Can you remit sins , John 20:19-23 ????

[chestertonrules]

What did Clement call those chosen by God to lead the Church?

The highest rank he gave was bishop. He made no reference to popes, cardinals, or archbishops, as they had not been invented yet.

Both Clement and Ignatius used "bishop" in the Biblical sense, as a person in charge of one church.

So do you believe that the Bishops are still in charge?

Do you listen to the Bishops?

 

[francisdesales]

What do you call the person in a leadership role who answers to a Bishop?

An elder.

In the New Testament, the PATTERN, but not the command, was that there was one church in a city, led by a bishop. The church met in many separate locations. The bishop was assisted by elders. The Greek word "bishop" means "overseer." In secular Greek, it is used for the supervisor of a construction crew, and for a building inspector. The only place where the Bible actually describes a bishop says that he is the steward of the house of God. A steward was a paid employee, who ran the household for the owner.

The idea that a bishop is the spiritual ruler of a geographical area, with more than one church under him came later. It is unscriptural, and early Christian writings (which have no authority over us) confirm that the early church followed the Biblical pattern, not the later one.

You have not read the Pastorals, have you... Read the first few lines of Titus... Paul COMMANDS Timothy and Titus to continue to preach the faith. The faith given to them, as a deposit. To ensure its purity, since false preachers were already popping up, thus, in my opinion, was the driving force behind an heirarchal command. To protect the teachings of the Apostles. We see this is later writings, such as Irenaeus and Tertullian.

Has it occured to you that the people of 100 AD were in a better position to know what was "Scriptural" than you are???

 

[francisdesales]

"The title of the overseers is irrelevant."

No, it is very relevant. And the word "priest" is not used.

Yes, the message that Christians needed to obey Jewish Law was sent without the authority of the Apostles. "Priests" are not mentioned in the story. Likewise, people who teach us to use statues, pray to dead sinners, make the Sign of the Cross, and obey the Pope do so without the authority of the Apostles.

I did not use a word search to find out that the word "priest" does not appear in the epistle of Clement the Corinthians. I looked it up in the epistle itself. Nowhere does Clement refer to professional Christian priests. They did not exist yet.

Read chapter 40-44 again.

 

[francisdesales]

Wait a minute! Now I get it. Francisdesales wrote "I quoted the chapter title verbatim from Clement,"

Clement didn't write the chapter titles, where you found the word "priest." The chapter titles were added later (and someone did a very bad job of it). Clement himself did not refer to priests in his epistle.

I'm quoting Protestant sources, the version that interpreted the ECF volumes. Take it up with them. A careful reading of chapter 40-44 will show you they were correct, for the comparison between the Levitical class, a professional priesthood, and the description of a class of men who were oust from power for the purpose of offering sacrifice (the rightful order of things, according to Clement that continued into the New Covenant) was to be maintained. Is "Catholic priest" used? No. Can one find evidence for the existence of such men? Quite clearly.

You appear to be one of those people who must see the "WORD" in the book/letter/epistle to think anyone believed something or that something existed. I imagine you don't believe that "TRINITY" or "INCARNATION" was believed by any Christians until 100's of years later, since the words are not found in the Bible...

Apparently, Alexander the Great didn't exist in the 330 BC time frame because we have no extant literature written about him until hundreds of years after his death...

See where you logic leads? If it walks like a priest, talks like a priest, acts like a priest, it is a priest...

 

[Vince]

Has it occured to you that the people of 100 AD were in a better position to know what was "Scriptural" than you are???

Uhm, no. They were mostly poor readers and rarely possessed complete Bibles.

 

[francisdesales]

Has it occured to you that the people of 100 AD were in a better position to know what was "Scriptural" than you are???

Uhm, no. They were mostly poor readers and rarely possessed complete Bibles.

HA HA, you are a hoot.

what makes you think that the Bible explains itself without the people who wrote it to interpret it? I can write a very simple sentence with a variety of meanings, and unless I told you, you'd be clueless on the particular intent...

"I did not say you stole the money".

It can mean several different things, and unless I explain it immediately, or later, (written or orally) how would you know my intent? Someone would have to tell you who knew my intent!

I didn't say you stole the money, Fred said it.
I didn't say you stole the money, I implied it and someone figure it out.
I didn't say you stole the money, I said you borrowed the money.
I didn't say you stole the money, I said Fred stole it.
I didn't say you stole the money, I said you stole the car.

I got at least five different meanings out of that one sentence.

You keep on reading Scriptures without the Church that wrote it. Good luck if you think you can figure it out by yourself with the intent of the writers. Everywhere Christians disagree is another opportunity for YOU to be wrong...

Regards

 

[Vince]

Francisdesales, you've been telling people that the early writings teach the Catholic priesthood, and they do not. You've been telling people that the word "priest" appears in the early writings, and it does not.

It is time for you turn away from Catholicism and turn to Christ. Christ did not institute the Catholic priesthood. Nor did He institute prayers to dead saints, use of statures, the Rosary, worship of Mary, Purgatory, the Papacy, or the Sign of the Cross.

You need to turn away from these empty superstitions and turn to Him.

 

[francisdesales]

Francisdesales, you've been telling people that the early writings teach the Catholic priesthood, and they do not. You've been telling people that the word "priest" appears in the early writings, and it does not.

You are wrong on both accounts, I have shown in both instances that "priest" exists in the writings of Ignatius and Clement, refering to someone OTHER than the community as a whole. I have discussed what a priest does, which you have totally ignored. You merely denying it proves nothing. If the first Christians sacrificed and had only certain people able to conduct this sacrifice, we have priests. Ignatius calls the bishops "priests", especially by their action in the sanctuary - offering sacrifice. Clement compares the Levitical priesthood to the bishops and presbyters. The only thing missing is the WORD "priest"!!! It is perfectly clear priests existed in the New Covenant, at least as early as the turn of the century, and if we are to believe these men, even from the days of the Apostles.

It is only in your mind that there were no Catholic priests at the turn of the second century.

It is time for you turn away from Catholicism and turn to Christ. Christ did not institute the Catholic priesthood. Nor did He institute prayers to dead saints, use of statures, the Rosary, worship of Mary, Purgatory, the Papacy, or the Sign of the Cross.

There are many things Christ said that there is no written record. Obviously, you throw around "did not" without any evidence. What we have is the Apostles' actions and beliefs, taught to the bishops of the second century - who write that such practices date from the apostles. Thus, we have writings that tell us that "such and such" dates to the apostles, taught by Christ. Unless you have evidence to the contrary, we have to believe these implications, unless you also want to argue that the Scriptures themselves are not from God...

No one from Corinth writes back "Clement, what on earth are you talking about, there are no professional priests"??? Why do you compare bishops to the Levitical priesthood? Are you just inventing this stuff now???

Nope, as a matter of fact, the Corinthians considered Clement's work Sacred Scriptures and proclaimed it at their Eucharistic gatherings for nearly two hundred years after it was written and delivered, according to historians, vouching for the reality of the words within BY the Church at Corinth, the recipients. The acceptance at THIS level implies that the words within written by Clement were quite true on all levels, including a priesthood that the bishops participated in.

It's going to take a HECK of a lot more evidence than what you have given to prove otherwise... which is absolutely nothing...

You need to turn away from these empty superstitions and turn to Him.

You need to turn away from YOURSELF and your OWN opinions. History says "x", and whether I like it or not, if I am to follow Christ, I must drop previously held opinions. And thus, here I am, following Christ as the first Christians, recognizing Christ in the breaking of the bread and giving obedience to the bishop, who offers this pure and holy sacrifice everywhere (just as Malachi prophesized.)

I would urge you to read these readings, beginning to end, with an open mind. You'll learn a lot about Christianity and how you've been duped.

 

[Vince]

"The only thing missing is the WORD "priest"!!! "

Francisdesales, I am glad to see you acknowledging that the word "priest" does not appear anywhere in the writings of Clement or Ignatius. While we're on the subject, the words "Pope," "cardinal," and "archbishop" do not appear either.

Both men described a bishop as leading one church, with elders under him, and with deacons assisting them both. The Catholic Church practices no such system.

You need to turn from Catholicism, and turn to Christ.

 

[francisdesales]

"The only thing missing is the WORD "priest"!!! "

Francisdesales, I am glad to see you acknowledging that the word "priest" does not appear anywhere in the writings of Clement or Ignatius. While we're on the subject, the words "Pope," "cardinal," and "archbishop" do not appear either.

Maybe you can't read. Not only what I post, but what others write. I don't know. But the word appears several times in Clement's writings. I never said he didn't use the word. My focus is on what a priest does. Offer sacrifice for the sake of the community. Provide leadership and pastoral formation for the members of the community. If you were to describe to me what a priest was without mentioning the word "priest", I certainly would understand you are speaking of a priest...

Cardinal, pope and archbishop doesn't concern me. Trinity and Incarnation are not found in the Bible, but yet, they are two of our greatest beliefs. Remember, we don't hamstring ourselves with the false doctrine of sola scriptura.

Both men described a bishop as leading one church, with elders under him, and with deacons assisting them both. The Catholic Church practices no such system.

Like I said, you don't have a clue about what you are talking about... Better to remain quite and be thought of as possibly ignorant than open your mouth and let everyone know for sure...

 

[chestertonrules]

"The only thing missing is the WORD "priest"!!! "

Francisdesales, I am glad to see you acknowledging that the word "priest" does not appear anywhere in the writings of Clement or Ignatius. While we're on the subject, the words "Pope," "cardinal," and "archbishop" do not appear either.

Both men described a bishop as leading one church, with elders under him, and with deacons assisting them both. The Catholic Church practices no such system.

You need to turn from Catholicism, and turn to Christ.

It doesn't matter what you call them, it does matter that you acknowledge their God given authority:

"For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ of God? And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counselors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as…Anencletus and Clement to Peter?" Ignatius, To the Trallians, 7 (A.D. 110).

Since therefore I have, in the persons before mentioned, beheld the whole multitude of you in faith and love, I exhort you to study to do all things with a divine harmony, while your bishop presides in the place of God, and your presbyters in the place of the assembly of the apostles, along with your deacons, who are most dear to me, and are entrusted with the ministry of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed…Let nothing exist among you that may divide you ; but be ye united with your bishop, and those that preside over you, as a type and evidence of your immortality." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Magnesians, 6 (c. A.D. 110).

"And that you may be still more confident, that repenting thus truly there remains for you a sure hope of salvation, listen to a tale? Which is not a tale but a narrative, handed down and committed to the custody of memory, about the Apostle John. For when, on the tyrant's death, he returned to Ephesus from the isle of Patmos, he went away, being invited, to the contiguous territories of the nations, here to appoint bishops, there to set in order whole Churches, there to ordain such as were marked out by the Spirit. Having come to one of the cities not far off (the name of which some give), and having put the brethren to rest in other matters, at last, looking to the bishop appointed, and seeing a youth, powerful in body, comely in appearance, and ardent, said, 'This (youth) I commit to you in all earnestness, in the presence of the Church, and with Christ as witness.' And on his accepting and promising all, he gave the same injunction and testimony." Clement of Alexandria, Who is the rich man that shall be saved?, 42 (A.D. 210).


"And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, 'I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.'... Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry...For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties."

If, however, any shall disobey the words spoken by Him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and serious danger;

Pope Clement, Epistle to Corinthians,(A.D. 98).

 

[francisdesales]

"The only thing missing is the WORD "priest"!!! "

Francisdesales, I am glad to see you acknowledging that the word "priest" does not appear anywhere in the writings of Clement or Ignatius. While we're on the subject, the words "Pope," "cardinal," and "archbishop" do not appear either.

Both men described a bishop as leading one church, with elders under him, and with deacons assisting them both. The Catholic Church practices no such system.

You need to turn from Catholicism, and turn to Christ.

It doesn't matter what you call them, it does matter that you acknowledge their God given authority:

"For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ of God? And what is the presbytery but a sacred assembly, the counselors and assessors of the bishop? And what are the deacons but imitators of the angelic powers, fulfilling a pure and blameless ministry unto him, as…Anencletus and Clement to Peter?" Ignatius, To the Trallians, 7 (A.D. 110).

Since therefore I have, in the persons before mentioned, beheld the whole multitude of you in faith and love, I exhort you to study to do all things with a divine harmony, while your bishop presides in the place of God, and your presbyters in the place of the assembly of the apostles, along with your deacons, who are most dear to me, and are entrusted with the ministry of Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before the beginning of time, and in the end was revealed…Let nothing exist among you that may divide you ; but be ye united with your bishop, and those that preside over you, as a type and evidence of your immortality." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Magnesians, 6 (c. A.D. 110).

"And that you may be still more confident, that repenting thus truly there remains for you a sure hope of salvation, listen to a tale? Which is not a tale but a narrative, handed down and committed to the custody of memory, about the Apostle John. For when, on the tyrant's death, he returned to Ephesus from the isle of Patmos, he went away, being invited, to the contiguous territories of the nations, here to appoint bishops, there to set in order whole Churches, there to ordain such as were marked out by the Spirit. Having come to one of the cities not far off (the name of which some give), and having put the brethren to rest in other matters, at last, looking to the bishop appointed, and seeing a youth, powerful in body, comely in appearance, and ardent, said, 'This (youth) I commit to you in all earnestness, in the presence of the Church, and with Christ as witness.' And on his accepting and promising all, he gave the same injunction and testimony." Clement of Alexandria, Who is the rich man that shall be saved?, 42 (A.D. 210).


"And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, 'I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.'... Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry...For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties."

If, however, any shall disobey the words spoken by Him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and serious danger;

Pope Clement, Epistle to Corinthians,(A.D. 98).

I'm wondering when we'll receive a post from such a Bishop that relates that we can ignore this God-given authority from now on and do whatever we feel like, believe whatever we want, and still call ourselves part of the Body of Christ...

Regards

 

[Vince]

Francisdesales, NOWHERE does the Bible grant a bishop the authority you refer to.

God tells us that all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags in His sight. Neither we, nor the dead sinners you pray to, are good enough to earn salvation. Eternal life is a gift from God, offered to all men, and everyone is both invited and commanded to accept that gift by faith.

You need to turn from the empty man-made rituals of Catholicism and accept Christ as your Savior. Not as your helper, to help you get to Heaven, but as your Savior.

 

[francisdesales]

double post

 

[francisdesales]

Francisdesales, NOWHERE does the Bible grant a bishop the authority you refer to.

Read the Pastorals... Chapter one of Titus and Chapter one of One Timothy. WHY does Paul leave Timothy and Titus in their respective cities...

Stop with the "nowhere" already. We've already shown that you use this word much too freely without thought - for example, the word "priest" NEVER appears in Clement's writing... A second grader can prove you wrong.

God tells us that all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags in His sight.

The most mis-used and mis-interpreted words of the Bible, leading millions of Christians to a false gospel... Hey, that's your problem if you consider yourself a pile of filthy rags...

Jesus says that if YOUR righteousness (not His) does not exceed the Pharisees, you won't enter the Kingdom. Away with your false teachings...

Neither we, nor the dead sinners you pray to, are good enough to earn salvation.

Don't put words in my mouth. Never have I implied any such idiotic notion.

Eternal life is a gift from God, offered to all men, and everyone is both invited and commanded to accept that gift by faith.

Have I said otherwise anywhere here???

You need to turn from the empty man-made rituals of Catholicism and accept Christ as your Savior. Not as your helper, to help you get to Heaven, but as your Savior.

Yawn...

You need to read what other people write, whether it is me, the bible or other Christian writers... from your posts, I gather you are clueless on the meaning of any ritual of Christianity, some of which derives from before Jesus took on flesh. Also, you can't seem to understand basic notions found in Scriptures or in the writings of early Christians. You are just mimicing the usual cliches without any knowledge of what you are talking about. I tire of it...

As such, I'll end this conversation here, this isn't going anywhere. Rather than analyzing the topic, it has gotten down the stock cliches that make me feel sorry for what you refuse to accept from God...

Perhaps in a few years, God will open your mind.

Adios

 

[A-Christian]

Also, you can't seem to understand basic notions found in Scriptures or in the writings of early Christians. You are just mimicing the usual cliches without any knowledge of what you are talking about. I tire of it...

Business as usual I see.
And they say Catholics are parrots.

 

[chestertonrules]

Francisdesales, NOWHERE does the Bible grant a bishop the authority you refer to.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Acts 20 17From Miletus, Paul sent to Ephesus for the elders of the church. 18When they arrived, he said to them:...
28Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.


Titus 1
7For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God;

James 5
14Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

1 Tim 3
1This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

8Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

Acts 15
23With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. 24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.

 

[francisdesales]

Francisdesales, NOWHERE does the Bible grant a bishop the authority you refer to.

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Acts 20 17From Miletus, Paul sent to Ephesus for the elders of the church. 18When they arrived, he said to them:...
28Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.


Titus 1
7For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God;

James 5
14Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

1 Tim 3
1This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

8Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

Acts 15
23With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. 24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.

Chestertonrules,

I think we have already established that Vince uses extreme words too often.... The "NEVER"s are proving to be "no comment". Makes you wonder. This is why I have stopped addressing him..

Regards