible. Some have suggested the case of the immoral man in 1 Corinthians ch. 5. However, scripture never indicates he lost his salvation. Once he was disciplined he truly repented, thus proving his genuineness  after which he was received back into the local church at Corinth (2 Corinthians 2:6-8).[/*:m:18zhzlrw]
  
  
  Here now is a list of scriptures to prove the glorious truth of scripture  ‘once in Christ in Christ forever’.
  
  • John 5:24: ‘‘Verily, Verily, I say unto you, he that hears My word, and believes on Him who sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but has passed from death unto life.’’ This ‘passage’ is a one way street and carries no threat of reversal.
    
    John 10:27-28: ‘‘My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and [firstly] they shall never perish, [secondly] neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.’’ Some make an attempt to circumvent the clarity of eternal security as taught in this verse by saying that while no other man is able, a Christian can pluck himself out of the Father’s hand! Actually, the word ‘man’ is an italicised supplied word. The verse is simply teaching the no foe or force of any kind can ever sever the true believer from Christ.
    
    Ephesians 4:30: ‘‘And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.’’ The seal of ownership upon every believer is guaranteed to continue right through to the resurrection and beyond.
    
    Philippians 1:6: ‘‘Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.’’ God has promised to see Christians through to the day of Christ’s return.
    
    2 Timothy 1:12: ‘‘I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day.’’ If salvation depended on individuals, each one would have perished long ago. Thank God He is able to keep without losing even one weak believer.

• [/*:m:18zhzlrw][/list:u:18zhzlrw]

• 
  I was pointing out the very reasons to obey the commandments, which you had conveniently left out and even refuted half. But of course you don't fear the Lord, what's there to fear if salvation is secure?...a lost jewel in my crown of righteousness? That's really not scary. It also makes the 300 + verses that tell us to fear Him kinda of stupid and worthless if His judgment is never against us...to destroy us (Hos.4:6-9; 1 Cor.3:16-17), but oh yes, you have decided that the destruction of God toward the Born again son is only to destroy his body, not his soul. But what about 1 Thes.5:9? (9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ). The fear of the Lord actually does prove that once a person is born again they can lose their salvation.
  
  HERE, YOU WANT A PLAIN EXAMPLE???
  
  Acts 5:1-11
  Example of Ananias and Sapphira
  1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
  2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
  3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
  4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
  5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
  6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
  7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
  8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
  9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
  10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
  11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
  This husband and wife duo has become an illustration to us all by being the first examples of judgment on all who sin. Well, not really. That’s kind of one of the central themes started back in Genesis 2:17. But this is the first reported incident of sin from any members in the early church and it’s result. It appears that sin still condemns. But that’s not what I was brought up to believe, so lets investigate every angle from an open mind.
  
  Long has been the idea that God can’t see “Christian’s†sins and all He sees is the blood of Jesus that covers all sins. That’s true to an extent. God can’t see a Christian’s past sins because they are atoned for, pardoned, and forgotten. Certain popular belief seems to imply a never ending flow of Jesus’ blood that automatically washes future sins away or that our righteous white robes are stain resistant. Neither of which is true, as only past sins are forgiven and any unconfessed future sins can only be justified if they are repented of (Refer to Romans 3:25). Sin is never accepted by God and will never be tolerated; whether Atheist, Agnostic, Old Testament Jew, or New Testament Christian.
  
  So what does all this mean? Were they saved at all? That’d be the best question for the ‘unbelievers of losing salvation’ to ask. After all, when at loss for a good explanation, just pull out the ‘never were saved’ card. Or, if proven they were saved, then they weren’t really condemned. There are only two small problems with those theories that overlap this warning from God to the rest of us. The man named Ananias and his wife Sapphira were saved, and later condemned to spend eternity out of the presence of the One they originally gave their lives to.
  
  Let’s start with the first and most logical rebuttal; they never saved. This won’t be tricky at all to dispute bearing in mind the point in time they lived in. It’s not like claiming to be a Christian in 21st century America, or being a member of a church. These people were dying for their faith. No one would’ve been obliged to fake the funk back then. No one’s getting persecuted by means of imprisonment, scourging, beaten with rods, whipped above measure, stoned to death or beheaded unless they have a genuine relationship with Christ that they would never compromise.
  
  Of course, that was just Paul (2 Cor.11:23-25), but he was part of the 1st Century church and this was the kind of hatred the people bore for them. Others were burned at the stake, crucified, devoured and eaten by wild animals for the entertainment of others, hung, thrown in boiling oil, speared to death, beaten to death by clubs, and many other forms of persecution that their executioners could imagine. Either you lived it or you didn’t. But no one lied about it.
  That’s all historical fact giving strong evidentiary support, but not enough to win a court case. The only thing really written about persecution from Acts so far is from Acts 4:3, 17. So, let’s look at the biblical evidence to determine whether or not these two people were saved. Acts 4:33 says, “Great grace was upon them all.†This was the entire grouping of believers; this statement represented the entire apostolic church. It was also said repeatedly about the 1st century church members that they were all in one accord, in one mind, of one heart and one soul. The following is just a listing of the times this is stated before the death of Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 1:14; 2:1, 46; 4:24, 32). They were, without question, born again members of this church before lying to the Holy Spirit.
  
  It would’ve been interesting to hear the messages preached back then. I’m sure they were all about results of sin, righteousness, and the works of Jesus. There were probably not many teachings about how God desires everyone to be wealthy with earthly riches or how you must be in sin or out of the will of God if you’re getting persecuted. We’ve proved very simply that they had a real experience of salvation. Now it’s time to prove they lost this free gift through the sins of lying to the Holy Spirit and keeping back part of the price of the possession that was fully intended for the ministry of the church. Romans 1:29-31 says none of them that are unrighteous, wicked, covetous, deceitful, or breakers of covenants are held guiltless in God’s judgment. This couple was guilty of all the above. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21; and Revelation 21:8 confirm this, while making it more clear that those guilty of such acts will not inherit the kingdom of God; rather, they will spend eternity in the lake of fire with hell and all the unrighteous.
  
  By looking up the various definitions of blasphemy in the dictionary, there is strong evidence that a direct lie to the Holy Spirit, as done in verse 3 and 4, would be considered blasphemous. In which case, there is no longer a sacrifice for their sins, making it impossible to renew them again, and are eternally damned (Mk.3:29; Heb:6:4-6; 1 Jn.5:16). After looking at the evidence from historical facts and biblical truths, and without going in circles to fill more pages, we should see clearly from point A to point B that Ananias and Sapphira had salvation and then, lost salvation. In case any doubt is left, lets use our common sense. Who killed them? It was either God or Satan. Would Satan want two Christians dead who lied and stole from God? Christians like this are too valuable to him to dispose of. They are leavened and could quickly spread more sin throughout the church (1 Cor.5:6-8; Gal.5:9), which could have divided and stopped the early church from spreading (Mat.12:25-26).
  
  It is written as if God unswervingly judged them and killed them on the spot. Verse 5 tells of the great fear that fell upon all who saw and heard of this. They didn’t fear Satan for they knew God’s authority was a great measure above his. Dozens of times through Scripture the fear of the Lord is spoken of to those who are already His; whether by illustration (Gen.3:8; 22:12), or by direct commands and warnings that the righteous should still fear Him (from Exodus 20:20 through Revelation 19:5). Did God punish and kill the righteous on spot just to reward them by bringing them into His eternal presence? God does not appoint His children to suffer His anger (1 Thess.5:9; Gen.6:17-22; Gen.19:22; Gen.22:12).

 

[turnorburn]

Lets take a look at the will of God here what does he say in verses 37 thru 39

John 6:1 After these things Jesus went over the sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias.
2 And a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased.
3 And Jesus went up into a mountain, and there he sat with his disciples.
4 And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.
5 When Jesus then lifted up his eyes, and saw a great company come unto him, he saith unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat?
6 And this he said to prove him: for he himself knew what he would do.
7 Philip answered him, Two hundred pennyworth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may take a little.
8 One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother, saith unto him,
9 There is a lad here, which hath five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many?
10 And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.
11 And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would.
12 When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost.
13 Therefore they gathered them together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten.
14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.
15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
16 And when even was now come, his disciples went down unto the sea,
17 And entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus was not come to them.
18 And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew.
19 So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid.
20 But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid.
21 Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went.
22 The day following, when the people which stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was none other boat there, save that one whereinto his disciples were entered, and that Jesus went not with his disciples into the boat, but that his disciples were gone away alone;
23 (Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks
24 When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus.
25 And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither?
26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

 

[Solo]

HERE, YOU WANT A PLAIN EXAMPLE???

Acts 5:1-11
Example of Ananias and Sapphira
1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
This husband and wife duo has become an illustration to us all by being the first examples of judgment on all who sin. Well, not really. That’s kind of one of the central themes started back in Genesis 2:17. But this is the first reported incident of sin from any members in the early church and it’s result. It appears that sin still condemns. But that’s not what I was brought up to believe, so lets investigate every angle from an open mind.

Again, None of the Scripture that you post negates the fact that once one is born again, one is eternally secure in Christ Jesus never having to fear losing the free gift of Salvation given to him/her.

No where in Scripture are Ananias and Sapphira said to be born again. If they were not born again, there is no debate concerning the topic; however, if they were born again, it shows that there is judgment to the physical well-being of a believer to the point of physical death for allowing sin in one's life. If Ananias and Sapphira were born again, their physical bodies were destroyed, yet their born again spirits saved as Paul reveals in 1 Corinthians 5:5.

• 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Also, It has been keenly noted but not surprising that you could not answer the four questions posted, nor comment made concerning the Scriptures presented:

• Those who teach conditional salvation often avoid specifics. How would they answer the following questions:
  
  
  • What sin causes loss of salvation?
    
    A theft? A swear word? A lie? Ten lies? 50 lies? No specific uniform answers are available, indicating the unsound foundation on which this error is built.
    
    
  • How does loss of salvation become known to an individual?
    
    Again, solid answers are not there, only nebulous suggestions.
    
    [/*:m:34so1r25]
  • How is salvation recovered?
    
    If salvation is through believing, how does one ‘believe again’? No one who has had Christ revealed to his soul could ever ‘believe again’. Interestingly, some cults who teach baptismal regeneration and conditional salvation do not insist on rebaptism once a ‘backslider’ has been ‘restored’. In other words, baptism is essential for salvation first time around, but not the second time  repentance is all that is needed!
    
    [/*:m:34so1r25]
  • Where in scripture is there an example of a true believer losing his salvation and then being saved again?
    
    Again, there is not a single case of this type anywhere in the Bible. Some have suggested the case of the immoral man in 1 Corinthians ch. 5. However, scripture never indicates he lost his salvation. Once he was disciplined he truly repented, thus proving his genuineness  after which he was received back into the local church at Corinth (2 Corinthians 2:6-8).[/*:m:34so1r25]
  
  
  Here now is a list of scriptures to prove the glorious truth of scripture  ‘once in Christ in Christ forever’.
  
  • John 5:24: ‘‘Verily, Verily, I say unto you, he that hears My word, and believes on Him who sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but has passed from death unto life.’’ This ‘passage’ is a one way street and carries no threat of reversal.
    
    John 10:27-28: ‘‘My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and [firstly] they shall never perish, [secondly] neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.’’ Some make an attempt to circumvent the clarity of eternal security as taught in this verse by saying that while no other man is able, a Christian can pluck himself out of the Father’s hand! Actually, the word ‘man’ is an italicised supplied word. The verse is simply teaching the no foe or force of any kind can ever sever the true believer from Christ.
    
    Ephesians 4:30: ‘‘And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.’’ The seal of ownership upon every believer is guaranteed to continue right through to the resurrection and beyond.
    
    Philippians 1:6: ‘‘Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.’’ God has promised to see Christians through to the day of Christ’s return.
    
    2 Timothy 1:12: ‘‘I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day.’’ If salvation depended on individuals, each one would have perished long ago. Thank God He is able to keep without losing even one weak believer.

• [/*:m:34so1r25][/list:u:34so1r25]

 

[John637]

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.†(John 10:25-30 ESV)

Jesus does not lie friends and nothing--not Satan, not your sin, or this world--can take you out of His hands.

 

[Eccl12and13]

QUESTION - If your name is written in God's book does that grant you eternal life? Are you considered Saved? Is your salvation guaranteed?

 

[XTruth]

• Those who teach conditional salvation often avoid specifics. How would they answer the following questions:

• 
  Have I been so vague, or have you simply interpreted my post like you do Scripture?
  
  

  • What sin causes loss of salvation?

  • 
    Any sin from a lie to a murder (Rev.21:8; Eze.18:24-26)
    
    

    A theft? A swear word? A lie? Ten lies? 50 lies? No specific uniform answers are available, indicating the unsound foundation on which this error is built.

    One sin damned the righteous man Adam and the entire world from that time til this time (Rom.5:12-21). The answer is clearly given in the first 3 chapters of the Word.
    
    
    

    [*]How does loss of salvation become known to an individual?

    The conviction of the Holy Spirit, reading and studying your Bible and accepting what is written. How did it become known to you the first time, which caused you to repent?
    
    

    Again, solid answers are not there, only nebulous suggestions.

    If I haven't been perfectly clear with solid answers, then feel free to question some more; however, I don't feel that I've just said any of this for the first time.
    
    
    

    [*]How is salvation recovered?

    Repent (Eze.3:18-21; 18:20-32; 33:12-20; Mat.3:1-6; Mk.1:15; Lk.13:3, 5; 1 Jn.1:9; 2:1-6; Rev.2:5, 16, 21-22; 3:3, 19)
    
    

    If salvation is through believing, how does one ‘believe again’? No one who has had Christ revealed to his soul could ever ‘believe again’. Interestingly, some cults who teach baptismal regeneration and conditional salvation do not insist on rebaptism once a ‘backslider’ has been ‘restored’. In other words, baptism is essential for salvation first time around, but not the second time  repentance is all that is needed!

    That is interesting; however, I know I've never said that one must be baptized to be saved (Lk.23:43). So are you saying that ALL who believe that salvation is conditional are in a cult?
    I'm sure I'd receive another warning for that comment, but I guess it's okay from you.

 

[XTruth]

[*]Where in scripture is there an example of a true believer losing his salvation and then being saved again?

Again, there is not a single case of this type anywhere in the Bible. Some have suggested the case of the immoral man in 1 Corinthians ch. 5. However, scripture never indicates he lost his salvation. Once he was disciplined he truly repented, thus proving his genuineness  after which he was received back into the local church at Corinth (2 Corinthians 2:6-8).[/list]

The man in 1 Cor.5:5 does prove a lost salvation.

1 Thes.5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Chr

Job 10:14
If I sin, then thou markest me, and thou wilt not acquit me from mine iniquity.

Nah.1:2-3
God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.
The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

Num.14:18
The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Ex.34:7
Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Not even by means of grace, for grace was never said to be an automatic covering for unrepented sin. What makes one guilty??? 1 Jn.3:4 "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." The "whosoever" of this verse, when looking up the Greek definition, is the same "whosoever" used in John 3:16. :shades


Also:
Adam and Eve - Genesis 2:17; 3:4-19; Rom.5:12-21; 2 Cor.11:3
Esau - Genesis 25:31-34; Heb.12:15-17
Aaron - Exodus 32:1-6
Nadab and Abihu - Leviticus 10:1-7
Korah, Dathan, Abiram, 250 Holy Men, and Thousands More - Numbers 16:1-35
The Prophet Balaam - Numbers 22:5 – 24:25
Saul - 1 Samuel 9:1 – 31:4
David - 2 Samuel 11:1 – 12:14; Psalms 51
Lucifer - Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezekiel 28:11-18
Judas - Psalms 109:13; Matthew 27:3; Jn.17:12; Acts 1:20-25
Peter’s First Lost Salvation - Mark 14:27-31
Lot’s Wife - Genesis 19:26; Luke 17:30-35
Many Disciples - John 6:60-69
Ananias and Sappira - Acts 5:1-11
The Adamites - Romans 5:12-21
Peter’s Second Lost Salvation - Galatians 2:11-14
Barnabas - Galatians 2:11-14
The Galatians - Galatians 5:1-7
Demas - Colossians 4:14
Hymenaeus and Alexander - 1 Timothy 1:19-20
The Many Young Widows - 1 Timothy 5:11-15
The Many Others - 1 Timothy 6:6-10; 17-21
Hymenaeus and Philetus - 2 Timothy 2:17-18
The Demons - James 2:19
The Apostates -Romans 1:19-32; Heb.6:4-9; 10:26-31; 2 Peter 2:20-22
Israel - Judges 2:11-13; Rom.11:17-24; 1 Cor.10:1-12; Heb.12:25; Jude 5
The Holy Angels - Gen.6:1-4; Job 38:4-7; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 6
Many Churches - Revelation 2:1 – 3:22

 

[Paidion]

Pogo, it's a good idea to read a complete Biblical sentence before interpreting a portion of it:

This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he makes righteous him who has faith in Jesus.

In former times, under the old covenant God passed over former sins (when the Hebrews sacrificed animals to him). God never wanted their sacrifices, but they insisted on sacrificing to their God just as the heathen sacrificed to their gods. So, as a concession God accepted their sacrifices and overlooked their sins. In Jeremiah we read that God never asked for sacrifices when God brought the Israelites out of Egypt. What He asked for was their obedience (which they did not give).

But at the present time the day in which the writer of Hebrews lived, a day after Christ died on our behalf, God doesn't pass over sins anymore. He requires man to deal with sins. They are dealt with through the death and resurrection of Christ. Christ died for this very purpose.

1 Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness.

Also:

Acts 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent.

 

[shad]

Paidion,

Do you mean "solo" instead of "pogo?

 

[butxifxnot]

Hi Folks
I have decided to start this thread to discuss if ''True Christians'' can loose their salvation.....

First off, let me say that I am a very, very logic-oriented person.

Now, the whole "true Christian" debate is a textbook definition of what rhetoricians call the "No true Scotsman" fallacy. Ask me if you'd like a link to a more formal definition.
But the "No true Scotsman" fallacy is basically this scenario:

Argument: "This is the way fact X is."
Retort: "What about this counterexample?"
Argument: "Because your example arguing against my fact does not fit fact X, your counterexample is not valid."

An example:
"No true scotsman would turn down a beer at 9:00pm."
"My buddy O'Reilly would turn down a beer at 9:00pm, so you're wrong."
"No, I'm not wrong: O'Reilly just isn't a true scotsman."

BOTH sides are guilty of fallacious reasoning. The fallacy of "No True Scotsman" is in saying that a person can be a scotsman, but not a TRUE scotsman. Logically, either the person is a scotsman or not: if the qualifications for being a true scotsman is such that a scotsman could be a non-true scotsman, then the argument is not logical.

So.
Either a person is a Christian or not. If they change their minds, then they are simply ex-Christians. They followed Christ, but then turned away.
To say "Oh, Once Saved, Always Saved. They just were never true Christians" is illogical and only brings ridicule from those who think in terms of rational logic. Not to mention OSAS gives DISobedient Christians a false sense of security.
It's a horrible theology. Jesus says "STRIVE to enter the narrow gate...OVERCOME this world so that I will not blot out your name from my Book." Jesus would not have worded that caveat in Revelation that way unless He will blot out names from His book those who turn away from Him.

There are many passages that teach that those who are truly born again, who are genuinely Christians, will continue (persevere) in the Christian life until death and will then go to be with Christ in heaven. Jesus says,

You could just as easily (and more logically) say that you decide to become a Christian, and then struggle to remain one.

Not this whole "You were never saved because you turned your back on your conversion."

Another passage emphasizing this truth is John 10:27–29, in which Jesus says:
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Sheep can still leave of their own accord. This statement is only in reference to the wolves who seek to devour the sheep.
Jesus here says that His sheep have these qualities:
1) they hear His voice
2) He knows them
3) they FOLLOW HIM
4) they are (then) given eternal life
5) they will not perish (note: "shall never perish". It does not say that they are imperishable)

1-3 are qualifiers: the sheep who hear His voice and follow for a while, but decide to leave the shepherd's care, are no longer His sheep, because they do not fit the qualifying criteria. They are then NOT given the eternal life.

 

[Solo]

Only those who are born again have eternal life, and those who are born again are likened to sheep by our LORD and SAVIOR; and those who are born again and are His sheep hear his voice. Those who are not His sheep do not hear His voice; therefore, those that read and understand his words in the following Scripture will recognize that once one is born again and a child of God, a sheep in Jesus' sheep fold there is absolutely nothing that will cause one to lose their Salvation.

• 1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. 6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them. 7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
  
  19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings. 20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him? 21 Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?
  
  22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. 24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
  
  39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand, 40 And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode. 41 And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true. 42 And many believed on him there. John 10:1-42

And the Holy Spirit seals us with the security of Salvation until we are fully redeemed at Christ's coming.

• 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:11-14

Only those born again, born from above, born of God are saved can hear the voice of Jesus' in the Scriptures, and know the spiritual things of God because of the sealing of the Holy Spirit that lives inside us. Those who do not have the sealing of the Holy Spirit, and will come to naught in the day of Jesus Christ; and there be some who will cry out, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?" Jesus Christ will then proclaim that they were NEVER born again, for He will say to them, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matthew 7:21-23).

Those who are born again can understand the spiritual things of God such as the security of the believer in Christ Jesus, but those are not born again cannot know the spiritual things of God for they are foolishness to them.

• 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth F6 all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:12-16

Those who are born of God will prayerfully study the scriptures referenced above, and will be given confirmation that the eternal security of salvation resides in the work of Jesus Christ, and no other. Those who do not get this confirmation better re-examine whether they have been born again or not.

It is my discernment that only half of the posters on this forum are born again, but God Almighty can bring those who are not to Salvation as they humble themselves and submit to Him.

 

[XTruth]

Only those who are born again have eternal life, and those who are born again are likened to sheep by our LORD and SAVIOR; and those who are born again and are His sheep hear his voice. Those who are not His sheep do not hear His voice; therefore, those that read and understand his words in the following Scripture will recognize that once one is born again and a child of God, a sheep in Jesus' sheep fold there is absolutely nothing that will cause one to lose their Salvation.

• 1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. 6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them. 7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
  
  19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings. 20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him? 21 Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?
  
  22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. 24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
  
  39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand, 40 And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode. 41 And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true. 42 And many believed on him there. John 10:1-42

And the Holy Spirit seals us with the security of Salvation until we are fully redeemed at Christ's coming.

• 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Ephesians 1:11-14

Only those born again, born from above, born of God are saved can hear the voice of Jesus' in the Scriptures, and know the spiritual things of God because of the sealing of the Holy Spirit that lives inside us. Those who do not have the sealing of the Holy Spirit, and will come to naught in the day of Jesus Christ; and there be some who will cry out, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?" Jesus Christ will then proclaim that they were NEVER born again, for He will say to them, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matthew 7:21-23).

Those who are born again can understand the spiritual things of God such as the security of the believer in Christ Jesus, but those are not born again cannot know the spiritual things of God for they are foolishness to them.

• 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth F6 all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:12-16

Those who are born of God will prayerfully study the scriptures referenced above, and will be given confirmation that the eternal security of salvation resides in the work of Jesus Christ, and no other. Those who do not get this confirmation better re-examine whether they have been born again or not.

It is my discernment that only half of the posters on this forum are born again, but God Almighty can bring those who are not to Salvation as they humble themselves and submit to Him.

Fine and dandy, but I gave you specific answers to your statement about there not being any examples of condemned people who once had eternal life....all that work and totally ignoring me by copying and pasting yet many more Scriptures that don't prove your case. How rude :gah :eyebrow
I've proven those Scripture to coincide the conditional security doctrine that doesn't leave room to contradict any other verses, as have many others...but I will do it again if needed, just thought I'd try not to go in circles; aren't you dizzy yet?

Adam and Eve - Genesis 2:17; 3:4-19; Rom.5:12-21; 2 Cor.11:3
Esau - Genesis 25:31-34; Heb.12:15-17
Aaron - Exodus 32:1-6
Nadab and Abihu - Leviticus 10:1-7
Korah, Dathan, Abiram, 250 Holy Men, and Thousands More - Numbers 16:1-35
The Prophet Balaam - Numbers 22:5 – 24:25
Saul - 1 Samuel 9:1 – 31:4
David - 2 Samuel 11:1 – 12:14; Psalms 51
Lucifer - Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezekiel 28:11-18
Judas - Psalms 109:13; Matthew 27:3; Jn.17:12; Acts 1:20-25
Peter’s First Lost Salvation - Mark 14:27-31
Lot’s Wife - Genesis 19:26; Luke 17:30-35
Many Disciples - John 6:60-69
Ananias and Sappira - Acts 5:1-11
The Adamites - Romans 5:12-21
Peter’s Second Lost Salvation - Galatians 2:11-14
Barnabas - Galatians 2:11-14
The Galatians - Galatians 5:1-7
Demas - Colossians 4:14
Hymenaeus and Alexander - 1 Timothy 1:19-20
The Many Young Widows - 1 Timothy 5:11-15
The Many Others - 1 Timothy 6:6-10; 17-21
Hymenaeus and Philetus - 2 Timothy 2:17-18
The Demons - James 2:19
The Apostates -Romans 1:19-32; Heb.6:4-9; 10:26-31; 2 Peter 2:20-22
Israel - Judges 2:11-13; Rom.11:17-24; 1 Cor.10:1-12; Heb.12:25; Jude 5
The Holy Angels - Gen.6:1-4; Job 38:4-7; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 6
Many Churches - Revelation 2:1 – 3:22