Can you remit sins , John 20:19-23 ????

[francisdesales]

Elders are "ordained"....not as priests specifically, but as leaders in the church assembly. Individual believers (ordinary Christians) are priests that can come boldly before the throne. We have no need for any man to mediate between us and God. God calls all members of the body to certain gifts...not all are teachers or pastors or evangelists, but we are all members of the same body. Christ is our high priest. There are no apostles as the 12 were....now were given gifts by the Holy Spirit.

I think if you understood Christ's "do this in rememberance of me" as a command to continue to make available to the Church the precious Body of Christ in the Eucharistic elements, you would naturally see the need for a ministrial priesthood that would stand as Christ's representative, offering Himself with the community to the Father in heaven - thus, "THIS IS MY BODY" by the priest at every Mass.

The Church is given a number of ministries, as per Ephesians and 1 Corinthians.

Regards

 

[Vince]

"Only those ordained as the successors to the apostles are successors." The phrase "successor to the apostles" does not appear anywhere in Scripture.

"Unless you have hand laid on you by a successor of the apostles, then you are to be a follower, not a leader." There is no such teaching in Scripture.

 

[chestertonrules]

"Only those ordained as the successors to the apostles are successors." The phrase "successor to the apostles" does not appear anywhere in Scripture.

"Unless you have hand laid on you by a successor of the apostles, then you are to be a follower, not a leader." There is no such teaching in Scripture.

I disagree.

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."

Luke 10:16
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

Acts 13
2While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." 3So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off.

2 Tim 2
1You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others.

Acts 15
22Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, two men who were leaders among the brothers. 23With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. 24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said

1 John 4:6
6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

1 Thes 5
12Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who work hard among you, who are over you in the Lord and who admonish you. 13Hold them in the highest regard in love because of their work. Live in peace with each other.

Acts 1
20"For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms,
" 'May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,' and,
" 'May another take his place of leadership.' 21Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection."



Here's a letter from Clement of Rome to the Corinthians explaining the process as handed on by the apostles:

"And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus saith the Scripture a certain place, 'I will appoint their bishops s in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.'... Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry...For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties." Pope Clement, Epistle to Corinthians, 42, 44 (A.D. 98).

 

[glorydaz]

"Only those ordained as the successors to the apostles are successors." The phrase "successor to the apostles" does not appear anywhere in Scripture.

"Unless you have hand laid on you by a successor of the apostles, then you are to be a follower, not a leader." There is no such teaching in Scripture.

You're right, Vince. There is no scriptural basis for either.

The body is the household of God...built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Jesus as the chief cornerstone. The Word does not speak of successors to the apostles because once the foundation is built the building goes up. There are no followers or leaders in the body of Christ.

Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

 

[glorydaz]

Church structure pertains to individual assemblies of believers, and the affairs of the assembly.
There are elders and deacons as overseerers. They are there to serve as examples.

1The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.

As believers, we have one master...Christ.

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Elders aren't priests anymore than all believers are...we are a priesthood of believers.
Elders and bishops are the same thing.

And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

Ordain and appoint used interchangeably.

5For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: 6If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. 7For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

The reason for having elders is their maturity and godly lives will keep the wolves at bay...
That is the body ministry....churches have erred in going to a one-man led assembly.

Acts 20:17...And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.

Acts 20:28-30...28Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

The laying on of hands is a commission or appointment...we do the same when we anoint a sick person with oil. It's an outward sign like baptism...not a conferring of some special power but a blessing where two or more join in agreement.

 

[glorydaz]

Elders are "ordained"....not as priests specifically, but as leaders in the church assembly. Individual believers (ordinary Christians) are priests that can come boldly before the throne. We have no need for any man to mediate between us and God. God calls all members of the body to certain gifts...not all are teachers or pastors or evangelists, but we are all members of the same body. Christ is our high priest. There are no apostles as the 12 were....now were given gifts by the Holy Spirit.

I think if you understood Christ's "do this in rememberance of me" as a command to continue to make available to the Church the precious Body of Christ in the Eucharistic elements, you would naturally see the need for a ministrial priesthood that would stand as Christ's representative, offering Himself with the community to the Father in heaven - thus, "THIS IS MY BODY" by the priest at every Mass.

The Church is given a number of ministries, as per Ephesians and 1 Corinthians.

Regards

I'm certainly not going to argue with you about communion, brother.

I, too, partake of the Lord's supper in rememberance of His body and blood...but since I believe in the priesthood of the believer, we all partake without needing a priest as Christ's representative.

 

[Vince]

Nowhere in the Bible are elders called priests.

 

[chestertonrules]

Nowhere in the Bible are elders called priests.

PRIEST:



This word (etymologically "elder", from presbyteros, presbyter) has taken the meaning of "sacerdos", from which no substantive has been formed in various modern languages (English, French, German). The priest is the minister of Divine worship, and especially of the highest act of worship, sacrifice. In this sense, every religion has its priests, exercising more or less exalted sacerdotal functions as intermediaries between man and the Divinity (cf. Hebrews 5:1: "for every high priest taken from among men, is ordained for men in the things that appertain to God, that he may offer up gifts and sacrifices for sins"). In various ages and countries we find numerous and important differences: the priest properly so called may be assisted by inferior ministers of many kinds; he may belong to a special class or caste, to a clergy, or else may be like other citizens except in what concerns his sacerdotal functions; he may be a member of a hierarchy, or, on the contrary, may exercise an independent priesthood (e.g. Melchisedech, Hebrews 7:1-33); lastly, the methods of recruiting the ministers of worship, the rites by which they receive their powers, the authority that establishes them, may all differ. But, amid all these accidental differences, one fundamental idea is common to all religions: the priest is the person authoritatively appointed to do homage to God in the name of society, even the primitive society of the family (cf. Job 1:5), and to offer Him sacrifice (in the broad, but especially in the strict sense of the word). Omitting further discussion of the general idea of the priesthood, and neglecting all reference to pagan worship, we may call attention to the organization among the people of God of a Divine service with ministers properly so-called: the priests, the inferior clergy, the Levites, and at their head the high-priest. We know the detailed regulations contained in Leviticus as to the different sacrifices offered to God in the Temple at Jerusalem, and the character and duty of the priests and Levites. Their ranks were recruited, in virtue not of the free choice of individuals, but of descent in the tribe of Levi (especially the family of Aaron), which had been called by God to His ritual service to the exclusion of all others. The elders (presbyteroi) formed a kind of council, but had no sacerdotal power; it was they who took counsel with the chief priests to capture Jesus (Matthew 26:3). It is this name presbyter (elder) which has passed into the Christian speech to signify the minister of Divine service, the priest.

 

[francisdesales]

Nowhere in the Bible are elders called priests.

What does "presbyteros" in Greek mean???

Some Bibles interpret "elders" as "presbyters" in English, which is where "priests" come from.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

I think if you understood Christ's "do this in rememberance of me" as a command to continue to make available to the Church the precious Body of Christ in the Eucharistic elements, you would naturally see the need for a ministrial priesthood that would stand as Christ's representative, offering Himself with the community to the Father in heaven - thus, "THIS IS MY BODY" by the priest at every Mass.

The Church is given a number of ministries, as per Ephesians and 1 Corinthians.

Regards

I'm certainly not going to argue with you about communion, brother.

I, too, partake of the Lord's supper in rememberance of His body and blood...but since I believe in the priesthood of the believer, we all partake without needing a priest as Christ's representative.

The priest, or more properly, the bishop, was the guarantor that the Eucharist Itself was validly the Body and Blood of Christ, even in the days of Ignatius of Antioch, 110 AD.

I don't want to argue, Glory, I am just giving you the reasoning for our beliefs, which date back to the first and second century... Doesn't that give you cause to wonder?


Regards

 

[glorydaz]

The priest, or more properly, the bishop, was the guarantor that the Eucharist Itself was validly the Body and Blood of Christ, even in the days of Ignatius of Antioch, 110 AD.

I don't want to argue, Glory, I am just giving you the reasoning for our beliefs, which date back to the first and second century... Doesn't that give you cause to wonder?


Regards

I understand....I was a Catholic and went to Catholic school.
I respect what you believe, but I see it otherwise.

Not being an essential for salvation, I'm confident one day we'll see eye to eye concerning all things. :amen

 

[unknown2me]

Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

The Spirit that lives in me has this Power and Authority. I have seen this Scripture of Truth fulfilled many times and saw with my own two eyes the evidence of it come to pass...So therefore I can say of a Truth... This Scripture of Truth can be fulfilled today.

 

[chestertonrules]

Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

The Spirit that lives in me has this Power and Authority. I have seen this Scripture of Truth fulfilled many times and saw with my own two eyes the evidence of it come to pass...So therefore I can say of a Truth... This Scripture of Truth can be fulfilled today.

Jesus wasn't speaking to you, he was speaking to the apostle.

 

[Vince]

"The priest, or more properly, the bishop, was the guarantor that the Eucharist Itself was validly the Body and Blood of Christ, even in the days of Ignatius of Antioch, 110 AD."

There is no Scriptural justification for this practice. There is also a lot of doubt about the accuracy of the statement. A liturgical priesthood developed slowly within professed Christianity, as pagan customs were blended in, but it wasn't that powerful in 110 AD. Early post-Biblical writings refer to bishops, elders, and deacons, but not to priests.

 

[westtexas]

Jesus wasn't speaking to you, he was speaking to the apostle.

Let me ask you a question please, my friend. I understand the Catholic Churches belief that St. Peter was the first pope and I understand your stance on this verse. With this in mind, where does scripture say that the successors of St. Peter would also forgive sins and also where does scripture say that it is necessary to go to these men instead of directly to God for the forgiveness of sin?
Westtexas

 

[Geo]

John 20:22  And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

men's dogma says you can inherit that by church tradition. That's nonsense. Only by the Holy Spirit is anybody qualified. And NOT by ourselves. We do NOT command the Holy Spirit. So who is it that finally forgives sins? ONLY God.

 

[ronniechoate34]

This power was given to the apostles and their successors, ie. priest of the Church.

That's not true. How could men ever forgive sins when that power has always been reserved for God? Maybe I don't understand you very well. I do know that these men had the power to heal the sick and even raise the dead. But they weren't the Father or The Son.

 

[chestertonrules]

Jesus wasn't speaking to you, he was speaking to the apostle.

Let me ask you a question please, my friend. I understand the Catholic Churches belief that St. Peter was the first pope and I understand your stance on this verse. With this in mind, where does scripture say that the successors of St. Peter would also forgive sins and also where does scripture say that it is necessary to go to these men instead of directly to God for the forgiveness of sin?
Westtexas

Jesus told his apostles that As the Father sent me, I am sending you.

Jesus appointed the apostles to start his Church and spread the message of the gospel around the world.

What makes you think they wouldn't appoint successors. We know that they chose Mathias to replace Judas. We also know that Paul was accepted as an apostle.

FYI:

John 20
23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

 

[chestertonrules]

This power was given to the apostles and their successors, ie. priest of the Church.

That's not true. How could men ever forgive sins when that power has always been reserved for God? Maybe I don't understand you very well. I do know that these men had the power to heal the sick and even raise the dead. But they weren't the Father or The Son.

John 20
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

Matt 18
17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

 

[westtexas]

What makes you think they wouldn't appoint successors. We know that they chose Mathias to replace Judas. We also know that Paul was accepted as an apostle.

FYI:

John 20
23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

My question was not if the apostles appointed successors or not. We will assume that the apostles have been given the authority to forgive sin as you state. My questions were where in scripture does it state that these successors were given the same authority as the apostles and also where in scripture does it state that we (as sinners) are told to go these men and not directly to God for the forgiveness of our sins. I believe that we can go directly to our God and have our sins forgiven, however, I respect your view and am not trying to argue. I'm just curious where in scripture this doctrine comes from.
Westtexas