Can you be X and christian.

[Pebbles]

An indivdual asked me recently "can you be gay and christian?"

While I know you think homosexuality is a sin and this thread isn't here to discuss that.
I got mixed views from various sources I read. some "Yes you can" others "No you can't."

first part is if you feel that "no they can't." do you extend this theme of determining who is and who is not a christian to all indivduals who sin? (Alcoholism, gluttony, lust ect)... or just homosexuallity?

If you feel that "yes you can." what is your reasoning for that? Would you welcome such an indivdual to your church?

 

[Drew]

First of all, I am not sure what "X" means.

I believe one be gay and also a Christian. I am inclined to believe that people do not "choose" to be gay - why would a person choose a sexual orientation that will place them in such a difficult position in relation to the rest of society?

Do not misunderstand me. I believe that homosexuality is a "problem" in the sense that it deviates from the plan that God has for humanity as a whole. But, and this is key, I believe that the appropriate way to think about homosexuality is to see it as part of the very fabric of a fallen world, not as something certain people "choose". Just like cancer. Do we morally censure people who get cancer? No we do not (generally). Do people choose to get cancer. Generally, no. We should think about the presence of homosexual inclinations in the same way: something that "happens" to some people for no seeming reason we can attribute to the specific individual.

In case it is not otherwise clear, I see a distinction between the presence of homosexual inclination, on the one hand, and homosexual activity on the other. I do not think people who have homosexual inclinations are any "more sinful" than a person who gets cancer (remember, I see both these things as "problems" deriving from the fall, not "moral choices"). But
I do believe the Christian is called to restrain from acting on homosexual inclinations. Just like, for example, a person born with a genetic pre-disposition to consume alchohol to excess has the responsbility to restrain that urge (with the compassionate support of the church, of course).

As should be clear, I would welcome a person with homosexual inclinations into the church. And I would also welcome a 'practicing' homosexual as well. In the latter case, I might, if I have the courage of my convictions (which I should), after having earned that person's respect, encourage this person to restrain acting on such urges.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I have homosexual tendencies and I'm a Christian. Some Christian denominations are more accepting of living the gay lifestyle than others, so there isn't one yes or no answer for all of Christendom anymore. I take a more traditional, conservative stance; homosexuality is a form of sin to which some of us are predisposed, and one must repent of it and either live a life of celibacy or get married to someone of the other sex, if that person can make a heterosexual marriage work (sexuality isn't static and it isn't black or white, so some formerly homosexual people are able to make a go of a monogamous, heterosexual marriage).

I would say that engaging in homosexual acts, especially on a regular basis without remorse or repentance, would lead me to believe that one is in serious sin that jeopardizes one's salvation. The Catholics consider homosexual behavior a mortal sin, and I tend to agree--it is serious and it is unacceptable. Calvinists would probably say that continuing to engage in homosexual behavior--not "slip ups" here and there, but continuously--would indicate that the person was never truly converted in the first place.

As for the "gay-affirming" congregations: I think they've deviated from the Scripture. Their form of "love" is really tolerance for sin that destroys life in this world and sets the sinner up for eternal death in the next. That's not love.

 

[jasoncran]

so one can be a sinner/christian, a stealing christian, an murdering christian, a hatefilled christian.

we all have crosses to bear, Jesus said pick up your cross and following me

paul murdered christian. he never after his repentance said in the epistles i am a mudering christian. No he said i have been forgiven and the old way is gone.

behold he that is in christ is a new creation.. to repent means to turn from not partially and. its not easy for each of us with sins that seems to own us. for me lust but that is what the bible says to do

why would God list sins and say such of them were you? that implies deliverance was possible. God is able to heal them.

 

[reba]

I have homosexual tendencies and I'm a Christian. Some Christian denominations are more accepting of living the gay lifestyle than others, so there isn't one yes or no answer for all of Christendom anymore. I take a more traditional, conservative stance; homosexuality is a form of sin to which some of us are predisposed, and one must repent of it and either live a life of celibacy or get married to someone of the other sex, if that person can make a heterosexual marriage work (sexuality isn't static and it isn't black or white, so some formerly homosexual people are able to make a go of a monogamous, heterosexual marriage).

I would say that engaging in homosexual acts, especially on a regular basis without remorse or repentance, would lead me to believe that one is in serious sin that jeopardizes one's salvation. The Catholics consider homosexual behavior a mortal sin, and I tend to agree--it is serious and it is unacceptable. Calvinists would probably say that continuing to engage in homosexual behavior--not "slip ups" here and there, but continuously--would indicate that the person was never truly converted in the first place.

As for the "gay-affirming" congregations: I think they've deviated from the Scripture. Their form of "love" is really tolerance for sin that destroys life in this world and sets the sinner up for eternal death in the next. That's not love.

Well stated from an informed source! Good post Empowered

 

[Classik]

Here lies the message:

so one can be a sinner/christian, a stealing christian, an murdering christian, a hatefilled christian.

we all have crosses to bear, Jesus said pick up your cross and following me

paul murdered christian. he never after his repentance said in the epistles i am a mudering christian. No he said i have been forgiven and the old way is gone.

behold he that is in christ is a new creation.. to repent means to turn from not partially and. its not easy for each of us with sins that seems to own us. for me lust but that is what the bible says to do

why would God list sins and say such of them were you? that implies deliverance was possible. God is able to heal them.

Thanks for the scriptural perspective.

 

[D4Christ]

Well stated from an informed source! Good post Empowered

I have to agree. I thought it was a well written, honest post from empowered that doesn't make excuses for homosexuality.

It reminds me of the plight of eunuchs in the bible. I know for some this means castration only, but some argue that it may also refer to a man who is not castrated but who is impotent, celebate, or who displays effeminate characteristics. Indeed Christ addressed eunuchs in Matt 19. First Christ defined marriage between a male and female. When asked if it is better not to marry Christ made a statement that he said everyone would not be able to accept.

<SUP>11</SUP> “Not everyone can accept this statement,†Jesus said. “Only those whom God helps. <SUP id=en-NLT-23748 class=versenum>12</SUP> Some are born as eunuchs, some have been made eunuchs by others, and some choose not to marry for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.â€

Since eunuchs were not married, Christ seems to be saying if you've been castrated or were born "castrated" possibly refering to being born effeminate, you won't marry...same as those who choose not to marry. This statement goes against the entire pro-homosexual movement that tries to convince gay christians to continue in their lifestyle because they were "born this way".

Some may say this is unfair. Why would God allow people to be born a eunuch? Christ admitted that many will find this hard to accept. But He did not provide options or a way out. For those affected it is their cross to bear, for they still have to abide by scriptures same as those not affected. So being a eunuch or being homsexual (for those who feel they are born like this) does not preclude you from Christianity. Your Christianity is based on your acceptance of Christ and obedience to the scriptures.

 

[Elijah674]

so one can be a sinner/christian, a stealing christian, an murdering christian, a hatefilled christian.

we all have crosses to bear, Jesus said pick up your cross and following me

paul murdered christian. he never after his repentance said in the epistles i am a mudering christian. No he said i have been forgiven and the old way is gone.

behold he that is in christ is a new creation.. to repent means to turn from not partially and. its not easy for each of us with sins that seems to own us. for me lust but that is what the bible says to do

why would God list sins and say such of them were you? that implies deliverance was possible. God is able to heal them.

Good post content.
--Elijah

 

[Free]

First of all, I am not sure what "X" means.

I believe one be gay and also a Christian. I am inclined to believe that people do not "choose" to be gay - why would a person choose a sexual orientation that will place them in such a difficult position in relation to the rest of society?

Do not misunderstand me. I believe that homosexuality is a "problem" in the sense that it deviates from the plan that God has for humanity as a whole. But, and this is key, I believe that the appropriate way to think about homosexuality is to see it as part of the very fabric of a fallen world, not as something certain people "choose". Just like cancer. Do we morally censure people who get cancer? No we do not (generally). Do people choose to get cancer. Generally, no. We should think about the presence of homosexual inclinations in the same way: something that "happens" to some people for no seeming reason we can attribute to the specific individual.

In case it is not otherwise clear, I see a distinction between the presence of homosexual inclination, on the one hand, and homosexual activity on the other. I do not think people who have homosexual inclinations are any "more sinful" than a person who gets cancer (remember, I see both these things as "problems" deriving from the fall, not "moral choices"). But
I do believe the Christian is called to restrain from acting on homosexual inclinations. Just like, for example, a person born with a genetic pre-disposition to consume alchohol to excess has the responsbility to restrain that urge (with the compassionate support of the church, of course).

As should be clear, I would welcome a person with homosexual inclinations into the church. And I would also welcome a 'practicing' homosexual as well. In the latter case, I might, if I have the courage of my convictions (which I should), after having earned that person's respect, encourage this person to restrain acting on such urges.

I have homosexual tendencies and I'm a Christian. Some Christian denominations are more accepting of living the gay lifestyle than others, so there isn't one yes or no answer for all of Christendom anymore. I take a more traditional, conservative stance; homosexuality is a form of sin to which some of us are predisposed, and one must repent of it and either live a life of celibacy or get married to someone of the other sex, if that person can make a heterosexual marriage work (sexuality isn't static and it isn't black or white, so some formerly homosexual people are able to make a go of a monogamous, heterosexual marriage).

I would say that engaging in homosexual acts, especially on a regular basis without remorse or repentance, would lead me to believe that one is in serious sin that jeopardizes one's salvation. The Catholics consider homosexual behavior a mortal sin, and I tend to agree--it is serious and it is unacceptable. Calvinists would probably say that continuing to engage in homosexual behavior--not "slip ups" here and there, but continuously--would indicate that the person was never truly converted in the first place.

As for the "gay-affirming" congregations: I think they've deviated from the Scripture. Their form of "love" is really tolerance for sin that destroys life in this world and sets the sinner up for eternal death in the next. That's not love.

I believe that these best reflect the biblical position.

 

[patience7]

First of all, I am not sure what "X" means.

I believe one be gay and also a Christian. I am inclined to believe that people do not "choose" to be gay - why would a person choose a sexual orientation that will place them in such a difficult position in relation to the rest of society?

Do not misunderstand me. I believe that homosexuality is a "problem" in the sense that it deviates from the plan that God has for humanity as a whole. But, and this is key, I believe that the appropriate way to think about homosexuality is to see it as part of the very fabric of a fallen world, not as something certain people "choose". Just like cancer. Do we morally censure people who get cancer? No we do not (generally). Do people choose to get cancer. Generally, no. We should think about the presence of homosexual inclinations in the same way: something that "happens" to some people for no seeming reason we can attribute to the specific individual.

In case it is not otherwise clear, I see a distinction between the presence of homosexual inclination, on the one hand, and homosexual activity on the other. I do not think people who have homosexual inclinations are any "more sinful" than a person who gets cancer (remember, I see both these things as "problems" deriving from the fall, not "moral choices"). But
I do believe the Christian is called to restrain from acting on homosexual inclinations. Just like, for example, a person born with a genetic pre-disposition to consume alchohol to excess has the responsbility to restrain that urge (with the compassionate support of the church, of course).

As should be clear, I would welcome a person with homosexual inclinations into the church. And I would also welcome a 'practicing' homosexual as well. In the latter case, I might, if I have the courage of my convictions (which I should), after having earned that person's respect, encourage this person to restrain acting on such urges.

How is getting cancer even remotely close to having homosexual inclinations or being a "practicing homosexual"?

I would agree that homosexual tendencies (if restrained from) are quite different from an actual practicing homosexual.

 

[patience7]

D4Christ;571523]I have to agree. I thought it was a well written, honest post from empowered that doesn't make excuses for homosexuality.

It reminds me of the plight of eunuchs in the bible. I know for some this means castration only, but some argue that it may also refer to a man who is not castrated but who is impotent, celebate, or who displays effeminate characteristics. Indeed Christ addressed eunuchs in Matt 19. First Christ defined marriage between a male and female. When asked if it is better not to marry Christ made a statement that he said everyone would not be able to accept.

Since eunuchs were not married, Christ seems to be saying if you've been castrated or were born "castrated" possibly refering to being born effeminate, you won't marry...same as those who choose not to marry. This statement goes against the entire pro-homosexual movement that tries to convince gay christians to continue in their lifestyle because they were "born this way".

Some may say this is unfair. Why would God allow people to be born a eunuch? Christ admitted that many will find this hard to accept. But He did not provide options or a way out. For those affected it is their cross to bear, for they still have to abide by scriptures same as those not affected. So being a eunuch or being homsexual (for those who feel they are born like this) does not preclude you from Christianity. Your Christianity is based on your acceptance of Christ and obedience to the scriptures.

Definition of eunuch - Strong's -

1) a bed keeper, bed guard, superintendent of the bedchamber, chamberlain
a) in the palace of oriental monarchs who support numerous wives the superintendent of the women's apartment or harem, an office held by eunuchs
b) an emasculated man, a eunuch
1) eunuchs in oriental courts held by other offices of greater, held by the Ethiopian eunuch mentioned in Ac. 8:27-39.
c) one naturally incapacitated
1) for marriage
2) begetting children
d) one who voluntarily abstains from marriage

An eunuch has nothing to do with being "gay" or having "gay inclinations". A eunuch is a castrated man employed as a harem attendant or as functioning in certain Asian courts (some eunuchs which were made eunuchs of men), or a man or boy whose testes are non-functioning (born from their mother's womb; and naturally incapacitated), and some who voluntarily abstain from marriage for the kingdom of heaven's sake.

 

[WIP]

An indivdual asked me recently "can you be gay and christian?"
I believe the answer to this question as it is presented is Yes. Being gay is no more a sin than being a thief or ....... being a sinner. It is not a sin to be a sinner. It is a sin to act out and succumb to sin. Engaging in homosexual activity is a sin. Being a Christian does not mean we are not sinners. We continue to make mistakes but Christians also understand and accept the blood atonement paid for our sins and in acknowledging that sacrifice we embrace the gift of salvation that comes from that sacrifice and return our love to Him who paid that ultimate price. A Christian demonstrates that love by repenting from sins and not willingly and freely committing sinful acts.

Ever accidentally hurt someone and immediately upon realizing what you did you experience an overwhelming sense of sadness, guilt, pain, or remorse for hurting that person? That is how a Christian feels when he/she commits a sin.

While I know you think homosexuality is a sin and this thread isn't here to discuss that.
I got mixed views from various sources I read. some "Yes you can" others "No you can't."

first part is if you feel that "no they can't." do you extend this theme of determining who is and who is not a christian to all indivduals who sin? (Alcoholism, gluttony, lust ect)... or just homosexuallity?
There is not one person on this earth that could possibly qualify as a Christian based on that criteria. We all sin. It is in our nature. It is not our place to decide or determine who is or who is not a Christian. Oh, we may have our thoughts, which is potentially the sin of judgment, but only God knows our true hearts.

If you feel that "yes you can." what is your reasoning for that? Would you welcome such an indivdual to your church?
To the second part of this question, yes, I would not only welcome this individual to our church I would invite them. Every single member or visitor to our church is a sinner. We all have our skeletons in our closets. We are all called to repentance and that is part of what being a member of a church congregation is all about. It's about fellowship, support, prayer, and accountability.

 

[Elijah674]

Folks put one sin above another. The ones of Luke 12:47-48 are the ones that Inspiration has for the worst offenders!

And in James 1:15 we find what has all folks ending, (if that be the case) as in being BLOTTED OUT OF EXISTENCE, if sin (any sin) MATURES TO ITS FINISH. (1 John 5:16-17)

James 1
[12] Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

[13] Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

[14] But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

[15] Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

If one will tie together these verses you will find a start & a FINISHED MATURE Ending one way or the other. In Psalms 19:13 you can see the word used of 'THE GREAT TRANSGRESSION' there. Meaning that [[PRESUMPTOUS SINS]] lead to the FINISHED SIN. (think of these Rev. 17:1-5 ones! these are not all sinners of the same type sin. But ALL are prophesied lost!)

--Elijah