Can we know God? If so, how?

[Hidden In Him]

To say that God needs to do sign gifts is to basically say His written word is not enough in my opinion.

Good morning, Elected.

But you acknowledge that He Himself considered His written word was not enough during New Testament times, yes? He said they were sent to confirm His word. The usual response is that we no longer need signs and wonders because it has already been confirmed, but evangelism still goes on today, so it is not just about those who already believe, it is also about those who have yet to believe, because scripture says the harvest is coming at the end of the age which is still ahead of us.

Speaking for Pentecostals, we're not doing it because we need signs and wonders to believe, we're doing it because we believe it is important to ministry, like I was pointing out in this thread last week (see last section on Page 2).

Thread 'Charismatic Bible Studies - 1 Peter 4:7-11'

Jan 3, 2025

Speaking As The Oracles Of God, The Responsibility Of Every Believer



Were the works of the Old Testament prophets just painting a picture from the past that we are no longer supposed to walk in, or should the great prophetic gifts of old still be in operation today? And is prophecy exclusively the domain of those who walk in the office of prophet, or was it a gift the entire church was called to walk in? Joel 2:28 suggests that the entire end-time church will continue to operate in them, and that from youngest to oldest they will all move in dreams, visions and...

• Hidden In Him
• Replies: 30
• Forum: Pentecostalism

• 

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Prayer, bible study, sermons, Theology, fellowship.

Someone might say direct revelation but that is not true.

Yeah, if God gives direct revelation like visions, they have to conform with God's written revelation in every way.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I have full assurance in God, He is so intimately active in His childrens lives.

Here is a very underrated verse.

Matthew 10:30 "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

Many do not understand what that verse implies.

Daily, I see how the Lord is in control of my life and how He orchestrates everything in life.

Am I His robot? Nope.

I just wanted to be clear on this.

I do not knock any of those of the Pentecostal/charismatic thought process.

I have known and been friends with many of them.

Apologies for the long post.

Grace and peace to you.

The rest of this post is very nice. Thank you.

I appreciate the forum the way it is now. I actually enjoy talking about things when it's peaceable, and you get to know people better, cuz there are always things to learn. I confessed to Arial earlier that there are things I still don't fully understand about Calvinism that I'd like to. It's just that the conversations I've seen in the past were often too divisive for me to stay interested. But I like this kinda stuff, and any discussion of the word and faith is helpful IMO when it's guided by the Holy Spirit.

Blessings,
- H

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

I agree with that summation, but my point was that we can still receive revelations from God.
The gifts of prophesy, and the gift of the interpretation of tongues, can both reveal things directly from God.

However, if those "gifts" come from another source, they will not follow Scriptural teachings. Satan can do such miracles too.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Yeah, if God gives direct revelation like visions, they have to conform with God's written revelation in every way.

Greetings, Bruce.

My position here would be more that they need to not conflict with God's word. Sometimes things come along that are not discussed in the word specifically, and then it becomes more a situation of the latter. We live in a world that's 2,000 years removed now after all, and things are in some ways much different.

But I do agree that whenever the word does address a subject, any revelation from God must be in agreement with the written word.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

The rest of this post is very nice. Thank you.

I appreciate the forum the way it is now. I actually enjoy talking about things when it's peaceable, and you get to know people better, cuz there are always things to learn. I confessed to Arial earlier that there are things I still don't fully understand about Calvinism that I'd like to. It's just that the conversations I've seen in the past were often too divisive for me to stay interested. But I like this kinda stuff, and any discussion of the word and faith is helpful IMO when it's guided by the Holy Spirit.

Blessings,
- H

You're very welcome!

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

God does not give direct revelation today.

There is no proof of this, we have His written word and that is direct enough.

I also believe that God elected all believers before creation and guides them to believe in him and follow him through life. However, when I was a pastor in a Canadian Christian Reformed Church, God gave me a prophetic vision for that church, and after I left for another church, it was fulfilled when they weren't expecting it. I think that if visions conform fully to the Bible's teachings, God includes them as a witness to his people in their need. I have not had visions before nor since then.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

I've shared this before but, every year on January 1, I make it a point to read or listen audibly to the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. A few years ago, while listening to the Bible I began to notice a repeating theme that seemed to jump out at me. It impacted me enough that I felt I needed to do a study.

I don't remember exactly the numbers involved but, using the NKJV Bible I searched for phrases where God describes who He is such as, I am the Lord, I am your Shield, I am your Savior, I am your Redeemer, I am God, and so forth. Of course, my search criteria was likely not exhaustive but, in the end, I found over 130 references like these in the Old Testament.

Then I searched for phrases where God declared His purpose along those lines such as, so you/they will know that I am God, so you/they will know that I am Lord, so you/they will know Me, and so forth. Again, I found somewhere around 135 references in the Old Testament and about 50 references in the New Testament. One of the things I find is the more I read the Bible, study the Bible, discuss what the Bible says, etc., the more I find that I realize and understand who God truly is and what it really means to know Him as Lord.

God wants us to know Him. Not just know of Him but to really know Him and to know Him means to recognize, understand, and accept the fact that He is Lord. I think too often people don't really understand what that title "Lord" really means or they put their own definition on it.

It means that He is Sovreign, Supreme, and has total power and authority over all of us. Too often I think we like to put God in our own little boxes and define His Lordship according to our definition and not the other way around as it truly is. This is often evidenced when I hear people use a phrase like, "Well, my god would or wouldn't do....blah, blah, blah." God is not just my god. He is THE GOD!

So, my answer to the question presented in this discussion is that a good place to start is to look to the Bible - read it, don't just skim it but really read it, study it, pray about it and listen with your heart for answers, open your mind and your heart to its teaching, discuss it with others, and so forth. Another place to find answers is in ourselves. Apply the teaching provided in Scripture, how to live, how to think, how to speak, what to believe, and in whom to put your trust and faith.

Scripture assures us that we can find Him when we search for Him.

From there you will seek the Lord your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deuteronomy 4:29 NKJV

You will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.
Jeremiah 29:13 NKJV

You give excellent perspective on the topic, WIP! Thank you! Yes, let's take God out of our personal boxes and let the full sweep of Scripture teach us that knowing him includes that he is also sovereign and just as our Creator-Judge!

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Greetings, Bruce.

My position here would be more that they need to not conflict with God's word. Sometimes things come along that are not discussed in the word specifically, and then it becomes more a situation of the latter. We live in a world that's 2,000 years removed now after all, and things are in some ways much different.

But I do agree that whenever the word does address a subject, any revelation from God must be in agreement with the written word.

That's a good point. However, the principles of God's Word apply to every area of life.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

We know God only one way and that is through his own self revelation. And when I say God here, I mean the triune God. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. So if we want to know him, it is in his word we must look, and the more we look, the more we will see.

That does not mean we should never read or study the works of men who have been appointed and equipped by God for the task, (as opposed to the self appointed) but everything they put forth must be checked in the scriptures to see whether what they are teaching about God is the same thing God has to say about it.

Amen!

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Good thing we have been enabled to crucify the flesh, with its vile affections and lusts...eh ? (Gal 5:24)

True! But that crucifixion in principle when we first believed has to work itself out in practice the rest of our lives. That why Paul gave many commands to his churches and to us in the last parts of his letters after presenting Jesus' work in principle through his death and resurrection in his letters' first parts.

 

[Hidden In Him]

That's a good point. However, the principles of God's Word apply to every area of life.

Yes, but now if I understand your point, so do dreams and visions. One of the things I've become more acutely aware of lately is that dreams and visions can correct our course. I've received a number of what I classify as "Warning Dreams," and they paint a picture of where things are headed if the enemy should manage to get ahold of a situation and twist it to his liking. Warning dreams when heeded cause us to take the necessary steps to see to it that the enemy CAN'T succeed in various ways because we see what is coming and move to prevent it from doing so before it ever takes place.

I've received a ton of these lately, I'd say no less that 20 in the last 2 months, but it's because I'm involved in something very intense where the enemy would love to get in the middle of it if he could.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Your supposition would make the gift of prophesy pointless.
I cannot agree with you.

The gift of prophecy given to the prophets was really the gift of preaching for the good of the people, not primarily a foretelling of future events. Read the prophets' books again. In parts of those messages, God gives occasional glimpses of the future for the good of his people.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Yes, but now if I understand your point, so do dreams and visions. One of the things I've become more acutely aware of lately is that dreams and visions can correct our course. I've received a number of what I classify as "Warning Dreams," and they paint a picture of where things are headed if the enemy should manage to get ahold of a situation and twist it to his liking. Warning dreams when heeded cause us to take the necessary steps to see to it that the enemy CAN'T succeed in various ways because we see what is coming and move to prevent it from doing so before it ever takes place.

I've received a ton of these lately, I'd say no less that 20 in the last 2 months, but it's because I'm involved in something very intense where the enemy would love to get in the middle of it if he could.

I understand. God gives us all different gifts according to our and other people's needs.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Great question!

Knowing God and knowing about Him are different things, right? It's the difference between being an owner of, say, a cat and having only read books about them. The latter person may know far more factually-speaking about cats in general than the former, but the former person, who lives daily with a cat as their pet, has a personal experience of the animal called a "cat" that the book-expert on cats doesn't. A book on cats cannot impart to you what it is to be scratched by an angry cat, what it actually feels like, first-hand, to be clawed by one. A book on cats can't give you the experience of a cat rubbing its face and hindquarters against your leg or face. A book on cats can't make you understand what it actually feels like to have your cat lying on your chest purring as you stroke its fur. And so on.

When it comes to God, many Christians think "knowing God" is mostly - if not entirely - an academic thing, it's the business of collecting data, facts, about God. They recoil from the idea of a direct, concrete, personal experience/knowledge of God, fearing that "subjectivizing" God must necessarily lead to the demonic chaos of hyper-charismaticism. It's safer, theologically, to maintain an objective, academic distance from God. Among these type of Christian, the higher the academic credentials of the individual believer, the more spiritually-mature they are held to be. Of course, there is a steady stream of examples of the faultiness of this thinking: Steve Lawson, Ravi Zacharias, Robert Morris, Tony Evans, Terren Dames, etc.

In between this academic/institutional "knowing God" and the craziness of the hyper-sensual "knowing God" crowd, there is what the Bible actually describes of "knowing God." It is more properly described as "life in the Spirit":

- conviction (John 16:8; Revelation 2-3)
- illumination (John 14:26; John 16:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10-16)
- strengthening (Romans 8:13; Philippians 2:13; Ephesians 3:16; 6:10, etc.)
- comfort (2 Corinthians 1:3-5)
- transformation (Romans 8:29; 2 Corinthians 3:18; Galatians 5:22-23)
- glorification (John 16:14)

It is the experience of the life and work of the Holy Spirit described above that is how the Spirit "bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God (Romans 8:16). In this "witness," the Christian person comes to know God experientially, they enjoy fellowship with Him.

2 Corinthians 13:14
14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

1 John 1:3
3 ...our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.

Revelation 3:20
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

See also: Psalm 23, Psalm 16:11; Psalm 36:7-9.

Sadly, horribly, what I have discovered in my work as a discipler of men in the Church is that they don't how to distinguish genuine life in the Spirit from their fleshly counterfeit of the same. And so, they are all going about trying to achieve by dint of their own will-power, intellect and physical strength what can only be accomplished by the Holy Spirit. As you can imagine, these men are frustrated, exhausted and have lives filled with secret sin.

Tenchi, all I can say to your post is amen and amen! You give us several great insights into the topic. Thank you!

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Knowing God is defined in scripture as an intimate relationship with Him, as a man and woman are one in intamacy.

Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”
Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?” Luke 1:30-34

So knowing Him is being joined to Him as one.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17


As we consecrate ourselves and set out to seek Him, we will grow in our sensitivity to His Presence; to His Voice.

Very true, JLB!

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

It is, after its rebirth from God's seed.
Our Gal 5:24 crucifixion occurs at our "immersion" into Christ and into His death.
Our rebirth occurs at our resurrection with Him, from His grave..."to walk in newness of life". (Rom 6:4)
Water baptism (in the name of Jesus Christ), accomplishes more than just remission of past sins.

Hopeful, for me, water baptism is just a God's sign of his faithful gift of the new birth and new life that he gives to believers, when they trust in Jesus, whether it happens in infancy or in adulthood. I have been baptized with water three times: when I was a Methodist baby, when I was immersed as part of the 12-year-old "herd" into church membership, and when I was 80 as a celebration of more than 6 decades of faith in Jesus. None of them saved me, but all of them testified to God's great, gracious love to me.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Can we know God? If so, how?​

To conceive of him is to make an idol. Herman Hoeksema – Reformed Dogmatics

Revelation consists in that God speaks concerning himself and imparts his knowledge in a form the creature can receive, in a creaturely measure. Behind and beyond the plane of revelation, there must always remain infinite depths of divine glories and perfections that we can never fathom. He is always greater than his revelation, that while he is revealed, he is still hid, and while he is known, he is still the incomprehensible.

Isaiah 40:25 “To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One”. Any definition or description of God that fails to take into account this incomparability of God would thereby destroy the very idea of God. What cannot be compared certainly cannot be defined. Nor is it possible to find the genus of such a definition in God himself. Herman Hoeksema – Reformed Dogmatics

Psalm 145:3 “Great is the Lord , and greatly to be praised, and his greatness is unsearchable.” Job 37:5 He does great things that we cannot comprehend. Psalm 139:6 says that God’s knowledge “is too wonderful for me; it is high; I cannot attain it.” Psalm 139:17–18 states that God’s thoughts are “more than the sand” in number. Psalm 147:5 declares that God’s “understanding is beyond measure.” Romans 11:33–34 “Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! ‘For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?’” 1 Corinthians 2: 11 The things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who comes from God, so that we may understand what has been freely given to us by God. God has revealed his mind (not the mind of other men) to us by his Spirit. Scripture is consistently optimistic about the Christians' ability to know God.

Only to an equal could God communicate the mystery of His Godhead; and to think of God as having an equal is to fall into an intellectual absurdity. A.W.Tozer

You're correct that we can only know God as far as the Scripture's revelation of him allows us to know him. Good quotes!

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Right. Knowing God directly and personally begins with knowing about Him. But such knowledge, academic and removed from its subject though it is, often remains the only way Christians "know God." And some streams of Christian thought encourage this relational distance, urging the Christian to believe that fellowship rather than mere relationship to God is "dangerous" and leads inevitably to hyper-charismatic craziness. But it is fellowship - intimate communion - that the Bible clearly and repeatedly states is what God wants with His children: 2 Corinthians 13:14, 1 John 1:3b, Revelation 3:20, Psalms 23, Psalms 16:11, Psalms 36:7-9, Luke 15:20-24, 2 Corinthians 6:18, etc.

Yes, knowing God includes both scriptural knowledge and personal knowledge. Enoch walked with God and went home.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

As has been pointed out, today the "voice" of the Good Shepherd "speaks" to his "sheep" from the pages of the Bible which the Holy Spirit "brings to remembrance" (John 14:26). Nowhere in Scripture, though, is there any instance I'm aware of where God speaks in a direct-to-mind way. There are biblical instances where it is assumed by some that God did this, but in all of these instances that I've read, it is not explicitly stated that He did, nor clearly implied. There are, however, many instances where God spoke to people externally and audibly. This was the case for young Samuel, for example, who mistook the voice he had heard for that of the priest, Eli (1 Samuel 3:1-10). Elijah, too, heard an external audible voice that he went to the mouth of the cave he was in to hear (1 Kings 19:9-13). Paul, also, and those with him on the road to Damascus, heard an external, disembodied voice (Acts 9:1-17). So, there are these scriptural instances (and a number of others) where it is clearly indicated that God spoke externally and audibly to various people but not a single instance in Scripture where it is explicitly indicated that He spoke within the minds of individuals.

What does it mean to be "led of the Spirit"? Does it mean that one is hearing an inner God-voice and obeying it? Primarily, it means to be consciously, explicitly under the authority, and thus, the direction of, the Holy Spirit. See the prayer of submission Christ prayed in Gethsemane (Luke 22:42).

There are, though, many Christians who, like the Pharisees, are obeying God's commands and thus appear to be under His authority, but whose hearts are far from Him (Matthew 15:7-9), and so, cannot be under His authority. Obedience to God's commands, then, is not necessarily proof-positive of being led of the Spirit.

No, the key to being led of the Spirit is to be consciously, explicitly submitted to the will and way of God throughout every day and from this position of humble yieldedness, "working out one's salvation with fear and trembling." See Romans 6:13, Romans 12:1, James 4:7, 1 Peter 5:6, Matthew 18:3-4. If one is not submitted to God and attempts to live the Christian life in this condition, they do so in rebellion to God and thus are cut-off from the Spirit's enabling power. All that is left to such a believer as a power source is their own fleshly, human power which, unsubmitted to God and thus uncontrolled by Him, only produces corruption and sin (Galatians 6:7-8; Romans 8:5-8).

When I retired from church ministry as a pastor, I thought that God wanted me to preach and teach here and there like a lot of retired preachers. However, one night I couldn't sleep when a very strong, specific thought came to me that I was to write a book about my relationship with two thirty-something skeptics, one of them named Joe Smith, and our adventure together. I shared that thought with other Christians, who encouraged me to pursue that calling. At the same time, God switched my "gears" from the preaching and teaching spiritual gifts to creativity in writing. He has confirmed that gift in many ways with 14 published books in the last 16 years since I retired and continues to give me ideas for more books. He is my Companion and Ruler and Father.