Can we know God? If so, how?

[Hidden In Him]

I'll try and start a thread soon and maybe tag you. I like your guy.

Yeah. He's good. I might (with might being the operative word there) be able to watch the first one you posted later - it's still really long - but while the subject matter would likely not impress me, the host does. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Yeah. He's good. I might (with might being the operative word there) be able to watch the first one you posted later - it's still really long - but while the subject matter would likely not impress me, the host does. Thanks for the heads up.

Free, Dave..., Arial, electedbyHim. Thought I would tag you all for a courteous discussion on one of the more famous passages related to the cessation/ continuation debate. It's in Theology, so everyone is free to respond as they wish. The OP is just a starting point.

Blessings in Christ,
- H

Thread 'A Cessationist Passage?'

Jan 17, 2025

Is 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 A Cessationist Passage?



In 1st Corinthians 13, Paul stated the following: "For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when that which is perfect comes, that which is in part will be set aside... for now we see through a glass darkly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know even as I have been known" (1 Corinthians 13:8-10, 12).

The Greek used here was βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι' ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον, which reads literally as "now we see through a glass in an...

• Hidden In Him
• Replies: 137
• Forum: Theology

• 

 

[Tenchi]

There is no moving the goal posts fallacy in any of @electedbyHim post.

Yes, there is. And I've already explained why I think this, so I won't do so again here.

But if we take the "what I was saying about Calvinist" in the context of what you did say about them, you have presented a false equivalency fallacy. "This is my experience with the Calvinists I know, therefore all Calvinist and Calvinism are just as they were."

What you've called a "false equivalency," here, is actually an over-generalization. In any case, I'm guilty of neither thing. In an attempt to accuse me of an overgeneralization about Calvinists, you've used a Strawman of what I wrote, subtly reworking my comments to say more than I did about Calvinists. At no point in this thread, have I written "all Calvinists are....". I have written "Calvinists" but never "all Calvinists," as you've asserted that I have. I've not made "all Calvinist" statements because I understand that Calvinism covers a spectrum of views, some holding to two points of TULIP, others, three, and some holding rigidly to all five. So, I don't typically speak universally about Calvinists, though I do about Calvinism, the soteriological perspective. And when I do write of Calvinists, it seems obvious to me that I'm writing from my own personal experience with them, though I don't explicitly state this. Of whom else could I write, after all, when I'm making comments about Calvinists? Certainly not Calvinists about whom I know nothing.

Not to mention, it was observational and therefore based solely on your perceptions.

See above.

 

[Free]

I've seen some of this actually. I've seen genuine prophets receive dreams and mention them, but actually be getting the interpretation wrong.

But, that's the thing--a true, genuine of prophet, since they are speaking on God's behalf, should never get anything wrong. To get something wrong is to prove that they are not speaking words God has given them to speak.

It's two and half hours long, LoL. I can't say as I've heard of the subject of the video cuz I don't keep up with the stuff going on on YouTube (or in general really). I just do my own thing rather than worry about anyone else, so I'm always kinda out of the loop.

The false prophet is right here: https://christianforums.net/threads/warning-please-pray-major-911-type-event.111633/

False prophets are a dime a dozen, so this other guy doesn't particularly concern me.

The irony is, Mike provides a video at the very end where Brandon says God warned him about false prophets, and then states how shocked he is by they number of false prophets on YouTube and that they are from Charismatic circles.

There will be thousands more just like him between now and the end, and I think 1 Thessalonians 5 addresses that we can't let the enemy cause us to throw out the gifts completely because the darkness works to prostitute them. It's another reason why I hardly even pay attention.

These are things, in my opinion, to which everyone needs to pay attention, especially in the Pentecostal/Charismatic circles, as they should be critiquing these guys and calling them out when they're false. Instead, it seems to be mostly non-Pentecostal, non-Charismatics calling them out. They should be named and called to repent and stop false prophesying, or else be cast out.

But glad you posted something by Mike Winger. There may be other stuff he teaches on that are more what I might find beneficial to watch in some way.

Mike Winger is solid. He and Gavin Ortlund are two of my favourites on social media to listen to.

I'll try and start a thread soon and maybe tag you. I like your guy.

 

[Hidden In Him]

But, that's the thing--a true, genuine of prophet, since they are speaking on God's behalf, should never get anything wrong. To get something wrong is to prove that they are not speaking words God has given them to speak.

It's a bit of a sticky wicket, though. That was a prophet attempting to interpret a dream, and not all prophets operate in that gift. A genuine prophet is one who speaks by divine utterance what the Lord has spoken; i.e. what he has heard the Lord speak to him "aubibly." I interpret dreams but I have never classified myself as a prophet. My office is teacher. Some prophets can interpret dreams, but it is what you might refer to as a "less sure word" of prophecy. It's what Paul was referring to as "seeing through a glass darkly," if you read the OP to my other thread, and dream interpretation is therefore nowhere near 100% accurate. According to Deuteronomy 18 and Numbers 12, if someone speaks what the Lord has not "aubidly" spoken (in parenthesis because it is sometimes heard in the inner man), and it does not come to pass, that is a false prophet, because he put words directly into the mouth of God that God did not speak. If a prophet misses on a dream interpretation, it's not nearly such a dire mistake, because dream interpretation is much like scripture interpretation. To say one is not a genuine apostle or evangelist or pastor unless they never missed on a single interpretation of scripture would be placing too high a restriction upon them, IMO.

The false prophet is right here: https://christianforums.net/threads/warning-please-pray-major-911-type-event.111633/

Well on the face of it he definitely looks scary. I have to confess I don't keep up, as I was saying. If he is indeed false and using deliberately deceptive means then I am glad he's being exposed.

The irony is, Mike provides a video at the very end where Brandon says God warned him about false prophets, and then states how shocked he is by they number of false prophets on YouTube and that they are from Charismatic circles.

I don't doubt it.

These are things, in my opinion, to which everyone needs to pay attention, especially in the Pentecostal/Charismatic circles, as they should be critiquing these guys and calling them out when they're false. Instead, it seems to be mostly non-Pentecostal, non-Charismatics calling them out. They should be named and called to repent and stop false prophesying, or else be cast out.

I think that's sort of an "us verses them" mentality, where no one wants to admit that our guys are getting it wrong. Probably comes from defensiveness. A long time ago I developed the habit of acknowledging the wrongs. I have serious problems with it myself, and actually came down very hard on a few of them. I think I did once on this forum and it's a tough read, but I was upset, LoL.

https://christianforums.net/threads/who-in-the-world-falls-for-this.100555/#post-1815640

But other Charismatics I've read from in the past have as well, such as Dr. Michael Brown (albeit more respectfully).

Mike Winger is solid. He and Gavin Ortlund are two of my favourites on social media to listen to.

I like him. Thanks again for posting something. I like good sound teaching, careful exegesis and well-researched rebutal.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

In my case I have known ABOUT God ever since I was a little boy. I was water baptized in an Eastern Orthodox Church at the age of 12 by being fully immersed 3 times and I sincerely answered all the questions the priest asked me. I was very so called spiritual back then.

Then left my country for North America at age of 17, lived a life of sin for a while while dabbling on frontier edge secular debates of the quantitative discipline I choose to invest myself intellectually and emotionally.

One day I went to a library and picked a KJV bible. I could not put it down and read most of it.

Anyway, I thought it good at the time to convert to Catholicism but something stopped me at the end. Then I wanted to convert to the Philadelphia Church of God and again something stopped me at the end.

Long story short one day about two years ago, after reading again the NT God called me. I went down on my knees and cried heavily tears of repentance. I just knew to my core THEN that I had long been on the path away from God. I confessed to God that I had faith in the gospel of Christ. I knew to my core after that the Holy Spirit had been by my side all these years YET not in me.

Then one day after prayer I knew for certain the Holy Spirit indwelled in me. I now knew Christ was the way, the truth and the life. And I have never looked back ever since.

Well, prior to me being saved my wife and friends would confess I had a huge ego. I enjoyed being thrown in the middle of secular debates and reason my angle to death. I enjoyed spiraling ways of thinking based on modern theories backed by empirical work. I loved the secular world and was a slave to it.

It was a tormenting experience to let go of all that I had invested all these years in the secular world. I always knew about God and Satan was happy to just me intellectually know about Him but started tormenting me when he realized God had set a plan for me.

By the way I have a wife and two kids that I love immensely. Yet, my love for them pales in comparison to my love for God. God is more real to me than anything else before. I now stand on the rock of truth and everywhere around me is the secular world built by Satan yet my sole focus is Christ which is The Truth.

My apologies, I tried to keep this as short and concise as possible. I am very thankful for bumping into this forum last year and I have learned a lot in the process. By being here, there have been times I had to humble myself and be corrected by others that I am sure have the Holy Spirit indwelling in them. I have come to know God since the Holy Spirit indwells in me. And godly wisdom is not just knowing what to say but also when to not say certain things. For me, I have a lot to say about the time prior to my conversion ABOUT knowing God and the core of me now wants mostly to be in quiet adoration of His presence after I finally came to know Him.

So let me finish with the words of our Lord and Savior from John 10:27-30 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

Thank you for sharing what God has done in your life, Follower of Christ! I too am one!

 

[live2blieve]

Can we know God? If so, how?​

Paul writes the following:

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse (Romans 1:19, 20).

The answer is "yes": we can know God's invisible principles by the physical examples.

Importantly, Paul also writes:

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! (Romans 10:14,15).

That is, to have true faith, or to know truth about God, one must hear the one who knows, who is sent, not just read the Bible. Why? When we read, we interpret what we read according to our own judgment (which seems right to us): hence so many contradictory denominations in Christianity. A preacher sent by God, on the other hand, arranges those same lines in the Bible in the only correct way so that we see the true picture. There is the revealed pattern in the Bible which is important for knowing God. I sincerely recommend to listen to this sermon:

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

For me, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins not only provides for the atonement of my past sins, but also my entry into Christ; and into His death, burial, and resurrection; whereby my old man was killed with Him, buried with Him, and raised with Him to walk in newness of life.
That was my rebirth.
Without that baptism, there is no remission of sins or rebirth.

Baby baptism is a waste of time, as babies have nothing to repent of, so no sins to remit.
Baptism at any age is worthless without a real, true, permanent, turn from sin.

Isn't remittance of sin important for salvation ?
Isn't rebirth important for salvation ?
Both are facilitated by water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.

So, do you still sin now, or do you get baptized in water every time you sin? I was christened as a Methodist infant, immersed when I followed the 12-year-old "herd" into church membership when I wasn't a believer, became a true believer at 16, and was immersed again 66 years later as a testimony to God's powerful, saving faithfulness all those years.

What happened to the criminal on the cross, who had no way to be baptized in water?

I believe that water baptism is the outward sign of God's great power in providing salvation, whether or not it's done for an infant or an adult. It doesn't save anyone but provides a witness by the child's parents or the adult about God's saving power.

My new birth didn't come at the same time as any of my three water baptisms.

 

[Hopeful 2]

So, do you still sin now, or do you get baptized in water every time you sin?

I don't sin now, to the glory of my Redeemer.
My repentance from sin is true.

I was christened as a Methodist infant, immersed when I followed the 12-year-old "herd" into church membership when I wasn't a believer, became a true believer at 16, and was immersed again 66 years later as a testimony to God's powerful, saving faithfulness all those years.

So, do you still sin now ?

What happened to the criminal on the cross, who had no way to be baptized in water?

That is right, but if you look at what he endured with Christ, it perfectly mirrors our own water baptism into Christ's death, burial, and resurrection in Romans 6.

I believe that water baptism is the outward sign of God's great power in providing salvation, whether or not it's done for an infant or an adult. It doesn't save anyone but provides a witness by the child's parents or the adult about God's saving power.

Got any scripture to show that ?

My new birth didn't come at the same time as any of my three water baptisms.

Mine did, when I was "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life", just as Romans 6:4 states.
Without baptism, I would still be the same old man. (Rom 6:6)

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Hopeful 2 said, So, do you still sin now ?

Yes, I do at 82 years old; they are inner sins, some of which God has given me victory over. For those, I pray maintenance prayers to avoid slipping back into them. Others I struggle in prayer with.

All of them are the desire to control others, escapism, frustration, impatience, impulsiveness, lust, pragmatism, pride, recklessness, and the failure to be constantly joyful and prayerful and thankful (Paul's commands in 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18). There are probably others that God's Word will awaken in me for me to pray about.

How do I pray? I claim Jesus' victory through his death and resurrection--that is, death to those old-nature sins and new life to corresponding new-nature qualities like influence, endurance, patience, self-control, love, wisdom, humility, caution, and constant joy, prayer, and thankfulness--to overcome the sins and put on the God-like characteristics. In Paul's letters, you can find these and many more spiritual needs we have.

I have Peter's words in Acts 2 about baptism:
Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

Peter says that God's promise of the Holy Spirit is for the adults and "for your children." Repentance is essential; then, comes baptism for adults. Now, what about the children? Water baptism for babies and other children is a sign of God's promise of the Holy Spirit following those children's repentance in the future.

Even with adults, faith usually comes first, then baptism, which is nothing more than God's welcome along with the congregation's celebration of the greatness of God's gift of salvation.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hopeful 2 said, So, do you still sin now ?

Yes, I do at 82 years old; they are inner sins, some of which God has given me victory over. For those, I pray maintenance prayers to avoid slipping back into them. Others I struggle in prayer with.

All of them are the desire to control others, escapism, frustration, impatience, impulsiveness, lust, pragmatism, pride, recklessness, and the failure to be constantly joyful and prayerful and thankful (Paul's commands in 1 Thessalonians 5:16-18). There are probably others that God's Word will awaken in me for me to pray about.

How do I pray? I claim Jesus' victory through his death and resurrection--that is, death to those old-nature sins and new life to corresponding new-nature qualities like influence, endurance, patience, self-control, love, wisdom, humility, caution, and constant joy, prayer, and thankfulness--to overcome the sins and put on the God-like characteristics. In Paul's letters, you can find these and many more spiritual needs we have.

I have Peter's words in Acts 2 about baptism:
Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

Peter says that God's promise of the Holy Spirit is for the adults and "for your children." Repentance is essential; then, comes baptism for adults. Now, what about the children? Water baptism for babies and other children is a sign of God's promise of the Holy Spirit following those children's repentance in the future.

Even with adults, faith usually comes first, then baptism, which is nothing more than God's welcome along with the congregation's celebration of the greatness of God's gift of salvation.

Are you starting a new thread ?
Are you looking for a response ?

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Are you starting a new thread ?
Are you looking for a response ?

If you want to respond, you may, but you don't have to. I was just answering your question.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Are you starting a new thread ?
Are you looking for a response ?

In that case, if you are still a servant of sin at 82, why haven't you repented of sin and become a non-sinner ?
God doesn't hear the prayers of sinners, as John 9:31 points out, so the only way God will hear your prayers is to repent of sin for good this time.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

In that case, if you are still a servant of sin at 82, why haven't you repented of sin and become a non-sinner ?
God doesn't hear the prayers of sinners, as John 9:31 points out, so the only way God will hear your prayers is to repent of sin for good this time.

I am not a servant of anyone or anything except the Triune God. When we believe, we stop being a slave or servant of sin and Satan and become adopted children of God. But we struggle against our sinful natures, the devil, and the sinful world. The struggle and warfare against evil in and outside of us is a sign that we're real Christians (Ephesians 6:10-20).

 

[Hopeful 2]

I am not a servant of anyone or anything except the Triune God.

That doesn't agree with Jesus' words in Matt 6:24..."No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other."
Jesus said that he who commits sin is the servant of sin, in John 8:34..."Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
You need to quit serving sin.

When we believe, we stop being a slave or servant of sin and Satan and become adopted children of God.

How come you are still committing sin then ?

But we struggle against our sinful natures, the devil, and the sinful world. The struggle and warfare against evil in and outside of us is a sign that we're real Christians (Ephesians 6:10-20).

"Our sinful nature" was destroyed with the old man, at our baptism into Christ and into His death. (Rom 6:6)
Those raised with Christ are new creatures, and the old stuff is gone. (2 Cor 5:17)
It is written..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
The old nature, is one of the old things that has passed away.

 

[KV-44-v1]

because I understand that Calvinism covers a spectrum of views, some holding to two points of TULIP, others, three, and some holding rigidly to all five. So, I don't typically speak universally about Calvinists, though I do about Calvinism,

Bonus points for acknowledging the distinction between ISM and IST(S)! :D

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Prayer, bible study, sermons, Theology, fellowship.

Someone might say direct revelation but that is not true.

I also will love him and I will reveal Myself to him. (Jn 14:21)

13 When the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak whatever He hears. He will also declare to you what is to come. 14 He will glorify Me, because He will take from what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 Everything the Father has is Mine. This is why I told you that He takes from what is Mine and will declare it to you. (Jn 16:13–15)

He who misseth out on direct revelation misseth out on the best part of eternal life... (Jn 17:3).

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

That doesn't agree with Jesus' words in Matt 6:24..."No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other."
Jesus said that he who commits sin is the servant of sin, in John 8:34..."Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
You need to quit serving sin.

How come you are still committing sin then ?

"Our sinful nature" was destroyed with the old man, at our baptism into Christ and into His death. (Rom 6:6)
Those raised with Christ are new creatures, and the old stuff is gone. (2 Cor 5:17)
It is written..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
The old nature, is one of the old things that has passed away.

You misunderstand my first sentence. I don't serve sin as if sin and Satan were my masters at all. However, sin still resides in my sinful nature, which is steadily being overcome by my true Master (actually Father), because I have become an adopted son of God, who has given me a new, resurrected nature through his new birth.

I am still sinful because of the old, sinful nature which Paul described in Romans:
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.
Rom 7:16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good.
Rom 7:17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.
Rom 7:19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Rom 7:21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,
Rom 7:23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

 

[Hopeful 2]

You misunderstand my first sentence. I don't serve sin as if sin and Satan were my masters at all. However, sin still resides in my sinful nature, which is steadily being overcome by my true Master (actually Father), because I have become an adopted son of God, who has given me a new, resurrected nature through his new birth.

I'll stick with Jesus' words on that.
He said that those who commit sin are the servants of sin. (John 8:34)
When will you decide to be reborn of God's seed ?
Those reborn of God's seed, don't have a sinful nature.

I am still sinful because of the old, sinful nature which Paul described in Romans:
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.
Rom 7:16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good.
Rom 7:17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.
Rom 7:19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Rom 7:21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,
Rom 7:23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Paul is writing about his past life while still in the flesh. (Rom 7:5)
His verse 23 plaint is answered in Rom 8:2, and his verse 24 plaint was answered in Rom 6:6.
The plaints are from his past, while trying unsuccessfully to live according to the Law.

 

[Corinth77777]

What does knowing God mean in the Bible? How can we grow in knowing God?

From what i read to " know" is intimate relationship, getting caught up in what HE IS DOING ON EARTH. And in the entangledment of being wrapped up in What He is doing you become like Him.