Can we know God? If so, how?

[Bruce.Leiter]

Well, this'll annoy a certain censor-eager moderator...

Why, Tenchi? Or are you being ironic?

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

You still do not know thier personal relationship with the Lord, if they really had one.



Did you have just knowledge and not a personal intimate relationship with the Lord?



I do not know Tenchi, you have claimed many times to be a Calvinist in the past, as many others have.

My experience with "ex" calvinists has shown me they really knew nothing about the doctrines of Grace.


Perhaps, it is obvious to you.

Some of your posts are confusing to me.

Grace and peace to you.

I think that we would do a lot better in evaluating any group by studying and understanding their beliefs instead of observing their behaviors. After all, no one's perfect, far from it.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

If we're sharing in a Spirit of kindness, Elected, this would be my problem with the theology in a nutshell. I know you guys tend to reject the term "Fatalism," but that's what this comes off as to me. There are tremendous things I have had to fight through to continue serving the Lord Jesus Christ and living for Him. If I adopted a "what will be, will be" attitude because things were all pre-planned anyway, I would be missing God's will for my life. Several times Paul would make mention of Satan opposing his movements, and seeking to silence him, but he refused to back down against what looked like "the will of God." Christianity is in part a war, and you have to put your armor on and fight against what the enemy is doing whether you get nine miles of resistance to it or not. And if I subscribed to the whole "It's all preplanned anyway" mentality, I would not be making the sacrifices I am making. Not even close.

Yes, rightly understood, Calvinism is not at all fatalism. After being a Calvinist since 1962, I hope that I can shed a little light on that subject.

Yes, Calvinists believe the Bible's truths that God has plans for every event in his creation, especially for his own true believers, whom he knew and chose before he created anything.

However, they also believe the Bible's great emphasis on the full human responsibility for all of humans' lives.

Mysteries surround such beliefs as to how he is related to human actions that we in our human weaknesses cannot fathom, but he is never responsible for evil in anyway. Neither can humans thwart his will.

Calvinists accept the mysteries about God in the Bible that other people try to reason their way through, but:
Isa 55:6 “Seek the LORD while he may be found; call upon him while he is near;
Isa 55:7 let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Here you have both human responsibility and mysterious, divine thoughts on display.

 

[electedbyHim]

Do you know what the fallacious form of argument called "Moving the Goalposts" is? You do it here. Your initial assertion was that I was assuming what I was saying about Calvinists. I have explained that this isn't so. Instead of acknowledging that you were wrong about my merely assuming what I was saying about Calvinists, however, you now resort to arguing that I can't know their "personal relationship with the Lord." Your doing this deflects from your false assertion and avoids having to admit that it was in error. This is both fallacious and slippery arguing that ought to be beneath a Christian because it is.



Yup. And it was very destructive spiritually that this was so.



Well, this is a convenient statement that many Calvinists, in my experience, like to make. It's actually a form of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. You seem very unaware of how often you employ fallacies in your posts. Anyway, it's a kind of ad hoc "purity statement" that relieves you of having to back down from your earlier mistaken remarks. Instead of doing so, you just insinuate that I wasn't a "real" Calvinist because your experience with other former Calvinists suggests that I likely don't know what the "doctrines of grace" (aka TULIP) are. This, too, is both fallacious and slippery reasoning and so ought not to have any place in Christian discourse.

You can believe as you like and have your opinions.

Your post is confusing to me.

Your suggestions of certain fallacies, backing down or moving the goal post is not the intention from my heart.

As you know, it is very difficult to debate over the internet. Many times words come across as what we want to hear but was not the true intention of the author.

I am certain you would agree that many people interpret the Bible that way.

Your thoughts and opinions on the Reformed are yours and no one can take that from you.

Please keep me in your prayers and I will be praying for you.

On a side note, I am not a Scotsman.
(that is ny really bad humor)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Good morning, Elected.

But you acknowledge that He Himself considered His written word was not enough during New Testament times, yes? He said they were sent to confirm His word. The usual response is that we no longer need signs and wonders because it has already been confirmed, but evangelism still goes on today, so it is not just about those who already believe, it is also about those who have yet to believe, because scripture says the harvest is coming at the end of the age which is still ahead of us.

Speaking for Pentecostals, we're not doing it because we need signs and wonders to believe, we're doing it because we believe it is important to ministry, like I was pointing out in this thread last week (see last section on Page 2).

Thread 'Charismatic Bible Studies - 1 Peter 4:7-11'

Jan 3, 2025

Speaking As The Oracles Of God, The Responsibility Of Every Believer



Were the works of the Old Testament prophets just painting a picture from the past that we are no longer supposed to walk in, or should the great prophetic gifts of old still be in operation today? And is prophecy exclusively the domain of those who walk in the office of prophet, or was it a gift the entire church was called to walk in? Joel 2:28 suggests that the entire end-time church will continue to operate in them, and that from youngest to oldest they will all move in dreams, visions and...

• Hidden In Him
• Replies: 30
• Forum: Pentecostalism

• 

Hi! I have observed abuses of the spectacular gifts, particularly the gift of tongues, that did not conform to biblical guidelines. For example, my mom and I were at a Bible camp with several charismatics. We were praying in a circle when a middle-aged gentleman burst out in a language that I didn't understand. The problem was that no one interpreted it for us, as Paul requires. Another one was a Pentecostal evening service we attended during which the sermon was drowned out by most of the attendees loudly speaking in unknown languages. I don't think that God wanted those uses of his gifts to prevent us from hearing the preacher.

 

[electedbyHim]

Good morning, Elected.

But you acknowledge that He Himself considered His written word was not enough during New Testament times, yes? He said they were sent to confirm His word. The usual response is that we no longer need signs and wonders because it has already been confirmed, but evangelism still goes on today, so it is not just about those who already believe, it is also about those who have yet to believe, because scripture says the harvest is coming at the end of the age which is still ahead of us.

Speaking for Pentecostals, we're not doing it because we need signs and wonders to believe, we're doing it because we believe it is important to ministry, like I was pointing out in this thread last week (see last section on Page 2).

Thread 'Charismatic Bible Studies - 1 Peter 4:7-11'

Jan 3, 2025

Speaking As The Oracles Of God, The Responsibility Of Every Believer



Were the works of the Old Testament prophets just painting a picture from the past that we are no longer supposed to walk in, or should the great prophetic gifts of old still be in operation today? And is prophecy exclusively the domain of those who walk in the office of prophet, or was it a gift the entire church was called to walk in? Joel 2:28 suggests that the entire end-time church will continue to operate in them, and that from youngest to oldest they will all move in dreams, visions and...

• Hidden In Him
• Replies: 30
• Forum: Pentecostalism

• 

But you acknowledge that He Himself considered His written word was not enough during New Testament times, yes? He said they were sent to confirm His word. The usual response is that we no longer need signs and wonders because it has already been confirmed, but evangelism still goes on today, so it is not just about those who already believe, it is also about those who have yet to believe, because scripture says the harvest is coming at the end of the age which is still ahead of us.

Yes, but is evangelism today a sign gift?

I see no where in Scripture about this, in fact much of the sign gifts were judgement upon unbelieving Jews.

How does that relate today.

Even Christ told us that many were false prophets doing these things.

Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Again, why is the written word of God preached, not enough?

My last thought is that if God is giving divine revelation today, what dont all His people know about it?

That goes for so-called miracles and raising the dead.

Hidden, we live in an age of mass technology, smartphones and cameras everywhere. I find it hard to believe non of these things are documented.

I would be a fool to say that God cannot do any of the sign gifts today.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[electedbyHim]

Good morning, Elected.

But you acknowledge that He Himself considered His written word was not enough during New Testament times, yes? He said they were sent to confirm His word. The usual response is that we no longer need signs and wonders because it has already been confirmed, but evangelism still goes on today, so it is not just about those who already believe, it is also about those who have yet to believe, because scripture says the harvest is coming at the end of the age which is still ahead of us.

Speaking for Pentecostals, we're not doing it because we need signs and wonders to believe, we're doing it because we believe it is important to ministry, like I was pointing out in this thread last week (see last section on Page 2).

Thread 'Charismatic Bible Studies - 1 Peter 4:7-11'

Jan 3, 2025

Speaking As The Oracles Of God, The Responsibility Of Every Believer



Were the works of the Old Testament prophets just painting a picture from the past that we are no longer supposed to walk in, or should the great prophetic gifts of old still be in operation today? And is prophecy exclusively the domain of those who walk in the office of prophet, or was it a gift the entire church was called to walk in? Joel 2:28 suggests that the entire end-time church will continue to operate in them, and that from youngest to oldest they will all move in dreams, visions and...

• Hidden In Him
• Replies: 30
• Forum: Pentecostalism

• 

I did read that article, when you posted it.

 

[Tenchi]

Your suggestions of certain fallacies, backing down or moving the goal post is not the intention from my heart.

I never spoke to the intention of your heart, only to the manner of your reasoning.

It is dangerous to be a poor thinker, but not immoral. And many who aren't aware of their fallacies of reasoning aren't so because they are wanting to be fallacious. Mostly, they've just never been taught how to reason well.

So, understand, please, that I'm not denigrating you as a person when pointing out poor reasoning, only the way in which you come to your conclusions and beliefs about things.

 

[electedbyHim]

I never spoke to the intention of your heart, only to the manner of your reasoning.

It is dangerous to be a poor thinker, but not immoral. And many who aren't aware of their fallacies of reasoning aren't so because they are wanting to be fallacious. Mostly, they've just never been taught how to reason well.

So, understand, please, that I'm not denigrating you as a person when pointing out poor reasoning, only the way in which you come to your conclusions and beliefs about things.

I understand what you are saying and not concerned about if your intentions are to belittle me.

Even if they were, I would take that as a blessing from the Lord and give Him thanks.

I may have poor reasoning in your eyes and that is fine, but I have been told the opposite from others.

As to being a poor thinker, well perhaps my brain has been rotted from past abuses of substance or this is just my thought process as God has given me at 57 years old.

The truth is, I have never had critical thinking skills in the past, as I do today.

Anyhow, thanks for sharing and keep me in your prayers.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Tenchi]

I may have poor reasoning in your eyes and that is fine, but I have been told the opposite from others

It's not just "in my eyes," as though good or bad reasoning is a matter of personal opinion. There are, as I already explained to you, very well-established, objectively-existing forms of bad - and good - reasoning to which we all are subject. We ignore those forms at our own peril.

Every person who wants to be a logically-careful, well-reasoned person, has to learn the same set of laws, rules and principles of good thinking. Myself included. At one time, I was a very poor thinker. This didn't make me a bad person, or less precious to God, but it did lead me to very bad conclusions about things - sometimes extremely important ones.

 

[Follower Of Christ]

In my case I have known ABOUT God ever since I was a little boy. I was water baptized in an Eastern Orthodox Church at the age of 12 by being fully immersed 3 times and I sincerely answered all the questions the priest asked me. I was very so called spiritual back then.

Then left my country for North America at age of 17, lived a life of sin for a while while dabbling on frontier edge secular debates of the quantitative discipline I choose to invest myself intellectually and emotionally.

One day I went to a library and picked a KJV bible. I could not put it down and read most of it.

Anyway, I thought it good at the time to convert to Catholicism but something stopped me at the end. Then I wanted to convert to the Philadelphia Church of God and again something stopped me at the end.

Long story short one day about two years ago, after reading again the NT God called me. I went down on my knees and cried heavily tears of repentance. I just knew to my core THEN that I had long been on the path away from God. I confessed to God that I had faith in the gospel of Christ. I knew to my core after that the Holy Spirit had been by my side all these years YET not in me.

Then one day after prayer I knew for certain the Holy Spirit indwelled in me. I now knew Christ was the way, the truth and the life. And I have never looked back ever since.

Well, prior to me being saved my wife and friends would confess I had a huge ego. I enjoyed being thrown in the middle of secular debates and reason my angle to death. I enjoyed spiraling ways of thinking based on modern theories backed by empirical work. I loved the secular world and was a slave to it.

It was a tormenting experience to let go of all that I had invested all these years in the secular world. I always knew about God and Satan was happy to just me intellectually know about Him but started tormenting me when he realized God had set a plan for me.

By the way I have a wife and two kids that I love immensely. Yet, my love for them pales in comparison to my love for God. God is more real to me than anything else before. I now stand on the rock of truth and everywhere around me is the secular world built by Satan yet my sole focus is Christ which is The Truth.

My apologies, I tried to keep this as short and concise as possible. I am very thankful for bumping into this forum last year and I have learned a lot in the process. By being here, there have been times I had to humble myself and be corrected by others that I am sure have the Holy Spirit indwelling in them. I have come to know God since the Holy Spirit indwells in me. And godly wisdom is not just knowing what to say but also when to not say certain things. For me, I have a lot to say about the time prior to my conversion ABOUT knowing God and the core of me now wants mostly to be in quiet adoration of His presence after I finally came to know Him.

So let me finish with the words of our Lord and Savior from John 10:27-30 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

 

[electedbyHim]

It's not just "in my eyes," as though good or bad reasoning is a matter of personal opinion. There are, as I already explained to you, very well-established, objectively-existing forms of bad - and good - reasoning to which we all are subject. We ignore those forms at our own peril.

Every person who wants to be a logically-careful, well-reasoned person, has to learn the same set of laws, rules and principles of good thinking. Myself included. At one time, I was a very poor thinker. This didn't make me a bad person, or less precious to God, but it did lead me to very bad conclusions about things - sometimes extremely important ones.

Fair enough.

 

[Free]

I think the biggest problem with dreams and visions is the possibility of reading into dreams something that isn't there. And that is the main issue with (supposed) revelations from God--they are highly subjective and may not be from God at all. Such claims are used by a number of false prophets and other charlatans for either material gain or perhaps to gain a following (likely for material gain). They might even think their visions, dreams, etc., are actually from God, but a lack of discernment keeps them from seeing the truth. And then it makes it possible for their followers, who often lack discernment or just want to have their ears tickled, to make big life decisions and risk losing a lot.

For instance, a couple of videos posted recently in these forums from so-called prophets are problematic. One "prophet," Brandon Biggs, who claims to have had prophecies come true, such as Trump's assassination attempt, is a charlatan who changes details in later videos to "prove" that he prophesied correctly. He did that in his Trump assassination attempt prophecy and gained a much larger following for it. But, he cost at least some people in his former church to lose a lot of money based on his "prophecies." And then he blames them! He's likely just reading the news and making predictions.

This is worth the watch:

The other "prophet" was showing all the prophecies he's made in last few years, including ones that have (seemingly) come true, but one--Trudeau being "removed" from power--could easily have been guessed based on how things were going. But, why would God need people to know that? Another of those prophecies was that Meghan Markle would leave Prince Harry. Really? Why would God need for people to know that? That is the "Christian" equivalent of fortune telling.

All that to point out that a serious lack of discernment in some Christian circles leads to many being led astray by supposed direct revelations from God, rather than sticking to the revelation already given in the Bible.

 

[Arial]

Do you know what the fallacious form of argument called "Moving the Goalposts" is? You do it here. Your initial assertion was that I was assuming what I was saying about Calvinists.

There is no moving the goal posts fallacy in any of electedbyHim post. I see in the responses an intentional or unintentional deflecting from understanding what is said. But if we take the "what I was saying about Calvinist" in the context of what you did say about them, you have presented a false equivalency fallacy. "This is my experience with the Calvinists I know, therefore all Calvinist and Calvinism are just as they were." Not to mention, it was observational and therefore based solely on your perceptions.

 

[JLB]

At one time, I was a very poor thinker. This didn't make me a bad person, or less precious to God, but it did lead me to very bad conclusions about things - sometimes extremely important ones.

Beautiful

 

[Hopeful 2]

However, if those "gifts" come from another source, they will not follow Scriptural teachings. Satan can do such miracles too.

I agree, so it is important to heed the warnings about the fruit of the prophet-interpreter. (Matt 7:15-20)

 

[Hopeful 2]

True! But that crucifixion in principle when we first believed has to work itself out in practice the rest of our lives. That why Paul gave many commands to his churches and to us in the last parts of his letters after presenting Jesus' work in principle through his death and resurrection in his letters' first parts.

Can you rephrase "in principle" for me ?
I do agree we have to keep the flesh dead, (Rom 8:13, Col 3:5), after we are baptized into Christ's death. (Rom 6:3)

 

[Hopeful 2]

The gift of prophecy given to the prophets was really the gift of preaching for the good of the people, not primarily a foretelling of future events.

It still is.
As to which usage is "primary", I won't judge.

Read the prophets' books again. In parts of those messages, God gives occasional glimpses of the future for the good of his people.

Yup.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hopeful, for me, water baptism is just a God's sign of his faithful gift of the new birth and new life that he gives to believers,

For me, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins not only provides for the atonement of my past sins, but also my entry into Christ; and into His death, burial, and resurrection; whereby my old man was killed with Him, buried with Him, and raised with Him to walk in newness of life.
That was my rebirth.
Without that baptism, there is no remission of sins or rebirth.

when they trust in Jesus, whether it happens in infancy or in adulthood. I have been baptized with water three times: when I was a Methodist baby, when I was immersed as part of the 12-year-old "herd" into church membership, and when I was 80 as a celebration of more than 6 decades of faith in Jesus.

Baby baptism is a waste of time, as babies have nothing to repent of, so no sins to remit.
Baptism at any age is worthless without a real, true, permanent, turn from sin.

None of them saved me, but all of them testified to God's great, gracious love to me.

Isn't remittance of sin important for salvation ?
Isn't rebirth important for salvation ?
Both are facilitated by water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I think the biggest problem with dreams and visions is the possibility of reading into dreams something that isn't there. And that is the main issue with (supposed) revelations from God--they are highly subjective and may not be from God at all.

Yes, I touch on that in the Bible Study that's featured right now. I acknowledge that's the case, but dreams and visions are in the same family with prophesy, and I believe 1 Thessalonians 5 applies where it says cast off the bad but keep the good, and do not forbid to prophesy. Though some teach that it has already been fulfilled (v.31 clearly suggests it has not), Joel 2:28 states that dreams, visions and prophecy will be staples of what the end-time church operates in, so I firmly believe it is something that needs to be taught and understood so that it can be operated in properly, not swept under the rug as something too dangerous and confusing to trust.

They might even think their visions, dreams, etc., are actually from God, but a lack of discernment keeps them from seeing the truth.

I've seen some of this actually. I've seen genuine prophets receive dreams and mention them, but actually be getting the interpretation wrong.

This is worth the watch:

The other "prophet" was showing all the prophecies he's made in last few years, including ones that have (seemingly) come true

It's two and half hours long, LoL. I can't say as I've heard of the subject of the video cuz I don't keep up with the stuff going on on YouTube (or in general really). I just do my own thing rather than worry about anyone else, so I'm always kinda out of the loop.

But I did check your source behind this video and he looks interesting. I started in real quick on a video he did on 1 Corinthians 13 in light of the Cessationist/ Continuist debate, and it's only an hour. That seems a more constructive use of my time, so maybe I'll create a thread and I can critique him for you after I've had a chance to go through. But he looks pretty decent. False prophets are a dime a dozen, so this other guy doesn't particularly concern me. There will be thousands more just like him between now and the end, and I think 1 Thessalonians 5 addresses that we can't let the enemy cause us to throw out the gifts completely because the darkness works to prostitute them. It's another reason why I hardly even pay attention. But glad you posted something by Mike Winger. There may be other stuff he teaches on that are more what I might find beneficial to watch in some way.

All that to point out that a serious lack of discernment in some Christian circles leads to many being led astray by supposed direct revelations from God, rather than sticking to the revelation already given in the Bible.

Yes it does, and I agree with you. My reply is simply that we have two directions to take, either forwards or backwards. Pursue and perfect the gifts amongst those who are truly His, so that errors and falsehoods are all the more exposed, or dismiss them and place them on the shelf. But IMO the latter leaves us wide open to spiritual attack. As most Cessationists readily admit, the powers and gifts or darkness have certainly not ceased, and if the church has no gifts to counter them then we are sitting ducks for a lot more deception that just the latest up and coming charlatan.

I'll try and start a thread soon and maybe tag you. I like your guy.