Can Women Be Pastors & Preachers ?

[handy]

But is it "dancing around" 1 Timothy 2:11-15 to say that the context is clearly within marriage, not within the church.

If we say that the context of this is within the church and not marriage, then passage becomes problematic, especially verse 15.

 

[jasoncran]

So why do you need violence and physical strength to be a leader? You are not a wolf that isn't how disputes of the sort a pastor would encounter are settled these days.

How do you know of your gods designs if not through your religious texts?
Surely by making this claim without any evidence your denying yourself of what those indivduals could contribute If they are able should they not be allowed to do so by there merit and not entitled by there birth?

i dont. i train with woman in bjj tha tis a sport, and please

i have a female pastor friend that i respect.

i was referring to equality that some want. if they want i will oblidge, that is what i meant.

men are men.

should men carry child?
women are women.

 

[Nick]

Just wanted to add that our church has a full-time paid women's pastor. I have no problems with that, becasue when she does get up and preach it is only to women and children.

 

[coffeeelover]

i love it when people assume that i am chauvinistic
no if women want equality, then i will let them have it. wrestle me and i will use my full weight with technique to tap you, tap me good for you.

but girl dont cry if you get bruised in the process or when i tap you by sheer weight difference.

You sound Chauvinistic. Women have been been getting better grades, and graduating with advanced degrees at higher rates than men for over a decade now. War is now fought mostly with technology and brain power. You are obsolete.

 

[Dusty]

For reading only : An interesting viewpoint :

by Pastor Keith A. Smith​

1. There is not one Scripture in the Bible that forbids women from preaching, but on the contrary, there are many verses that encourage both men and women to preach the Gospel.​

2. The Bible teaches that God is not a respecter of persons, and He will use any and all who will yield to Him, regardless of race, age, or sex.​

Galatians 3:28 - "...neither male nor female...for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."​

Acts 10:34 - "...God is no respecter of persons...."​

Moses said in Numbers 11:29, "Would God that all the Lord's people were prophets, and that the Lord would put His spirit upon them!"​

The crying need of the hour is for more laborers. It is a trick of the enemy to try to down rate thousands of our faithful laborers just because they were born females.​

3. The Great Commission, Mark 16:15, "Preach the Gospel," is to ALL believers, and to all the church of Jesus Christ. The command to "preach the Gospel" is to both male and female.​

4. It is an undeniable fact that God has called and anointed thousands of women to preach the Gospel. The Full Gospel organizations have hundreds of licensed and ordained women who are preaching, teaching, evangelizing, pastoring, and doing mission work with the signs following their ministry. God is using them for the salvation of the lost, deliverance from sin, gifts of the Spirit, and infilling of the Holy Spirit.​

The Bible says, "Touch not mine anointed and do my prophets no harm." And may we be reminded of the Scripture in Acts 5:39, "If it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God."​

When someone says, "God does not call women to preach," it is like saying that God does not baptize with the Holy Spirit today. We know better, because we have witnessed and experienced it with our own ears and eyes.​

I would be afraid to condemn women preachers, lest I would be found to be fighting against God, and to be committing the vile sin of attributing the works of the Holy Spirit to the devil.​

5. Women preachers are a fulfillment of Bible Prophecy and another sign of Christ's soon return to earth (Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17-18).​

6. The Bible declares that women will prophesy: 1 Cor. 11:5, "For every woman that prayeth or prophesieth...."​

Both the Hebrew (Nebrah), and Greek (Proph) used for prophetess means (female preacher). (See Young's Concordance, Pg. 780.)​

The word "Prophet" means a public expounder.​

The word "Prophesy" means to speak forth, or flow forth. The Bible says in 1 Cor. 14:3, "But he that prophesieth speaketh unto MEN to edification, and exhortation and comfort."​

The dictionary says, prophesy is "to speak under divine inspiration...to preach."​

Therefore we learn from the original translation, from the Bible interpretation, and from the dictionary, that to prophesy means more than to tell the future, but it is to speak publicly about the past, present, or future. It is to preach under the anointing of the Holy Spirit.​

The Old and New Testament prophets and prophetesses were preachers of God's Word.​

Even if the words prophet and preacher could be separated, how could anyone prophesy to bring exhortation, comfort and edification to the church, if she were forbidden to speak in church and was to keep silent?​

Would God inspire and anoint someone to do something that was wrong and sinful???​

* (There is a difference between a prophet, and the gift of prophecy.)​

7. God called and used women preachers in the Old Testament.​

a. DEBORAH - Judges 4:4-5. Deborah was a Judge for both civil and criminal cases. The children of Israel came to her for judgment. She was the chief ruler of Israel for 40 years, giving orders to the Generals and all the army. She did the work of an evangelist, prophetess, Judge, and a preacher. God gave her authority over the mighty (Judges 5:13).​

b. MIRIAM - Exodus 15:20; Numbers 12:1; Micah 6:4. She was a Prophetess and a Song Leader in Israel.​

c. HULDAH - 2 Kings 22:14. Five men went to Sister Huldah and communed with her. She spoke to a congregation of men concerning the book of the Law. A female preached to a man's congregation, and her message was taken to the nation and produced a revival.​

d. MAHER-SHALAL-HASH-BAZ'S MOTHER - Isaiah 8:3. She was a prophetess.​

8. God called and used women preachers in the New Testament.​

a. The first message of the Resurrection of Christ was spoken by women to a group of men.​

b. Anna - Luke 2:36-38. She must have prophesied in church, because she did not depart from the temple.​

c. Phillip had 4 daughters who prophesied. Acts 21:9.​

d. Priscilla assisted Paul in his revival meeting and even taught Apollos in the way of the Lord more perfectly.​

e. Phebe - Romans 16:1-2. Paul commended Phebe to the Church at Rome and requested that they assist her in her business. She was one of Paul's assistants in the work of the Lord and delivered the Book of Romans to the people from the hand of Paul.​

9. There is no sound reason why a woman or man should not preach the Gospel. There is a desperate need in the church for more workers. Laborers are few, and God will use any and all who will go for Him. Some say God will not use a woman to preach, because "The woman was deceived," but remember Romans 5:12: "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world." It seems to indicate that Adam was just as guilty as Eve in the fall of man. If anyone should be kept from preaching because of sin, it would be Adam. But God does not forbid anyone from preaching, because of Adam's or Eve's sin.​

10. 1 Cor. 14: 34-35 does not say anything about women preachers. If Paul intended this verse as a general rule to bar all women from speaking in church, then they cannot teach Sunday School, testify, pray, prophesy, sing, or even get saved, and this would contradict the rest of the Bible (Acts 2:4; Acts 2:16-18).​

 

[Dusty]

Continued :

Paul was rather dealing with a particular problem in the church. Women were not educated as were the men in that day; therefore the women would talk back and forth to their husbands in church and ask questions concerning the sermon. Paul said, "If they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home; for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." If they want to talk things over let them wait until they get home. This rule is still good for the church today, where people are talking and causing confusion in the church service. They should not speak in church. (Not in the back of the church either before or after services.)​

If a woman cannot speak in church, then she cannot speak in prayer meeting, young people's service, etc., for who can deny that Sunday School and Prayer meeting, and Youth work are parts of church? Christ's Church is not a building, but rather it is found where two or three are gathered together in His name, whether at a street meeting, in a tent, a home, church, classroom or anywhere else.​

11. 1 Timothy 2:12 is not a blanket rule for all women of all churches. If it were, then the women could not speak at all, for the same verse that tells them not to teach also tells them to be silent.​

If all women had to keep silent in church, then that would be promoting disobedience to God, for they could not prophesy, pray, testify, sing, exhort, do personal work, or even get saved.​

Whenever an interpretation to a verse contradicts the rest of the teaching of the Bible, we know this interpretation is incorrect, for the Holy Spirit will never contradict His own Word.​

a s
This is the chief verse that is used to oppose women preaching and yet it says nothing about preaching, nor does it say anything about a public worship or church service. But, on the contrary, this verse is giving instructions to wives as to how they were to conduct themselves in regard to their husband. Paul says in 1 Cor. 14:35, "And if they will LEARN anything, let them ask their husbands at home." Now he states in 1 Tim. 2:12 that the woman should learn in silence, and should not usurp authority over the man. Paul is dealing with more of a home problem than a church problem.​

This verse still applies to us today. It is wrong for a woman to usurp authority over her husband (in church, home, or any place else) as was the case in Paul's day. She should not try to teach him or speak words that would cause discord and confusion, but should rather be silent and in subjection to her husband.​

It is also to be understood that if anyone, whether man or woman, is usurping authority over the God-given leadership of the church, she or he is to be silent, and not to teach, or act in such a way that would create discord in the assembly.​

12. Some have used Titus 1:6-7, "If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children...", but there is a difference between a preacher and a bishop. For I was an Evangelist and now am a Pastor, but I am not a Bishop (Overseer), and most Pastors are not.​

If God called ingle man with no children to be a Bishop, as Paul was, surely this verse is not opposed to it, nor would this scripture oppose a woman Bishop if she was called of God for the work, as was Deborah.​

​

​

What this verse does teach is that a person who is to be a Bishop must not have two living companions, either husbands or wives.​

The Bible often speaks of "man" when it refers to both men and and women inclusively. The word "mankind" also includes both men and women. For an example of this word usage see 1 Cor. 13:1 - "Though I speak with the tongues of MEN and angels...." This word "MEN" includes women as well, for we do not have one language for men and another for women.​

13. To condemn women preachers and women church workers is a serious offense, because God has stamped His approval on them by His Spirit over and over again, and who is man to fight against the Spirit of God?​

To condemn women preachers and women church workers is in a sense to claim they are doing wrong and committing sin...and all those who support them and listen to them are having a part in that sin.​

For anyone to do this, he must condemn approximately 99% of all the Spirit-filled believers and the vast majority of all of Christianity.​

"Of a truth, I perceive that God is no respecter of persons..." (Acts 10:34).​

[/QUOTE]

 

[Lewis]

Dusty thank you for that pastor Kieth A Smith post, the thing is even though some of these people see the proof you just laid out, they still will be a stiff necked people and not take heed to it, but the good thing is if it be of God they cannot over throw it. So says the Bible.

 

[jasoncran]

You sound Chauvinistic. Women have been been getting better grades, and graduating with advanced degrees at higher rates than men for over a decade now. War is now fought mostly with technology and brain power. You are obsolete.

i beg to differ, as i debated with mr. old tractor one thing.

infantry works! and also with all this flying crap we have and the multi -million sights that we use, when they fail ( and they do) the old tech is the best. crap breaks gps fails,

answer me this. why did i have to resupply men with donkeys and other used them on patrols to carry heavy stuff through trails.

infantry isnt obsolete, women aren't in infantry. if you have served you have known that. funny on fb i am talking to a canadian air force enlisted avionics tech. and she says if they want to serve hold them to men's standard. i told her that women have paid for the doing that to themselves with back problems and joint problems. yup she agreed! she has had a hip replacement and knee replacement.

and she's my age! my wife worked in mens job and also has paid for that. docs tell her they only see men with these injuries.

i am adressing heavy labor jobs not office jobs. or pilots. infantry guys are generally not the brightest, dont have to be, point and shoot.

 

[Dusty]

Dusty thank you for that pastor Kieth A Smith post, the thing is even though some of these people see the proof you just laid out, they still will be a stiff necked people and not take heed to it, but the good thing is if it be of God they cannot over throw it. So says the Bible.

Hi Lewis .... That is so true . I am also speaking from the fact that my Senior Pastor is a woman and I believe if women are called and are annointed as well as men that we are in the last days where God is pouring our His spirit upon" ALL " flesh and He desires that many come into the Kingdom . Women and men are being instruments of God's power and bringing sinners into His saving grace.

I for one cannot ever discredit this fact. I see in my own church the moving of the Holy Spirit.

 

[jasoncran]

is prophecy the same as preaching and or pastors or the deacon

the bible doesnt allow women to be bishops

if you doubt read the verse the qualifications of a bishop in the book of titus.

 

[handy]

I do think that the bible is pretty clear that elders (bishops) and overseers of the church should be men, but as for preaching and teaching, even holding the role of pastor (which in some churches is not the only authoritarian role there is) I ask again....

Doesn't the context of 1 Timothy 2 speak far more to the married woman rather than to roles within the church? If it is speaking to the role of women in the church, then what is up with "women will be saved childbearing"? "Childbearing" is the role of a wife, not women in general. Childbearing for a single woman would be sinful.

Also, this is Paul speaking...the same Paul who told the Romans to render Phoebe any service she required of them...the same Paul who particularly commened Priscilla, a woman who taught Apollos.

In 1 Corinthians, Paul said for women to be silent...and yet also said that women were to wear a head covering when prophesying, a gift that is for the edification of the church. Silent prophesying is oxymoronic.

There are many instances in the Bible where God clearly called women to roles of speaking out to God's people and even holding authority...

As God doesn't change, to me this sets up contradictions if we try to use the text in 1 Corinthians and in 1 Timothy to say that women should not hold the roles of pastor (with overseers or bishops over one) or teacher in the church. However, if we look at 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy as being directed to wives, it all makes much more sense.

 

[gideon3213]

1 Cor 11:3
3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. NKJV

This verse makes it plane that God has established an authority structure for the inhabitants of Earth, and it is 1. God 2. Jesus. 3. Man. 4. Woman.
The word head means absolute control over another. As a CEO of a company is the head of his company and has absolute control over it: and as your own head on your shoulders has control over your body: So also men are to have control over women. (Read Mathew Henry’s commentary on 1 Cor. 11:3-ff)

1 Cor 11:7-10
7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. NKJV

This verse makes it plane that it is only men that are in Gods image. Women are not! It also makes plane what Gods purpose for women is: that of being servants to men. (Helpmeet: is an obedient helper, and companion.)

1 Cor 14:26
How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, NKJV
Here Paul shifts gears and starts to specifically address how men and women are to behave in church gatherings.

1 Cor 14:34-38
34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. If any one does not recognize this, he is not recognized. NKJV/RSV

Here we see a very strong command from the Lord Jesus Christ being given through the apostle Paul; the command for a woman to never utter any form of speech in the church gatherings. This command forbids them from prophesying, speaking in tongues, interpreting tongues, asking questions, giving opinions, or uttering any other form of speech. This, however does not forbid women from singing songs of praise and worship with the congregation.

1 Tim 2:8-15
9 in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10 but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works. 11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. NKJV

Here again we see the command for a woman to be silent in the church. And they are prohibited from teaching men, usurping the authority of men, or exorcising authority over men in any way whatsoever!

Hence we see from the above passages that God strictly forbids women from being pastors of churches. Or from any form of leadership in His church’s. (with the exception of women and children. See Titus 2:1-ff.)

Now lets take a look at Gal 3:26-28
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. KJV

This passage is taken to mean that because there is no male or female in Christ Jesus that women can be pastors of churches and do all that men do in the church. But in order to give it this interpretation; you must ignore all the other teaching of the Bible on this issue. The first thing that we must remember is that Paul is the author of this letter. And in other letters that he wrote (e.g. I Cor, I Tim, etc.) he forbad women from speaking in the church and from teaching or usurping men. How then could Paul have meant for people to understand this passage was a statement of absolute equality between men and women?

But let us look at two other passages that will help us understand this passage better:

Col 3:11 11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. KJV

Col 3:18-22 18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord. 19 Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them. 20 Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord. 21 Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.
22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God: KJV
Notice how similar Col 3:11 is with Gal 3:28. The only thing really missing is ‘male nor female’. Why Paul left it out here is a mystery. (or maybe the mystery is why Paul adds it in Galatians.) Then notice that after Paul stresses our unity in Christ; that just 7 verses later Paul states that Wives must submit themselves to their husbands. Children are to obey their parents. And Servants are to obey their masters. This illustrates that our unity in Christ does not nullify authority structures. (If it did; how could Paul say what he says to wives, children and servants? If unity in Christ did away with authority structures; than wives would no longer need to obey their husbands; children would no longer need to obey there parents; and servants would not need to obey their masters. But this is not the case.)

 

[gideon3213]

Let us look at one finale passage that states this concept more clearly.

1 Cor 12:4-30 4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honorable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honored, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? KJV

This passage makes it plane that we are all one in Christ. But that in the Body we all have different functions that God chooses for us to operate in. (note; we do not get to choose which gift or function we want; rather it is God who chooses for us which gifts and functions that God want’s us to operate in. God give’s no room for selfish ambition in His kingdom. He is the one who chooses who will be an apostle, prophet, or teacher, and what miracles each member will perform. See verse 18, and 28 above.)

The questions in verses 29 and 30 are rhetorical questions with the answer for each being and obvious ‘No’. The point being set forth here is that even though we are all one in Christ; we are not equal to each other in Christ. An apostle is over a prophet in authority; and a Prophet is over a teacher in authority. And the Apostle’s, Prophets, and Teachers are in authority over the rest of the body of Christ.

Now God has spoken in many places concerning His authority structure of men and women. (See I Cor 11:3-16, 14:26-37, I Tim 2:9-15, Titus 2:1-9, Col 3:18, I Pet 3:1-7, Eph 5:22-33 just to name a few. And it is in these passages (and others) that we find out what Gods authority structure is in the home, church, and society.) We need to take heed to Gods instruction’s in these matters! For they have not been negated nor diminished in any way by our unity in Christ! (As many erroneously teach.)

It should be obvious now; in light of these passages; that those who interpret Gal 3:28 to mean that because we are all one in Christ that we are all equal to each other; and thus woman can be pastors, and teacher’s of men; contrary to what God commands in scripture; are seriously twisting the scripture in order to give it a meaning that the Holy Spirit never intended it to have. They need to repent! And conform there lives to God’s word!

For I tell you the truth: if women will not submit to the authority structure that God has ordained for His church here on Earth: How will they ever submit to the authority structure that God has put in place in Heaven?

If women refuse to submit to God's divine authority structure here on earth: they make themselves unfit for the Kingdom of heaven: for if they are continually looking for ways to control the ones that God has placed over them here on earth: they will aslo try to control the ones that God places over them in Heaven! And God will not tolorate such rebellion! this is why feminism is the greatest evil on earth today!

 

[jasoncran]

imigane that i defending feminisim

we men did treat women like crap.

women such as elisabeth candy staton and susan b athony, simple didnt want to be "property'. not saying that you are suggesting that.

they also were agaisnt abortion, for women suffrage, and be able to work if need be.

that is the good fenimism.

please clarify exactly what feminism you mean.

 

[Sparkey]

Can God raise up rocks (no offense ladies) to praise Him?
Certainly.

Was this their original purpose?
No.

Can Woman fill the role that was intended for man? If man continues to do such an abominable job of it, if man continues to "lord it over" all they consider beneath them, Yes! Praise God!

Let us then clean the inside of the cup FIRST.
Let us say, "Follow me AS I FOLLOW CHRIST."
Why is the first commandment the first? It is because we (all children, men and women) need to place priority on worshiping God and conforming ourselves to HIM. If the Bible speaks to men --and then-- speaks to men, saying, "Husbands, love your wives," and "Wives? Obey your husbands." Why then do husbands ignore the command given to them and harp on the command that was whispered to their partner??

Let men understand and depart evil. Let their hearts be turned to their children and let the focus of the family become what God intended. That way it will be a natural outflow of love that completes itself within their expressed love. As each do what is required of them the Lord will do His part. Count on it. And what is required? It is required that we love justice and mercy and walk with our God.

"You should know in your heart that as a man chastens his son, so the LORD your God chastens you. Therefore you shall keep the commandments of the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to fear Him. ...

[12] "lestwhen you have eaten and are full, and have built beautiful houses and dwell in them; ...

[14] "when your heart is lifted up, and you forget the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage; ...

[17] "then you say in your heart, 'My power and the might of my hand have gained me this wealth.' "And you shall remember the LORD your God, for it is He who gives you power to get wealth, that He may establish His covenant which He swore to your fathers, as it is this day. "Then it shall be, if you by any means forget the LORD your God, and follow other gods, and serve them and worship them, I testify against you this day that you shall surely perish.

 

[Sparkey]

The later steps of life has brought me to college campus (again) and there when I preach (in response to questions asked) the issue of gender can often come up. Just a couple days ago I found myself saying, "God does not have a penis." Not something that I would have thought I was gonna say when I got up that morning. There was a young woman who was considering her choices. She (like many others) was taking a philosophy class and while she was looking at her belief system the question came up -- it looked like God didn't like women.

Sad, isn't it?

So my reply went on to speak of the many things that the Lord has done to honor women, one of which I'd like to share here. Consider that it was to the seed of Eve that the Promise was first given. Then consider something that I've been recently reminded of. Pardon if this sounds like an anatomy class for a minute, there's a point to be made. I've recently learned that a man produces about 1,000 sperm per second. That's 60,000 a minute. Over the course of a single hour the production continues and pretty soon I'll need to take a math class to understand what we're talking about.

But contrast this to a woman who has approximately 1 million eggs. Period. (wink - no pun intended). Once every 28 to 30 days or so, a single egg is released, a total of no more than 400 in her lifetime make the trip in the first part of the female reproductive cycle. Now, as if that contrast isn't enough, comparing the millions (billions? I need my calculator) of male gametes to the few hundred female that can contribute to the course - consider also that the Lord Himself, by His own hand, "Knits us together" in the womb. This is such an intimacy --it is by the act of God that the child is formed.

Now consider that women are born with all their sex-cells made at the time of their birth. The fact that the Lord intends to keep the PROMISE that was given to the seed of the woman becomes abundantly clear. Not only are women "knit together" and formed in the womb (like men are) each and every single egg they possess is also.

We can see that God has joined himself to us in every intimate act. How much more should men see the need to flee adultery and fornication and every sexual sin. It is so prevalent today --almost impossible to avoid.

When I read below the thought comes, "Is this 'today' being spoken of"??

• "Some remove landmarks; They seize flocks violently and feed on them;
• They drive away the donkey of the fatherless;
• They take the widow's ox as a pledge.
• They push the needy off the road;
• All the poor of the land are forced to hide.
• Indeed, like wild donkeys in the desert, They go out to their work, searching for food.
• The wilderness yields food for them and for their children.
• They gather their fodder in the field and glean in the vineyard of the wicked.
• They spend the night naked, without clothing, and have no covering in the cold.
• They are wet with the showers of the mountains, and huddle around the rock for want of shelter.
  
• "Some snatch the fatherless from the breast, and take a pledge from the poor.
• They cause the poor to go naked, without clothing; and they take away the sheaves from the hungry.
• They press out oil within their walls, and tread winepresses, yet suffer thirst.
• The dying groan in the city, and the souls of the wounded cry out; Yet God does not charge them with wrong.
  
• "There are those who rebel against the light; They do not know its ways nor abide in its paths.
• The murderer rises with the light; He kills the poor and needy; and in the night he is like a thief.
• The eye of the adulterer waits for the twilight, saying, 'No eye will see me'; and he disguises his face.
  
• In the dark they break into houses which they marked for themselves in the daytime; they do not know the light. For the morning is the same to them as the shadow of death; if someone recognizes them, they are in the terrors of the shadow of death.

As we continue along the course that has been spoken of from the beginning, we do indeed see the children of the darkness getting worse, and should also see the children of the light overcoming those things that have had such victory in the past. As for me? Your prayers are requested, who can stand alone?

 

[Sparkey]

I personally think that we have the cart before the horse when we try to "obey" the clear scriptures that are laid out and mentioned oftentimes below in thread.

It's like we are trying to achieve unity through dissent.

Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things shall be added unto you. This is the main principle that our focus needs to capture. In much the same way, seek first the unity of the faith --in all followers, in the whole body, and the "authority structures" will flow out of our efforts.

Why worry? God has already written His law into nature, do we need to be his followers or his enforcers?

 

[handy]

The first challenge to God's authority we read is when the Serpent says to Eve, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree in the Garden?'"

No. God didn't say that. As a matter of fact, all trees but one were specifically for food for Adam, Eve and the animals.

Eve's response: "From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat.."

Yes, this is correct. Eve knows her stuff here! However: "...but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the Garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, lest you die.'"

Whoa? Where did that come from? Let's back up a bit to Genesis 2:16: And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die."

Nothing about not touching it. Someone added to God's commandment here. God gave the commandment to Adam not Eve, she hadn't been created yet. So, we don't know if Adam correctly taught Eve's God commandment and Eve added the part about not touching, or if Adam, thinking it would be best to make extra, extra sure that Eve didn't mess around with that particular tree added to God's words. But, God's commandment was already corrupted and isn't interesting that the Serpent knew exactly which one of the two was shaky on the commandment, which one would be more likely to fall due to false understanding.

Whether it was Adam that added the part about not touching or Eve, it was Adam's responsibility to correctly teach Eve God's commandment, and he blew it. He either didn't teach her correctly or didn't correct her misunderstanding. The result...the Fall.

There is much danger in both adding to God's purposes and commandment and in misunderstanding what His purposes and commandment are. It truly behooves us to make sure that we have it right before we start telling others what God says. Otherwise we become false teachers and false teaching is very destructive.

Unfortunately, ever since before the fall, men haven't done a good job with God's created helper for him. Adam didn't teach Eve properly, as was his responsibility, over time, men began to treat women as little more than servants and as Jason pointed out, subsequent history proves men have treated women like crap.

Hi gideon3213, welcome to the forum! :waving

I have to admit, my hackles raised a bit last night when I read this:

The word head means absolute control over another. As a CEO of a company is the head of his company and has absolute control over it: and as your own head on your shoulders has control over your body: So also men are to have control over women.

and this:

This verse makes it plane that it is only men that are in Gods image. Women are not! It also makes plane what Gods purpose for women is: that of being servants to men. (Helpmeet: is an obedient helper, and companion.)

I actually spent a bit of time last night composing a response, but realized after I was done that I was too miffed and not presenting my differing opinion lovingly enough.

So, I went to bed and woke up rested, refreshed and ready to talk through this.

Rather than make the same mistake of Adam and Eve, not correcting wrong understanding of God's words, let us consider what God actually is taught us by examining the Scriptures.

I'd like to examine two concepts here...the concept that "head" means "absolute control over another" and women were created to be servants to men because "helpmeet" means "obedient helper".

First, the concept that "head" means "absolute control over another"...is this what the Scriptures mean, what God is telling us, when He says that the husband is to be the head of the wife. In order for us to know what God meant by this, we need only examine texts which speaks of headship and authority within Christ's body.

Ephesians 5 is a good place to start:

v22 Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. Fort he husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

The word "subject" or in the KJV "submit" is the Greek word hypotassō .

The word has several definitions meaning "to arrange under, to subordinate" "to subject oneself" "to obey" "to submit to one's control". Strong's note on the word states:

This word was a Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader". In non-military use, it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden".

Blue Letter Bible - Home Page

Compare this with Ephesians 6:1 "Children, obey your parents" and Ephesians 6:5 "Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters."

The word used here is hypakouō meaning "to harken to a command to obey". From Strong's, "of one who on the knock at the door comes to listen who it is, (the duty of a porter)".

Hypotasso and hypakouo have two differing meanings, one is where one puts oneself under another's authority and the other means a servant or one whose duty it is to "harken to", to jump to it when commanded.

Jesus tells us in Matthew 20 25-28, "<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-23818"></sup>But Jesus called them to Himself and said, 'You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant,and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave;just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.'"



The terms "lord it over them" and "exercise authority over them" are expressed in the words "katakyrieuō" and "katexousiazō".


"Katakyrieuo" means to "hold in subjection" "to be master over". It is never used in relationship of Jesus and His Church nor for husbands and wives. It is never used in the context of Christians relationships with each other, as a matter of fact, it is the same word used in 1 Peter 5:3 where Peter exhorts the leaders of the church not to "lord it over" those under their charge but to be examples.


"Katexousiazo" is another word that means to wield power and it is only used by our Lord and only in the context of Gentiles wielding power over others. Never is it used in the context of the church, of Christians or between a husband and wife.


This is born out by Ephesians 5:25-33 which shows us that the attitude of a husband for his wife is to be the same attitude as that of Christ towards the church...not as "lording it over" but as one willing to sacrifice himself out of love for her.


<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-29330"></sup>Ephesians 5:25-30 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself;for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church,because we are members of His body.

There is just nothing in that text that indicates that husbands are to exercise "absolute control" over his wife, nor is there any other verse or text that indicates that kind of "lording it over" either. We see from comparing instructions to wives with instructions to children and servants that there is a difference in the relationship between husbands and wives and parents/children and masters/servants.

Understanding that the word for "submit" or "subject" when spoken of a wife means a voluntary attitude of giving in, of cooperating and assuming responsibility fits right in with the idea that God created woman to be a helper to man. Not a servant, but a helper. Not one who is under the thumb, but by the side providing aid where the man needs help.

Which brings me to the idea that "helpmeet" supposedly means, "that of being servants to men. (Helpmeet: is an obedient helper, and companion.)"

Let's look at that word.

'Ezer is the word translated at helpmeet or helper. It is used 21 times in Scriptures. Twice it is used in reference to God creating woman. 3 times it is used in a military sense of help coming (or not as the case may be) during times of war or strife. The other 16 times, the word is applied directly to God helping man or helping the nation Israel. Unless we want to define God as an "obedient helper" to man, we need to rethink the idea that "helpmeet" means servant-hood.'

In truth, I cannot find any text in which wives are directed to obey their husband in the sense of a child obeying parents or servants obeying masters. The language just isn't there. But, just as the Bride of Christ must subject herself to the Lord and work to accomplish all of His purposes, we wives are to subject ourselves to our husbands and help him meet all of his needs and responsibilities.

 

[jasoncran]

a reasonable position of yours dora.

 

[handy]

Going back to the idea now of women pastors...

...again I've brought some things up several times now, and sort of hoped that we could discuss them.

Here it is:

I do think that the bible is pretty clear that elders (bishops) and overseers of the church should be men, but as for preaching and teaching, even holding the role of pastor (which in some churches is not the only authoritarian role there is) I ask again....

Doesn't the context of 1 Timothy 2 speak far more to the married woman rather than to roles within the church? If it is speaking to the role of women in the church, then what is up with "women will be saved childbearing"? "Childbearing" is the role of a wife, not women in general. Childbearing for a single woman would be sinful.

Also, this is Paul speaking...the same Paul who told the Romans to render Phoebe any service she required of them...the same Paul who particularly commened Priscilla, a woman who taught Apollos.

In 1 Corinthians, Paul said for women to be silent...and yet also said that women were to wear a head covering when prophesying, a gift that is for the edification of the church. Silent prophesying is oxymoronic.

There are many instances in the Bible where God clearly called women to roles of speaking out to God's people and even holding authority...

As God doesn't change, to me this sets up contradictions if we try to use the text in 1 Corinthians and in 1 Timothy to say that women should not hold the roles of pastor (with overseers or bishops over one) or teacher in the church. However, if we look at 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy as being directed to wives, it all makes much more sense.

There is a lot within the last few posts to go over, but I just wanted to bring these questions up again, and maybe as we continue to discuss this very important topic, we could thresh this out.

For, if we can establish that 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy are speaking more to wives and their relationship to husbands within the church, it will open up more insight as to whether or not women should ever teach a man (like Priscilla did Apollos) or speak to the body (as one would expect prophetesses like the daughters of Phillip did) or exercise a certain amount of authority (such as when Paul directed the Romans to do as Phoebe told them to do).