Can true Christians lose their salvation ?

[unred typo]

Potluck wrote: “I don't believe I passed some sort of Godly test ..."testing you, watching the results and the intents of your heart."
That sounds like I earned it somehow. And if I did earn it I can well assure you I was somewhere far removed from the front of the line.
I'll admit I've asked, "Why me?". I don't know and after 8 years I still can't answer that question.â€Â

I didn’t mean to imply that you were singled out for this testing. God is testing each and every person. Nor did I mean to say that you had received something other than what any person could acquire by simply accepting truth as they understand it; Believing God and acting upon that belief. God recognizes a fully surrendered heart and I believe that is the requirement for being born again. I could be wrong. I’m not God, and he may have other qualities of your heart’s repentance and faith that he feels are necessary. I do know that it is not by the will of man that a person is born again. You can’t decide to be born again, you can only decide to repent and follow Christ.

 

[jgredline]

Yes.....

Eze 18 states that if a righteous man sin's, and doesn't repent of his sin,...that is if he refuses to repent and return (obeying Torah), then he would lose his life.

Being righteous is not a one time "belief" statement. It is a continual "belief" statement. "Belief" being trusting that God will fulfill his promises to you if you fulfill (attempt to fulfill) the guidelines he gave. It's a lifelong practice.

Georges
This is true, for those who live on ''Your'' side of the Cross. For us who live on this side of the Cross, we are made righteous through the blood of Jesus, that was shed on the cross...

The bible clearly states that there is not one righteous, no not one.....so what does that tell you...?

 

[francisdesales]

Georges
This is true, for those who live on ''Your'' side of the Cross. For us who live on this side of the Cross, we are made righteous through the blood of Jesus, that was shed on the cross...

The bible clearly states that there is not one righteous, no not one.....so what does that tell you...?

The Bible clearly states MANY people are righteous...Here is an example:

"There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife [was] of the daughters of Aaron, and her name [was] Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless." Luke 1: 5-6

Since the Bible, ALL of it, is the Word of God, we KNOW that it cannot contradict. Thus, Paul is certainly not meaning that NO ONE is righteous in the same sense that Luke writes about Elizabeth and Zacharias. If you read the context of Romans (the Psalms that Paul draws on and the Judaizers that Paul is refering to), it should be clear that Romans 3 is telling Judaizers that JEWS were often God's worse "enemies", both to David and to Paul. Merely being Jewish didn't guarantee salvation. Not even circumcision guaranteed it - as Abraham was justified before becoming Jewish...

What does the Scriptures say? That no one can earn righteousness. But it certainly DOES NOT say that no one IS righteous... God can make whom He will righteous. He does it through the Spirit.

Regards

 

[jgredline]

The Bible clearly states MANY people are righteous...Here is an example:

"There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife [was] of the daughters of Aaron, and her name [was] Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless." Luke 1: 5-6

Francis...Yes you are correct. But lets go a little further... Why were they righteous? Where they righteous on there own or were they righteous through God...Why was Abraham righteous? Why was Lott righteous?
They were righteous because God imputed his righteosness upon them....
I suspect you already knew this based on the last part of your statement...

Since the Bible, ALL of it, is the Word of God, we KNOW that it cannot contradict. Thus, Paul is certainly not meaning that NO ONE is righteous in the same sense that Luke writes about Elizabeth and Zacharias. If you read the context of Romans (the Psalms that Paul draws on and the Judaizers that Paul is refering to), it should be clear that Romans 3 is telling Judaizers that JEWS were often God's worse "enemies", both to David and to Paul. Merely being Jewish didn't guarantee salvation. Not even circumcision guaranteed it - as Abraham was justified before becoming Jewish...

There is some truth in this...I really appreciate this statement you made.....''Since the Bible, ALL of it, is the Word of God, we KNOW that it cannot contradict''.....What Paul is saying here and bare with me as I am a little pressed for time....but as you know Romans chapter 1 through 7 is all about us being condemed by the Law....Paul in his opening statements in Romans is setting up for chapter 8....


Lets take a quick look here Romans 3:9-18
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written:
“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.â€Â
13 “Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceitâ€Â;
“The poison of asps is under their lipsâ€Â;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.â€Â
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.â€Â
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.â€Â

Now lets go look at this exchange that started a little earlier.....in verse 1


The Skeptik: If all you have said in Romans 2:17–29 (go back and read it) is true, then what is the advantage of being a Jew and what profit is there from circumcision?

3:2 PAUL: The Jews have had many special privileges. The most important is that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. The OT Scriptures were given to Jews to write and to preserve, but how have the people of Israel responded to this tremendous privilege? On the whole, they have demonstrated an appalling lack of faith.
The Skeptik: Well, granted that not all Jews have believed, but does this mean that God will go back on His promises? After all, He did choose Israel as His people and He made definite covenants with them. Can the unbelief of some cause God to break His word?

3:4 PAUL: Certainly not! Whenever there is a question whether God or man is right, always proceed on the basis that God is right and every man is a liar.
The Skeptik: If that’s the case, why does God condemn us? If our unrighteousness causes the righteousness of God to shine more gloriously, how can God visit us with wrath? (Paul is brilliant here that in quoting these words, he is using a typically human argument. Kinda like us....)

3:6 PAUL: Such an argument is unworthy of serious consideration. If there were any possibility of God’s being unrighteous, then how could He be fit to judge the world? Yet we all admit that He will judge the world.
The Skeptik: But if my sin brings glory to God, if my lie vindicates His truth, if He causes man’s wrath to praise Him, then how can He consistently find fault with me as a sinner?

PAUL: Let me interrupt to say that some people actually accuse us Christians of using this argument, but it is a slander.
The Skeptik: Why wouldn’t it be logical to say, “Let us do evil, that good may come�

PAUL: All I can say is that the condemnation of people who talk like that is well-deserved.
(Actually this last argument, stupid as it seems, is constantly leveled against the gospel of the grace of God. People say, “If you could be saved just by faith in Christ, then you could go out and live in sin. Since God’s grace superabounds over man’s sin, then the more you sin, the more His grace abounds.†Paul answers this objection in chapter 6.)

The Skeptik: Are you saying, then, that we Jews are better than those sinful Gentiles?

That leads up to and parallels the next question in Paul’s presentation. He has shown that the heathen are lost; the self-righteous moralists, whether Jews or Gentiles, are lost; the Jews are lost. Now he turns to the question: Are all men lost?

The answer is, “Yes, we have already charged that all people are under the power of sin.†This means that Jews are no different from Gentiles in this respect.

3:10 Francis, If you need further proof Paul says, that proof is found in the OT. First we see that sin has affected everyone born of human parents and then we see that sin has affected every part of a man.

Ps. 14:1, Tells us
1''The fool has said in his heart,“There is no God.â€Â
They are corrupt,
They have done abominable works,
There is none who does good.''
2 The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
3 They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one.

Back to Romans...
3:11 “There is no one who has a right understanding of God. There is no one who seeks after God†. If left to himself, fallen man would never seek God. It is only through the work of the Holy Spirit that anyone ever does.

3:12 “All have gone astray from God. All mankind has become corrupt. There is not one who lives a good life, no, not one†.

3:13 “Men’s throats are like an open tomb. Their speech has been consistently deceitful†(Ps. 5:99 For there is no faithfulness in their mouth;
Their inward part is destruction;
Their throat is an open tomb;
They flatter with their tongue.(Ps. 140:3Their conversation flows from poisonous lips).

3:14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and hatred†(Ps. 10:7 7 His mouth is full of cursing and deceit and oppression;
Under his tongue is trouble and iniquity.)

3:15 “Their feet are swift to carry them on missions of murderâ€Â

3:16 “They leave a trail of ruin and miseryâ€Â

3:17 “They have never known how to makepeace (Isa. 59:8The way of peace they have not known,
And there is no justice in their ways;
They have made themselves crooked paths;
Whoever takes that way shall not know peace).

3:18 “They have no respect for God†(Ps. 36:11 An oracle within my heart concerning the transgression of the wicked:
There is no fear of God before his eyes).

What does the Scriptures say? That no one can earn righteousness. But it certainly DOES NOT say that no one IS righteous... God can make whom He will righteous. He does it through the Spirit.

Regards

So again Francis, the scripture does say ''10 As it is written:
“There is none righteous, no, not one;...........

The ''only'' way we are made righteous is through Jesus Christ... We are clothed in his righteousness when he becomes our saviour...Since we are on this side of the Cross, God will no longer impute his righteousness on anyone, Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, He is the Light of the World, and nobody goes to the father but through Jesus....So if you live according to the Law, you are doomed....... since there is none who is righteous, no not one........

 

[Drew]

What Paul is saying here and bare with me as I am a little pressed for time...

Hey! No nudity here!

Sorry, jg could not resist - I have been nailed big-time on some amusing spelling errors of my own.

 

[jgredline]

Hey! No nudity here!

Sorry, jg could not resist - I have been nailed big-time on some amusing spelling errors of my own.

:-D :
Well, so have I and it won't be my last.....

 

[jgredline]

Yes, I agree. We are MADE righteous. Remember that. Thus, this agrees with Luke 1:5-6. God makes men righteous. He doesn't need to "pretend" we are righteous by some legal fiction that you call imputation of righteousness.

Regards

Francis
I will work on a rebutle as soon as I get the chance...
Let me ask you a Question though....Who was the book of Romans written to?
I will give you a hint. It was not written to the jews or non believers...If you understand that this book was written to believers (Christians) it will then begin to make sense....

As far as the early Saints go, I stand by what I said...Take Abraham for example... Why was he called a righteous man? If you say because of his faith, you would be right....It is because of his faith in God that God imputed ''his'' righteousness to Abraham....With out God, there is no man who is righteous no not one....On this side of the cross, there is still no one that is righteous, no not one...Only through Christ are we made righteous...More on this tomorrow.....

 

[Imagican]

Folks,

Read through the posts offered on this topic. Amazing. Pick and choose is what I see as the ONLY means for such misconception.

As one is ABLE to be 'born again', they are JUST as able to 'fall back'. We were given parable FROM Chirst HIMSELF that state this VERY THING.

TRUE Christian? Most don't even have a 'conception' of what this EVEN MEANS.

The parable of the 'seeds' that fell on 'different' kinds of foundation. The parable about the man 'cleaning his house'. These are ONLY a couple of examples of answer to this question of whether on is 'able' to 'loose' their salvation. JUST as a 'mass murderer' IS capable of receiving forgiveness, one could have lived a 'cherry life', accepting Christ from early man-hood and then THROW IT AWAY is OBVIOUSLY a posibility. To deny this is to 'think' that man is MUCH BIGGER than he 'actually' is. It's not a matter of 'doubting God's Word', it's MUCH MORE about 'accepting it'.

MEC

 

[jgredline]

Mec
I have been wondering when you would pop in...Now we need Mutz :

 

[mutzrein]

Did someone mention my name? :

Been home from work a little while and trying to catch a few quick glimpses :o at these threads.

True Christian lose their salvation?

Alright then - very briefly.

Firstly, I say a person cannot be a 'true Christian' and therefore have salvation unless they are born of the Spirit of God. However, while a person is 'saved' from a state of sin (and death) when they are born again, this does not equate to 'salvation'. Otherwise we would not be exhorted to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

And therefore (but not just because of that scripture) it is possible to lose our salvation.

And so, while we may lose our eternal reward with the Lord, the gift of life bestowed upon us when we received our spirit can never be taken away.

Now where is that hornets nest?

 

[JM]

Jer 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
Jer 32:41 Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.


Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


No, Christians can not lose their salvation.

 

[AVBunyan]

Can't happen

Mind if I join? This subject is dear to my heart.

This issue has been hammered more than any other issue on forums. The issue is not “can a saint lose salvation†– the real issue is, “How is the sinner justified before God.†Get that issue settled from scripture and the “losing it†becomes a non-issue.

I’ve come to realize the average saint does not know what really took place “behind the scenes†when Christ died at Calvary 2000 years ago. You know how I know this? I can prove it – just write out on a sheet of paper where nobody can see it and just see if you can. I bet it will be very short paragraph.

Also after viewing forums for over 4 years…
I’ve seen very few give a good presentation of what true scriptural justification is.
I’ve seen a lack of the use of the scriptural terms in posts that end in “tion†from Romans, Ephesians and Colossians.

Folks – justification is a miracle where God declares the sinner righteous based upon the merits of another, Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh. God shed his own blood (Acts 20:28) to clear your record forever. At the point of salvation you (if you are saved) were regenerated (Tit. 3:5), your soul was cut away from the flesh (Col. 2:11-13), sealed (Eph. 1:13), you died with Christ, you were buried with Christ, and you rose with Christ, you were literally put inside his body (Eph. Col.), and finally, you were raised with Christ to be seated with Christ in the heavenly places where, if you are saved, you are right his minute. There are more things that took place but time and space will not permit here.

You were justified by Christ’s faith Gal. 2:16 (the faith was not even yours so don’t go bragging about your great and enduring faith) and finally you live by Christ’s faith (Gal. 2:20). And to top if off the work God said he did he will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ (Phil 1:6).

And yet many of you here and on other forums still think you can undo all that Christ did! Do you know why you think this?
1. You are saved but still are weak on the doctrine of justification.
2. You are lost and still in your sins because you are trusting in your own efforts to keep yourself from “falling awayâ€Â. You cannot see nor understand spiritual things – I Cor. 2:14.

You better get it settled. It is either heaven or a lake of fire.

Instead of discussing if one can lose their salvation maybe you should be dicscussing what happens at salvation. Hey, sounds like a good idea!

 

[JM]

AV's the man. Thanks for the insight.

 

[jgredline]

Re: Can't happen

Mind if I join? This subject is dear to my heart.

This issue has been hammered more than any other issue on forums. The issue is not “can a saint lose salvation†– the real issue is, “How is the sinner justified before God.†Get that issue settled from scripture and the “losing it†becomes a non-issue.

I’ve come to realize the average saint does not know what really took place “behind the scenes†when Christ died at Calvary 2000 years ago. You know how I know this? I can prove it – just write out on a sheet of paper where nobody can see it and just see if you can. I bet it will be very short paragraph.

Also after viewing forums for over 4 years…
I’ve seen very few give a good presentation of what true scriptural justification is.
I’ve seen a lack of the use of the scriptural terms in posts that end in “tion†from Romans, Ephesians and Colossians.

Folks – justification is a miracle where God declares the sinner righteous based upon the merits of another, Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh. God shed his own blood (Acts 20:28) to clear your record forever. At the point of salvation you (if you are saved) were regenerated (Tit. 3:5), your soul was cut away from the flesh (Col. 2:11-13), sealed (Eph. 1:13), you died with Christ, you were buried with Christ, and you rose with Christ, you were literally put inside his body (Eph. Col.), and finally, you were raised with Christ to be seated with Christ in the heavenly places where, if you are saved, you are right his minute. There are more things that took place but time and space will not permit here.

You were justified by Christ’s faith Gal. 2:16 (the faith was not even yours so don’t go bragging about your great and enduring faith) and finally you live by Christ’s faith (Gal. 2:20). And to top if off the work God said he did he will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ (Phil 1:6).

And yet many of you here and on other forums still think you can undo all that Christ did! Do you know why you think this?
1. You are saved but still are weak on the doctrine of justification.
2. You are lost and still in your sins because you are trusting in your own efforts to keep yourself from “falling awayâ€Â. You cannot see nor understand spiritual things – I Cor. 2:14.

You better get it settled. It is either heaven or a lake of fire.

Instead of discussing if one can lose their salvation maybe you should be dicscussing what happens at salvation. Hey, sounds like a good idea!

AV AND JM
You are most welcome for joining in....and i could not agree with you more.....and having been saying much of the same thing in differant words..

I don't have alot of time this morning because I actually have to work today... : but lets take a look at 1 verse...
Romans 8:1....1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The Greek word for condemnation is the noun κατάκριμα The way the word is used here is in the same way that it was used in a Court Of Law..
It simply means that you were found ''Guilty and are now condemed..In other words it is a ''damnatory sentence''...If memory serves me right this word was only used three times in the NT....
I mention this verse because it fits in nicely with what AV and JM just posted...because the opposite of κατάκριμα / condemnation is ''justifictaion''
.....So what paul is saying to the ''saints'' (True Christians) is that you are innocent of the charges brought against you....Jesus paid the your dept of sin on the Cross and you are now blameless before God because you are clothed in Christ righteosness....

 

[AVBunyan]

1. Do I see here any mention of repentance? Do I hear confession of our sins? Does anyone proclaim Jesus as Lord? At least the thief did that much with his body nailed to a cross.

2. Do you want to be unfruitful? Do you know what happens to unfruitful fruit trees? They are good for nothing but to be cut down and cast into the fire.

1. I sought to post what God did not what man does - are you counting onyour repentance, your confessions, and your proclaimings?

2. I was discussing the issue is justification - not the results of justification. Some folks confuse results with justification and seek to make the results the basis for their justification. Get justification settled and the fruits will follow.

Don't assume something about someone's fruit or lack of it from posts on a forum.

 

[AVBunyan]

I asked a question to everyone who is counting on God‘s grace alone for salvation without works. Have you ever heard of a non working slave? My statement is a warning against OSAS doctrines that pervert the true gospel of Christ.

Sounds like you are really counting on you to not sin away or fall away - Are you proud of your good works?

 

[Drew]

Sounds like you are really counting on you to not sin away or fall away - Are you proud of your good works?

I have always found this kind of argument to be rather curious. To me, this kind of argument leverages off the belief that if man's salvation is any way contingent upon his (man's) actions, then this makes the whole process a work of man. I think this is rather obviously not true. In the all too familiar example of the drowning man and the thrown lifejacket, the salvation of the man in the water is really the result of the actions of the good samaritan on the shore, even though the victim did indeed perform a "work" to reach out for the lifejacket.

And I am aware of the arguments that this is a false analogy because the man in the water should really be seen as dead and unable to grasp the lifejacket. I think that argument is wrong too, but will only go down that road if necessary.

 

[jgredline]

Sounds like you are really counting on you to not sin away or fall away - Are you proud of your good works?

AV
This is exactly what he has been saying through these many pages and threads..

 

[AVBunyan]

AV This is exactly what he has been saying through these many pages and threads..

Amen - you can spot these types a mile off.

God bless

 

[AVBunyan]

I will be justified by God.?

Here is the difference between you and me. You are saying you will be justified - I am saying I am already justified.

BTW - I counted over 30 references to something you did in your post - ex. I, me, my, etc. Just count all of your "I's" alone.

Sounds like a lot of you in there mixed in with Christ. All of that you is what will guarantee your appointment at the great white throne.