Catholic Propaganda Calling Christians False Christians

[Klee shay]

continue in the joy of your salvation

Thanks, it is a joy. I would be lost without Jesus. I pray for people to see him through the gift of the holy spirit because that is the only distinction between deception and truth we have today

People can still be deceived even if they do possess the Holy Spirit, however it's just another reminder to struggle against the flesh. Or more accurately, to call upon Christ to carry us through and make intercessions.

I wish more people could see the joy of Christ and the reflection of our Father's goodness through the salvation he offered. Rather than regulation. There is no law Christ has not put an end to. There is NO LAW, so therefore we must understand Christ through freedom.

He gave it so why do we refuse it sometimes? I guess that is why we must pray for each other a lot; and encourage each other towards Christ even if we don't get every little detail. After all, we weren't meant to know God, just to seek him. :wink:

God bless.

 

[TheScarletPimpernel]

Catholic doctrine fails to make my skin crawl. It also fails to convince me that the Catholic Church as instituted by Rome is the Church that Jesus Christ instituted. I'm not even bothered by what Roman Catholic doctrine asserts and I am hardly even bothered by that there are millions of sheep who simply swallow the whole thing lock stock and barrel and hardly ever read or question or examine scripture or themselves for themselves. I realise now that this emotion is simply one distraction that satan uses to keep me from following my own faith.

I'm not bothered by anyone's doctrine! I don't care if they are bigger churches than me, wealthier, with more converts, more power, more knowledge, more history, more traditions, more culture. Actually I don't care who you are or what you say you belong to. It's your problem! I quit worrying a darn noodle what other people believe and now I am a happy man. Oh what bliss! The weight of the world is on my shoulders no more. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, and I wish the top 'o the morning to you!

 

[Klee shay]

Catholic doctrine fails to make my skin crawl.

Seeing people in bondage in the name of the Lord makes my skin crawl because I know there is a better way to love him. Catholic doctrine or otherwise - religion enslaves man to obey under law. It does not inspire love except through bondage to law. We were not meant to be in bondage to Christ.

I can see what you're saying in your post and I agree for the most part.

The weight of the world is on my shoulders no more.

As it should be in the freedom of the Lord. I'm glad you've discovered it. God bless.

 

[CatholicXian]

Because one Catholic site with articles written by lay Catholics are the speaking authority of the Church...? :roll:

CCC 818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers .... All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

Protestant Christians (and Orthodox Christians) are separated brethren. They are Christian by their common faith in Christ and Trinitarian baptism, but separated because they lack the fullness of Truth found in the Church which Christ established in the Gospel.

CCC 855 "The Church's mission stimulates efforts towards Christian unity. Indeed, "divisions among Christians prevent the Church from realizing in practice the fullness of catholicity proper to her in those of her sons who, though joined to her by Baptism, are yet separated from full communion with her."

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Because one Catholic site with articles written by lay Catholics are the speaking authority of the Church...? :roll:

CCC 818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers .... All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

Protestant Christians (and Orthodox Christians) are separated brethren. They are Christian by their common faith in Christ and Trinitarian baptism, but separated because they lack the fullness of Truth found in the Church which Christ established in the Gospel.

CCC 855 "The Church's mission stimulates efforts towards Christian unity. Indeed, "divisions among Christians prevent the Church from realizing in practice the fullness of catholicity proper to her in those of her sons who, though joined to her by Baptism, are yet separated from full communion with her."

I've run into this same gambit over in the "Final Authority" thread. Essentially, the strategy is to find some quote somewhere to contradict the stated position of the Church. As you are no doubt aware, we (by and large) take the same position as does th Catholic Church- namely, we view Catholics as separated brethren, and us with the fulness of truth. We do not deny the possibility of salvation outside of the Ark of the Church, we just don't advise crossing the ocean in a raft.

The thing that strikes me as fascinating is how certain Protestants take offense at being excluded from what is called the Church EVEN as they lambaste the Catholics and exclude them from the Church. Lack of self-insight? Hypocrisy? I don't know, but it all seems so cognitively dissonant when one reads their screeds.

 

[Solo]

Here are the words of priests and Bishops who oversee the Laity of the Roman Catholic Church. They proclaim that salvation exists only within the walls of the RCC.

There is only one true God. He took flesh and became man only once. When man, He founded only one religion and one Church, the Roman Catholic Religion and the Roman Catholic Church.

A Catechism Of The Bible
By Rev. John O'Brien, M.A.
New York 1924
Revised and enlarged by
Fr. Jaime Pazat De Lys, F.S.S.P.X
St. Mary's, Kansas 1997
http://www.drbo.org/catechism.htm

The following sermon is as relevant today as it was over 100 years ago when it was first preached by Father Arnold Damen, S.J. This message was and still is a challenge to the many who pride themselves as being "Bible-and-Bible-alone Christians."

One cannot have God for his Father, who will not have the Church for his Mother, and likewise, one cannot have the Word of God for his faith who will not have the Church for his teacher. It is the infallible teaching authority of the Church, as promised by Christ, which alone preserves God's Word from erroneous interpretation. This is the essence of Fr. Damen's sermon.

The Church Or The Bible
by Fr. Arnold Damen, S.J. (1815 - 1890)
http://www.drbo.org/church.htm

I have said, outside of the Catholic Church there is no divine faith. Some of the Protestant friends will be shocked at this, to hear me say that outside of the Catholic Church there is no divine faith, and that without faith there is no salvation, but damnation. I will prove all I have said.

I have said that outside of the Catholic Church there can be no divine faith. What is divine faith? When we believe a thing upon the authority of God, and believe it without doubt, without hesitating. Now, all our separated brethren outside of the Catholic Church take the private interpretation of the Bible for their guide, but the private interpretation of the Bible can never give them divine faith.

The One True Church
by Fr. Arnold Damen, S.J. (1815 - 1890)
Imprimatur: Michael Augustine, Archbishop of New York
http://www.drbo.org/church2.htm

But there are other reasons still, why Protestants cannot be saved. Jesus Christ says: "Except you eat the Flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, you shall not have life in you." (John 6: 54.) Now, Protestants do not receive the Body of Our Lord, because their ministers are not priests, and consequently have no power from Jesus Christ to say Mass, in which, by the words of consecration, bread and wine are changed into the Body and Blood of Christ. It follows, then, clearly that they will not enter into life everlasting, and deservedly so, because they abolished the holy Sacrifice of the Mass; and by abolishing that great Sacrifice they robbed God the Father of the infinite honour which Jesus Christ renders Him therein, and themselves of all the blessings which Jesus Christ bestows upon those who assist at this holy Sacrifice with faith and devotion: "Wherefore the sin of the young men (the sons of Heli) was exceeding great before the Lord, because they withdrew men from the sacrifice of the Lord." (1 Kings 2:17.) Now, God the Father cannot admit into Heaven these robbers of His infinite honour; because if those are damned who steal the temporal goods of their neighbour, how much more will those be damned who deprive God of His infinite honour, and their fellow-men of the infinite spiritual blessings of the Mass !

The Church and Her Enemies
by Father Michael Mueller C.SS.R.
http://www.drbo.org/churchenemies.htm

"A church which is not one in its doctrine and faith can never be the True Church ... Hence, because truth must be one, of all the different churches ... only one can be the true one ... and out of that Church there is no salvation. Now, in order to determine which is this one true Church ... it is necessary to examine which is the Church first founded by Jesus Christ, for, when this is ascertained, it must be confessed that this one alone is the true Church which, having once been the true Church must always have been the true Church and must forever be the true Church. For to this first Church has been made the promise of the Savior that the gates of Hell would never be able to overturn it (Matthew 16:18) ... In the entire history of religion, we find that the Roman Catholic Church alone was the first Church, and that the other false and heretical churches afterwards departed and separated from her. This is the Church which was propagated by the Apostles and afterwards governed by pastors whom the Apostles themselves appointed to rule over her ... This character can be found only in the Roman Church, whose pastors descend securely by an uninterrupted and legitimate succession from the Apostles of the world (Matthew 28:20)

Against the Reformers
St Alphonsus Mary De Liguori (1696-1787)
Bishop and Doctor of the Church
http://www.drbo.org/againstreformers.htm

Here is a site review of the website where these articles are posted. The review is by Catholic Culture. NOTE that the authors are not the Laity of the RCC but are Priests, Bishops, and Doctors of the RCC. The Laity on this board would have you believe a different truth about the Roman Catholic Apostate Religion, but those with the power of the pope speaks loudly. It must also be declared that not all Bible believers are part of the RCC label protestants. My Church has existed since John the Baptist began baptizing as he proclaimed the Lamb of God. The Roman Catholic Church didn't exist until after 313 AD. My Church bypassed all of the paganistic garbage that the RCC swallowed and continues to teach.




Site Review for
Douay Rheims Bible Online
http://www.catholicculture.org/sites/si ... ecnum=1708

RATINGS
Fidelity: CAUTION || Resources: Good || Useability: Excellent
First Evaluated: 06/08/04 Last Updated: 06/02/05

 

[CatholicXian]

Solo...

the catholicculture.org review clinches it. the site you are using to find these "testimonies" come from schismatic churches... churches claiming to be the Catholic Church. The biggest disagreement with schismatic churches (other than liturgy) is the interpretation of Extra Exclessiam Nulla Salus--"no salvation outside the Church". If one reads the document in which that statement was proclaimed it becomes clear that the Church does not reject the possibility of salvation of non-Catholics... the declaration merely declares that no one is saved outside of the Body of Christ, which is the Church.

 

[Klee shay]

the declaration merely declares that no one is saved outside of the Body of Christ, which is the Church.

I agree with the statement that no-one is saved outside the Body of Christ which is his Church.

However...the Lord's church bares no name and no doctrine.

 

[CatholicXian]

the declaration merely declares that no one is saved outside of the Body of Christ, which is the Church.

I agree with the statement that no-one is saved outside the Body of Christ which is his Church.

However...the Lord's church bares no name and no doctrine.

The Church has both visible, and invisible aspects. What Orthodox Christian said above (only excepting the bits about Catholic v. Orthodox would be switched ;-) --no offence, James!)... we don't deny that there is Salvation outside the visible structure of the Church (God sees things which we cannot), but being "outside" the visible Church, so to speak, is not the advised path--it's unsure, and dangerous, to be sure.

 

[Klee shay]

we don't deny that there is Salvation outside the visible structure of the Church (God sees things which we cannot), but being "outside" the visible Church, so to speak, is not the advised path--it's unsure, and dangerous, to be sure.

Yes it can be dangerous and an unsure path I agree - but with Christ in charge of the journey the enemy cannot remove the believer away from the invisible Body of Christ.

 

[Solo]

Solo...

the catholicculture.org review clinches it. the site you are using to find these "testimonies" come from schismatic churches... churches claiming to be the Catholic Church. The biggest disagreement with schismatic churches (other than liturgy) is the interpretation of Extra Exclessiam Nulla Salus--"no salvation outside the Church". If one reads the document in which that statement was proclaimed it becomes clear that the Church does not reject the possibility of salvation of non-Catholics... the declaration merely declares that no one is saved outside of the Body of Christ, which is the Church.

The ratings that the website received were Good for Resources and Excellent for Useability, but since you disagree that these Roman Catholic Priests and Bishops (and Pope Leo) have any sway in the real Catholic Church, let's look at the most recent Roman Catholic Catechism which was printed in English in 1994.

FULLNESS OF SALVATION ONLY THROUGH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."

846 Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation ... thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

ALL GRACE COMES THROUGH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

819 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."

834 Particular Churches are fully catholic through their communion with one of them, the Church of Rome "which presides in charity." "For with this church, by reason of its pre-eminence, the whole Church, that is the faithful everywhere, must necessarily be in accord" (St. Irenaeus, Adv. Haeres, 3,3,2:pg7/1,849; cf. Vatican Council I: DS 3057).

NO CHRISTIAN UNITY APART FROM THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

820 Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose ... The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

the declaration merely declares that no one is saved outside of the Body of Christ, which is the Church.

I agree with the statement that no-one is saved outside the Body of Christ which is his Church.

However...the Lord's church bares no name and no doctrine.

Funny, seems to me that Jesus specifically commanded the Apostles to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all He commanded.

That sounds like doctrine up front and doctrine alluded to.

As for no name- denominational names have arisen by necessity, so that one might understand what doctrine is being taught. Despite your assurances, sound doctrine is of inestimable value.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Solo...

the catholicculture.org review clinches it. the site you are using to find these "testimonies" come from schismatic churches... churches claiming to be the Catholic Church. The biggest disagreement with schismatic churches (other than liturgy) is the interpretation of Extra Exclessiam Nulla Salus--"no salvation outside the Church". If one reads the document in which that statement was proclaimed it becomes clear that the Church does not reject the possibility of salvation of non-Catholics... the declaration merely declares that no one is saved outside of the Body of Christ, which is the Church.

The ratings that the website received were Good for Resources and Excellent for Useability, but since you disagree that these Roman Catholic Priests and Bishops (and Pope Leo) have any sway in the real Catholic Church, let's look at the most recent Roman Catholic Catechism which was printed in English in 1994.

FULLNESS OF SALVATION ONLY THROUGH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."

846 Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation ... thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

ALL GRACE COMES THROUGH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

819 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."

834 Particular Churches are fully catholic through their communion with one of them, the Church of Rome "which presides in charity." "For with this church, by reason of its pre-eminence, the whole Church, that is the faithful everywhere, must necessarily be in accord" (St. Irenaeus, Adv. Haeres, 3,3,2:pg7/1,849; cf. Vatican Council I: DS 3057).

NO CHRISTIAN UNITY APART FROM THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

820 Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose ... The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.

I just wonder why it would bother someone who thinks the Catholic Church is in error that Catholics would think this someone is in error?

 

[Solo]

When you begin your spiritual journey in truth, instead of man's traditions, you will begin to understand as the Spirit gives you understanding of false doctrines, doctrines of devils, lies, and religiosity of man instead of sanctification of the Spirit of God, and the truth from the Word of God.

 

[Klee shay]

Funny, seems to me that Jesus specifically commanded the Apostles to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all He commanded.

That sounds like doctrine up front and doctrine alluded to.

"Alluded to?" Do you honeslty think Christ talked in riddles?

Can you show me the scriptures where Christ said to make disciples of all nations? By my recollection he said to preach His message to all nations. Maybe he said disciple...it's something I do not recall though?

And where did he say to teach them TO OBEY? He said those that love me will obey my commands...that doesn't sound like a request to teach people to obey though. It sounds like a plea to be loved by man first, before any choice to obey is made.

As for no name- denominational names have arisen by necessity, so that one might understand what doctrine is being taught. Despite your assurances, sound doctrine is of inestimable value.

When did man's necessity change what Christ said was His church? Necessity may require it for man's comfortable understanding of heirachy and social classes - but Christ never cared for such things himself, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Klee shay]

One more thing...if the twelve apostles where the Lord's chosen...why did they not go around naming a church of the Lord's?

 

[Orthodox Christian]

When you begin your spiritual journey in truth, instead of man's traditions, you will begin to understand as the Spirit gives you understanding of false doctrines, doctrines of devils, lies, and religiosity of man instead of sanctification of the Spirit of God, and the truth from the Word of God.

That's a non-answer and a cheesy personal attack. Why do you avoid the point I made, and attack me with your assessment of my spiritual walk?
It wouldn't be because you don't have a good answer, would it?

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Funny, seems to me that Jesus specifically commanded the Apostles to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all He commanded.

That sounds like doctrine up front and doctrine alluded to.

"Alluded to?" Do you honeslty think Christ talked in riddles?
Yes, they're typically known as parables. But when I say "alluded to," this does not infer a riddle. Rather, the fulness of what He taught them is not in that very place spelled out. Ergo, alluded to.

Can you show me the scriptures where Christ said to make disciples of all nations? By my recollection he said to preach His message to all nations. Maybe he said disciple...it's something I do not recall though?
Quite alright, read
Matthew 28:19
In Greek, it reads poreuthetes oun matheteusate panta ta ethni
which translates Go forth then, (make) disciples (of) all the nations.
And where did he say to teach them TO OBEY? He said those that love me will obey my commands...that doesn't sound like a request to teach people to obey though. It sounds like a plea to be loved by man first, before any choice to obey is made.
Matthew 28:20
[quote:abe81]and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Love is the only real motivator to obey the commands- in this you spoke correctly. But make no mistake- Christ commissioned the Apostles to teach people that, for example, forgiving is not an option, but an imperative.

As for no name- denominational names have arisen by necessity, so that one might understand what doctrine is being taught. Despite your assurances, sound doctrine is of inestimable value.

When did man's necessity change what Christ said was His church? Necessity may require it for man's comfortable understanding of heirachy and social classes - but Christ never cared for such things himself, wouldn't you agree?[/quote:abe81]
The Church had no denominational name until some length of time after the Great schism between East and West. I believe the Eastern Orthodox Churches began being called such in the 15th century, to distinguish the Eastern churches from those who were loyal to Rome. Denominations are a testimony, a sad testimony, to the fact of schismation.

Christ's prayer for all of His people to be One stands as spoken and as written. And so shall it be- but as for today, the wide gulf of doctrine and practice between churches stands no matter what they are or aren't called. Jesus did call and appoint and give authority to Twelve. His command to them was to not 'lord it over' those in their charge. The scriptures bear witness to continued authority in the Church among Elders (presvyteros and episkopos) and deacons (diakonos). All Churches have authority figures, but how they receive and received authority is quite distinctive. As a result of said authority, various churches teach various doctrines- some quite unacceptable to others. I find the Pentecostal doctrine that one must speak in tongues to be saved quite unacceptable. I find the notion that the Eucharist is a symbol as unacceptable, also. I find the Oneness doctrine unacceptable. Each of these groups reject the two churches with roots back to the beginning.

I'm not entirely sure of how these things will be solved, but I am sure it isn't by simply ignoring the differences- nor tolerating that which is intolerable. We love homosexuals, and wish to have them worship with us- but we will not have sexually active homosexuals leading our churches, nor will we bless the unions between homosexuals. That is but one example of what separates.

James

 

[Heidi]

Paul tells us who is a false Christian and who is not. "For if anyone comes to you and preaches a different Jesus other than we preached, or a spirit other than the one you received, or a gospel other than the one you received, you put up with it easily enough...For such men are false apostles, deceitful workemn masquerading as angels of light." What part of that do the catholics not understand? :o

 

[Solo]

When you begin your spiritual journey in truth, instead of man's traditions, you will begin to understand as the Spirit gives you understanding of false doctrines, doctrines of devils, lies, and religiosity of man instead of sanctification of the Spirit of God, and the truth from the Word of God.

That's a non-answer and a cheesy personal attack. Why do you avoid the point I made, and attack me with your assessment of my spiritual walk?
It wouldn't be because you don't have a good answer, would it?

Why would you call my statement of fact a "cheesy attack"? I am calling your stance exactly as you portray it. I would hope that you come out of your bondage and become born of the Holy Spirit so that we can be brothers in Christ.