Can woman teach man in the church?

[destiny]

Something for consideration:

The apostle Paul at times would clarify that he was speaking not the Lord...and other times he would say not I but the Lord ...

example:
1 Cor. 7:10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

And then 2 verses later...

1 Cor 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

In other verses he uses "I Paul", also. I don't have time right now to go through the ones he makes a distinction on, but I think the distinction is in several verses having to do with woman in the church. It is very simple and always overlooked.

 

[Cornelius]

Let's back the dump truck up here just a minute. A question:

You don't believe that culture, history, and meaning influence the way things are taken into perception?

No, because the Bible is written by God who lives outside of time ,culture and history. His Word is His Word.

You never addressed my question about how God appointing women as prophets, judges, witnesses and workers in Christ washes with the Pastoral Epistles.

First, the New Testament is our covenant. It describes the church (not historical Israel) For instance, the church cannot kill, nor take revenge. Israel was under" an eye for and eye and a tooth for a tooth" The Bible does not contradict itself. We are the ones that must realize WHERE we are under WHICH covenant. Our church rulership is defined in the letters after the gospel writings.God never told us to make a "better picture" by searching history ,culture etc. He does however give us HIS reasons why.

God is against oppression of women. That is not what this is about and if you think it is, that would be a wrong assumption. Its about us, the church, reflecting the relationship between Jesus and the church. (Man (Jesus) and the Woman (church) ) We "act out" in this life a spiritual truth.......that Jesus is the head of the body of Christ )
Woman can witness, can pray in the church, can prophecy in the church and they can serve in the church.Woman cannot become a pastor and cannot rule OVER the church. (In fact man cannot rule like the gentiles rule either, they must serve, but that is another discussion )

If you can see why the church cannot rule over Jesus, then you will also see how that we as the church reflect this order, by following God's instructions.

give me the reason why there are specific examples before/during the time Jesus was living that support women taking an active (not silent) role in the ministry of the church.

I think it would be good, if you would rather give me specific scriptures that relates to woman ruling over the church. We can then discuss them, each individually.

For instance, woman being silent, obviously does not mean, that a woman cannot make a sound. That is ridiculous, because we are told that they pray and prophesy. Both are not silent issues.Both involve being vocal.

...................

I know a lady, who makes a point of absolutely ruling over men. One young man really told her, she was like a father to him ! She has placed this man into bondage to herself. She is also operating in a spirit where she does divination and she tells them its prophesy (She tells people how well they will do in exams, where your next house will be, etc ) She thinks men are too weak to lead the church, but she is ready to do so. She says the Lord told her she must prepare the Bride of Christ. She does not submit to anybody .......except the "voice in her ear". That voice has lately been telling her the Bible is not the Word of God. That Paul was spiritually immature, when he wrote his letters.
In short, she is way out wrong and in total rebellion against God and everybody who does not agree with her.She is moving in a Jezebel spirit and accuses everybody around her of that same spirit.

...............

I have also prayed for you. You know, the Lord is faithful and He WILL answer you
your brother
C

 

[Cornelius]

give me the reason why there are specific examples before/during the time Jesus was living that support women taking an active (not silent) role in the ministry of the church.

I just want to point out, that in a discussion such as this, we have to be careful about our choice of words. For instance, what you are saying here is not what the Bible say (yet a quick read might make one think that, that is indeed what the Bible says)

The Bible does not call non-active ministry "silent" (It only mentions silent once, in relation to behavior, that again relates to order )

So then, we must rephrase that question. You cannot place "silent" in there, because that causes the reader to think that , that scripture means, woman must not have ANY part in the church. That is obviously not true.Women are very much part of the church and its function.

C

 

[Gzuz the Man Child]

Hey everyone,
haven't been on in a long time, but thought I'd add one thing.

Titus talks about women teaching younger women, but that's pretty much it. Paul did specifically say, " LET a woman LEARN in quietness with all subjection. But I PERMIT NOT a woman TO TEACH, NOR to HAVE DOMINION OVER A MAN, but to BE IN QUIETNESS."

I'd say that's pretty clear.

Titus 2
3 Tell older women to live their lives in a way that shows they are dedicated to God. Tell them not to be gossips or addicted to alcohol, but to be examples of virtue.
4 In this way they will teach young women to show love to their husbands and children,
5 to use good judgment, and to be morally pure. Also, tell them to teach young women to be homemakers, to be kind, and to place themselves under their husbands’ authority. Then no one can speak evil of God’s word.

Are people really going to try to explain that away as if it DOESN'T say what it says?! It says what it says, DEAL WITH IT PEOPLE!

1 Corinthians 14:34 let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law.
Jesus said,
John 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey my commandments.
John 15:10 If you obey my commandments, you will live in my love.
John 15:14 You are my friends if you obey my commandments.
James 1:25 But he that looketh into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and so continueth, being not a hearer that forgetteth but a doer that worketh, this man shall be blessed in his doing.

Jeez.

 

[destiny]

It also comes down to men submitting to the headship of Jesus Christ. If a man wants to be submitted to for the sake of submission to his own authority, then he is out to steal the glory that belongs to God alone and isn't fit to guide. Rebellion begets rebellion, and Jezebel is a spirit that inhabits men moreso than woman in todays organized churches.

When Jesus is allowed to be head of His church, then natural order will usually follow from both men and woman. We, for the most part, probably won't ever realize how this has to work together.

Walk in most any church and see what disorder is usually rooted in. Pray for discernment.

 

[Ret]

Galatians 3:27-29

27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man,
there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants,
heirs according to promise. NASU

Illustration from Mt 25:1-11
...only the 5 virgins, and the bridegroom (ONE MAN) went in to the wedding...

Ret

 

[Entropic_Prodigy]

I agree that the New Testament is our covenant.

Acts 2:17 states, "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams."

Prophesy: Prophecy comes from the Greek word propheteia, which literally means "to speak forth". W.E. Vine says in his Dictionary of New Testament Words that a prophet is “a proclaimer of a divine message.... one to whom and through whom God speaks.†Why would God choose to speak through someone that had no authority, or wasn't allowed to teach the Word of God? Prophets throughout the bible were given the authority to correct and rebuke OTHERS in authority.

In the New Testament by itself, there are plenty of examples of women prophets/people who had the authority to speak God's Word. Philip by himself had four daughters who were prophetesses. Another quote from Acts (next verse, in fact), Acts 2:18: "And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy." The authority to speak and teach the Word of God is given to everyone, not just men. Moses even said, "Would God that all the Lord's people were prophets and that the Lord would put His Spirit upon them". He did, and we are all witnesses to that fact. Women were the first witnesses to the reserrection, in fact, BEFORE Jesus' own 12 male disciples. They were chosen to reveal the truth and the glory of our Lord TO them...what a slap in the face. If men were to exercise all the authority in the church, be leaders of the church, and the only ones priveleged enough to speak God's Word, why would Jesus start with the women and choose them to proclaim his risen glory?

Its about us, the church, reflecting the relationship between Jesus and the church. (Man (Jesus) and the Woman (church) ) We "act out" in this life a spiritual truth.......that Jesus is the head of the body of Christ )
Woman can witness, can pray in the church, can prophecy in the church and they can serve in the church.Woman cannot become a pastor and cannot rule OVER the church. (In fact man cannot rule like the gentiles rule either, they must serve, but that is another discussion )

WE ARE THE CHURCH -- and we are are allallowed to speak in it. Only the Lord has authority over it. The church isn't a structure, it's people - therefore, men can not rule over it or have authority over it either.

Also, here in this quote you specifically admit that women can witness and prophesy (be a prophet), but in an earlier post, you asked me what the fivefold gifts are, and to tell you who they were given to -- like women cannot be evangelists, prophets, pastors, teachers, or apostles....

Rom 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
Rom 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
Rom 16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
Rom 16:4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.
Rom 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
Rom 16:6 Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us.
Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

If women evangelists, prophets, "teachers" (he who has an ear let him hear), and apostles are all supported by the bible, why not pastors? Here, how about this: The word itself is derived from the Greek word poimēn which means shepherd. The Hebrew word is raʿah, which means sheep, or the spiritual feeding of sheep. So in essence, they may bring more sheep into the fold, speak the will of God to the sheep, teach the sheep about God, Become servants of God, but may not feed them? So who feeds the sheep? The Good Shepherd. The sheep-shepherd concept was replaced by official "titles" and a building where people are members in large, separate, denominations. If we, as a whole, are the church, what are we speaking or not speaking in? Who is the authority of us?

Something for consideration:

The apostle Paul at times would clarify that he was speaking not the Lord...and other times he would say not I but the Lord ...

example:
1 Cor. 7:10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

And then 2 verses later...

1 Cor 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

In other verses he uses "I Paul", also. I don't have time right now to go through the ones he makes a distinction on, but I think the distinction is in several verses having to do with woman in the church. It is very simple and always overlooked.

One thing, though -- Jesus never made a distinction, and he was here to be THE example.

 

[Cornelius]

I agree that the New Testament is our covenant.

Acts 2:17 states, "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams."

Prophesy: Prophecy comes from the Greek word propheteia, which literally means "to speak forth". W.E. Vine says in his Dictionary of New Testament Words that a prophet is “a proclaimer of a divine message.... one to whom and through whom God speaks.†Why would God choose to speak through someone that had no authority, or wasn't allowed to teach the Word of God? Prophets throughout the bible were given the authority to correct and rebuke OTHERS in authority.

I have already spoken about Acts 2:17. It is allowed.

But you are now also adding your opinion to what prophecy is and that is where you go off the track. I already said: Woman are allowed to prophesy and pray our loud in the church.

In the New Testament by itself, there are plenty of examples of women prophets/people who had the authority to speak God's Word. Philip by himself had four daughters who were prophetesses. Another quote from Acts (next verse, in fact), Acts 2:18: "And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy." The authority to speak and teach the Word of God is given to everyone, not just men. Moses even said, "Would God that all the Lord's people were prophets and that the Lord would put His Spirit upon them". He did, and we are all witnesses to that fact. Women were the first witnesses to the reserrection, in fact, BEFORE Jesus' own 12 male disciples. They were chosen to reveal the truth and the glory of our Lord TO them...what a slap in the face. If men were to exercise all the authority in the church, be leaders of the church, and the only ones priveleged enough to speak God's Word, why would Jesus start with the women and choose them to proclaim his risen glory?

I know all this, but this does not really address the topic of the thread. Can woman TEACH a man in church. (The Bible says "No" )Not everybody has been given the authority to teach.Not even every man has that authority.
If ALL must teach, this scripture is wrong

Jas 3:1 Be not many of you teachers, my brethren, knowing that we shall receive heavier judgment.

WE ARE THE CHURCH -- and we are are allallowed to speak in it. Only the Lord has authority over it. The church isn't a structure, it's people - therefore, men can not rule over it or have authority over it either.

So you say woman can have authority , but you say men cannot have authority.

In the New Testament by itself, there are plenty of examples of women prophets/people who had the authority to speak God's Word.

Also, here in this quote you specifically admit that women can witness and prophesy (be a prophet), but in an earlier post, you asked me what the fivefold gifts are, and to tell you who they were given to -- like women cannot be evangelists, prophets, pastors, teachers, or apostles....

Its because you are mixing up the office of Prophet, with the gift of prophecy. They are not the same thing. I teach at a group every week, but I am not one of the fivefold ministry Teachers. God has not ordained me as such, so I do not presume to take that position over His people.
In fact, we ALL can prophesy (exhort encourage and uplift, by using the Word.) but that does not make us part of the fivefold ministry. You will find the same confusion regarding speaking in tongues, because people also mix up two different things. We should read our Bibles with more care.

Rom 16:1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
Rom 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
Rom 16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:
Rom 16:4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.
Rom 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
Rom 16:6 Greet Mary, who bestowed much labour on us.
Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Yes, none of them were teaching.

If women evangelists, prophets, "teachers" (he who has an ear let him hear), and apostles are all supported by the bible, why not pastors? Here, how about this: The word itself is derived from the Greek word poimēn which means shepherd. The Hebrew word is raʿah, which means sheep, or the spiritual feeding of sheep. So in essence, they may bring more sheep into the fold, speak the will of God to the sheep, teach the sheep about God, Become servants of God, but may not feed them? So who feeds the sheep? The Good Shepherd. The sheep-shepherd concept was replaced by official "titles" and a building where people are members in large, separate, denominations. If we, as a whole, are the church, what are we speaking or not speaking in? Who is the authority of us?

There are no mention of women teachers in the Bible.

One thing, though -- Jesus never made a distinction, and he was here to be THE example.

Jesus is the Word of God, THAT is our example.

 

[Cornelius]

WE ARE THE CHURCH -- and we are are allallowed to speak in it. Only the Lord has authority over it. The church isn't a structure, it's people - therefore, men can not rule over it or have authority over it either.

Heb 13:24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit to them: for they watch in behalf of your souls, as they that shall give account; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief: for this were unprofitable for you.

Heb 13:7 Remember them that had the rule over you, men that spake unto you the word of God; and considering the issue of their life, imitate their faith.

1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and in teaching.

I am going to ask you this in love : Who is teaching you at this moment, because if you do not know the basics yet, then why are you forming such strong opinions? I mean this in all sincerity : You should be looking to change to another place of worship, because your current one is not teaching you. I do not want to offend you, but its important, because I am sure you know how important eternal life is and that you cannot entrust your life into the hands of men who do not know how to teach their flock.

C

 

[lovely]

1 Corinthians 11:1-5
1 Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ. 2 Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. 4 Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. 5 But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved.

I just wanted to mention this verse, maybe someone already posted it, but I thought it was applicable here. There are very heavy penalties for false prophets, so unless a woman genuinely has the gift she should be silent unless praying. And, if she is participating in either, to bring glory to God, she should be wearing a covering.

Secondly, I would like to point out that Christ submitted Himself to the Father, not because He has no value, but because His desire was to fulfill God's plan and glorify the Father. Women are not second class citizens in the church, they are equal in God's eyes...which means that God first honored the woman, not the world...but they have separate and distinct roles in the church and in the marriage, and in this world, just as Christ had a separate and distinct role in the plan of salvation for His people.

I had another point, but I have to go for now. The older women should be teaching these things to the younger women in order to hold up our Head through submission to God's plan. We need to start weeding out the false teachings. I agree that there have many men in the church who have misled, and some women, but the world is also a danger. The women in the church need to cling to the truth, especially the older, so that we can bring our daughters back to God's way. We should not participate in the false teachings that have been spread.

The Lord bless you all this morning.

 

[destiny]

Etropic, I don't want you to feel bludgeoned through the isolation of certain scriptures without giving you scripture that addresses this as a whole.

Compare these:

Heb 13:24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit to them: for they watch in behalf of your souls, as they that shall give account; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief: for this were unprofitable for you.

Heb 13:7 Remember them that had the rule over you, men that spake unto you the word of God; and considering the issue of their life, imitate their faith.

1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and in teaching.


Now look at these:

"But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate." (Revelation 2:6)

"Be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren .... Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant," (Matthew 23:8-11).

Take note that those who lead are servants to the body (matthew 23:8-11). They rule in the sense of governing the church in godly order, but they do not dominate us as the Nicolaitans did to their underlings. That is why God said in Rev. 2:6 that he HATES the PRACTICE of the Nicolaitans. There are to be no taskmasters!
Jesus is our example in servanthood so the elders must model Him in humility for the best interest of the body.

Example verse:

"The elders which are among you exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed. Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight [not dominate] thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock," (1Peter 5:1-3).

The Divinely anointed elder will both say and do, and thus be an example to the flock, whom the people will love and esteem very highly for his work's sake, and who in his heart will never desire to be lord over the heritage of his Master. Jesus' yoke is easy and His burdern is light, so we can know when we are under the lordship of man instead of God.

Read and study through the lens of the Holy Spirit as you allow all scripture to paint the WHOLE picture.

 

[Cornelius]

Etropic, I don't want you to feel bludgeoned through the isolation of certain scriptures without giving you scripture that addresses this as a whole.

Compare these:

Heb 13:24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit to them: for they watch in behalf of your souls, as they that shall give account; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief: for this were unprofitable for you.

Heb 13:7 Remember them that had the rule over you, men that spake unto you the word of God; and considering the issue of their life, imitate their faith.

1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and in teaching.


Now look at these:

"But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate." (Revelation 2:6)

"Be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren .... Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant," (Matthew 23:8-11).

Take note that those who lead are servants to the body (matthew 23:8-11). They rule in the sense of governing the church in godly order, but they do not dominate us as the Nicolaitans did to their underlings. That is why God said in Rev. 2:6 that he HATES the PRACTICE of the Nicolaitans. There are to be no taskmasters!
Jesus is our example in servanthood so the elders must model Him in humility for the best interest of the body.

Example verse:

"The elders which are among you exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed. Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight [not dominate] thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock," (1Peter 5:1-3).

The Divinely anointed elder will both say and do, and thus be an example to the flock, whom the people will love and esteem very highly for his work's sake, and who in his heart will never desire to be lord over the heritage of his Master. Jesus' yoke is easy and His burdern is light, so we can know when we are under the lordship of man instead of God.

Read and study through the lens of the Holy Spirit as you allow all scripture to paint the WHOLE picture.

Very good post. I really like this bit :

The Divinely anointed elder will both say and do, and thus be an example to the flock, whom the people will love and esteem very highly for his work's sake, and who in his heart will never desire to be lord over the heritage of his Master. Jesus' yoke is easy and His burdern is light, so we can know when we are under the lordship of man instead of God.

 

[Cornelius]

1 Corinthians 11:1-5
1 Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ. 2 Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. 4 Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. 5 But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved.

I just wanted to mention this verse, maybe someone already posted it, but I thought it was applicable here. There are very heavy penalties for false prophets, so unless a woman genuinely has the gift she should be silent unless praying. And, if she is participating in either, to bring glory to God, she should be wearing a covering.

Secondly, I would like to point out that Christ submitted Himself to the Father, not because He has no value, but because His desire was to fulfill God's plan and glorify the Father. Women are not second class citizens in the church, they are equal in God's eyes...which means that God first honored the woman, not the world...but they have separate and distinct roles in the church and in the marriage, and in this world, just as Christ had a separate and distinct role in the plan of salvation for His people.

I had another point, but I have to go for now. The older women should be teaching these things to the younger women in order to hold up our Head through submission to God's plan. We need to start weeding out the false teachings. I agree that there have many men in the church who have misled, and some women, but the world is also a danger. The women in the church need to cling to the truth, especially the older, so that we can bring our daughters back to God's way. We should not participate in the false teachings that have been spread.

The Lord bless you all this morning.

:amen

 

[destiny]

It is so very important not to isolate certain scripture and exclude the whole context.

On the subject of head coverings:
Paul is speaking of a "custom" in 1 Cor.3-11, not a command. This is made clear in verse 16 when he says, " But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God. (Paul exonerated the unwilling)

It is clear to me.. but If anyone feels to follow custom and wear a head covering they surely can, if not, we have no such (forced) "custom" nor the churches of God. Simplistic.

That's all I'll add on the topic of headcoverings. I personally think those verses in context speak for themselves.

 

[lovely]

Okay I had to do some things early this morning, but I wanted to finish my thoughts...

The other thing I was thinking about is the idea of God working through less than perfect models. God is so gracious with us. As believers, and a body, we all fail in specific areas, but God still uses us and blesses us, because of His goodness and mercy, not because of our perfect walk. But, our gifts serve the body best when they are practiced within the context of God’s Word. God’s plan is better than ours, and He can uses us more effectively when we are, in love, using our gifts in obedience to Him and with the goal to edify the body, but He will use us where we are too. Praise God!

If I have the gift of teaching, why is it ‘better’ if I am using it to exercise some sort of authority in the church? Could it be that I want credit, or power? Why is the evangelist, pastor, or elder position ‘worth’ more to me? Scripture teaches that a woman is not called to these specific positions in the church, so why do we feel individually that our ‘calling’ is beyond God’s own Word? God’s patterns never seem to fit in with the world’s idea of what works, and this is another example to me, because when He describes the church in Proverbs 31 he says that her price is far above rubies, and so is a virtuous woman, and yet He calls her to submit...and to even be silent. Yet, men and women alike feel that a woman with a meek and quiet spirit, who submits to her husband, and does not teach men...even if she has that gift...has some sort of ‘secondary’ role, rather than a role that is highly valued by God in the framework of His plan.

This desire that women have to elevate themselves, even at the price of obedience to God’s Word, is Nicolaitanism the way we define it. It’s the exalting of one’s self to rule over others to the point of dividing the body, and even use the Word to support this purpose. In Revelations the church at Ephesus was called to repent and do the first works, remembering their first Love, or else have their candle removed, but the one thing they had right was that they hated the works of the Nicolaitans like God did, as destiny pointed out. This desire to elevate one’s self is not limited to men, nor do I agree that it is mostly men. It’s at least equal. Are we not living in a generation where women rule over their husbands in most homes, wearing the pants, which has led to a usurping of all areas of the church where men are to be an authority?

When I consider the whole counsel of Scripture, the pattern is that women are to be ‘under’ headship of men (In Christ). Christ is the head of the church, the husband is the head of the wife, and God is the head of Christ. I would also add that I believe the men should be loving and serving sacrificially as Christ did. I am mentioning this to say that our obedience as women does not rely on the man’s obedience in this area, it is simply our responsibility to God, but through our obedience we could win them...encourage them to lead again. That being said, I do agree with destiny, if my elders began teaching, and living, things opposed to God’s way for both men and women in this area, then I would not follow them as they would not be imitators of Christ.

Concerning head covering, this 1 Corinthians passage speaks to the woman being made for the man, coming out of the man, thus needing ‘power’ on her head for the sake of the angels and to bring glory to God. The verse about contention says to me that the church has no custom of being contentious over this issue, because it should be obvious to believers that it should be followed. This is the whole context as I see it...all verses supporting the same idea of wearing covering. Paul was very clear in saying that if a woman prays or prophecies with her head uncovered she brings shame to head (certainly to herself, but in the context maybe even to her husband (her head) her church body, and to Christ (her Head)). The whole point is either glorify God by wearing a covering, or shame yourself (and possibly others) before Him. A sister is to have ‘power’ over her head before the Lord’s assembly, and Paul takes us to nature to show us how basic this truth is (How God has a prinicpal before us), and he likens it to the brashness and immodesty of those who have shaved their heads. (I think that this act was of prostitutes, but I would have to recheck that to be sure.) In the same manner, men are to uncover their heads, (not take their hair off, signifying that we are a talking about a covering) and that is why we see men removing their hats when praying...even at baseball games! Anyway, I disagree with the false teaching that has been perpetuated by men that this is some sort of custom that we can ignore, or consider optional. It is God’s Word, not custom. The custom is that of a church that will not be contentious concerning God's Word. Anyway, It took me a long time before I could receive this teaching, and so I do not judge others, but I would ask all of my sisters to study this again and again to be sure that they are in obedience to God and bringing all glory to Him. Maybe one day we should study it in the Bible study area together.

I will leave you all in peace with this last post, because I do not want to edge toward vain disputes. The Lord bless you all.

 

[Spiffy]

The organizaton of authority was set-up by God with Adam and Eve and still applies today (which also applies to church). He set it up to look like this:

God
Man
Woman
Satan

Eve, by her sin, made it look like this:

Satan
Woman
Man
God

We continously try to disorganize what God has already organized.

Lovely, your posts says what I was saying in my post, but will post it anyway (we were writing at the same time

 

[Ret]

It is so very important not to isolate certain scripture and exclude the whole context.

On the subject of head coverings:
Paul is speaking of a "custom" in 1 Cor.3-11, not a command. This is made clear in verse 16 when he says, " But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God. (Paul exonerated the unwilling)

It is clear to me.. but If anyone feels to follow custom and wear a head covering they surely can, if not, we have no such (forced) "custom" nor the churches of God. Simplistic.

That's all I'll add on the topic of headcoverings. I personally think those verses in context speak for themselves.

Then add in v15 as well...
1 Cor 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her:
for her hair is given her for a covering. KJV
Ret

 

[Cornelius]

Then add in v15 as well...
1 Cor 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her:
for her hair is given her for a covering. KJV
Ret

Correct:

1Co 11:5 But every woman praying or prophesying with her head unveiled dishonoreth her head; for it is one and the same thing as if she were shaven.
1Co 11:6 For if a woman is not veiled, let her also be shorn: but if it is a shame to a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be veiled.
So clearly not covered, is seen in the same bad light as shaven clean. Paul is saying, if she refuses a veil, then cut off her hair. But this would be a shame, so to prevent this: .......let her be veiled.

See? Two things are mentioned: The real hair AND the veil.

 

[Ret]

See? Two things are mentioned: The real hair AND the veil.

2 Cor 3:15,16
15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;
16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. NASU

 

[Cornelius]

See? Two things are mentioned: The real hair AND the veil.

2 Cor 3:15,16
15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;
16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. NASU

Yes that is true, but it is a different veil .

That is talking about the "veil" that covers our spiritual eyes (heart) when the Law is read . Jesus removes the veil from our HEARTS (not head)