Can you remit sins , John 20:19-23 ????

[Vince]

The authority to forgive sin is given to Jesus' disciples, which included the Apostles. It did not include any Catholic priests, as the Catholic Church would not exist for centuries to come. It did not include anyone who prayed to dead sinners, used statues, baptized babies, believed in Purgatory, or belonged to a religion that blended paganism with Christianity to form a new and better religion.

John 20:20 Then the DISCIPLES were glad when they saw the Lord. So Jesus said to THEM again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you." And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to THEM, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

 

[ronniechoate34]

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

Matt 18
17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Ac:2:37: Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Ac:2:38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Ac:2:39: For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Ac:2:40: And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Ac:2:41: Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


Ac:3:17: And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
Ac:3:18: But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
Ac:3:19: Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Ac:3:20: And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Ac:3:21: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.


Ac:8:21: Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
Ac:8:22: Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
Ac:8:23: For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
Ac:8:24: Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.
Ac:8:25: And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.


Ac:13:37: But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
Ac:13:38: Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
Ac:13:39: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.


Ac:26:15: And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
Ac:26:16: But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Ac:26:17: Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
Ac:26:18: To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.



I believe that these scriptures speak volumes more than the few you chose to use.

 

[glorydaz]

The reference in John 20 has to do with the commission given the apostles...it is the gospel message. Man doesn't do the saving or the forgiving...only God can forgive sins. As we preach the gospel we show men the way to have their sins forgiven. When the apostles proclaim that someone is forgiven of sins, based upon the inspiration of the Holy Spirit which was just "breathed on them", God has already forgiven their sins...they are just obeying the leading of the Holy Spirit to proclaim it.

When we witness to someone, we are able to tell them that if they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ their sins are forgiven...if they don't their sins are retained. The apostles and all believers are told to proclaim the forgiveness of sin through repentance and belief in Jesus. We have no power in ourselves to forgive or remit their sins...only God can see the heart...only God can save....only God can forgive our sins. We are just the proclaimers of that good news.

 

[ronniechoate34]

Can you show me a scripture where an apostle forgave anyones sins????

 

[Vince]

Can you show me a scripture where an apostle forgave anyones sins????

Back in the beginning, I said that the way we remit sins is by bringing sinners to Christ. At Pentecost, Peter, the other Apostles, and the disciples who were with them remitted the sins of 3,000 people.

 

[glorydaz]

Can you show me a scripture where an apostle forgave anyones sins????

Back in the beginning, I said that the way we remit sins is by bringing sinners to Christ. At Pentecost, Peter, the other Apostles, and the disciples who were with them remitted the sins of 3,000 people.

It's wonderful sharing the good news, isn't it? "Bringing sinners to Christ"...AMEN.
Jesus died for the sins of the whole world...when a sinner finds out he's forgiven it's as good as watching a baby being born. When we forgive those who have sinned against us, it's the same way...freeing them and us. :yes

 

[francisdesales]

Can you show me a scripture where an apostle forgave anyones sins????

Second Corinthians 2.

 

[francisdesales]

I understand....I was a Catholic and went to Catholic school.
I respect what you believe, but I see it otherwise.

Not being an essential for salvation, I'm confident one day we'll see eye to eye concerning all things. :amen

I hope for your sake, you are correct... But obviously, I do not know God's mind on this matter...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

"The priest, or more properly, the bishop, was the guarantor that the Eucharist Itself was validly the Body and Blood of Christ, even in the days of Ignatius of Antioch, 110 AD."

There is no Scriptural justification for this practice. There is also a lot of doubt about the accuracy of the statement. A liturgical priesthood developed slowly within professed Christianity, as pagan customs were blended in, but it wasn't that powerful in 110 AD. Early post-Biblical writings refer to bishops, elders, and deacons, but not to priests.

Baloney. There is no doubt. Historians accept the writings of Ignatius of Antioch AS WELL as the Didache AND Clement of Rome's writing to the Corinthians. That is three writings, independently written, that speak of the forgiveness of sins dependent upon the community forgiving them - we find this even in Sacred Scriptures. Second Corinthians 2 and James 5 clearly speak of forgiveness of sins through elders or Apostolic authority, given to them by John 20. You cannot wish this away, Christian history is full of such things. Just because particular Chrisitans do not believe this anymore does not take away from the fact.

Regards

 

[ronniechoate34]

2Co:2:9: For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
2Co:2:10: To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
2Co:2:11: Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.


One of satan's many devices is to use man's pride to with hold forgiveness. In fact that's sinful and according to the Bible refusing to forgive a person could cause them to be swallowed up in much grief. That's why Paul forgave his brothers and sisters. Not because he held their salvation in his hands.

 

[Vince]

"Historians accept the writings of Ignatius of Antioch AS WELL as the Didache AND Clement of Rome's writing to the Corinthians."

Uhm, no. This is what happens when you base your religion on the doctrines of men. The Didache is a phony document that claims to have written by the Apostles. While it clearly teaches baptism by immersion after a person accepts Christ, it is a manual that seems to have been adapted from synagogues. It attaches man-made rules to Scripture, such as requiring fasting before a new Christian is baptized.

The Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians states that all the Apostles and all the men they appointed were dead. The Apostle John was still alive, and Titus (to whom Paul wrote the Epistle) was still alive. Clement never claims authority to tell the Corinthians what to do, and he never refers to priests.

 

[glorydaz]

2Co:2:9: For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
2Co:2:10: To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
2Co:2:11: Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.


One of satan's many devices is to use man's pride to with hold forgiveness. In fact that's sinful and according to the Bible refusing to forgive a person could cause them to be swallowed up in much grief. That's why Paul forgave his brothers and sisters. Not because he held their salvation in his hands.

Exactly....

 

[chestertonrules]

What makes you think they wouldn't appoint successors. We know that they chose Mathias to replace Judas. We also know that Paul was accepted as an apostle.

FYI:

John 20
23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

My question was not if the apostles appointed successors or not. We will assume that the apostles have been given the authority to forgive sin as you state. My questions were where in scripture does it state that these successors were given the same authority as the apostles and also where in scripture does it state that we (as sinners) are told to go these men and not directly to God for the forgiveness of our sins. I believe that we can go directly to our God and have our sins forgiven, however, I respect your view and am not trying to argue. I'm just curious where in scripture this doctrine comes from.
Westtexas

Jesus told us to listen to those he sent. What did the early Church teach?

It is possible to go directly to God for forgiveness, but Jesus gave the apostles specific instructions about the forgiveness of sins. Why would you reject it?

I think the passage in in John is quite explicit. When you ask where in scripture the doctrine comes from I have to wonder what you mean.


Here's more, however:

Matt 18
17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
18"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

2 Cor 5
18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Some early Christian writings:

Do not come to prayer with a guilty conscience." Epistle of Barnabas, 19:12 (A.D. 74).

“In church confess your sins, and do not come to your prayer with a guilt conscience. Such is the Way of Life...On the Lord's own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks; but first confess your sins, so that your sacrifice may be pure." Didache, 4:14,14:1 (c. A.D. 90).

"Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness[of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. It is well to reverence both God and the bishop." Ignatius, Epistle to the Smyraeans, 9 (c. A.D. 110).

"Father who knowest the hearts of all grant upon this Thy servant whom Thou hast chosen for the episcopate to feed Thy holy flock and serve as Thine high priest, that he may minister blamelessly by night and day, that he may unceasingly behold and appropriate Thy countenance and offer to Thee the gifts of Thy holy Church. And that by the high priestly Spirit he may have authority to forgive sins..." Hippolytus, Apostolic Tradition, 3 (A.D. 215)

"In addition to these there is also a seventh, albeit hard and laborious: the remission of sins through penance...when he does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord." Origen, Homilies on Leviticus, 2:4 (A.D. 248).

 

[chestertonrules]

I believe that these scriptures speak volumes more than the few you chose to use.

I see no contradiction.

Do you have a point?

 

[francisdesales]

2Co:2:9: For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.
2Co:2:10: To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
2Co:2:11: Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.


One of satan's many devices is to use man's pride to with hold forgiveness. In fact that's sinful and according to the Bible refusing to forgive a person could cause them to be swallowed up in much grief. That's why Paul forgave his brothers and sisters. Not because he held their salvation in his hands.

How do you KNOW that God forgives YOU??? When you looked lustfully at a woman and thought about taking her to bed - and then later were sorry about it, how do you ABSOLUTELY KNOW you are forgiven by God?

The sacrament of Reconciliation, given to us by God, enables us to KNOW we are forgiven for PARTICULAR AND SPECIFIC sins when we hear it in the confessional.

Knowing we are forgiven is a tremendous weight lifted from your shoulders. You cannot have that feeling by going into your bedroom and praying for a minute in private...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

"Historians accept the writings of Ignatius of Antioch AS WELL as the Didache AND Clement of Rome's writing to the Corinthians."

Uhm, no. This is what happens when you base your religion on the doctrines of men. The Didache is a phony document that claims to have written by the Apostles. While it clearly teaches baptism by immersion after a person accepts Christ, it is a manual that seems to have been adapted from synagogues. It attaches man-made rules to Scripture, such as requiring fasting before a new Christian is baptized.

Uhm, no???

The Didache is not a "phoney document". OBVIOUSLY, you have NEVER read it because NOWHERE does it "claim to have been written by the Apostles". It purports to be the TEACHINGS OF THE APOSTLES, not WRITTEN by an apostle. A person can just as easily transcribe onto paper what St. James taught regarding the Gospel and accurately call it "The Teachings of the Apostles". The Pastorals also have the authority of Paul, even though it is quite likely he didn't write them.

"A manual from synagogues" is a comment from an anachronistic mind who has forgotten that Christianity came from Judaism. It shows an inability to note that there are several "Jewish" Christian writings, such as Matthew and James. The entire Christian corpus is not Paul. Christianity was NOT monolithic, even during the writing of the New Testament. Acts 15 proves that.

Christ HIMSELF said that after the bridegroom left, His disciples WOULD FAST! Shall we take it that you are not a disciple of Christ because you refuse to fast?

These writings accurately state how the first Christians practised their faith. Just because YOU PERSONALLY do not believe in such things reflects upon your 16th century brand of Christianity, at best, not upon how "things should be done"...

 

[ronniechoate34]

How do you KNOW that God forgives YOU??? When you looked lustfully at a woman and thought about taking her to bed - and then later were sorry about it, how do you ABSOLUTELY KNOW you are forgiven by God?

Psalms:34:18: The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.


Psalms:51:17: The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.


Lu:18:10: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Lu:18:11: The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Lu:18:12: I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Lu:18:13: And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Lu:18:14: I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


Lu:17:3: Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Lu:17:4: And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

The sacrament of Reconciliation, given to us by God, enables us to KNOW we are forgiven for PARTICULAR AND SPECIFIC sins when we hear it in the confessional.

I don't need that I have the Word of God. That's how I know that I am forgiven.

Knowing we are forgiven is a tremendous weight lifted from your shoulders. You cannot have that feeling by going into your bedroom and praying for a minute in private...

I know this. It takes a measure of time.

Ac:3:19: Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

 

[francisdesales]

How do you KNOW that God forgives YOU??? When you looked lustfully at a woman and thought about taking her to bed - and then later were sorry about it, how do you ABSOLUTELY KNOW you are forgiven by God?

Psalms:34:18: The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.


Psalms:51:17: The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

How do you know you are contrite "enough"?? Some people are scrupulous and aren't sure if God really forgave them because they weren't contrite enough. Ever hear of Martin Luther?

Lu:18:10: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Lu:18:11: The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Lu:18:12: I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Lu:18:13: And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Lu:18:14: I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


Lu:17:3: Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Lu:17:4: And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

This says absolutely nothing about you, ronnie. Just the publican.

I don't need that I have the Word of God. That's how I know that I am forgiven.

The Word of God according to you. Why did Jesus tell the Apostles they had the power to forgive sins if "all I need is me and Jesus"? Where does the NT speak in such a manner that sins are forgiven by private prayer to God in our closets? It seems that a careful reading of Scriptures shows it is much more common for the forgiveness of sins to be done through the ministry of men, whether the High Priest in the Holy of Holies, offering a sacrifice at the Temple, or calling upon the elders when one is sick to have his sins forgiven. IF we ONLY are to go to God, why does James 5 speak of calling upon the elders to pray that a person's sins be forgiven? Why not just "go to God myself"???

I know this. It takes a measure of time.

Maybe, maybe not... I don't see how the virtue of humility and obedience is developed in your bedroom. Neither did the first Christians.

Ac:3:19: Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

[/quote]

They repented in public, didn't they, ronnie...

 

[glorydaz]

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit. Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much....is isn't man that forgives sin but the prayers for the man that lead him to repent...then God does the healing and the forgiving. The sinner must be converted...repent of his sins, then God forgives him. Man's part is praying and preaching the Word so the sinner can repent and the Lord can forgive. Man neither heals nor forgives...he is merely the instrument God uses to bring about healing and repentance.

 

[glorydaz]

How do you know you are contrite "enough"?? Some people are scrupulous and aren't sure if God really forgave them because they weren't contrite enough. Ever hear of Martin Luther?

That's the point, though. No man can know whether someone else is contrite enough.
Therefore, no man can forgive sins. God, alone, can see man's heart.

What man can do is call on the sinner to truly repent, and assure him that if he does that, God is faithful to forgive him his sin.